the testing policies that we that, the testing policies that we put in place adult social care were essentially based on clinical advice of what tests would be reliable and effective, combined with the operation advice of how many tests were available. so for instance, there was a discussion on the 14th of april, when clinical advice for the first time said, yes, you can test asymptomatic people and a negative test will be reliable, really important. but then we combine that with the operational advice as to how many tests were available by that stage, around 35,000. and you can see, for instance, that then the clinical advises in this case the cmo, came back and then signed off on, issued new advice as to what the policy should be for testing.

so the testing rules, who got the tests, what the policy was and what order of priority we use tests in was based on clinical advice throughout. ml was based on clinical advice throughout.— was based on clinical advice throughout. all right, that is understood _ throughout. all right, that is understood and _ throughout. all right, that is understood and nobody - throughout. all right, that is understood and nobody is i throughout. all right, that is - understood and nobody is suggesting otherwise~ _ understood and nobody is suggesting otherwise~ the — understood and nobody is suggesting otherwise. the point _ understood and nobody is suggesting otherwise. the point i _ understood and nobody is suggesting otherwise. the point i am _ understood and nobody is suggesting otherwise. the point i am making - understood and nobody is suggesting otherwise. the point i am making is. otherwise. the point i am making is a different_ otherwise. the point i am making is a different one, _ otherwise. the point i am making is a different one, which _ otherwise. the point i am making is a different one, which is _ otherwise. the point i am making is a different one, which is the - otherwise. the point i am making is a different one, which is the dhsc, i a different one, which is the dhsc, your clinical — a different one, which is the dhsc, your clinical advisers, _ a different one, which is the dhsc, your clinical advisers, whether- a different one, which is the dhsc, your clinical advisers, whether it i your clinical advisers, whether it was who— your clinical advisers, whether it was who promulgated _ your clinical advisers, whether it was who promulgated the - your clinical advisers, whether it. was who promulgated the policies, could _ was who promulgated the policies, could not— was who promulgated the policies, could not in— was who promulgated the policies, could not in and _ was who promulgated the policies, could not in and day— was who promulgated the policies, could not in and day out _ was who promulgated the policies, could not in and day out practicallyi could not in and day out practically at residential— could not in and day out practically at residential care _ could not in and day out practically at residential care sector— could not in and day out practically at residential care sector level - at residential care sector level guarantee _ at residential care sector level guarantee everybody - at residential care sector level guarantee everybody a - at residential care sector level guarantee everybody a test. at residential care sector level guarantee everybody a test or| guarantee everybody a test or practically— guarantee everybody a test or practically make _ guarantee everybody a test or practically make them - guarantee everybody a test or. practically make them available. this was— practically make them available. this was an _ practically make them available. this was an extremely _ practically make them available. this was an extremely complex, i this was an extremely complex, difficult — this was an extremely complex, difficult system _ this was an extremely complex, difficult system and _ this was an extremely complex, difficult system and you - this was an extremely complex, difficult system and you could i this was an extremely complex, i difficult system and you could not ensure _ difficult system and you could not ensure or — difficult system and you could not ensure or guarantee _ difficult system and you could not ensure or guarantee that - difficult system and you could not ensure or guarantee that there i difficult system and you could not. ensure or guarantee that there would be tesis— ensure or guarantee that there would be tests available _ ensure or guarantee that there would be tests available for— ensure or guarantee that there would be tests available for everyone - ensure or guarantee that there would be tests available for everyone in - be tests available for everyone in accordance — be tests available for everyone in accordance with _ be tests available for everyone in accordance with the _ be tests available for everyone in accordance with the policy. - be tests available for everyone in accordance with the policy. [5 - be tests available for everyone in accordance with the policy. is it i accordance with the policy. is it possible? _ accordance with the policy. is it possible? yes. _ accordance with the policy. possible? yes. however, what accordance with the policy.- possible? yes. however, what i am saying is when we were devising the policy, we tried to take that into account as much as possible, but you

cannot take it into account entirely. fif cannot take it into account entirely-— cannot take it into account entirel . , entirely. of course, ifi may say so, that entirely. of course, ifi may say so. that is— entirely. of course, ifi may say so, that is an _ entirely. of course, ifi may say so, that is an obvious _ entirely. of course, ifi may say so, that is an obvious point. - entirely. of course, ifi may say so, that is an obvious point. in| entirely. of course, if i may say i so, that is an obvious point. in the whatsauu — so, that is an obvious point. in the whatsapp group _ so, that is an obvious point. in the whatsapp group to _ so, that is an obvious point. in the whatsapp group to which - so, that is an obvious point. in the whatsapp group to which you - so, that is an obvious point. in the whatsapp group to which you are. so, that is an obvious point. in the| whatsapp group to which you are a contributor, — whatsapp group to which you are a contributor, the _ whatsapp group to which you are a contributor, the group _ whatsapp group to which you are a contributor, the group i _ whatsapp group to which you are a contributor, the group i have - contributor, the group i have mentioned _ contributor, the group i have mentioned earlier, _ contributor, the group i have mentioned earlier, you - contributor, the group i have mentioned earlier, you will. contributor, the group i have - mentioned earlier, you will recall, mr hancock, — mentioned earlier, you will recall, mr hancock, that _ mentioned earlier, you will recall, mr hancock, that in _ mentioned earlier, you will recall, mr hancock, that in may, - mentioned earlier, you will recall, mr hancock, that in may, mr- mentioned earlier, you will recall, - mr hancock, that in may, mr cummings says, i— mr hancock, that in may, mr cummings says. idon't— mr hancock, that in may, mr cummings says, i don't understand _ mr hancock, that in may, mr cummings says, i don't understand why— mr hancock, that in may, mr cummings says, i don't understand why we - mr hancock, that in may, mr cummings says, i don't understand why we are - says, i don't understand why we are still not _ says, i don't understand why we are still not testing _ says, i don't understand why we are still not testing more _ says, i don't understand why we are still not testing more care _ says, i don't understand why we are still not testing more care home - still not testing more care home staff, _ still not testing more care home staff, including _ still not testing more care home staff, including asymptomatic. i still not testing more care home i staff, including asymptomatic. sir patrick— staff, including asymptomatic. sir patrick vallance _ staff, including asymptomatic. sir patrick vallance says, _ staff, including asymptomatic. sir patrick vallance says, if— staff, including asymptomatic. sir patrick vallance says, if we - staff, including asymptomatic. sir patrick vallance says, if we don'tl patrick vallance says, if we don't -et patrick vallance says, if we don't get on _ patrick vallance says, if we don't get on top — patrick vallance says, if we don't get on top of— patrick vallance says, if we don't get on top of the _ patrick vallance says, if we don't get on top of the spread, - patrick vallance says, if we don't get on top of the spread, we - patrick vallance says, if we don't get on top of the spread, we risk the rest — get on top of the spread, we risk the rest and _ get on top of the spread, we risk the rest. and you _ get on top of the spread, we risk the rest. and you say, _ get on top of the spread, we risk the rest. and you say, we - get on top of the spread, we risk the rest. and you say, we have l get on top of the spread, we risk- the rest. and you say, we have been doing _ the rest. and you say, we have been doing this _ the rest. and you say, we have been doing this for — the rest. and you say, we have been doing this for the _ the rest. and you say, we have been doing this for the past _ the rest. and you say, we have been doing this for the past week, - the rest. and you say, we have been doing this for the past week, and - doing this for the past week, and that is— doing this for the past week, and that is dated _ doing this for the past week, and that is dated the _ doing this for the past week, and that is dated the 3rd _ doing this for the past week, and that is dated the 3rd of— doing this for the past week, and that is dated the 3rd of may- doing this for the past week, and that is dated the 3rd of may andl that is dated the 3rd of may and that is dated the 3rd of may and that must— that is dated the 3rd of may and that must be _ that is dated the 3rd of may and that must be a _ that is dated the 3rd of may and that must be a reference - that is dated the 3rd of may and that must be a reference back. that is dated the 3rd of may andl that must be a reference back to probably— that must be a reference back to probably the _ that must be a reference back to probably the 28th _ that must be a reference back to probably the 28th of _ that must be a reference back to probably the 28th of april- that must be a reference back to| probably the 28th of april policy. 0r probably the 28th of april policy. or perhaps — probably the 28th of april policy. or perhaps one _ probably the 28th of april policy. or perhaps one of— probably the 28th of april policy. or perhaps one of the _ probably the 28th of april policy. or perhaps one of the earlier- or perhaps one of the earlier policies _ or perhaps one of the earlier policies mr— or perhaps one of the earlier policies. mr cummings, - or perhaps one of the earlier policies. mr cummings, as. or perhaps one of the earlier. policies. mr cummings, as you or perhaps one of the earlier- policies. mr cummings, as you know, sends— policies. mr cummings, as you know, sends around — policies. mr cummings, as you know, sends around a— policies. mr cummings, as you know, sends around a message _ policies. mr cummings, as you know, sends around a message saying, - policies. mr cummings, as you know, sends around a message saying, we i sends around a message saying, we are negligently— sends around a message saying, we are negligently killing _ sends around a message saying, we are negligently killing the _ sends around a message saying, we are negligently killing the most - are negligently killing the most vulnerable _ are negligently killing the most vulnerable and _ are negligently killing the most vulnerable and i— are negligently killing the most vulnerable and i am _ are negligently killing the most vulnerable and i am extremelyl vulnerable and i am extremely worried — vulnerable and i am extremely worried trying _ vulnerable and i am extremely worried. trying to _ vulnerable and i am extremely worried. trying to be - vulnerable and i am extremely worried. trying to be as - vulnerable and i am extremelyl worried. trying to be as neutral vulnerable and i am extremely- worried. trying to be as neutral as you can _ worried. trying to be as neutral as

you can in — worried. trying to be as neutral as you can in terms— worried. trying to be as neutral as you can in terms of— worried. trying to be as neutral as you can in terms of your— worried. trying to be as neutral as you can in terms of your dealings. you can in terms of your dealings with mr_ you can in terms of your dealings with mr cummings, _ you can in terms of your dealings with mr cummings, was- you can in terms of your dealings with mr cummings, was this - you can in terms of your dealings - with mr cummings, was this explosive in the _ with mr cummings, was this explosive in the can— with mr cummings, was this explosive in the can indications _ with mr cummings, was this explosive in the can indications are _ with mr cummings, was this explosive in the can indications are very- in the can indications are very explosive. _ in the can indications are very explosive, this _ in the can indications are very explosive, this explosive - in the can indications are very explosive, this explosive row| in the can indications are very. explosive, this explosive row as in the can indications are very- explosive, this explosive row as to what _ explosive, this explosive row as to what was — explosive, this explosive row as to what was being _ explosive, this explosive row as to what was being done _ explosive, this explosive row as to what was being done a _ explosive, this explosive row as to what was being done a reflection. explosive, this explosive row as toi what was being done a reflection of that difficulty — what was being done a reflection of that difficulty that _ what was being done a reflection of that difficulty that policy _ what was being done a reflection of that difficulty that policy may - what was being done a reflection of that difficulty that policy may not . that difficulty that policy may not reflect _ that difficulty that policy may not reflect the — that difficulty that policy may not reflect the reality _ that difficulty that policy may not reflect the reality of _ that difficulty that policy may not reflect the reality of what - that difficulty that policy may not reflect the reality of what tests . reflect the reality of what tests were _ reflect the reality of what tests were actually— reflect the reality of what tests were actually in _ reflect the reality of what tests were actually in place - reflect the reality of what tests were actually in place up - reflect the reality of what tests were actually in place up and l reflect the reality of what tests - were actually in place up and down the land _ were actually in place up and down the land in — were actually in place up and down the land in the _ were actually in place up and down the land in the care _ were actually in place up and down the land in the care sector. -- - were actually in place up and down the land in the care sector.- the land in the care sector. -- and the land in the care sector. -- and the indication _ the land in the care sector. -- and the indication is. _ the land in the care sector. -- and the indication is. it _ the land in the care sector. -- and the indication is. it was _ the land in the care sector. -- and the indication is. it was a - the indication is. it was a reflection in my opinion of two things. the first is that you can find examples on the ground where the policy set in whitehall doesn't match entirely. but it is also a reflection of the fact that unfortunately, the prime minister's chief adviser didn't always try to ascertain the facts before making comments. he did this over the testing target towards the end of march which we hit, when he provided misinformation to the prime minister. mr

misinformation to the prime minister. ~ ., ., minister. mr hancock, i have given ou minister. mr hancock, i have given you ample — minister. mr hancock, i have given you ample opportunity _ minister. mr hancock, i have given you ample opportunity to - minister. mr hancock, i have given| you ample opportunity to comment minister. mr hancock, i have given . you ample opportunity to comment on the allegations — you ample opportunity to comment on the allegations that _ you ample opportunity to comment on the allegations that mr _ you ample opportunity to comment on the allegations that mr cummings - you ample opportunity to comment on the allegations that mr cummings has| the allegations that mr cummings has made about— the allegations that mr cummings has made about you _ the allegations that mr cummings has made about you. the _ the allegations that mr cummings has made about you-— made about you. the point is, they are false so — made about you. the point is, they are false so you — made about you. the point is, they are false so you cannot _ made about you. the point is, they are false so you cannot actually - are false so you cannot actually take anything he wrote in that it is true because in that case, it didn't accord with the facts. and ijust gave another example. and therefore, it is quite difficult to answer in a substantive way about the planning of future pandemics when the comments that i was receiving were not based on the truth. shall comments that i was receiving were not based on the truth.— not based on the truth. all right. a rotective not based on the truth. all right. a protective ring- — not based on the truth. all right. a protective ring. on _ not based on the truth. all right. a protective ring. on the _ not based on the truth. all right. a protective ring. on the 15th - not based on the truth. all right. a protective ring. on the 15th of- not based on the truth. all right. a| protective ring. on the 15th of may, protective ring. 0n the 15th of may, you said _ protective ring. 0n the 15th of may, you said at — protective ring. 0n the 15th of may, you said at a — protective ring. 0n the 15th of may, you said at a downing _ protective ring. 0n the 15th of may, you said at a downing street - protective ring. 0n the 15th of may, you said at a downing street pressl you said at a downing street press conference. — you said at a downing street press conference, right _ you said at a downing street press conference, right from _ you said at a downing street press conference, right from the - you said at a downing street press conference, right from the start, l you said at a downing street press| conference, right from the start, it has been _ conference, right from the start, it has been clear— conference, right from the start, it has been clear that _ conference, right from the start, it has been clear that this _ conference, right from the start, it has been clear that this horrible i has been clear that this horrible virus _ has been clear that this horrible virus affects _ has been clear that this horrible virus affects older— has been clear that this horrible virus affects older people - has been clear that this horrible virus affects older people most. has been clear that this horrible i virus affects older people most. so i’i l ht virus affects older people most. so right from — virus affects older people most. so right from the _ virus affects older people most. so right from the start, _ virus affects older people most. so right from the start, we _ virus affects older people most. so right from the start, we have - virus affects older people most. so right from the start, we have triedl right from the start, we have tried to throw— right from the start, we have tried to throw a — right from the start, we have tried to throw a protective _ right from the start, we have tried to throw a protective ring - right from the start, we have tried to throw a protective ring around i to throw a protective ring around our care — to throw a protective ring around our care homes _ to throw a protective ring around our care homes. and _ to throw a protective ring around our care homes. and you - to throw a protective ring around our care homes. and you say, i to throw a protective ring aroundl our care homes. and you say, we to throw a protective ring around - our care homes. and you say, we have tried _ our care homes. and you say, we have tried you _ our care homes. and you say, we have tried. you denied _ our care homes. and you say, we have tried. you denied on _ our care homes. and you say, we have tried. you denied on a _ our care homes. and you say, we have tried. you denied on a show— our care homes. and you say, we have tried. you denied on a show on - our care homes. and you say, we have tried. you denied on a show on the - tried. you denied on a show on the 6th of— tried. you denied on a show on the 6th ofjune — tried. you denied on a show on the 6th ofjune using _ tried. you denied on a show on the 6th ofjune using the _ tried. you denied on a show on the 6th ofjune using the words- tried. you denied on a show on the 6th ofjune using the words right . 6th ofjune using the words right from _ 6th ofjune using the words right from the — 6th ofjune using the words right

from the start. _ 6th ofjune using the words right from the start. and _ 6th ofjune using the words right from the start. and in— 6th ofjune using the words right from the start. and in another. from the start. and in another place. — from the start. and in another place. in — from the start. and in another place, in parliament, - from the start. and in another place, in parliament, and- from the start. and in another place, in parliament, and a i from the start. and in another- place, in parliament, and a breach no parliamentary— place, in parliament, and a breach no parliamentary privilege - place, in parliament, and a breach no parliamentary privilege ruled . place, in parliament, and a breach| no parliamentary privilege ruled by stating _ no parliamentary privilege ruled by stating as— no parliamentary privilege ruled by stating as a — no parliamentary privilege ruled by stating as a matter _ no parliamentary privilege ruled by stating as a matter of _ no parliamentary privilege ruled by stating as a matter of fact - no parliamentary privilege ruled by stating as a matter of fact because | stating as a matter of fact because i am stating as a matter of fact because i am not _ stating as a matter of fact because i am not addressing _ stating as a matter of fact because i am not addressing the _ stating as a matter of fact because i am not addressing the merits- stating as a matter of fact because i am not addressing the merits of. i am not addressing the merits of what _ i am not addressing the merits of what was — i am not addressing the merits of what was said _ i am not addressing the merits of what was said in _ i am not addressing the merits of what was said in parliament, - i am not addressing the merits of what was said in parliament, you| what was said in parliament, you said, _ what was said in parliament, you said. we — what was said in parliament, you said, we absolutely— what was said in parliament, you said, we absolutely did - what was said in parliament, you said, we absolutely did throw- what was said in parliament, you said, we absolutely did throw a l said, we absolutely did throw a protective _ said, we absolutely did throw a protective ring _ said, we absolutely did throw a protective ring around - said, we absolutely did throw a protective ring around social. said, we absolutely did throw a i protective ring around social care. so that _ protective ring around social care. so that is — protective ring around social care. so that is the _ protective ring around social care. so that is the context. _ protective ring around social care. so that is the context. going - protective ring around social care. so that is the context. going back| so that is the context. going back to the _ so that is the context. going back to the press— so that is the context. going back to the press conference, - so that is the context. going back to the press conference, you - so that is the context. going back| to the press conference, you said, right— to the press conference, you said, right from — to the press conference, you said, right from the _ to the press conference, you said, right from the start, _ to the press conference, you said, right from the start, it _ to the press conference, you said, right from the start, it has- to the press conference, you said, right from the start, it has been. right from the start, it has been clear— right from the start, it has been clear we — right from the start, it has been clear we tried _ right from the start, it has been clear we tried to _ right from the start, it has been clear we tried to throw - right from the start, it has been clear we tried to throw a - right from the start, it has been. clear we tried to throw a protective ring _ clear we tried to throw a protective ring do _ clear we tried to throw a protective ring do you — clear we tried to throw a protective ring. do you acknowledge - clear we tried to throw a protective ring. do you acknowledge that - clear we tried to throw a protective ring. do you acknowledge that the| ring. do you acknowledge that the phrase _ ring. do you acknowledge that the phrase trying _ ring. do you acknowledge that the phrase trying to _ ring. do you acknowledge that the phrase trying to throw _ ring. do you acknowledge that the phrase trying to throw a _ ring. do you acknowledge that the| phrase trying to throw a protective rin- phrase trying to throw a protective ring and _ phrase trying to throw a protective ring and a — phrase trying to throw a protective ring and a reference _ phrase trying to throw a protective ring and a reference to _ phrase trying to throw a protective ring and a reference to right - phrase trying to throw a protective ring and a reference to right froml ring and a reference to right from the start — ring and a reference to right from the start was— ring and a reference to right from the start was open _ ring and a reference to right from the start was open to _ the start was open to interpretation? - the start was open to. interpretation? people the start was open to - interpretation? people would the start was open to _ interpretation? people would take from those — interpretation? people would take from those words _ interpretation? people would take from those words what _ interpretation? people would take from those words what they- interpretation? people would takel from those words what they wished and there _ from those words what they wished and there was — from those words what they wished and there was certainly— from those words what they wished and there was certainly an - from those words what they wished i and there was certainly an argument for saying _ and there was certainly an argument for saying that — and there was certainly an argument for saying that that _ and there was certainly an argument for saying that that was _ and there was certainly an argument for saying that that was giving - and there was certainly an argument for saying that that was giving the i for saying that that was giving the clear impression— for saying that that was giving the clear impression that _ for saying that that was giving the clear impression that there - for saying that that was giving the clear impression that there was i for saying that that was giving the| clear impression that there was an impermeable _ clear impression that there was an impermeable barrier, _ clear impression that there was an impermeable barrier, whether- clear impression that there was an impermeable barrier, whether in l impermeable barrier, whether in terms _ impermeable barrier, whether in terms of— impermeable barrier, whether in terms of finance, _ impermeable barrier, whether in terms of finance, fiscal - impermeable barrier, whether in terms of finance, fiscal support, | terms of finance, fiscal support, testing — terms of finance, fiscal support, testing or— terms of finance, fiscal support, testing or discharge, _ terms of finance, fiscal support, testing or discharge, staff, - testing or discharge, staff, residential— testing or discharge, staff,

residential movements- testing or discharge, staff, i residential movements within testing or discharge, staff, - residential movements within the care sector? _ residential movements within the care sector? l— residential movements within the care sector?— residential movements within the care sector? i entirely understand why people _ care sector? i entirely understand why people feel— care sector? i entirely understand why people feel strongly - care sector? i entirely understand why people feel strongly about i care sector? i entirely understand l why people feel strongly about this. when i first said that, i then went on to explain what i meant. that we had put over £3 billion into the care sector in april, march and april. that we had released three ppe, that we have put in place infection—control guidance based on the scientific advice. etc. and in fact, in that press conference, i went on to list the different things that we were doing and in fact, as part of the plan, we were launching that day, we made another £600 million available for infection control purposes. and so i was trying to simply summarise that we had taken action. and i set out the action. . . had taken action. and i set out the action. . , , ., ., had taken action. and i set out the action. . , , ., action. that is understood. i cannot im - rove action. that is understood. i cannot improve on — action. that is understood. i cannot improve on the _ action. that is understood. i cannot improve on the glorious _ action. that is understood. i cannot improve on the glorious words i action. that is understood. i cannot improve on the glorious words of. improve on the glorious words of professor— improve on the glorious words of professor sir _ improve on the glorious words of professor sirjonathan _ improve on the glorious words of professor sirjonathan van—tam i improve on the glorious words of-

professor sirjonathan van—tam who professor sir jonathan van—tam who says in— professor sirjonathan van—tam who says in his _ professor sirjonathan van—tam who says in his statement, _ professor sirjonathan van—tam who says in his statement, my— professor sirjonathan van—tam who says in his statement, my view- professor sirjonathan van—tam who says in his statement, my view is- professor sirjonathan van—tam who says in his statement, my view is a i says in his statement, my view is a rin- says in his statement, my view is a ring is— says in his statement, my view is a ring is a _ says in his statement, my view is a ring is a circle _ says in his statement, my view is a ring is a circle without _ says in his statement, my view is a ring is a circle without a _ says in his statement, my view is a ring is a circle without a break - says in his statement, my view is a ring is a circle without a break in i ring is a circle without a break in it. ring is a circle without a break in it however— ring is a circle without a break in it however you _ ring is a circle without a break in it. however you describe - ring is a circle without a break in it. however you describe the i it. however you describe the protective _ it. however you describe the protective process _ it. however you describe the protective process as - it. however you describe the protective process as you i it. however you describe the| protective process as you put it. however you describe the i protective process as you put —— processes — protective process as you put —— processes you — protective process as you put —— processes you put _ protective process as you put —— processes you put in _ protective process as you put —— processes you put in place - protective process as you put —— i processes you put in place around the care _ processes you put in place around the care sector. _ processes you put in place around the care sector, they— processes you put in place around the care sector, they did - processes you put in place around the care sector, they did not - processes you put in place around the care sector, they did not form an unbroken— the care sector, they did not form an unbroken circle, _ the care sector, they did not form an unbroken circle, did _ the care sector, they did not form an unbroken circle, did they? it. the care sector, they did not form an unbroken circle, did they? it isi an unbroken circle, did they? it is ruite an unbroken circle, did they? it is quite clear— an unbroken circle, did they? it is quite clear from _ an unbroken circle, did they? quite clear from the an unbroken circle, did they? iii}, it quite clear from the evidence an unbroken circle, did they?- quite clear from the evidence that professor van time is right. yes. professor van time is right. yes, thank you- _ professor van time is right. yes, thank you- -- — professor van time is right. yes, thank you. -- jonathan - professor van time is right. yes, | thank you. -- jonathan van-tam. professor van time is right. yes, thank you. —— jonathan van—tam. 0n the 13th _ thank you. —— jonathan van—tam. 0n the 13th of— thank you. —— jonathan van—tam. 0n the 13th of may. _ thank you. —— jonathan van—tam. 0n the 13th of may, around _ thank you. —— jonathan van—tam. 0n the 13th of may, around the - thank you. —— jonathan van—tam. 0n the 13th of may, around the same i the 13th of may, around the same time. _ the 13th of may, around the same time. can— the 13th of may, around the same time. can we _ the 13th of may, around the same time, can we have _ the 13th of may, around the same time, can we have 102709? - the 13th of may, around the same time, can we have 102709? and i the 13th of may, around the same | time, can we have 102709? and it the 13th of may, around the same i time, can we have 102709? and it is the 13th _ time, can we have 102709? and it is the 13th of— time, can we have 102709? and it is the 13th of may _ time, can we have 102709? and it is the 13th of may entry— time, can we have 102709? and it is the 13th of may entry at _ time, can we have 102709? and it is the 13th of may entry at 1247. - and it may be page 219, but i will be corrected _

and it may be page 219, but i will be corrected if— and it may be page 219, but i will be corrected if i _ and it may be page 219, but i will be corrected if i am _ and it may be page 219, but i will be corrected if i am wrong. - and it may be page 219, but i will be corrected if i am wrong. the . and it may be page 219, but i will. be corrected if i am wrong. the 13th of may _ be corrected if i am wrong. the 13th of may. 12:47am _ be corrected if i am wrong. the 13th of may. 12:47am. there _ be corrected if i am wrong. the 13th of may. 12:47am. there we - be corrected if i am wrong. the 13th of may. 12:47am. there we are. i be corrected if i am wrong. the 13th i of may. 12:47am. there we are. thank you very— of may. 12:47am. there we are. thank you very much — of may. 12:47am. there we are. thank you very much. there _ of may. 12:47am. there we are. thank you very much. there is _ of may. 12:47am. there we are. thank you very much. there is a _ of may. 12:47am. there we are. thank you very much. there is a reference, i you very much. there is a reference, is that— you very much. there is a reference, is that one _ you very much. there is a reference, is that one of— you very much. there is a reference, is that one of your— you very much. there is a reference, is that one of your advisers? - you very much. there is a reference, is that one of your advisers? he i you very much. there is a reference, is that one of your advisers?- is that one of your advisers? he was m media is that one of your advisers? he was my media adviser— is that one of your advisers? he was my media adviser at _ is that one of your advisers? he was my media adviser at the _ is that one of your advisers? he was my media adviser at the time i is that one of your advisers? he was my media adviser at the time and i is that one of your advisers? he was my media adviser at the time and is| my media adviser at the time and is now director of strategy at number 10. ~ ., ., , ., now director of strategy at number 10. ., ,, , 10. matt, we might have some issues with ou 10. matt, we might have some issues with you telling _ 10. matt, we might have some issues with you telling the _ 10. matt, we might have some issues with you telling the prime _ 10. matt, we might have some issues with you telling the prime minister i with you telling the prime minister we locked — with you telling the prime minister we locked down _ with you telling the prime minister we locked down care _ with you telling the prime minister we locked down care homes - with you telling the prime minister| we locked down care homes before with you telling the prime minister- we locked down care homes before the rest of _ we locked down care homes before the rest of the _ we locked down care homes before the rest of the country. _ we locked down care homes before the rest of the country. this _ we locked down care homes before the rest of the country. this is _ we locked down care homes before the rest of the country. this is your- rest of the country. this is your adviser— rest of the country. this is your adviser telling _ rest of the country. this is your adviser telling you _ rest of the country. this is your adviser telling you there - rest of the country. this is your adviser telling you there may . rest of the country. this is yourl adviser telling you there may be rest of the country. this is your. adviser telling you there may be a need _ adviser telling you there may be a need to— adviser telling you there may be a need to correct _ adviser telling you there may be a need to correct either— adviser telling you there may be a need to correct either directly- adviser telling you there may be a need to correct either directly or i need to correct either directly or indirectly— need to correct either directly or indirectly an— need to correct either directly or indirectly an impression - need to correct either directly or i indirectly an impression seemingly given— indirectly an impression seemingly given by— indirectly an impression seemingly given by you — indirectly an impression seemingly given by you in— indirectly an impression seemingly given by you in your— indirectly an impression seemingly l given by you in your communications with the _ given by you in your communications with the prime — given by you in your communications with the prime minister. _ given by you in your communications with the prime minister. and - given by you in your communications with the prime minister. and the i with the prime minister. and the rest of— with the prime minister. and the rest of the — with the prime minister. and the rest of the page _ with the prime minister. and the rest of the page and _ with the prime minister. and the rest of the page and the - with the prime minister. and the rest of the page and the next i with the prime minister. and the| rest of the page and the next two pages _ rest of the page and the next two pages deal— rest of the page and the next two pages deal with _ rest of the page and the next two pages deal with your— rest of the page and the next two pages deal with your debate - rest of the page and the next twol pages deal with your debate about whether— pages deal with your debate about whether there _ pages deal with your debate about whether there was _ pages deal with your debate about whether there was a _ pages deal with your debate about whether there was a justification l whether there was a justification for using — whether there was a justification for using those _ whether there was a justification for using those words _ whether there was a justification for using those words and - whether there was a justification for using those words and how l whether there was a justification for using those words and how it might— for using those words and how it might be — for using those words and how it might be justified _ for using those words and how it. might be justified retrospectively. what was — might be justified retrospectively. what was that _ might be justified retrospectively. what was that debate _ might be justified retrospectively. what was that debate about, i might be justified retrospectively. what was that debate about, in i might be justified retrospectively. i what was that debate about, in what way did _ what was that debate about, in what way did the _ what was that debate about, in what way did the prime _ what was that debate about, in what way did the prime minister— what was that debate about, in what way did the prime minister believe i way did the prime minister believe that for— way did the prime minister believe that for your — way did the prime minister believe

that for your aid _ way did the prime minister believe that for your aid believe _ way did the prime minister believe that for your aid believe that - way did the prime minister believe that for your aid believe that by. that for your aid believe that by saying — that for your aid believe that by saying that _ that for your aid believe that by saying that we _ that for your aid believe that by saying that we have _ that for your aid believe that by saying that we have a _ that for your aid believe that by saying that we have a down i that for your aid believe that by saying that we have a down thej that for your aid believe that by- saying that we have a down the care homes. _ saying that we have a down the care homes. you — saying that we have a down the care homes. you might _ saying that we have a down the care homes, you might not _ saying that we have a down the care homes, you might not have - saying that we have a down the care homes, you might not have been. homes, you might not have been entirely— homes, you might not have been entirely accurate? _ homes, you might not have been entirely accurate?— homes, you might not have been entirely accurate? well, depends on how ou entirely accurate? well, depends on how you define _ entirely accurate? well, depends on how you define lockdown. _ entirely accurate? well, depends on how you define lockdown. just i entirely accurate? well, depends on how you define lockdown. just tell i how you define lockdown. just tell us the debate. _ how you define lockdown. just tell us the debate. in _ how you define lockdown. just tell us the debate. in what _ how you define lockdown. just tell us the debate. in what way - how you define lockdown. just tell us the debate. in what way do i how you define lockdown. just tell us the debate. in what way do you say you _ us the debate. in what way do you say you didn't _ us the debate. in what way do you say you didn't say— us the debate. in what way do you say you didn't say anything - say you didn't say anything misleading _ say you didn't say anything misleading and _ say you didn't say anything misleading and in- say you didn't say anything misleading and in what i say you didn't say anything | misleading and in what way say you didn't say anything - misleading and in what way was it being _ misleading and in what way was it being suggested _ misleading and in what way was it being suggested against - misleading and in what way was it being suggested against you - misleading and in what way was it being suggested against you that| misleading and in what way was it. being suggested against you that you had? ~ , , t, , a, had? well, it depends on whether you define the actions _ had? well, it depends on whether you define the actions that _ had? well, it depends on whether you define the actions that were _ had? well, it depends on whether you define the actions that were taken - define the actions that were taken in the publication on the 13th of march, that guidance, as lockdown or not. 50 march, that guidance, as lockdown or not. march, that guidance, as lockdown or not, march, that guidance, as lockdown or not. u, _, march, that guidance, as lockdown or not. t, , _, t, not. so it was in the context of the 13th of march _ not. so it was in the context of the 13th of march measures. _ not. so it was in the context of the 13th of march measures. yes, - not. so it was in the context of the - 13th of march measures. yes, because the critiaue 13th of march measures. yes, because the critique being _ 13th of march measures. yes, because the critique being put _ 13th of march measures. yes, because the critique being put at _ 13th of march measures. yes, because the critique being put at the _ 13th of march measures. yes, because the critique being put at the time - the critique being put at the time was that we took action to protect people in care homes later than locking down the rest of the country. and that was not true because we took action on the 13th of march, with respect to care homes. whether that action was

strong enough or not to call it lockdown, for instance, it included visitor restrictions, i'd think, thatis visitor restrictions, i'd think, that is the point of debate. jamie njoku-goodwin _ that is the point of debate. jamie njoku-goodwin sets _ that is the point of debate. jamie njoku-goodwin sets out - that is the point of debate. jamie njoku-goodwin sets out at - that is the point of debate. jamie njoku-goodwin sets out at the i that is the point of debate. jamie njoku—goodwin sets out at the bottom of the _ njoku—goodwin sets out at the bottom of the page _ njoku—goodwin sets out at the bottom of the page in— njoku—goodwin sets out at the bottom of the page in his _ njoku—goodwin sets out at the bottom of the page in his whatsapp _ njoku—goodwin sets out at the bottom of the page in his whatsapp what - njoku—goodwin sets out at the bottom of the page in his whatsapp what the i of the page in his whatsapp what the measures— of the page in his whatsapp what the measures were — of the page in his whatsapp what the measures were from _ of the page in his whatsapp what the measures were from the _ of the page in his whatsapp what the measures were from the 13th - of the page in his whatsapp what the measures were from the 13th of - measures were from the 13th of march — measures were from the 13th of march those _ measures were from the 13th of march. those are _ measures were from the 13th of march. those are the _ measures were from the 13th of march. those are the 13th - measures were from the 13th of march. those are the 13th of. measures were from the 13th of. march. those are the 13th of march measures — march. those are the 13th of march measures to— march. those are the 13th of march measures. to minimise _ march. those are the 13th of march measures. to minimise the - march. those are the 13th of march measures. to minimise the risk- march. those are the 13th of march measures. to minimise the risk ofl measures. to minimise the risk of transmission. _ measures. to minimise the risk of transmission, care _ measures. to minimise the risk of transmission, care home - measures. to minimise the risk of| transmission, care home providers are advised — transmission, care home providers are advised to _ transmission, care home providers are advised to review— transmission, care home providers are advised to review their - transmission, care home providers are advised to review their visiting| are advised to review their visiting policy— are advised to review their visiting policy by— are advised to review their visiting policy by asking _ are advised to review their visiting policy by asking no—one _ are advised to review their visiting policy by asking no—one to - are advised to review their visiting policy by asking no—one to visit i are advised to review their visiting i policy by asking no—one to visit who has suspected — policy by asking no—one to visit who has suspected covert _ policy by asking no—one to visit who has suspected covert 19 _ policy by asking no—one to visit who has suspected covert 19 or- policy by asking no—one to visit who has suspected covert 19 or is - has suspected covert 19 or is generally— has suspected covert 19 or is generally unwell— has suspected covert 19 or is generally unwell and - has suspected covert 19 or is generally unwell and by- has suspected covert 19 or is - generally unwell and by emphasising -ood generally unwell and by emphasising good hahd _ generally unwell and by emphasising good hahd hygiene _ generally unwell and by emphasising good hand hygiene for— generally unwell and by emphasising good hand hygiene for visitors - generally unwell and by emphasising good hand hygiene for visitors —— - good hand hygiene for visitors —— covid-i9~ — good hand hygiene for visitors —— covid—19. contractors— good hand hygiene for visitors —— covid—19. contractors should - good hand hygiene for visitors —— covid—19. contractors should be i good hand hygiene for visitors —— - covid—19. contractors should be kept to a minimum — covid—19. contractors should be kept to a minimum and _ covid—19. contractors should be kept to a minimum and the _ covid—19. contractors should be kept to a minimum and the review- covid—19. contractors should be kept to a minimum and the review should| to a minimum and the review should cohsider_ to a minimum and the review should consider the — to a minimum and the review should consider the well—being _ to a minimum and the review should consider the well—being of _ consider the well— being of residents _ consider the well—being of residents. in— consider the well—being of residents. in no— consider the well—being of residents. in no universe, | consider the well—being of i residents. in no universe, mr hancock, _ residents. in no universe, mr hancock, could _ residents. in no universe, mr hancock, could those - residents. in no universe, mr. hancock, could those measures possibly— hancock, could those measures possibly be _ hancock, could those measures possibly be described _ hancock, could those measures possibly be described as - hancock, could those measuresi possibly be described as locking down _ possibly be described as locking down the — possibly be described as locking down the care _ possibly be described as locking down the care homes. - possibly be described as locking down the care homes. [- possibly be described as locking down the care homes.— possibly be described as locking down the care homes. i think that is what jamie — down the care homes. i think that is what jamie was _ down the care homes. i think that is what jamie was trying _ down the care homes. i think that is what jamie was trying to _ down the care homes. i think that is what jamie was trying to tell - down the care homes. i think that is what jamie was trying to tell me. i what jamie was trying to tell me. all right, thank you. another

hugely, _ all right, thank you. another hugely, welcome _ all right, thank you. another hugely, welcome it - all right, thank you. another hugely, welcome it became. all right, thank you. another| hugely, welcome it became a all right, thank you. another- hugely, welcome it became a very divisive _ hugely, welcome it became a very divisive issue _ hugely, welcome it became a very divisive issue again, _ hugely, welcome it became a very divisive issue again, was - hugely, welcome it became a very divisive issue again, was the - hugely, welcome it became a very. divisive issue again, was the moving of personnel— divisive issue again, was the moving of personnel between _ divisive issue again, was the moving of personnel between care - divisive issue again, was the moving of personnel between care homes. i of personnel between care homes. yes. ., , ., .,~ , of personnel between care homes. yes. ., , yes. your statement makes plain you became aware _ yes. your statement makes plain you became aware of— yes. your statement makes plain you became aware of initial— yes. your statement makes plain you became aware of initial evidence - became aware of initial evidence savihg _ became aware of initial evidence saying that — became aware of initial evidence saying that the _ became aware of initial evidence saying that the movement - became aware of initial evidence saying that the movement of- became aware of initial evidence i saying that the movement of staff hetweeh _ saying that the movement of staff hetweeh care _ saying that the movement of staff between care homes _ saying that the movement of staff between care homes was - saying that the movement of staff between care homes was the - saying that the movement of staff| between care homes was the main source _ between care homes was the main source of— between care homes was the main source of transmission. _ between care homes was the main source of transmission. and - between care homes was the main source of transmission. and i- between care homes was the main. source of transmission. and i pause there _ source of transmission. and i pause there simply— source of transmission. and i pause there simply to _ source of transmission. and i pause there simply to say, _ source of transmission. and i pause there simply to say, i— source of transmission. and i pause there simply to say, i don't - source of transmission. and i pause there simply to say, i don't intend l there simply to say, i don't intend to ask— there simply to say, i don't intend to ask any— there simply to say, i don't intend to ask any questions _ there simply to say, i don't intend to ask any questions and - there simply to say, i don't intend to ask any questions and i - there simply to say, i don't intend to ask any questions and i would i to ask any questions and i would grateful— to ask any questions and i would grateful if— to ask any questions and i would grateful if you _ to ask any questions and i would grateful if you don't _ to ask any questions and i would grateful if you don't answer- to ask any questions and i would grateful if you don't answer or. to ask any questions and i would i grateful if you don't answer or try to give _ grateful if you don't answer or try to give an — grateful if you don't answer or try to give an answer— grateful if you don't answer or try to give an answer about- grateful if you don't answer or try to give an answer about the - grateful if you don't answer or try. to give an answer about the degree to give an answer about the degree to which— to give an answer about the degree to which the — to give an answer about the degree to which the discharge _ to give an answer about the degree to which the discharge of— to give an answer about the degree to which the discharge of patients i to which the discharge of patients from _ to which the discharge of patients from hospital— to which the discharge of patients from hospital contributed - to which the discharge of patients from hospital contributed to - from hospital contributed to infections _ from hospital contributed to infections in _ from hospital contributed to infections in care _ from hospital contributed to infections in care homes- from hospital contributed to infections in care homes as| from hospital contributed to - infections in care homes as opposed to the _ infections in care homes as opposed to the movement _ infections in care homes as opposed to the movement of _ infections in care homes as opposed to the movement of staff, _ infections in care homes as opposed to the movement of staff, that - infections in care homes as opposed to the movement of staff, that is i to the movement of staff, that is aware _ to the movement of staff, that is aware -- — to the movement of staff, that is aware -- that— to the movement of staff, that is aware —— that is— to the movement of staff, that is aware —— that is for— to the movement of staff, that is aware —— that is for another- to the movement of staff, that is| aware —— that is for another time. you _ aware —— that is for another time. you became — aware —— that is for another time. you became aware _ aware —— that is for another time. you became aware of— aware —— that is for another time. you became aware of evidencing i aware —— that is for another time. i you became aware of evidencing the movement— you became aware of evidencing the movement of— you became aware of evidencing the movement of staff _ you became aware of evidencing the movement of staff was _ you became aware of evidencing the movement of staff was the - you became aware of evidencing the movement of staff was the main - movement of staff was the main source _ movement of staff was the main source of— movement of staff was the main source of transmission. - movement of staff was the main source of transmission. sir- movement of staff was the main i source of transmission. sir patrick vatiahce _ source of transmission. sir patrick vatiahce has— source of transmission. sir patrick vallance has threw _ source of transmission. sir patrick vallance has threw his _ source of transmission. sir patrick vallance has threw his evening -

source of transmission. sir patrick i vallance has threw his evening notes suggested _ vallance has threw his evening notes suggested that — vallance has threw his evening notes suggested that he _ vallance has threw his evening notes suggested that he had _ vallance has threw his evening notes suggested that he had been- vallance has threw his evening notes suggested that he had been telling . suggested that he had been telling you for— suggested that he had been telling you for some — suggested that he had been telling you for some time _ suggested that he had been telling you for some time before - suggested that he had been telling you for some time before that - suggested that he had been telling. you for some time before that date, before _ you for some time before that date, before the _ you for some time before that date, before the iith — you for some time before that date, before the 11th of _ you for some time before that date, before the 11th of may, _ you for some time before that date, before the 11th of may, that - you for some time before that date, before the 11th of may, that the - before the 11th of may, that the movement— before the 11th of may, that the movement of— before the 11th of may, that the movement of persons - before the 11th of may, that the movement of persons between| before the 11th of may, that the - movement of persons between care homes _ movement of persons between care homes was — movement of persons between care homes was a — movement of persons between care homes was a significant _ movement of persons between care homes was a significant issue - movement of persons between care homes was a significant issue and l movement of persons between care | homes was a significant issue and he says. _ homes was a significant issue and he says, we _ homes was a significant issue and he says. we raised — homes was a significant issue and he says. we raised it _ homes was a significant issue and he says, we raised it in _ homes was a significant issue and he says, we raised it in february, - homes was a significant issue and he says, we raised it in february, and l says, we raised it in february, and he had _ says, we raised it in february, and he had been — says, we raised it in february, and he had been told _ says, we raised it in february, and he had been told by— says, we raised it in february, and he had been told by you _ says, we raised it in february, and he had been told by you that - says, we raised it in february, and he had been told by you that the l he had been told by you that the movement— he had been told by you that the movement of— he had been told by you that the movement of care _ he had been told by you that the movement of care homes - he had been told by you that the movement of care homes was i he had been told by you that the i movement of care homes was not he had been told by you that the - movement of care homes was not going to be movement of care homes was not going to he stopped _ movement of care homes was not going to be stopped because _ movement of care homes was not going to be stopped because it— movement of care homes was not going to be stopped because it was— to be stopped because it was essential— to be stopped because it was essential for— to be stopped because it was essential for that— to be stopped because it was essential for that sector. - to be stopped because it was. essential for that sector. would to be stopped because it was- essential for that sector. would you 'ust essential for that sector. would you just hrieftv— essential for that sector. would you just hriefiv sav _ essential for that sector. would you just briefly say whether— essential for that sector. would you just briefly say whether or - essential for that sector. would you just briefly say whether or not - essential for that sector. would you just briefly say whether or not you l just briefly say whether or not you accept _ just briefly say whether or not you accept the — just briefly say whether or not you accept the suggestion _ just briefly say whether or not you accept the suggestion that - just briefly say whether or not you accept the suggestion that sir - accept the suggestion that sir patrici

unpalatable outcomes. early in the pandemic, we were acutely aware of care homes in other countries where in particular there was an example in particular there was an example in spain that was very vivid in my memory, where there had not been enough staff, in that case, there were no staff and the residents had died. sadly, in care homes, people are both most vulnerable to the virus and most in need of human interaction for their well—being and ultimately, to live day to day. so we were very, very worried about not having enough staff to keep people alive. at the same time as being very worried about the transmission of the virus. now, of course, it comes down to the assumption you made about asymptomatic transmission. and it comes down to the balance between these two awful considerations. by april, when there

was more, when we had had more time and the care sector had had time to deal with the logistical problems of restricting staff movement, we then took action which i think we announced in the middle of may. 50 my explanation for why patrick might feel that way is that there is a scientific argument on the one hand and there is an operational argument on the other, and some of his greatest frustrations were when the scientific requirement and the operational constraints were in conflict with each other, as they were in this case.— conflict with each other, as they were in this case. forgive me. the very difficult _ were in this case. forgive me. the very difficult conundrum _ were in this case. forgive me. the very difficult conundrum faced - were in this case. forgive me. the very difficult conundrum faced by i very difficult conundrum faced by government— very difficult conundrum faced by government is— very difficult conundrum faced by government is obvious, - very difficult conundrum faced by government is obvious, i- very difficult conundrum faced by government is obvious, i wasn'ti government is obvious, i wasn't asking _ government is obvious, i wasn't asking about _ government is obvious, i wasn't asking about that. _ government is obvious, i wasn't asking about that. i— government is obvious, i wasn't asking about that. i was - government is obvious, i wasn't asking about that. i was askingi government is obvious, i wasn't i asking about that. i was asking you whether— asking about that. i was asking you whether there _ asking about that. i was asking you whether there was _ asking about that. i was asking you whether there was any _ asking about that. i was asking you whether there was any truth - asking about that. i was asking you whether there was any truth to - asking about that. i was asking you whether there was any truth to the | whether there was any truth to the suggestion— whether there was any truth to the suggestion that _ whether there was any truth to the suggestion that sir— whether there was any truth to the suggestion that sir patrick- whether there was any truth to the | suggestion that sir patrick vallance had asked — suggestion that sir patrick vallance had asked you _ suggestion that sir patrick vallance had asked you and _ suggestion that sir patrick vallance

had asked you and had _ suggestion that sir patrick vallance had asked you and had told - suggestion that sir patrick vallance had asked you and had told you - suggestion that sir patrick vallance i had asked you and had told you that the issue _ had asked you and had told you that the issue of— had asked you and had told you that the issue of moving _ had asked you and had told you that the issue of moving people - had asked you and had told you that the issue of moving people between care homes— the issue of moving people between care homes was— the issue of moving people between care homes was important - the issue of moving people between care homes was important and - the issue of moving people between care homes was important and that| care homes was important and that you had _ care homes was important and that you had rejected _ care homes was important and that you had rejected that— care homes was important and that you had rejected that as _ care homes was important and that you had rejected that as an - care homes was important and that you had rejected that as an issue? i you had rejected that as an issue? he says. _ you had rejected that as an issue? he says. i— you had rejected that as an issue? he says. i got _ you had rejected that as an issue? he says, i got told _ you had rejected that as an issue? he says, i got told off. _ you had rejected that as an issue? he says, i got told off. and - you had rejected that as an issue? he says, i got told off. and that. he says, i got told off. and that you only — he says, i got told off. and that you only belatedly— he says, i got told off. and that you only belatedly appreciated i he says, i got told off. and that. you only belatedly appreciated that there was— you only belatedly appreciated that there was a — you only belatedly appreciated that there was a very _ you only belatedly appreciated that there was a very real— you only belatedly appreciated that there was a very real problem. - you only belatedly appreciated that there was a very real problem. [5 l there was a very real problem. [£3 that there was a very real problem. that true or not? that is not correct, it is not a fair reflection of my position. firstly, i wouldn't deign to tell off patrick vallance, he was a very eminent scientist and businessman. also, my challenge at the time as secretary of state and, indeed, our challenge both as a department and with the care sector who we had discussed these matters with was this balance between the absolute need to have staff and the imperative to reduce transmission which was carried by staff, and these two difficult considerations

were in conflict. it is not reasonable to just take one side of that argument, you have to take both into account. that argument, you have to take both into account-— into account. moving on. a couple of discrete issues, _ into account. moving on. a couple of discrete issues, please. _ into account. moving on. a couple of discrete issues, please. in— into account. moving on. a couple of discrete issues, please. in your - discrete issues, please. in your witness— discrete issues, please. in your witness statement _ discrete issues, please. in your witness statement ad _ discrete issues, please. in your| witness statement ad paragraph discrete issues, please. in your- witness statement ad paragraph 393, you refer— witness statement ad paragraph 393, you refer to— witness statement ad paragraph 393, you refer to in— witness statement ad paragraph 393, you refer to in the _ witness statement ad paragraph 393, you refer to in the context _ witness statement ad paragraph 393, you refer to in the context of - witness statement ad paragraph 393, you refer to in the context of the - you refer to in the context of the devotved — you refer to in the context of the devolved administrations. - you refer to in the context of the devolved administrations. you i you refer to in the context of the i devolved administrations. you refer to difficulties — devolved administrations. you refer to difficulties encountered - devolved administrations. you refer to difficulties encountered by - devolved administrations. you refer to difficulties encountered by the i to difficulties encountered by the united _ to difficulties encountered by the united kingdom _ to difficulties encountered by the united kingdom government - to difficulties encountered by the - united kingdom government associated with the _ united kingdom government associated with the scottish — united kingdom government associated with the scottish government _ united kingdom government associated with the scottish government taking, . with the scottish government taking, i will summarise _ with the scottish government taking, i will summarise it _ with the scottish government taking, i will summarise it in _ with the scottish government taking, i will summarise it in this— with the scottish government taking, i will summarise it in this way, - i will summarise it in this way, different— i will summarise it in this way, different positions— i will summarise it in this way, i different positions presentation i will summarise it in this way, - different positions presentation the or politically. — different positions presentation the or politically, notwithstanding - different positions presentation the or politically, notwithstanding a - or politically, notwithstanding a common — or politically, notwithstanding a common clinical— or politically, notwithstanding a common clinical position. - or politically, notwithstanding a common clinical position. so i or politically, notwithstanding a - common clinical position. so taking a presentational, _ common clinical position. so taking a presentational, political- common clinical position. so taking a presentational, political angle - common clinical position. so taking a presentational, political angle on| a presentational, political angle on matters _ a presentational, political angle on matters which _ a presentational, political angle on matters which were _ a presentational, political angle on matters which were understood - a presentational, political angle on matters which were understood to| a presentational, political angle on. matters which were understood to be common _ matters which were understood to be common ground _ matters which were understood to be common ground clinically. _ matters which were understood to be common ground clinically. yes. - matters which were understood to be common ground clinically. yes. to. common ground clinically. yes. to what is that _ common ground clinically. yes. to what is that a _ common ground clinically. to what is that a reference? common ground clinically. yes. to what is that a reference? well, . common ground clinically. yes. toj what is that a reference? well, we worked very _ what is that a reference? well, we

worked very well _ what is that a reference? well, we worked very well together - what is that a reference? well, we worked very well together at - what is that a reference? well, we. worked very well together at health minister, health secretary level and then there is evidence of that in then there is evidence of that in the whatsapp group. and i know that ad cmo level, they worked very well together and chris whitty has testified to that. the challenge was that when decisions went up from our level to first minister and prime ministerial level, there would sometimes be an agreement on what to do, but someone would go ahead and announce it beforehand, causing confusion. ora announce it beforehand, causing confusion. or a choice to do something which was substantively the same, but presentation the different, or marginally different, which i thought in some cases was for the sake of presentation. my starting point was the scientific point, which is that we live on an island or a set of islands. and the virus does not recognise administrative boundaries, even those which are centuries old like

the scottish and welsh borders. and it is necessary to take decisions across the whole island that are consistent, and there was also obviously a communications challenge with the public. 50 i found it unfortunate that sometimes,, not all the time bailey stretch, but sometimes when decisions went up in particular in scotland, and in particular in scotland, and in particular at first minister level, there would then be a political angle or presentational angle put on angle or presentational angle put on a decision based on the same science, it was frustrating. —— not all the time, by any stretch. science, it was frustrating. -- not all the time, by any stretch. moving to the summer _ all the time, by any stretch. moving to the summer of _ all the time, by any stretch. moving to the summer of 2020. _ all the time, by any stretch. moving to the summer of 2020. without. all the time, by any stretch. moving i to the summer of 2020. without going into the _ to the summer of 2020. without going into the detail— to the summer of 2020. without going into the detail of _ to the summer of 2020. without going into the detail of the _ to the summer of 2020. without going into the detail of the plan _ to the summer of 2020. without going into the detail of the plan to _ into the detail of the plan to rebuild _ into the detail of the plan to rebuild or— into the detail of the plan to rebuild or the _ into the detail of the plan to rebuild or the exit _ into the detail of the plan to rebuild or the exit from - into the detail of the plan to rebuild or the exit from the i into the detail of the plan to - rebuild or the exit from the first national— rebuild or the exit from the first national lockdown. _ rebuild or the exit from the first national lockdown. it _ rebuild or the exit from the first national lockdown. it is - rebuild or the exit from the first national lockdown. it is plain, . rebuild or the exit from the firstl national lockdown. it is plain, mr hancock, — national lockdown. it is plain, mr hancock, that— national lockdown. it is plain, mr hancock, that there _ national lockdown. it is plain, mr hancock, that there was - national lockdown. it is plain, mr hancock, that there was a - national lockdown. it is plain, mr. hancock, that there was a vigorous debate _ hancock, that there was a vigorous

debate about — hancock, that there was a vigorous debate about the _ hancock, that there was a vigorous debate about the speed _ hancock, that there was a vigorous debate about the speed at - hancock, that there was a vigorous debate about the speed at which i hancock, that there was a vigorous. debate about the speed at which the country— debate about the speed at which the country should — debate about the speed at which the country should come _ debate about the speed at which the country should come out _ debate about the speed at which the country should come out of- debate about the speed at which the country should come out of the - country should come out of the measures _ country should come out of the measures. and _ country should come out of the measures. and a _ country should come out of the measures. and a debate - country should come out of the measures. and a debate about| country should come out of the - measures. and a debate about the speed _ measures. and a debate about the speed at— measures. and a debate about the speed at which _ measures. and a debate about the speed at which the _ measures. and a debate about the speed at which the particular - measures. and a debate about the i speed at which the particular phases of the _ speed at which the particular phases of the road — speed at which the particular phases of the road map— speed at which the particular phases of the road map should _ speed at which the particular phases of the road map should be _ speed at which the particular phasesl of the road map should be proceeded through~ _ of the road map should be proceeded throu~h. , of the road map should be proceeded through. yes. your— of the road map should be proceeded through. yes. your statement- through. yes. your statement su . . ests through. yes. your statement suggests that _ through. yes. your statement suggests that you _ through.“ your statement suggests that you had - through.“ your statement i suggests that you had significant concerns— suggests that you had significant concerns about _ suggests that you had significant concerns about whether- suggests that you had significant concerns about whether or - suggests that you had significant concerns about whether or not . suggests that you had significant| concerns about whether or not to step three — concerns about whether or not to step three of— concerns about whether or not to step three of the _ concerns about whether or not to step three of the road _ concerns about whether or not to step three of the road map - concerns about whether or not to step three of the road map went| concerns about whether or not to i step three of the road map went too far because — step three of the road map went too far because it— step three of the road map went too far because it was _ step three of the road map went too far because it was obvious _ step three of the road map went too far because it was obvious that - far because it was obvious that cases— far because it was obvious that cases were _ far because it was obvious that cases were rising _ far because it was obvious that cases were rising again. - far because it was obvious that cases were rising again. and . far because it was obvious that i cases were rising again. and you also _ cases were rising again. and you also guestion _ cases were rising again. and you also question the _ cases were rising again. and you also question the tone _ cases were rising again. and you also question the tone and - cases were rising again. and you . also question the tone and ambition of government — also question the tone and ambition of government publications. - also question the tone and ambition of government publications. in - of government publications. in particular. _ of government publications. in particular, one _ of government publications. in particular, one of— of government publications. in particular, one of the - of government publications. in particular, one of the chaptersj of government publications. in . particular, one of the chapters of the plan — particular, one of the chapters of the plan to— particular, one of the chapters of the plan to rebuild. _ particular, one of the chapters of the plan to rebuild.— the plan to rebuild. could you remind me — the plan to rebuild. could you remind me of— the plan to rebuild. could you remind me of the _ the plan to rebuild. could you remind me of the date - the plan to rebuild. could you remind me of the date of- the plan to rebuild. could you| remind me of the date of step the plan to rebuild. could you - remind me of the date of step three? phase three. i don't think i can assist — phase three. i don't think i can assist on — phase three. i don't think i can assist on a _ phase three. idon't think i can assist on a particular— phase three. i don't think i can assist on a particular date. - phase three. i don't think i can assist on a particular date. it l

assist on a particular date. it matters _ assist on a particular date. it matters not _ assist on a particular date. it matters not because - assist on a particular date. it matters not because it - assist on a particular date. it matters not because it is - assist on a particular date. it - matters not because it is obvious it was in _ matters not because it is obvious it was in may — matters not because it is obvious it was in may-— was in may. cases starting rising in mid-jul , was in may. cases starting rising in mid-july. that _ was in may. cases starting rising in mid-july. that is — was in may. cases starting rising in mid-july, that is when _ was in may. cases starting rising in mid-july, that is when i _ was in may. cases starting rising in mid-july, that is when i really - mid—july, that is when i really started worrying. but mid-july, that is when i really started worrying.— mid-july, that is when i really startedwor inc. �* started worrying. but your statement sa s stare started worrying. but your statement says stage iii — started worrying. but your statement says stage iii went _ started worrying. but your statement says stage iii went too _ started worrying. but your statement says stage iii went too far _ started worrying. but your statement says stage iii went too far as - started worrying. but your statement says stage iii went too far as cases . says stage iii went too far as cases started — says stage iii went too far as cases started rising — says stage iii went too far as cases started rising again. _ says stage iii went too far as cases started rising again. in— says stage iii went too far as cases started rising again. injuly, - says stage iii went too far as cases started rising again. injuly, you i started rising again. injuly, you tater— started rising again. injuly, you later expressed _ started rising again. injuly, you later expressed concern - started rising again. injuly, you later expressed concern to - started rising again. injuly, you later expressed concern to the i started rising again. injuly, you - later expressed concern to the prime minister— later expressed concern to the prime minister about— later expressed concern to the prime minister about the _ later expressed concern to the prime minister about the speed _ later expressed concern to the prime minister about the speed of - later expressed concern to the prime minister about the speed of release. | minister about the speed of release. i minister about the speed of release. i don't _ minister about the speed of release. i don't want — minister about the speed of release. idon't want to— minister about the speed of release. i don't want to trouble _ minister about the speed of release. i don't want to trouble you _ minister about the speed of release. i don't want to trouble you with - minister about the speed of release. i don't want to trouble you with the. i don't want to trouble you with the detail, _ idon't want to trouble you with the detail, but— idon't want to trouble you with the detail, but in— i don't want to trouble you with the detail, but in this _ idon't want to trouble you with the detail, but in this general- i don't want to trouble you with the detail, but in this general debate . detail, but in this general debate about— detail, but in this general debate about caution _ detail, but in this general debate about caution against _ detail, but in this general debate about caution against the - detail, but in this general debate about caution against the speed i detail, but in this general debate i about caution against the speed of release, _ about caution against the speed of release, you — about caution against the speed of release, you work— about caution against the speed of release, you work for— about caution against the speed of release, you work for caution. - about caution against the speed of release, you work for caution. to i release, you work for caution. to what _ release, you work for caution. to what extent _ release, you work for caution. to what extent where _ release, you work for caution. to what extent where your - release, you work for caution. to what extent where your concernsj what extent where your concerns heard _ what extent where your concerns heard and — what extent where your concerns heard and reflected _ what extent where your concerns heard and reflected in _ what extent where your concerns heard and reflected in the - heard and reflected in the government's— heard and reflected in the government's position - heard and reflected in the - government's position thereafter? well, _ government's position thereafter? welt, they— government's position thereafter? welt, they were _ government's position thereafter? well, they were heard _ government's position thereafter? well, they were heard and - government's position thereafter? well, they were heard and they i government's position thereafter? . well, they were heard and they were reflected i guess in as much as it might, there might have been more opening, had i not made these arguments. my entire strategy at this point was to try to keep r below one. i thought that it was, i was completely alongside chris whitty during this period on this

strategy, which was, summer is the best time to release. if r goes a bit above one over summer, not the end of the world so long as cases are very low, but then we will have to take action in the all the autumn to take action in the all the autumn to get it down again. but the critical thing is to keep it under control —— the early autumn. in this period, i articulated what i regarded as the government strategy, which was we suppress the virus until a vaccine can make us safe. after articulating that a few times, i got asked by number 10 not to say it because we didn't know we would get a vaccine. but i was confident by this point that we would get one and anyway, i couldn't see any other way through this without far too many deaths. way through this without far too many deaths-— way through this without far too man deaths. ~ , ., ., ,~' _ many deaths. when were you asked by number 10 many deaths. when were you asked by numberto not— many deaths. when were you asked by number 10 not to _ many deaths. when were you asked by number 10 not to say _ many deaths. when were you asked by number 10 not to say it? _ many deaths. when were you asked by number10 not to say it? i— many deaths. when were you asked by number10 not to say it? i can't- number10 not to say it? i can't remember. _ number10 not to say it? i can't remember. it — number10 not to say it? i can't remember, it was _ number10 not to say it? i can't remember, it was in _ number10 not to say it? i can't remember, it was in a - number10 not to say it? i can't remember, it was in a press - remember, it was in a press conference, we should be able to find the paperwork if we dig further for it. just assist us roughly. it will have been in a press conference

injuly or august. will have been in a press conference in july or august-— in july or august. your statement sa s in in july or august. your statement says in terms _ in july or august. your statement says in terms that _ in july or august. your statement says in terms that you _ in july or august. your statement says in terms that you believe - in july or august. your statement i says in terms that you believe step three _ says in terms that you believe step three of— says in terms that you believe step three of the — says in terms that you believe step three of the road _ says in terms that you believe step three of the road map _ says in terms that you believe step three of the road map went - says in terms that you believe step three of the road map went too - says in terms that you believe step| three of the road map went too far. which _ three of the road map went too far. which tends — three of the road map went too far. which tends to _ three of the road map went too far. which tends to suggest _ three of the road map went too far. which tends to suggest that - three of the road map went too far. which tends to suggest that your. which tends to suggest that your concerns— which tends to suggest that your concerns were _ which tends to suggest that your concerns were not _ which tends to suggest that your concerns were not reflected - which tends to suggest that your concerns were not reflected in. which tends to suggest that youri concerns were not reflected in the outcome — concerns were not reflected in the outcome of — concerns were not reflected in the outcome of that _ concerns were not reflected in the outcome of that road _ concerns were not reflected in the outcome of that road map - concerns were not reflected in the| outcome of that road map because step three — outcome of that road map because step three had _ outcome of that road map because step three had been _ outcome of that road map because step three had been promulgatedi outcome of that road map because i step three had been promulgated can make you _ step three had been promulgated can make you thought _ step three had been promulgated can make you thought they _ step three had been promulgated can make you thought they went - step three had been promulgated can make you thought they went too - step three had been promulgated can make you thought they went too far, | make you thought they went too far, but it _ make you thought they went too far, but it couldn't — make you thought they went too far, but it couldn't be _ make you thought they went too far, but it couldn't be reversed. - but it couldn't be reversed. certainly _ but it couldn't be reversed. certainly not _ but it couldn't be reversed. certainly not fully - but it couldn't be reversed. i certainly not fully reflected. but it couldn't be reversed. - certainly not fully reflected. but as throughout the autumn, the prime minister balanced economic and health considerations and i made the health considerations and i made the health arguments as well as i could. so this was an early precursor to the much more involved debates over september and october. [10 the much more involved debates over september and october.— the much more involved debates over september and october. do you recall ons data to be _ september and october. do you recall ons data to be released _ september and october. do you recall ons data to be released on _ september and october. do you recall ons data to be released on the - september and october. do you recall ons data to be released on the 29th i ons data to be released on the 29th ofjuly? _ ons data to be released on the 29th ofjul ? , , , ofjuly? yes, i remember the number ofjuly? yes, i remember the number of cases bottomed _ ofjuly? yes, i remember the number of cases bottomed out _ ofjuly? yes, i remember the number of cases bottomed out on _ ofjuly? yes, i remember the number of cases bottomed out on the - ofjuly? yes, i remember the number of cases bottomed out on the 13th - ofjuly? yes, i remember the number of cases bottomed out on the 13th of| of cases bottomed out on the 13th of july and i remember the ons which came out a little bit later, but was more robust, the ons survey would come out shortly after that. the ons

data of that — come out shortly after that. the ons data of that date _ come out shortly after that. the ons data of that date showed, _ come out shortly after that. the ons data of that date showed, accordingl data of that date showed, according to your _ data of that date showed, according to your statement _ data of that date showed, according to your statement and _ data of that date showed, according to your statement and it _ data of that date showed, according to your statement and it is - data of that date showed, according to your statement and it is of- to your statement and it is of course — to your statement and it is of course right, _ to your statement and it is of course right, that _ to your statement and it is of course right, that cases- to your statement and it is of course right, that cases had. to your statement and it is of- course right, that cases had risen to use _ course right, that cases had risen to use your— course right, that cases had risen to use your word, _ course right, that cases had risen to use your word, dramatically. l course right, that cases had risen. to use your word, dramatically. yes, from a very — to use your word, dramatically. yes, from a very low— to use your word, dramatically. yes, from a very low base, _ to use your word, dramatically. yes, from a very low base, but _ to use your word, dramatically. from a very low base, but yes. to use your word, dramatically. yes, from a very low base, but yes. did . from a very low base, but yes. did ou know from a very low base, but yes. did you know in advance of the eat out to help— you know in advance of the eat out to help 0ut— you know in advance of the eat out to help out scheme? _ you know in advance of the eat out to help out scheme? no, - you know in advance of the eat out to help out scheme?— you know in advance of the eat out to help out scheme? no, not ahead of its announcement _ to help out scheme? no, not ahead of its announcement on _ to help out scheme? no, not ahead of its announcement on the _ to help out scheme? no, not ahead of its announcement on the 8th _ to help out scheme? no, not ahead of its announcement on the 8th of- to help out scheme? no, not ahead of its announcement on the 8th ofjuly. . its announcement on the 8th ofjuly. in fact, cases were still falling at that point. did in fact, cases were still falling at that point-— that point. did you raise your concern when _ that point. did you raise your concern when the _ that point. did you raise your concern when the scheme . that point. did you raise your| concern when the scheme was announced _ concern when the scheme was announced and _ concern when the scheme was announced and of— concern when the scheme was announced and of course, - concern when the scheme was announced and of course, it. concern when the scheme was l announced and of course, it was announced — announced and of course, it was announced in— announced and of course, it was announced in advance _ announced and of course, it was announced in advance of- announced and of course, it was announced in advance of the - announced in advance of the beginning _ announced in advance of the beginning of— announced in advance of the beginning of august - announced in advance of the beginning of august and - announced in advance of the i beginning of august and meant announced in advance of the - beginning of august and meant to take effect — beginning of august and meant to take effect. the _ beginning of august and meant to take effect. the 3rd _ beginning of august and meant to take effect. the 3rd of— beginning of august and meant to take effect. the 3rd of august, i. take effect. the 3rd of august, i think _ take effect. the 3rd of august, i think. tuesdays, _ take effect. the 3rd of august, i think. tuesdays, wednesdays, i think. tuesdays, wednesdays, thursdays _ think. tuesdays, wednesdays, thursdays for _ think. tuesdays, wednesdays, thursdays for four _ think. tuesdays, wednesdays, thursdays for four weeks - think. tuesdays, wednesdays, thursdays for four weeks of. think. tuesdays, wednesdays, - thursdays for four weeks of august. i thursdays for four weeks of august. i didn't— thursdays for four weeks of august. ididn't know— thursdays for four weeks of august. i didn't know about _ thursdays for four weeks of august. i didn't know about the _ thursdays for four weeks of august. i didn't know about the eat - thursdays for four weeks of august. i didn't know about the eat out - thursdays for four weeks of august. i didn't know about the eat out to l i didn't know about the eat out to help out scheme until the cabinet meeting on the morning of its announcement. and it was one of a package of loosening is. we were doing a number of things to bring

back a bit of freedom over the summer. figs back a bit of freedom over the summer. �* , back a bit of freedom over the summer-— back a bit of freedom over the summer. a ,, . ., , ., ,, ., summer. as the secretary of state for health. — summer. as the secretary of state for health, had _ summer. as the secretary of state for health, had you _ summer. as the secretary of state for health, had you been - summer. as the secretary of state for health, had you been told - summer. as the secretary of state for health, had you been told and| for health, had you been told and had you _ for health, had you been told and had you been— for health, had you been told and had you been asked _ for health, had you been told and had you been asked for— for health, had you been told and had you been asked for your- for health, had you been told and| had you been asked for your view, what _ had you been asked for your view, what would — had you been asked for your view, what would you _ had you been asked for your view, what would you have _ had you been asked for your view, what would you have said? - had you been asked for your view, what would you have said? i- had you been asked for your view, what would you have said? i don't| what would you have said? i don't know _ what would you have said? i don't know well, — what would you have said? i don't know well, mr— what would you have said? i don't know. well, mr hancock, - what would you have said? i don't know. well, mr hancock, you - what would you have said? i don'ti know. well, mr hancock, you have told the _ know. well, mr hancock, you have told the inquiry— know. well, mr hancock, you have told the inquiry that _ know. well, mr hancock, you have told the inquiry that there - know. well, mr hancock, you have told the inquiry that there is - know. well, mr hancock, you have told the inquiry that there is in - told the inquiry that there is in this debate _ told the inquiry that there is in this debate between _ told the inquiry that there is in this debate between caution . told the inquiry that there is in i this debate between caution and allowing release, _ this debate between caution and allowing release, and _ this debate between caution and allowing release, and it - this debate between caution and allowing release, and it is - this debate between caution and allowing release, and it is a - allowing release, and it is a difficult _ allowing release, and it is a difficult debate, _ allowing release, and it is a difficult debate, a - allowing release, and it is a difficult debate, a public. allowing release, and it is a - difficult debate, a public health view which _ difficult debate, a public health view which you _ difficult debate, a public health view which you as _ difficult debate, a public health view which you as the - difficult debate, a public health| view which you as the secretary difficult debate, a public health i view which you as the secretary of state _ view which you as the secretary of state are — view which you as the secretary of state are plainly— view which you as the secretary of state are plainly on _ view which you as the secretary of state are plainly on the _ view which you as the secretary of state are plainly on the side - view which you as the secretary of state are plainly on the side of- state are plainly on the side of caution — state are plainly on the side of caution. because _ state are plainly on the side of caution. because that - state are plainly on the side of caution. because that is- state are plainly on the side of caution. because that is your. state are plainly on the side of. caution. because that is yourjob. what _ caution. because that is yourjob. what mattered _ caution. because that is yourjob. what mattered in— caution. because that is yourjob. what mattered in the _ caution. because that is yourjob. what mattered in the opening - caution. because that is yourjob. i what mattered in the opening then was that there wasn't overall too much. and in the end, there was overall too much. which individual items of opening you did or didn't do is second order compared to the overall amount of openings. i was at the same time campaigning to

internally get funding so that those who tested positive would isolate, which we eventually put in place in september. and i thought that was the most important use of money. did ou the most important use of money. did you express serious reservations about _ you express serious reservations about the — you express serious reservations about the scheme _ you express serious reservations about the scheme once - you express serious reservations about the scheme once she - you express serious reservations i about the scheme once she became aware _ about the scheme once she became aware of— about the scheme once she became aware of it. — about the scheme once she became aware of it. given— about the scheme once she became aware of it, given your— about the scheme once she became aware of it, given your well— knowni aware of it, given your well— known position _ aware of it, given your well— known position as — aware of it, given your well— known position as secretary _ aware of it, given your well— known position as secretary of _ aware of it, given your well— known position as secretary of state - aware of it, given your well— known position as secretary of state for l position as secretary of state for health, — position as secretary of state for health, on — position as secretary of state for health, on the _ position as secretary of state for health, on the balance _ position as secretary of state for health, on the balance between| health, on the balance between release — health, on the balance between release and _ health, on the balance between release and positive _ health, on the balance between release and positive promotionl health, on the balance between. release and positive promotion of eating _ release and positive promotion of eating out — release and positive promotion of eating out and _ release and positive promotion of eating out and caution? - release and positive promotion of eating out and caution? once- release and positive promotion of eating out and caution?— release and positive promotion of eating out and caution? once it was announced. — eating out and caution? once it was announced. it _ eating out and caution? once it was announced, it was _ eating out and caution? once it was announced, it was a _ eating out and caution? once it was announced, it was a done _ eating out and caution? once it was announced, it was a done deal - eating out and caution? once it was announced, it was a done deal that| announced, it was a done deal that it was government policy. i expressed caution and argued very strongly against its extension at the end of august. and i don't think its extension was ever seriously a prospect. 50 its extension was ever seriously a ”rosect. ,., its extension was ever seriously a --rosect. i. ., , prospect. so you did argue very stronal prospect. so you did argue very strongly against _ prospect. so you did argue very strongly against it? _ prospect. so you did argue very strongly against it? i _ prospect. so you did argue very strongly against it? i argued . prospect. so you did argue very. strongly against it? i argued that it should not _ strongly against it? i argued that

it should not be _ strongly against it? i argued that it should not be extended. - strongly against it? i argued that it should not be extended. it - strongly against it? i argued thatj it should not be extended. it was strongly against it? i argued that l it should not be extended. it was a serious issue, _ it should not be extended. it was a serious issue, though, _ it should not be extended. it was a serious issue, though, was - it should not be extended. it was a serious issue, though, was it - it should not be extended. it was a serious issue, though, was it not? | serious issue, though, was it not? in serious issue, though, was it not? in terms— serious issue, though, was it not? in terms of— serious issue, though, was it not? in terms of the _ serious issue, though, was it not? in terms of the possible, - serious issue, though, was it not? in terms of the possible, and - serious issue, though, was it not? in terms of the possible, and i- serious issue, though, was it not? j in terms of the possible, and i will not get _ in terms of the possible, and i will not get into— in terms of the possible, and i will not get into a _ in terms of the possible, and i will not get into a debate _ in terms of the possible, and i will not get into a debate about - in terms of the possible, and i will not get into a debate about what l in terms of the possible, and i will. not get into a debate about what the impact _ not get into a debate about what the impact actually — not get into a debate about what the impact actually was _ not get into a debate about what the impact actually was in _ not get into a debate about what the impact actually was in terms - not get into a debate about what the impact actually was in terms of - impact actually was in terms of prevalence, _ impact actually was in terms of prevalence, but _ impact actually was in terms of prevalence, but in _ impact actually was in terms of prevalence, but in terms - impact actually was in terms of prevalence, but in terms of - impact actually was in terms of prevalence, but in terms of ati impact actually was in terms of - prevalence, but in terms of at least a perception— prevalence, but in terms of at least a perception and _ prevalence, but in terms of at least a perception and intervention - prevalence, but in terms of at leasti a perception and intervention areas, it was— a perception and intervention areas, it was a _ a perception and intervention areas, it was a serious— a perception and intervention areas, it was a serious problem. _ a perception and intervention areas, it was a serious problem. in - it was a serious problem. intervention areas, it was it was a serious problem._ intervention areas, it was unhelpful that the state should be subsidising people to go out at the same time as asking people to be more cautious. it was serious. well, what i would say is that there has been undue focus on this one item. and where the then chancellor is absolutely right in his statement as he argues that this was not the sole cause of the second wave. mr that this was not the sole cause of the second wave.— that this was not the sole cause of the second wave. mr hancock, i have deliberately — the second wave. mr hancock, i have deliberately asked _ the second wave. mr hancock, i have deliberately asked you... _ the second wave. mr hancock, i have deliberately asked you... what - deliberately asked you... what matters what _ deliberately asked you... what matters what chris _ deliberately asked you... what matters what chris whitty - deliberately asked you... what matters what chris whitty at i deliberately asked you..- matters what chris whitty at time called the r budget, the overall set of measures. my goal was to keep r below one. if keeping r below one

with a tighter set of measures elsewhere, but with this scheme in place, if that could have kept r below one, i would have been happy with it. and if within the debate and negotiation, if it was easier to keep the chancellor in a good place on other measures that were necessary in order to keep r below one as a whole, then tactically, that would be something i would be happy with. what matters here is the overall budget and keeping r below one. in the end, that loosening was too much. eat out to help out was just one of many measures and in effect, with hindsight, you can go through and look at ten measures and say that in the end, we could have afforded seven of these. and whether eat out to help out is on that list or not is a moot point. that was the attitude that i took. i wanted to keep r below one.—

keep r below one. 129148 as a whatsapp _ keep r below one. 129148 as a whatsapp from _ keep r below one. 129148 as a whatsapp from you _ keep r below one. 129148 as a whatsapp from you to - keep r below one. 129148 as a whatsapp from you to sign i keep r below one. 129148 as a whatsapp from you to sign in | keep r below one. 129148 as a - whatsapp from you to sign in case. i 'ust whatsapp from you to sign in case. i just want— whatsapp from you to sign in case. i just want to — whatsapp from you to sign in case. i just want to let — whatsapp from you to sign in case. i just want to let you _ whatsapp from you to sign in case. i just want to let you know— whatsapp from you to sign in case. i just want to let you know directly- just want to let you know directly we have — just want to let you know directly we have had _ just want to let you know directly we have had lots— just want to let you know directly we have had lots of— just want to let you know directly we have had lots of feedback - just want to let you know directly| we have had lots of feedback that eat 0ut _ we have had lots of feedback that eat out to — we have had lots of feedback that eat out to help _ we have had lots of feedback that eat out to help out _ we have had lots of feedback that eat out to help out was - we have had lots of feedback that eat out to help out was causing i eat out to help out was causing problems— eat out to help out was causing problems in— eat out to help out was causing problems in our— eat out to help out was causing problems in our intervention - eat out to help out was causing. problems in our intervention areas. i problems in our intervention areas. i have _ problems in our intervention areas. i have kept— problems in our intervention areas. i have kept it — problems in our intervention areas. i have kept it out _ problems in our intervention areas. i have kept it out of _ problems in our intervention areas. i have kept it out of the _ problems in our intervention areas. i have kept it out of the news, - problems in our intervention areas. i have kept it out of the news, this| i have kept it out of the news, this is serious — i have kept it out of the news, this is serious. this _ i have kept it out of the news, this is serious. this is _ i have kept it out of the news, this is serious. this is you, _ i have kept it out of the news, this is serious. this is you, mr- i have kept it out of the news, thisl is serious. this is you, mr hancock. have _ is serious. this is you, mr hancock. have you _ is serious. this is you, mr hancock. have you told — is serious. this is you, mr hancock. have you told rishi? _ is serious. this is you, mr hancock. have you told rishi? he _ is serious. this is you, mr hancock. have you told rishi? he says, - is serious. this is you, mr hancock. have you told rishi? he says, i- have you told rishi? he says, i don't _ have you told rishi? he says, i don't think— have you told rishi? he says, i don't think you _ have you told rishi? he says, i don't think you can _ have you told rishi? he says, i don't think you can afford - have you told rishi? he says, i don't think you can afford to i don't think you can afford to extended _ don't think you can afford to extended. yes, _ don't think you can afford to extended. yes, we - don't think you can afford to extended. yes, we have - don't think you can afford to| extended. yes, we have told treasury. _ extended. yes, we have told treasury. we _ extended. yes, we have told treasury, we have _ extended. yes, we have told treasury, we have been- extended. yes, we have told - treasury, we have been protecting them _ treasury, we have been protecting them and — treasury, we have been protecting them and thankfully, _ treasury, we have been protecting them and thankfully, it _ treasury, we have been protecting them and thankfully, it hasn't - them and thankfully, it hasn't bubbled — them and thankfully, it hasn't bubbled up~ _ them and thankfully, it hasn't bubbled up. so— them and thankfully, it hasn't bubbled up. so the _ them and thankfully, it hasn't bubbled up. so the position i them and thankfully, it hasn't l bubbled up. so the position you them and thankfully, it hasn't - bubbled up. so the position you took was that— bubbled up. so the position you took was that indeed, _ bubbled up. so the position you took was that indeed, it _ bubbled up. so the position you took was that indeed, it was _ bubbled up. so the position you took was that indeed, it was serious, - was that indeed, it was serious, that is— was that indeed, it was serious, that is your— was that indeed, it was serious, that is your word. _ was that indeed, it was serious, that is your word. that - was that indeed, it was serious, that is your word. that you - was that indeed, it was serious, that is your word. that you had i was that indeed, it was serious, - that is your word. that you had told the treasury. — that is your word. that you had told the treasury, but _ that is your word. that you had told the treasury, but whilst _ that is your word. that you had told the treasury, but whilst you - that is your word. that you had told the treasury, but whilst you did - that is your word. that you had told the treasury, but whilst you did so, you protected — the treasury, but whilst you did so, you protected the _ the treasury, but whilst you did so, you protected the treasury - the treasury, but whilst you did so, you protected the treasury in - the treasury, but whilst you did so, you protected the treasury in the i you protected the treasury in the news. _ you protected the treasury in the news. you — you protected the treasury in the news, you concealed _ you protected the treasury in the news, you concealed your- you protected the treasury in the l news, you concealed your concerns about _ news, you concealed your concerns about the _ news, you concealed your concerns about the seriousness _ news, you concealed your concerns about the seriousness of— news, you concealed your concerns about the seriousness of the - news, you concealed your concerns| about the seriousness of the impact of this— about the seriousness of the impact of this scheme _ about the seriousness of the impact of this scheme and _ about the seriousness of the impact of this scheme and you _ about the seriousness of the impact of this scheme and you expressed l of this scheme and you expressed thanks. _ of this scheme and you expressed thanks, gratitude _ of this scheme and you expressed thanks, gratitude that _ of this scheme and you expressed thanks, gratitude that it - of this scheme and you expressed thanks, gratitude that it had - of this scheme and you expressed thanks, gratitude that it had not i thanks, gratitude that it had not come _ thanks, gratitude that it had not come to— thanks, gratitude that it had not come to light _ thanks, gratitude that it had not come to light-— come to light. that is because i abide by collective _ come to light. that is because i i abide by collective responsibility. and i was being encouraged by various journalists who would

presume that i was against it to criticise the then chancellor. but i believe that government is a team effort and so i didn't want that to become a row in public. i mean, you can see during the pandemic the corrosive effect of lea ks. can see during the pandemic the corrosive effect of leaks. and i was not part of that and i don't appreciate government by leak. hence i abide by collective responsibility on and off the record, that is what i am saying there. figs on and off the record, that is what i am saying there.— i am saying there. as we are all aware, i am saying there. as we are all aware. in _ i am saying there. as we are all aware. in the — i am saying there. as we are all aware, in the autumn, - i am saying there. as we are all aware, in the autumn, rates - aware, in the autumn, rates continued _ aware, in the autumn, rates continued to _ aware, in the autumn, rates continued to go _ aware, in the autumn, rates continued to go up, - aware, in the autumn, rates. continued to go up, prevalence aware, in the autumn, rates- continued to go up, prevalence went up. continued to go up, prevalence went up there _ continued to go up, prevalence went up there was — continued to go up, prevalence went up. there was a _ continued to go up, prevalence went up. there was a rule _ continued to go up, prevalence went up. there was a rule of— continued to go up, prevalence went up. there was a rule of six _ up. there was a rule of six introduced. _ up. there was a rule of six introduced. in— up. there was a rule of six introduced. in the - up. there was a rule of six introduced. in the context| up. there was a rule of six i introduced. in the context of up. there was a rule of six - introduced. in the context of this

debate _ introduced. in the context of this debate between _ introduced. in the context of this debate between relaxation, - introduced. in the context of this - debate between relaxation, promoting the economy— debate between relaxation, promoting the economy and — debate between relaxation, promoting the economy and caution _ debate between relaxation, promoting the economy and caution in— debate between relaxation, promoting the economy and caution in keeping i debate between relaxation, promoting the economy and caution in keeping r| the economy and caution in keeping r below— the economy and caution in keeping r below one. _ the economy and caution in keeping r below one. did — the economy and caution in keeping r below one, did the _ the economy and caution in keeping r below one, did the prime _ the economy and caution in keeping r below one, did the prime minister- below one, did the prime minister take a _ below one, did the prime minister take a consistent _ below one, did the prime minister take a consistent approach - below one, did the prime minister take a consistent approach to - below one, did the prime minister take a consistent approach to one | below one, did the prime minister. take a consistent approach to one or the other— take a consistent approach to one or the other sides _ take a consistent approach to one or the other sides of— take a consistent approach to one or the other sides of that _ take a consistent approach to one or the other sides of that argument? i i think it's fair to say that the prime ministerfelt i think it's fair to say that the prime minister felt strongly the arguments for the protection of health and the arguments for liberty and protection of the economy, my particular beef was that i didn't think there was a trade—off at all and there wasn't, it wasn't an either or and my intense frustration was that economists at the treasury and elsewhere couldn't see that although you could, the second—round

consequence of that