generally, it was bland, stodgy and overcooked. but all of that has changed and now this city is a gastronomic destination. my guest today, michel roux, has played a big part in that transformation. his restaurant, le gavroche, has won michelin stars and international acclaim, but now, he's closing it. so is this the end of a golden age of master chefs and fine dining? michel roux, welcome to hardtalk. it is a great pleasure to be sitting in this restaurant, one of the most famous in london.

been in your family for the best part of six decades. the countdown to closure has begun. how do you feel about that? incredibly mixed emotions. it's... it's obviously happiness because there's light at the end of the tunnel, and by that, i mean not in a negative way, it's sort of... ..getting control of my life again. and then very, very sad emotions because it's the end of an era. and it's... i also feel sad and emotional for all my team here. some of which, in fact, most of which i deem as family. and some of them, we've grown up together, basically. so very, very mixed emotions. and the last — the last week, i know i am going to be a wreck. why?

why are you shutting down? because you could fill every table here for the foreseeable future. everybody wants to come and eat here if they can afford it. so why shut it? yeah, i mean, the business is successful and it's... ..it is going well. reservations are very good — especially since i announced that we're closing, it's gone crazy. but there are many reasons. i mean, first of all, i'm getting on a bit. i'm 63 and i'm thinking, "what next? "do i want to sign up to another lease?" the lease is coming to an end. so it made me reflect and think. i've got now two wonderful grandchildren that i'm thinking, "well, i'd like to spend "a little bit more time with them." there's also a tinge of regret that i didn't spend enough time with my daughter there. so i'm thinking i'd like to spend more time with my grandchildren.

but talking about family is interesting because this place was founded, albeit in a different location, by your father, albert, and your uncle, michel. it is your family treasure. and, it has to be said, the daughter you talk about is also now a top chef in london. ko many people would think, "why not hand it to her, keep the roux name here?" yeah. so we've had that conversation with my daughter and son—in—law, because he's also an amazing chef, and they work together in their restaurant in notting hill. and we've had this conversation several times and they have decided to go their route — they want to do their own thing, which i 100% totally respect. and i actually sometimes wonder and think, "what would i be doing if i'd done the same thing "and said to my old man, �*no, dad, i'm not interested'?" but you didn't. let's take it back to the beginning. let's take it back to your dad

and your uncle, michel. they came to london. i mean, they...they were in the food business because their parents were in the food business. yes. they saw an opportunity to leave france and set up here in the uk. and at the time, in the late 1960s, nobody could pretend that london was a gastronomic centre. quite the opposite. what do you think they saw in this city at the time that made it feel like an opportunity? yeah, well, dad fell in love with great britain back in the sort of, i would say, late �*50s. but i wonder why he fell in love with a country which at the time was famous for its stodgy, bland, over—boiled food, which to tastes in france, for example, was absolutely disgusting. yes, well... did he think he could change britain and its cuisine? this was his big break. in 1960, he got thejob

that set him up in the uk or in great britain, and that was to be private chef to the cazalet family, who were horse trainers to the queen mum, and that was in the fairlawne estate in kent. and he stayed seven years there and... ..that, i think, is where he saw that gap in the market. he realised that actually, yes, you're right, the food scene in great britain was dire. and in 1967, he went to see his boss... ..the cazalets, and said, "look, i'd like to open my own restaurant." and they were overjoyed, gave him £500. and you can imagine — £500 in �*67 was a lot of money as a going away present to set him up, and uncle, to open le gavroche. and i think they were very crafty, the two brothers — they saw a huge potential here

and a huge gap in the market. it took off. mm. michelin stars arrived before too long. first one, then two. yeah. you trained in paris, but you decided to come back and, ultimately, you were trained and groomed to take over. do you think you changed, fundamentally changed, le gavroche from what had been set up by your dad and your uncle? no, and i think that's part of the reason of the success and the fact that we're still here today. i think its key to stay true to your roots. so, you come here and it's unmistakably french. all the... ..or the vast majority of the menu is based on french classics, classic technique as well, although i have evolved it and so it's a lot lighter. we use a heck of a lot less cream and butter than my dad did, and

the sauces are much lighter, the portions are more adapt. it's less formal too. it's... yes, oh, gosh. one of the first things i changed was to drop the tie rule. so gentlemen no longer had to wear a tie. and i remember my old man being absolutely furious and saying, "this is ridiculous, we're going to lose business. "this is terrible." and it didn't. and then three or four years after that, i dropped the jacket rule as well. and he went he went barmy. i mean, he really did. he said, "that's it, it's the end." and i knew i'd won him over when he bowled in for dinner one day without his jacket on. they chuckle you may not need to wear a tie in here, but you certainly need to have a wallet... yes. ..that is fairly well—filled. if we look at the tasting menu, it runs into the hundreds of pounds, hundreds and hundreds of dollars. people still come, those that can afford it. but is it part of your decision to leave that maybe you're sick of feeding the rich and the ultra rich?

the rich and ultra rich, yes, they come here most definitely. and we certainly wouldn't be here if they didn't. but i would say the majority of people are not rich or ultra rich. they save up for a special occasion. and that's what makes it, i think, special. when i come, go around the tables and i meet and greet and talk to every guest, you can tell and you can see, and actually some of the guests will actually say out loud, "we've been saving for this for x amount of time," sometimes years. mm, mm. and just as i say it, it's giving me goose bumps. i think that's wonderful, that's beautiful, that's incredible. and that they go away with memories for the rest of their lives. of course, the expectations are high when you're paying that much money, even for one of your signature classics, the souffle, you're still paying... what is the price of the souffle right now? it's £20 now, the cheese souffle, the souffle suissesse. and by the way...

so it's a bit of flour, egg, butter. it's over 20 quid. so getting on for $30. yeah. and it's got to be good. of course it is. so what i want to get to now is the degree to which your passion for food has to be utterly extreme. the perfectionism that you have had to train yourself with and develop over time. how extreme is it? it is extreme. it's very, very tough. that is part of the reason as well why i...i took time to reflect and think, "do i want to carry on with that pressure?" because it is, it's notjust pressure of running a business and keeping the standard and the stars and making sure that everybody leaves here with fantastic memories. and it's not on a weekly basis, it's not on a daily basis, it's not on an hourly basis. it's every single plate of food that leaves the kitchen. and that pressure does get to you after a while. you know, i've been at the helm now for 35 years,

longer than my father was. 35 years of relentless pressure, some sleepless nights and just worrying and thinking. and every night when i go home, i think about the service and i think about every single plate. and i think, "could we have done better here? "how could we have done this better?" and, "was that really perfect?" so i'm constantly analysing that, and that pressure really does tell. you're called chef. some would say that the absolute top international chefs, such as yourself, are, in a way, tyrants. that, actually, the very fact of running a kitchen to that level of perfection turns you into somebody very difficult. yeah. do you think there's truth in that? i think there...there can be. there's still some dinosaurs out there. and by that, i mean people that run their kitchens like tyrants. and i think... bullying is an issue in this industry. i think it...it was.

but as i said, there are still some dinosaurs out there. and it is something that has to be addressed, especially now, because we are, i say "we" as an industry, are incredibly short—staffed and we need to attract some more people in. and if our industry is being portrayed as... ..or our chefs are being portrayed as tyrants and as bullies, then we have to point them out and say, you know, "that's wrong." well, you don't have to look too far. i mean, you were mentor, in a sense, to one of the great, young — slightly younger than you — chefs in this country, marco pierre white. mm. and marco wrote in his memoir that he had rages, that he had described his kitchen for a time as "my theatre of cruelty." mm. you worked very closely with him. and then rene redzepi, whom i have actually

interviewed on this programme. into absolute rage with staff. have you, michel roux, done that, too? as a young chef, when i took over from my father, i would describe myself as an angry chef, yes. and what was the. . .what was the worst it came to? expletives. rage, shouting. physical abuse? no, never. and that should never be tolerated. absolutely never. and... and i think back on those years and i think what an angry, bad person i was which... ..at the time, i suppose... and that was the time that you were alluding to when marco first set up his restaurant. that's right. he was, you know, he was under extreme pressure as well. but there is no excuse for that, especially, especially now. and we run... ifeel we — i —

run a good kitchen. one of the pressures on you as a top chef is this — and you alluded to it earlier — this system of grading restaurants by michelin and their stars. and you have won michelin stars. right now, is this a...? two. two star. how much does that matter to you? it is a massive, massive pressure on chefs. these michelin stars are seen as the holy grail and their quest to achieve those stars. and i say to all young chefs starting out, you know, don't cook for the michelin guide. cook for your guests. get that right. make sure that your guests are happy and they come back and then you have a prosperous business. and if you get that right, then the plaudits will come and the michelin guide will come and reward you. but i think a lot of chefs

cook for their own ego. and it's just wrong. and you can see it, actually. when i go and eat out, i can see through the food and i can tell if the chef is just cooking for their own ego or if they're cooking for their guests. here we sit, surrounded by your tables. tonight they will be full, this place will be heaving. what does it make you feel when you see a customer who, when they receive their first plate of the evening, immediately gets their phone out and starts taking pictures and putting it on instagram? michel chuckles i-i can't. really, can't really knock that because i do the same thing! they laugh but you see, i... what are we doing to food? yeah. is it art or is it something that, actually, is all about taste? first and foremost, food in great restaurants should be about the taste, and that i am 100% unequivocal about. and it should be taste.

because time and time again, and i'm sure you've been to some of these restaurants as well, where the food looks absolutely beautiful, so, so beautiful, you want to put it up on the wall and not taste it, and you go, "wow, this is great." and you're salivating and you take a spoonful of it and you go, "what does it taste of? eh? nothing." so style over substance. give me substance any time, any day of the week. so that's—that's important. but going back to the phone, i do it, but i do it for memories. i don't do it to post on instagram or anything, because i'm getting of a certain age that i forget. so i tolerate it. but if people do get their phone out too much, then we might have a little quiet word and say, "0i, eat whilst it's hot, please." let's get to something that is hitting notjust you in your business, but all restaurants right now, and that is a very tough economic climate. mm. and actually it's been a climate building for years. and perhaps you were knocked back and many others were, more than anything,

by the covid pandemic. and ijust wonder, as you reflect now on what that meant to your business and many other restaurant businesses in this country and around the world, just how tough was it? it was incredibly tough. and i will never forget those days where i had to come in here to check the premises, obviously, for insurance reasons, and to make sure everything was all right and to come in to... because you shut down. for the first time in yourfamily history with le gavroche, it shut its doors. you had to, of course. we had to. lockdown was lockdown. but to come in here... ..lights out, the smell of a stale restaurant, the dust everywhere made me weep. did it? and made me cry. i sat down over there on one of the banquettes and just put my head in my hands and just thought, "what the hell? why, why, why?" and it was very, very tough. and i was within sort of moments of saying,

"well, i'm closing. what's the point?" do you think, not so much here, because as you've said, you could fill this restaurant every night if you wanted to go on and on and on, but do you think for the industry as a whole, it actually hasn't truly properly recovered? because, of course, since then we've had a cost of living crisis, we've had energy costs spiralling, food prices spiralling. and if you look at the figures, the numbers of restaurants in london and across the united kingdom, which are closing their doors forever per year, is soaring right now. it is. restaurants and pubs. restaurants, pubs, clubs, etc. closures are happening all the time. and you're absolutely right. i mean, obviously, we came out of lockdown and there was a huge surge. but then there was the staffing crisis, there was obviously energy prices which went skyrocketing and there was no help for our businesses in energy prices or very, very little, and rent and rates still skyrocketing and inflation. it made me laugh when you saw the headline at 10%

when actually food inflation was nearer 20%, and itjust went on and on. and then let's not forget as well, a lot of restaurants, a lot of businesses had taken out loans that needed to be repaid. so it is very tough and i think there will be more closures, and it's a very, very difficult time. i really, really do think that the government could help the hospitality industry now. we need it now. we're one of the biggest employers, the hospitality industry in the uk. we bring in so much. people fly into to the uk, tourists, and they want to eat and they want to have great times. they want to spend their money with us. and the uk government at the moment is... ..not reacting. i've got to ask you one very specific question. you've several times talked about the difficulties of hiring the right talented, professional staff. one issue may be because historically this industry —

and it has to be said, your restaurant — hasn't paid people terribly well. in fact, going back to 2015, it was revealed that you here were actually, if you added up all the hours worked, were not paying people even the national minimum wage. yeah. how could you be asking your clients, your dining guests to pay bills of £200, £300 per meal, and yet not even pay your staff a living wage? that's correct. and that that came down to me. i took the blame. i put my hand up and apologised. i took my eye off the ball and the people that were in place. we had systems but... i apologised profusely and it was not intentional. there are systems now in place that means that this won't happen again and everybody that was owed money was paid, paid back. right now, obviously, your wages are better because you say you learned

a lesson, but right now, is it still really difficult to hire the right kind of people? yes. yes, incredibly difficult. and... and is that, sorry to interrupt, but ijust wonder, in your view, is that a direct result of brexit, as you see it? because you used to get many young, talented kitchen staff from europe. it's harder now. most definitely. it's a combination, i would say, of lockdown and brexit. i would say, if i were to put it in in percentage terms, i would say it's maybe 40% lockdown, 60% brexit. and by that, i mean lockdown has made a lot of people change theirjobs and realise that, actually, they can earn a living maybe delivering for amazon or suchlike, and not having to work on the weekends or unsociable

hours. but then brexit was the big, big spanner in the works. and that certainly, certainly hurt us in the hospitality industry, but notjust us. i mean, look at care industry, look at nursing, all of that. i want to end, because we're nearly out of time, i want to end with some thoughts from you about where your cooking goes from here and where the restaurant business goes from here. let me ask you this, do you feel that there's still room for innovation, for new approaches, new techniques in cooking, or given the immense diversity of tastes and foods and restaurants we have in a city like london now, are we sort of reaching peak foodieness? no, there's still more to come. i looked at my dad and i thought, "god,

you're so old—fashioned." you know, "there's better ways of doing this, "more, sort of lighter ways." and so i brought that to the restaurant, but still respecting, obviously, my french tradition, french heritage. and my daughter calls me a dinosaur now, so she's evolved as well. but when you go out... i think it's going to be constantly evolving. do you? when you go out today to a new restaurant, do you ever taste something that you think, "my god, i never thought of doing that, "that has blown my mind"? yes. and i think that's wonderful. and i think that that's why i love being a chef and i love this industry. it is because every day is different and there's... it is such a creative industry, or can be, and there are geniuses out there that can create and that will carry on innovating. and that excites me. i think it's wonderful. yeah. final thought. you say the geniuses are out there, they'll carry on. you're not carrying on, you're quitting. and rene redzepi, you know, i went to noma to talk to him, he was winning, every year for

a while, the best restaurant in the world award. he's closing noma and he says he's going to concentrate on his laboratory and food science, not on his restaurant. do you think we are coming to the end of a golden era of the sort of international elite restaurants? no, again, still not. there will always be a place for restaurants like rene�*s or like le gavroche. and i think it will always, always come... and it will always evolve. and by our very nature, chefs, we are inquisitive and we are innovative, and we're always seeking and looking for the next thing. so you're still going to be in a kitchen somewhere, just not this one. just not this one. the roux brand and the name le gavroche is carrying on. and we're going to take le gavroche on the road and we're going to be doing some residencies, notjust in the uk, maybe all over the world. so just watch this space. michel roux, it has

been a pleasure. thanks for being on hardtalk. thank you. hello there. the mostly cloudy and mild conditions that we've had over the weekend will continue into the start of this upcoming week, and there will be some rain about, too — some of it quite heavy across the south on tuesday. by the middle part of the week onwards, it turns very windy with widespread gales developing, and then by the end of the week, it'll be turning colder for most of us, particularly across the north of the uk, with an increasing chance of wintry showers. now, we have a load of weather

fronts poised to push in for monday — one across the northwest of the country with cooler air behind it, another one which is associated with this milder air — and it will be bringing some patchy rain initially to wales, and then into the midlands, northern england at times through the day. there will be some rain, as well, for southern scotland, but brighter for the rest of scotland, northern ireland compared to what we've had over the weekend before this weather front starts to push into the west with some scattered showers. again, 11 to 13 degrees, so quite mild for the time of year, and there will be some glimmers of brightness to the east of high ground. as we head through monday night, though, rain peps up across england and wales, becomes quite heavy and persistent for a time. scotland, northern ireland, clear spells, a few showers. here, it'll be chillier, but less cold further south. does mean tuesday will start quite wet for england and wales, but the rain should clear away eastwards fairly quickly through the day. so, a wet start to much of england and wales tuesday. that rain becomes confined to the southeast, eventually clears away, i think, late in the afternoon. and then, it's brighter for all, the sunny skies

across the northwest pushing down towards the southeast, but there will be some blustery showers across scotland and northern ireland. they will be turning increasingly wintry as the air does turn cooler for many. as we push into wednesday, we pick up brisk westnorthwesterly winds, and this weather front will bring some wet weather to scotland, northern england at times. i think northern ireland, central southern england and wales will see cloud coming and going. a little bit of brightness particularly to all these, but it will be quite a blustery day, and temperatures perhaps up a degree or so for england, wales, northern ireland. still on the cool side across northern scotland. but then, it changes again as we head into thursday, and friday turns very windy, widespread gales developing. 0ur air switches to a more northwesterly, and colder air will push its way southwards on thursday, and certainly on friday and into the following weekend. so, things will be turning cooler, colder towards the end of the week with an increasing chance of wintry showers across northern areas even into the christmas period.

live from london, this is bbc news. tight security outside the court in hong kong as media tycoon and pro—democracy campaigner jimmy lai goes on trial for criticising china's communist leaders. this is the israel—gaza border this morning as the hamas—run health authorities say israeli air strikes have killed 90 people in a single day in the jabalia refugee camp. we have a special report from afghanistan on what could be the bleakest winter in decades because of cuts to humanitarian aid. and later in the programme, all i want for christmas is you — mariah carey makes a fortune at this time of year — we look at her growing festive empire. hello.

i'm sally bundock. a very