gold those urgent situations? gold command _ those urgent situations? gold command in _ those urgent situations? gold command in essence - those urgent situations? gold command in essence was - those urgent situations? gold command in essence was a i those urgent situations? gold command in essence was a tighter class _ command in essence was a tighter class list _ command in essence was a tighter class list of — command in essence was a tighter class list of cabinet secretaries necessary _ class list of cabinet secretaries necessary to make it particular decision — necessary to make it particular decision. gold command and the attendance of gold command change depending on the decision that was required _ depending on the decision that was required to be made. i attended some lold required to be made. i attended some gold command meetings in my videos cabinet _ gold command meetings in my videos cabinet secretary rose and another as i cabinet secretary rose and another as i did _ cabinet secretary rose and another as i did not — cabinet secretary rose and another as i did not. it depended on the decision— as i did not. it depended on the decision that was required to be made _ decision that was required to be made. ., , , decision that was required to be made. . , , . . made. cabinet minutes are a record of discussions _ made. cabinet minutes are a record of discussions taken _ made. cabinet minutes are a record of discussions taken at _ made. cabinet minutes are a record of discussions taken at cabinet - of discussions taken at cabinet meetings and they are published. are they not? meetings and they are published. are the not? ., . meetings and they are published. are they not?- discussions - they not? correct. discussions within gold — they not? correct. discussions within gold command - they not? correct. discussions within gold command were - they not? correct. discussions| within gold command were not they not? correct. discussions - within gold command were not minuted and published. i w; within gold command were not minuted and published-— and published. i my understanding was that gold _ and published. i my understanding was that gold command _ and published. i my understanding was that gold command meetings| was that gold command meetings should _ was that gold command meetings should have been minuted, but if that was— should have been minuted, but if that was not the case, then that would _ that was not the case, then that would have not been usual for government meetings, these should be minuted. _ government meetings, these should be minuted, and, of course, be available _ minuted, and, of course, be available should there be the appropriate request.

ifan if an interested citizen of scotland wish to know what discussions had taken place within gold command that had led to significant decisions that impacted upon people's most fundamental freedoms, that impacted upon people's most fundamentalfreedoms, such that impacted upon people's most fundamental freedoms, such a that impacted upon people's most fundamentalfreedoms, such a citizen would be generally entitled to be able to see how those decisions had been made. would you agree? yes. if it transnires — been made. would you agree? yes. if it transnires to _ been made. would you agree? yes. if it transpires to be the case that gold command meetings were not minuted, it would be difficult for such a citizen to access that information, wouldn't it? it such a citizen to access that information, wouldn't it? it would be difficult. _ information, wouldn't it? it would be difficult, but _ information, wouldn't it? it would be difficult, but of _ information, wouldn't it? it would be difficult, but of course - information, wouldn't it? it would be difficult, but of course they - be difficult, but of course they could — be difficult, but of course they could he — be difficult, but of course they could be requesting more information of discussions at cabinet or indeed, of discussions at cabinet or indeed, of course, — of discussions at cabinet or indeed, of course, any other documentation that might — of course, any other documentation that might be necessary and might have beeri— that might be necessary and might have been relevant to any decision that was— have been relevant to any decision that was made. was have been relevant to any decision that was made.— that was made. was the scottish cabinet during _ that was made. was the scottish cabinet during the _ that was made. was the scottish cabinet during the pandemic - that was made. was the scottish cabinet during the pandemic a i cabinet during the pandemic a decision ratified body, rather than the main decision—making body? m0. decision ratified body, rather than the main decision—making body? his.” the main decision-making body? no, i wouldn't agree — the main decision-making body? no, i wouldn't agree with _ the main decision-making body? no, i wouldn't agree with that _ wouldn't agree with that

characterisation for my attendance at cabinet — characterisation for my attendance at cabinet meetings, there was good, engage _ at cabinet meetings, there was good, engage in— at cabinet meetings, there was good, engage in conversation, as i said, at times— engage in conversation, as i said, at times disagreement on the approach. the approach that was to be taken, _ approach. the approach that was to be taken, but are cabinet meetings were a _ be taken, but are cabinet meetings were a good discursive forum by which _ were a good discursive forum by which to— were a good discursive forum by which to have those discussions. we were not— which to have those discussions. we were not there simply to ratify, as i say, _ were not there simply to ratify, as i say, i— were not there simply to ratify, as i say, i can— were not there simply to ratify, as i say, i can think of instances where — i say, i can think of instances where challenge was brought forward and what _ where challenge was brought forward and what was in the original submission or advice from officials was therefore amended accordingly, depending on the decision that was then taken. natimuk was at the then first minister's practice to take important decisions as a result of discussions — important decisions as a result of discussions with a close group of other ministerial colleagues, whether in gold command or not, not calling on cabinet or the wider advisory structure is available to the scottish government? again, the former first minister, _ the scottish government? again, the former first minister, of— the scottish government? again, the former first minister, of course, - the scottish government? again, the former first minister, of course, it i former first minister, of course, it will he _ former first minister, of course, it will be for— former first minister, of course, it will be for her to answer exactly how she — will be for her to answer exactly how she would make decisions, but in my experience as cabinet secretary who served under her in a variety of

roles, _ who served under her in a variety of roles, she _ who served under her in a variety of roles, she found great value in the discursive — roles, she found great value in the discursive nature of cabinet. of gold _ discursive nature of cabinet. of gold command. but also equally, if cabinet _ gold command. but also equally, if cabinet as— gold command. but also equally, if cabinet as a whole did not have to be cabinet as a whole did not have to he brought— cabinet as a whole did not have to be brought together, given the very precise _ be brought together, given the very precise nature of a decision that had to— precise nature of a decision that had to he — precise nature of a decision that had to be made, then gold command was i _ had to be made, then gold command was i think— had to be made, then gold command was i think the appropriate forum by which _ was i think the appropriate forum by which to— was i think the appropriate forum by which to make that decision. you have provided — which to make that decision. you have provided to _ which to make that decision. wm. have provided to the inquiry a number of whatsapp exchanges in which you are involved from the period of the pandemic, as requested by the inquiry, is that correct? that is correct.— by the inquiry, is that correct? that is correct. could we have a look please _ that is correct. could we have a look please at _ that is correct. could we have a | look please at inq000034092? that is correct. could we have a - look please at inq000034092? this is look please at in0000034092? this is a record of some whatsapp exchanges between yourself and professorjason leitch, who was the national clinical director, is that correct? that is correct. in

clinical director, is that correct? that is correct.— that is correct. in fact, i think this comes — that is correct. in fact, i think this comes from _ that is correct. in fact, i think this comes from the - that is correct. in fact, i think this comes from the very - that is correct. in fact, i think this comes from the very day| that is correct. in fact, i think. this comes from the very day on which you were appointed as health secretary for cabinet social care and health, is that correct? that is correct. there _ and health, is that correct? that is correct. there is _ and health, is that correct? that is correct. there is some _ and health, is that correct? that is correct. there is some discussion | correct. there is some discussion here, on correct. there is some discussion here. on which — correct. there is some discussion here, on which we _ correct. there is some discussion here, on which we will— correct. there is some discussion here, on which we will get - correct. there is some discussion here, on which we will get into i correct. there is some discussion here, on which we will get into a | here, on which we will get into a bit more detail, or view arriving at your desk and approaching a newjob and immediately getting stuck into some of the difficult decisions you had to engage in, in particular the context is you are discussing figures that have arisen relating to concerns about the rise in cases in the glasgow area, and in particular, east renfrewshire, which seemed on your initial analysis to be indicating a cause for concern, as the cases were going up. is that a fair summary the cases were going up. is that a fairsummary of the the cases were going up. is that a fair summary of the context? that is fair. and fair summary of the context? that is fair- and you — fair summary of the context? that is fair. and you are _ fair summary of the context? that is fair. and you are seeking _ fair summary of the context? that is fair. and you are seeking professor. fair. and you are seeking professor jason leitch's _ fair. and you are seeking professor jason leitch's input _ fair. and you are seeking professor jason leitch's input and _ fair. and you are seeking professor jason leitch's input and council- fair. and you are seeking professor jason leitch's input and council on| jason leitch's input and council on that decision, is that right? that is correct. _ that decision, is that right? that is correct, yes. _ that decision, is that right? that is correct, yes. and _ that decision, is that right? that is correct, yes. and you - that decision, is that right? that is correct, yes. and you refer. that decision, is that right? that is correct, yes. and you refer at| is correct, yes. and you refer at 11:52am, _ is correct, yes. and you refer at 11:52am, i _ is correct, yes. and you refer at 11:52am, ithink—

is correct, yes. and you refer at 11:52am, i think wrapping - is correct, yes. and you refer at 11:52am, i think wrapping up - is correct, yes. and you refer at i 11:52am, i think wrapping up your discussion with professorjason leitch on that subject, that you will be on the deep dive and then professorjason leitch replies, good, there was some fm keep it small shenanigans, as always. she actually wants none of us. this is professorjason leitch giving you guidance and advice on your first day in the newjob, is that rightyes. and he refers to the first minister's keep it small shenanigans and that he actually —— she actually wants none of us. is this an indication of the fact the first minister really took decisions with regard to the pandemic has held for at least would have preferred it that way? at least would have preferred it that wa ? ., ~' at least would have preferred it that wa ? ., ,, ., ., , at least would have preferred it that wa ? ., ,. ., that way? no, i think that was, as jason said — that way? no, i think that was, as jason said when _ that way? no, i think that was, as jason said when he _ that way? no, i think that was, as jason said when he gave _ that way? no, i think that was, as jason said when he gave evidence | that way? no, i think that was, as l jason said when he gave evidence to this very— jason said when he gave evidence to this very inquiry, and sample him perhaps— this very inquiry, and sample him perhaps over speaking. i don't doubt that there _ perhaps over speaking. i don't doubt that there were times when the former— that there were times when the former first minister needed a tighter— former first minister needed a tighter cast list, wanted a tighter cast list— tighter cast list, wanted a tighter cast list to make a decision on a very— cast list to make a decision on a very specific issue. but i think this was— very specific issue. but i think this was a _ very specific issue. but i think this was a classic example ofjason

perhaps— this was a classic example ofjason perhaps over speaking. this was a classic example of jason perhaps over speaking.— this was a classic example of jason perhaps over speaking. when you talk about the tighter _ perhaps over speaking. when you talk about the tighter cast _ perhaps over speaking. when you talk about the tighter cast list, _ perhaps over speaking. when you talk about the tighter cast list, are - perhaps over speaking. when you talk about the tighter cast list, are you - about the tighter cast list, are you talking about the gold command or something similar? yes. talking about the gold command or something similar?— something similar? yes, generally old something similar? yes, generally gold command- — something similar? yes, generally gold command. so _ something similar? yes, generally gold command. so in _ something similar? yes, generally gold command. so in essence, - something similar? yes, generally gold command. so in essence, as| something similar? yes, generally| gold command. so in essence, as i sun rested gold command. so in essence, as i suggested to _ gold command. so in essence, as i suggested to you _ gold command. so in essence, as i suggested to you earlier, - gold command. so in essence, as i suggested to you earlier, the - suggested to you earlier, the practice was that decisions would be made by the first minister gathering around her a small number of close advisers, ratherthan around her a small number of close advisers, rather than putting the matter to cabinet or exposing herself to the wider advisory structures of the scottish government, is that correct? h0. structures of the scottish government, is that correct? no, i would say. — government, is that correct? no, i would say. again. _ government, is that correct? no, i would say, again, a _ government, is that correct? no, i would say, again, a number- government, is that correct? no, i would say, again, a number of- would say, again, a number of decisions _ would say, again, a number of decisions were taken at cabinet, particularly in terms of the overall direction — particularly in terms of the overall direction in — particularly in terms of the overall direction in which the government was going — direction in which the government was going in relation to restrictions or any decision, in fact, _ restrictions or any decision, in fact, connected to the pandemic. it may well— fact, connected to the pandemic. it may well be that the finer detail of that decision was then delegated to the first _ that decision was then delegated to the first minister or indeed other cabinet _ the first minister or indeed other cabinet secretaries and that is where — cabinet secretaries and that is where gold command could often come in all gold _ where gold command could often come in all gold command could maybe come in all gold command could maybe come in when _ in all gold command could maybe come in when there was a development in

the developed virus and a decision had to— the developed virus and a decision had to he — the developed virus and a decision had to be made either that evening or indeed _ had to be made either that evening or indeed the next day. so to had to be made either that evening or indeed the next day.— or indeed the next day. so to put this in this _ or indeed the next day. so to put this in this particular— or indeed the next day. so to put this in this particular context, - this in this particular context, because one sees in the period of you being cabinet secretary for health and social care a number of exchanges of this nature, where you are trying to take the counsel of professor leitch in particular around the question of levels at different areas should be applied and put into. when you say the principle would be agreed by cabinet, but the finer detail delegated, in this context would that mean the cabinet had said there should be a level system, but the first minister and her close group would decide which levels would be applied to which areas?— would decide which levels would be applied to which areas? forgive me, i couldn't tell _ applied to which areas? forgive me, i couldn't tell you _ applied to which areas? forgive me, i couldn't tell you exactly _ applied to which areas? forgive me, i couldn't tell you exactly how - applied to which areas? forgive me, i couldn't tell you exactly how the i i couldn't tell you exactly how the final decision on this particular instancem _ final decision on this particular instance... i final decision on this particular instance. . ._ instance... i am talking more broadly about _ instance... i am talking more broadly about that _ instance... i am talking more broadly about that type i instance... i am talking more broadly about that type of i instance... i am talking more i broadly about that type of decision. yes, i will gladly answer that question _ yes, i will gladly answer that question. it would often be the case that we _ question. it would often be the case that we would come to agreement in cabinet _ that we would come to agreement in cabinet about exactly what level a

particular— cabinet about exactly what level a particular area would be in. they would _ particular area would be in. they would he — particular area would be in. they would be some areas where, given the threshold, _ would be some areas where, given the threshold, we would look in terms of whether— threshold, we would look in terms of whether a _ threshold, we would look in terms of whether a local authority was on one level or— whether a local authority was on one level or another, that they may well be right— level or another, that they may well be right on— level or another, that they may well be right on the threshold or close to that _ be right on the threshold or close to that threshold, so there would be the decision to delegate the final decision— the decision to delegate the final decision on east renfrewshire or glasgow— decision on east renfrewshire or glasgow or the more a two gold command — glasgow or the more a two gold command all the first minister to make _ command all the first minister to make that — command all the first minister to make that very final decision. 30 in make that very final decision. so in essence, make that very final decision. so in essence. it — make that very final decision. so in essence, it was _ make that very final decision. so in essence, it was the _ make that very final decision. so in essence, it was the small - make that very final decision. sr “i essence, it was the small group make that very final decision. sr “u essence, it was the small group and the first minister who made the final decision which is important, which is which level the particular area should go into? ihiat which is which level the particular area should go into?— which is which level the particular area should go into? not always, as i said, on area should go into? not always, as i said. on a — area should go into? not always, as i said, on a number— area should go into? not always, as i said, on a number of— area should go into? not always, as i said, on a number of occasions i i said, on a number of occasions cabinet — i said, on a number of occasions cabinet would agree the exact level for the _ cabinet would agree the exact level for the exact local authority to have _ for the exact local authority to have to — for the exact local authority to have to go on. there was a was going to be, _ have to go on. there was a was going to be, within — have to go on. there was a was going to be, within 32 local authorities, some _ to be, within 32 local authorities, some that — to be, within 32 local authorities, some that were perhaps on the cusp of going _ some that were perhaps on the cusp of going into level three, some on the cusp— of going into level three, some on the cusp of— of going into level three, some on the cusp of level two and ultimately, before a decision was made, _ ultimately, before a decision was made. it— ultimately, before a decision was made, it was right that the final decision— made, it was right that the final decision was delegated, be it to the

first minister, the cabinet of secretary for health or others with the most — secretary for health or others with the most up—to—date information on the most up—to—date information on the r_ the most up—to—date information on the r numberand the most up—to—date information on the r number and the tests or positivity _ the r number and the tests or ositivi . the r number and the tests or positivity-— the r number and the tests or ositivi . , ., , ., positivity. the inquiry has heard si . nificant positivity. the inquiry has heard significant evidence _ positivity. the inquiry has heard significant evidence about i positivity. the inquiry has heard significant evidence about the i significant evidence about the principles of transparency and accountability in documents such as the national performance framework. these are principles to which the scottish government is committed, is that correct?— scottish government is committed, is that correct? yes. we have also seen these principles _ that correct? yes. we have also seen these principles reiterated throughout documents relating to the pandemic response itself. for example, the foreign harms framework of april 2020, is that correct? that is correct. of april 2020, is that correct? that is correct- no _ of april 2020, is that correct? that is correct. no and _ of april 2020, is that correct? that is correct. no and that tells us that— is correct. no and that tells us that the — is correct. no and that tells us that the scottish government's position. — that the scottish government's position, as far as its— position, as far as its public facin: position, as far as its public facing aspect _ position, as far as its public facing aspect is _ position, as far as its public facing aspect is concerned, | position, as far as its public i facing aspect is concerned, was position, as far as its public - facing aspect is concerned, was that it wished to apply those important principles in the way it handled the pandemic. is that correct? that principles in the way it handled the pandemic. is that correct?- pandemic. is that correct? that is correct.

pandemic. is that correct? that is correct- and _ pandemic. is that correct? that is correct. and indeed, _ pandemic. is that correct? that is correct. and indeed, there - pandemic. is that correct? that is correct. and indeed, there have l pandemic. is that correct? that is i correct. and indeed, there have been a number of — correct. and indeed, there have been a number of opportunities _ correct. and indeed, there have been a number of opportunities for - correct. and indeed, there have been a number of opportunities for you i a number of opportunities for you yourself and others on behalf of the scottish government to reiterate your commitment to those principles, with regard to your participation in this very inquiry. is that correct? that is correct. filth this very inquiry. is that correct? that is correct.— that is correct. on the 29th of june, that is correct. on the 29th of june. you _ that is correct. on the 29th of june. you said _ that is correct. on the 29th of june, you said in _ that is correct. on the 29th of june, you said in response i that is correct. on the 29th of june, you said in response to| that is correct. on the 29th of| june, you said in response to a question in the scottish parliament, it is important that i abide by the rules of the uk public inquiry and the scottish public inquiry to ensure there is simply no doubt whatsoever, any materials asked for, whatsapp, e—mails, signal messages, telegram messages or whatever will absolutely be handed over to the covid inquiries and handed over to them in full. hasn't always been your position?— them in full. hasn't always been our osition? . . , your position? that has always been my position. — your position? that has always been my position. this — your position? that has always been my position, this remains _ your position? that has always been my position, this remains your i my position, this remains your position? _ my position, this remains your position? yes, that any materials we have should — position? yes, that any materials we have should be handed over in full. this remains notjust very important and engaging in quarries such as

this, but also during the course of a public emergency which does not derive from a serious event —— make a single event, but is continuous, that a material relating to the way in which decisions were taken must be retained, so that proper lessons could be learned and a better response to the pandemic developed. is that correct? that is correct and perhaps on this issue of informal messaging, including whatsapp messages, of course, let me reiterate _ messages, of course, let me reiterate what i have said in the chamber— reiterate what i have said in the chamberjust a couple of hours ago. let me _ chamberjust a couple of hours ago. let me unreservedly apologise to this inquiry, but also to those who are mourning the loss of a loved one, _ are mourning the loss of a loved one. those — are mourning the loss of a loved one, those who are briefed by covid, for the _ one, those who are briefed by covid, for the government's frankly poor handling — for the government's frankly poor handling of the various requests and freedom _ handling of the various requests and freedom of information for these messages, there is no excuse that we should _ messages, there is no excuse that we should have _ messages, there is no excuse that we should have done better, and that is

why i— should have done better, and that is why i make — should have done better, and that is why i make that public apology today — why i make that public apology today. ministers are aware, there is awareness — today. ministers are aware, there is awareness amongst cabinet secretaries and other ministers, regardless of the mode of any communication, that any communication, that any communication that is in relation to government business should be recorded — government business should be recorded in public records and salient — recorded in public records and salient points recorded on the public— salient points recorded on the public record and that is usually done _ public record and that is usually done via — public record and that is usually done via the cabinet office or via government officials, but i am afraid — government officials, but i am afraid for— government officials, but i am afraid for a long time the corporate afraid fora long time the corporate nrindset— afraid for a long time the corporate mindset of— afraid for a long time the corporate mindset of the government, the organisational mindset of the government was because the corporation or government had those decisions _ corporation or government had those decisions and salient points, that was the _ decisions and salient points, that was the only thing really that was required — was the only thing really that was required to hand over to the inquiry, _ required to hand over to the inquiry, when the inquiry made it clear. _ inquiry, when the inquiry made it clear. of— inquiry, when the inquiry made it clear, of course, that you were seeking — clear, of course, that you were seeking more than that. and there is a gap. _ seeking more than that. and there is a gap, regardless of the record management plan that the mobile messaging policy, there is clearly a -ap messaging policy, there is clearly a gap that— messaging policy, there is clearly a gap that exists in relation to how material— gap that exists in relation to how material and informal communications should _ material and informal communications should he _ material and informal communications should be retained in relation to a statutory— should be retained in relation to a statutory public inquiry and it is why i— statutory public inquiry and it is why i have _ statutory public inquiry and it is why i have instructed an externally led review — why i have instructed an externally

led review to look at this issue and other— led review to look at this issue and other issues — led review to look at this issue and other issues such as what ministers and cabinet — other issues such as what ministers and cabinet secretaries should do. should _ and cabinet secretaries should do. should they thaw example change device _ should they thaw example change device in— should they thaw example change device in the midst particularly of an emergency such as a pandemic or anything _ an emergency such as a pandemic or anything that is analogous to that? thank— anything that is analogous to that? thank you — anything that is analogous to that? thank you. in answering questions about this area, one of the senior civil servants, ms fraser, from the corporate director—general, accepted that it was important in the interests of transparency and accountability to the scottish public, that information about how decisions were reached should be retained. do you agree with her? i retained. do you agree with her? i do. you mentioned _ retained. do you agree with her? i do. you mentioned in _ retained. do you agree with her? i do. you mentioned in your- retained. do you agree with her? i l do. you mentioned in your response there the requirement, _ do. you mentioned in your response there the requirement, as _ do. you mentioned in your response there the requirement, as i - there the requirement, as i understood you, to retain information within the system about key decisions that were made. would you accept that both the policy in existence at the time and, indeed, the principles of transparency and accountability require there to be

careful record keeping of how decisions are made, mean that discussions are leading to decisions also required to be recorded? yes. also required to be recorded? yes, and again. — also required to be recorded? yes, and again. our— also required to be recorded? yes, and again, our record _ also required to be recorded? yes, and again, our record management policy— and again, our record management policy will— and again, our record management policy will make clear that it is not just — policy will make clear that it is not just the policy will make clear that it is notjust the decision policy will make clear that it is not just the decision that has to be recording, — not just the decision that has to be recording, but i think the wording is salient — recording, but i think the wording is salient points relating to the decision— is salient points relating to the decision should also be recorded for the public— decision should also be recorded for the public record.— the public record. there is a difference. _ the public record. there is a difference, though, - the public record. there is a l difference, though, perhaps, the public record. there is a i difference, though, perhaps, it might be quite subtle, but the salient points of a decision is one thing, but the salient government business involved in a process leading to the decision is another. do you accept that both categories required to be retained in order to fulfil the ultimate objective of transparency and accountability? yes, and accept the point you're making — yes, and accept the point you're making i— yes, and accept the point you're making. i would say of course our records _ making. i would say of course our records management policy is important for a couple of reasons. one, _ important for a couple of reasons. one. of— important for a couple of reasons. one, of course, forall of important for a couple of reasons. one, of course, for all of the reasons— one, of course, for all of the reasons you have just articulated in relation _ reasons you have just articulated in relation to— reasons you have just articulated in relation to transparency, good governance, but also for record management. we cannot possibly as an

organisation _ management. we cannot possibly as an organisation keep every single piece of documentation that is produced by the organisation. it would be very, very challenging and difficult to do so. very challenging and difficult to do so so— very challenging and difficult to do so. so there is a need for that record — so. so there is a need for that record management policy and ultimately there will be a point where — ultimately there will be a point where it— ultimately there will be a point where it will be interpretation of the receiver of that information to decide _ the receiver of that information to decide whether or not that should be recorded _ decide whether or not that should be recorded in— decide whether or not that should be recorded in a corporate record or not _ recorded in a corporate record or not. �* .,, recorded in a corporate record or not. �* , . , , recorded in a corporate record or not. , ., not. but those principles of transparency _ not. but those principles of transparency and _ not. but those principles of i transparency and accountability should aid in that interpretation? they should. should aid in that interpretation? they should-— they should. because if there is material relating _ they should. because if there is material relating to _ they should. because if there is material relating to discussions| they should. because if there is i material relating to discussions on the business of government, it would be necessary for an interested member of the scottish public to be able to access that material, in order to know how decisions were taken and ultimately to know whether the decisions were taken in a way in which they were satisfied. yes. the decisions were taken in a way in which they were satisfied.— which they were satisfied. yes, i think that is _ which they were satisfied. yes, i think that is fair. _ which they were satisfied. yes, i think that is fair. ok. _ which they were satisfied. yes, i j think that is fair. ok. authorities our think that is fair. ok. authorities your production _ think that is fair. ok. authorities your production whatsapp i think that is fair. ok. authorities i your production whatsapp messages and other informal messages to the inquiry is concerned, i think it is apparent, is it not, and you have

accepted this i think, you are a heavy user of whatsapp as a means of communication? l heavy user of whatsapp as a means of communication?— communication? i use it on a daily basis. communication? i use it on a daily basis- and — communication? i use it on a daily basis- and is _ communication? i use it on a daily basis. and is it _ communication? i use it on a daily basis. and is it the _ communication? i use it on a daily basis. and is it the case _ communication? i use it on a daily basis. and is it the case that i communication? i use it on a daily basis. and is it the case that you l basis. and is it the case that you used your _ basis. and is it the case that you used your own — basis. and is it the case that you used your own personal- basis. and is it the case that you used your own personal phones, j used your own personal phones, pleural, for whatsapp messages during the course of the pandemic, rather than a government issued phone? rather than a government issued hone? . .. . rather than a government issued hone? , ., . rather than a government issued phone?_ and rather than a government issued | phone?_ and i phone? yes, that is correct. and i think it has _ phone? yes, that is correct. and i think it has transpired _ phone? yes, that is correct. and i think it has transpired on - phone? yes, that is correct. and i think it has transpired on the i think it has transpired on the material you provided that you and that had multiple phones over the period from january 2022 april 2022? both personal and government devices. — both personal and government devices, yes. can both personal and government devices. yes-— both personal and government devices, es. ., , devices, yes. can i ask you please to look at — devices, yes. can i ask you please to look at in00000319509? - devices, yes. can i ask you please to look at inq0000319509? this | devices, yes. can i ask you please. to look at in00000319509? this is devices, yes. can i ask you please i to look at in00000319509? this is a to look at in000003i9509? this is a table we got from previous witnesses that was very helpfully produced for us from a team within scottish government, in connection with our inquiries about the usage of materials, of informal messaging systems. and amongst other things,

in this table what we see is the scottish government's responses to what was used during the course of the pandemic. and it says there, as regards your whatsapp or other informal communication systems, that used whatsapp with nicola sturgeon and john swinney to discuss matters, any decisions made were recorded during appropriate channels as per scott gob guidance, no other informal platforms are used, communicated with stuart and todd through whatsapp. just to pause there, they were ministers working with you in a time as health secretary, is that right? yes, that is riuht. secretary, is that right? yes, that is right. thank _ secretary, is that right? yes, that is right. thank you. _ secretary, is that right? yes, that is right. thank you. whatsapp i is right. thank you. whatsapp communication _ is right. thank you. whatsapp communication and _ is right. thank you. whatsapp communication and advice i is right. thank you. whatsapp i communication and advice related to covid—i9 more frequently during the beginning of the pandemic due to restrictions on in—person meetings, deleted all messages after a month for cybersecurity messages, as per there, by which i assume it means your common understanding of the scottish government mobile messaging

app's usage and policy. does not recall any decision—making via whatsapp, health decisions administered by matt hancock and this was disbanded after matt hancock left office used as information sharing, not decision—making, such as a number of messages not being retained. this document is dated the 13th of october 2023. this is what the scottish government represented to us as being your position as at that time, to the effect that you had retained none of the messages, although you had used whatsapp to discuss information and advice relating to covid—i9. is that an accurate representation of your position as at that time? {lit accurate representation of your position as at that time? of course but position _ position as at that time? of course but position developed _ position as at that time? of course but position developed back i position as at that time? of course but position developed back we i position as at that time? of course | but position developed back we will -et but position developed back we will get onto— but position developed back we will get onto that, ijust mean that this particularm — get onto that, ijust mean that this particular... is get onto that, i 'ust mean that this particular. . .— particular... is that right that this is an _ particular... is that right that this is an accurate _ particular... is that right that i this is an accurate representation of your position at that time? yes. and when you _

of your position at that time? yes. and when you say _ of your position at that time? yes. and when you say in _ of your position at that time? yes. and when you say in the _ of your position at that time? yes. and when you say in the opening paragraph that any decision made were recorded through the appropriate channels, as per scots guards guidance, does that indicate that your understanding of the scottish guidance or policy was that the only decisions made required to be recorded for the appropriate channels? ., . , ., , be recorded for the appropriate channels? ., . , ., , ., channels? no, decisions and salient oints -- channels? no, decisions and salient points -- make _ channels? no, decisions and salient points -- make no _ channels? no, decisions and salient points -- make no decisions - channels? no, decisions and salient points -- make no decisions and i points —— make no decisions and salient _ points —— make no decisions and salient point should have been made in this— salient point should have been made in this platform stop yes, is as we discussed — in this platform stop yes, is as we discussed earlier, is that correct? yes _ discussed earlier, is that correct? yes and — discussed earlier, is that correct? yes. and when you say, recorded through— yes. and when you say, recorded through appropriate channels, is that another way of saying that that material _ that another way of saying that that material has been— material has been recorded on the cororate material has been recorded on the corporate record? _ material has been recorded on the corporate record? yes. _ material has been recorded on the corporate record? yes. and i material has been recorded on the corporate record? yes. and how, l material has been recorded on the i corporate record? yes. and how, as a matter of practice, would you have gone about transferring the salient points of discussions relating to important decisions onto the corporate record as a matter of practicality?— corporate record as a matter of racticali ? , ., ., practicality? yes, and forgive me, i said this was _ practicality? yes, and forgive me, i said this was a _ practicality? yes, and forgive me, i

said this was a statement - practicality? yes, and forgive me, i said this was a statement that i practicality? yes, and forgive me, i said this was a statement that was| said this was a statement that was correct, _ said this was a statement that was correct, as— said this was a statement that was correct, as per the 13th of october. there _ correct, as per the 13th of october. there are _ correct, as per the 13th of october. there are probably some areas that were obviously updated thereafter, which _ were obviously updated thereafter, which would abrogate some of what is in here _ which would abrogate some of what is in here but _ which would abrogate some of what is in here. but i would be happy to speak — in here. but i would be happy to speak to— in here. but i would be happy to seak... ., , in here. but i would be happy to seak... .,, , ., ., speak... to be absolutely fair, what i'mt inr speak... to be absolutely fair, what i'm trying to — speak... to be absolutely fair, what i'm trying to do _ speak... to be absolutely fair, what i'm trying to do is — speak... to be absolutely fair, what i'm trying to do isjust _ speak... to be absolutely fair, what i'm trying to do isjust understand l i'm trying to do is just understand your position at that time. i will take you to the developments thereafter. {lit take you to the developments thereafter-— take you to the developments thereafter. . ., , , ., thereafter. of course. in terms of how that was _ thereafter. of course. in terms of how that was recorded, _ thereafter. of course. in terms of how that was recorded, if - thereafter. of course. in terms of how that was recorded, if there i thereafter. of course. in terms of l how that was recorded, if there was a discussion— how that was recorded, if there was a discussion of salient points or a decision— a discussion of salient points or a decision that was made over any informal— decision that was made over any informal communication, that it would _ informal communication, that it would often be a wannabe cabinet secretaries or wannabe ministers to inform _ secretaries or wannabe ministers to inform their— secretaries or wannabe ministers to inform their private office or another— inform their private office or another government official, who would _ another government official, who would then put it into the corporate record _ would then put it into the corporate record no — would then put it into the corporate record. no decision could be actioned _ record. no decision could be actioned of course unless it was in some _ actioned of course unless it was in some way— actioned of course unless it was in some way through the system and that was usually— some way through the system and that was usually done through private office _ was usually done through private office. �* was usually done through private office. . , ., was usually done through private office. . ., was usually done through private office. �* ., , was usually done through private office. . ., , office. and your position is you did that in connection _ office. and your position is you did that in connection with _ office. and your position is you did that in connection with all- office. and your position is you did that in connection with all the i that in connection with all the electronic indications you had, but then you deleted your actual original messages, is that right? some messages would have been

deleted — some messages would have been deleted. still recoverable, but may well have _ deleted. still recoverable, but may well have been deleted. i have to confess, — well have been deleted. i have to confess, in — well have been deleted. i have to confess, in the midst of a global pandemic— confess, in the midst of a global pandemic and the issues that we were engulfed _ pandemic and the issues that we were engulfed in— pandemic and the issues that we were engulfed in at that point, deleting messages routinely was not always at the top _ messages routinely was not always at the top priority. but messages routinely was not always at the top priority-— the top priority. but your understanding _ the top priority. but your understanding of - the top priority. but your understanding of the i the top priority. but your. understanding of the policy the top priority. but your- understanding of the policy was the top priority. but your— understanding of the policy was that what you needed to do was to record the information on a corporate record, through that mechanism, your private office, and that there was then an obligation to delete the messages for cyber security reasons a month after that? and in between, the matching material would be, get for your private office and put on the corporate record by whoever it was? ., the corporate record by whoever it was? . . , ., . was? that was the guidance in the mobile messaging _ was? that was the guidance in the mobile messaging policy. - was? that was the guidance in the mobile messaging policy. so i was? that was the guidance in the mobile messaging policy. so at i was? that was the guidance in the | mobile messaging policy. so at that stare, ou mobile messaging policy. so at that stage, you haven't _ mobile messaging policy. so at that stage, you haven't produced - mobile messaging policy. so at that stage, you haven't produced any i stage, you haven't produced any messages to us because they had, by that time, the 13th of october, been deleted in accordance with practice you are outlined? thea;r deleted in accordance with practice you are outlined?— you are outlined? they were no loner you are outlined? they were no longer available. _ you are outlined? they were no longer available. also - you are outlined? they were no longer available. also i - you are outlined? they were no | longer available. also i thought, you are outlined? they were no i longer available. also i thought, of course _ longer available. also i thought, of course. . r

longer available. also i thought, of course. , ~ ., course. yes, indeed. after that, there was _ course. yes, indeed. after that, there was a _ course. yes, indeed. after that, there was a development i course. yes, indeed. after that, there was a development on i course. yes, indeed. after that, l there was a development on your position, as i understand it, and you provided a supplementary statement to the inquiry explaining what the process had been because, although your position as at the 13th of october was that you didn't have any messages because they were not available to you, you found a phone where the messages were ascertainable. is that right? i ascertainable. is that right? i wouldn't say found. i retained a previous— wouldn't say found. i retained a previous handset that i had used up until about — previous handset that i had used up until about the middle of march of last year — until about the middle of march of last year. so until about the middle of march of last ear. , ., until about the middle of march of last ear, , ., ., until about the middle of march of last ear. ., ., ., ., until about the middle of march of last ear. , ., . . . . , ., last year. so you are aware that you still had in — last year. so you are aware that you still had in your _ last year. so you are aware that you still had in your possession - last year. so you are aware that you still had in your possession that i still had in your possession that handset before the 13th of october, is that right? that handset before the 13th of october, is that right?— handset before the 13th of october, is that right?_ and i is that right? that is correct. and had ou is that right? that is correct. and had you not _ is that right? that is correct. and had you not checked _ is that right? that is correct. and had you not checked that - is that right? that is correct. and had you not checked that when i is that right? that is correct. and i had you not checked that when you said that all the messages had been deleted? l said that all the messages had been deleted? ., ., , , ., deleted? i had and because i had mirrated deleted? i had and because i had migrated my _ deleted? i had and because i had migrated my whatsapp _ deleted? i had and because i had migrated my whatsapp account i deleted? i had and because i had i migrated my whatsapp account onto the new _ migrated my whatsapp account onto the new device, so same number, migrated — the new device, so same number, migrated onto the new device, when i went back— migrated onto the new device, when i went back to the old handset and back to _

went back to the old handset and back to whatsapp, there were no messages — back to whatsapp, there were no messages at all, it was blank. of course, _ messages at all, it was blank. of course, i— messages at all, it was blank. of course, i am _ messages at all, it was blank. of course, iam happy messages at all, it was blank. of course, i am happy to talk to the fact those — course, i am happy to talk to the fact those messages were recoverable, thankfully, not any amazing — recoverable, thankfully, not any amazing technical wizardry, but amazing technical wiza rd ry, but actually — amazing technical wizardry, but actually by logging out of the whatsapp account in my current handset — whatsapp account in my current handset and logging back in in the old handset because those messages were still— old handset because those messages were still in the phone's storage. they— were still in the phone's storage. they were — were still in the phone's storage. they were fairly easily recoverable. so you _ they were fairly easily recoverable. so you were under the impression that the messages had been deleted previously, in accordance with an existing government policy, but in fact it transpired that they had not been deleted and that they were in fact recoverable relatively easily? yes. ,.,, ., ., , fact recoverable relatively easily? yes. ., .. ., yes. the position, then, was that ou were yes. the position, then, was that you were able _ yes. the position, then, was that you were able to _ yes. the position, then, was that you were able to provide - yes. the position, then, was that you were able to provide us i yes. the position, then, was that you were able to provide us with l yes. the position, then, was that| you were able to provide us with a large number of messages, including, for example, with a number of other people, but including exchanges between yourself and possess a jason leitch of the nature we have looked

at already. so they were a large number of messages on that handset, although in some way embedded within it in a way that you couldn't originally access, is that correct? in a way that i didn't realise i could — in a way that i didn't realise i could access when i changed device, yes, that _ could access when i changed device, yes, that is — could access when i changed device, yes, that is correct.— yes, that is correct. thank you. your position — yes, that is correct. thank you. your position is, _ yes, that is correct. thank you. your position is, i— yes, that is correct. thank you. your position is, i think, i yes, that is correct. thank you. your position is, i think, that i your position is, i think, that those messages were, all the salient business points relating to discussions or decisions were uploaded to the corporate record at around the time when they were exchanged before the 30 day deadline expired, is that right? yes. so, we have recovered, _ expired, is that right? yes. so, we have recovered, as _ expired, is that right? yes. so, we have recovered, as you have said during the course of your evidence and you have said in other forums, during the course of your evidence and you have said in otherforums, a significant amount of documentation which the scottish government has provided to us which relates to decision—making discussions relating

to the really covid—i9 pandemic was managed in scotland. that is correct, isn't it?— managed in scotland. that is correct, isn't it? yes. so given the fortuitous — correct, isn't it? yes. so given the fortuitous regulation _ correct, isn't it? yes. so given the fortuitous regulation of— correct, isn't it? yes. so given the fortuitous regulation of the - fortuitous regulation of the messages which were unavailable to you, but became available when you followed the process you have set out, it would now be for an possible, would it not, for us to conduct a comparison between, effectively, what the government has given us, a corporate record relating to these matters and your messages, in order to ascertain whether in fact if you had recorded the salient points in the corporate record? . the salient points in the corporate record? , ., ., ., ., ,, record? yes, although i would make the oint record? yes, although i would make the point that _ record? yes, although i would make the point that salient _ record? yes, although i would make the point that salient points - record? yes, although i would make the point that salient points is i the point that salient points is open — the point that salient points is open to— the point that salient points is open to interpretation. key decisions, of course, and salient points— decisions, of course, and salient points relating to that decision should — points relating to that decision should be noted in the corporate record. — should be noted in the corporate record, but you're absolutely right, you could _ record, but you're absolutely right, you could cross—reference that. and you could cross-reference that. and we will find — you could cross—reference that. situc we will find there, will we, that he salient points of the business conducted over whatsapp will be included within the corporate record? , ,

included within the corporate record? , . , ., included within the corporate record? , record? key decisions and salient oints record? key decisions and salient points related — record? key decisions and salient points related to _ record? key decisions and salient points related to that _ record? key decisions and salient points related to that decision i points related to that decision should — points related to that decision should, of course, be recorded and it was— should, of course, be recorded and it was my— should, of course, be recorded and it was my practice to then inform my private _ it was my practice to then inform my private office of those key decisions, of any salient points related — decisions, of any salient points related to _ decisions, of any salient points related to that and if i did not do that _ related to that and if i did not do that, then — related to that and if i did not do that, then of course those decisions would _ that, then of course those decisions would not _ that, then of course those decisions would not be taken forward. just that, then of course those decisions would not be taken forward.- would not be taken forward. just to be clear, would not be taken forward. just to be clear. again. — would not be taken forward. just to be clear, again, slight _ would not be taken forward. just to | be clear, again, slight terminology, but it might be important. again, you're talking about decisions and salient points of decisions, but what i think you accepted you are required to put on the corporate record was also discussions relating to decisions. so will that be included on the corporate record? l included on the corporate record? i think salient points would be recorded on the records. salient points, — recorded on the records. salient points, and _ recorded on the records. salient points, and that includes decision—making, but any other salient — decision—making, but any other salient points in relation to that decision — salient points in relation to that decision. sill salient points in relation to that decision. �* ., salient points in relation to that decision. . ., . , , , decision. all that include the types of discussions _ decision. all that include the types of discussions or _ decision. all that include the types of discussions or the _ decision. all that include the types of discussions or the tenor - decision. all that include the types of discussions or the tenor of i decision. all that include the types of discussions or the tenor of the i of discussions or the tenor of the types of discussions that you have been having with professorjason leitch in the exhaustive messages that you have now sent us to its inquiry? that you have now sent us to its inrui ? ., , , . inquiry? not every sentence,.,

apostrophe _ inquiry? not every sentence,., apostrophe would _ inquiry? not every sentence,., apostrophe would be _ inquiry? not every sentence,.,| apostrophe would be recorded, inquiry? not every sentence,., i apostrophe would be recorded, nor would _ apostrophe would be recorded, nor would it— apostrophe would be recorded, nor would it be — apostrophe would be recorded, nor would it be required to be recorded, but if— would it be required to be recorded, but if a _ would it be required to be recorded, but if a decision was made and if any of— but if a decision was made and if any of the — but if a decision was made and if any of the salient points relating to that _ any of the salient points relating to that decision being made, they should _ to that decision being made, they should of— to that decision being made, they should of course be recorded on the corporate _ should of course be recorded on the corporate record. of should of course be recorded on the corporate record.— should of course be recorded on the corporate record. of course, you are now telling — corporate record. of course, you are now telling me _ corporate record. of course, you are now telling me they _ corporate record. of course, you are now telling me they should - corporate record. of course, you are now telling me they should be i now telling me they should be recorded, but represented previously that they were on the corporate record. is that right? i that they were on the corporate record. is that right?_ record. is that right? i was endeavoured _ record. is that right? i was endeavoured to _ record. is that right? i was endeavoured to put - record. is that right? i was endeavoured to put them l record. is that right? i was i endeavoured to put them on record. is that right? i was - endeavoured to put them on the corporate — endeavoured to put them on the corporate record, yes. if there are any times— corporate record, yes. if there are any times that was not done, that would _ any times that was not done, that would have — any times that was not done, that would have been a mistake made by secretary— would have been a mistake made by secretary minister, if they did not do that _ secretary minister, if they did not do that. but of course the guidance is that— do that. but of course the guidance is that those decisions made should be recorded and the salient points in relation — be recorded and the salient points in relation to that decision also. and in— in relation to that decision also. and in your— in relation to that decision also. and in your case, they were, so we should find them on that corporate record? . , . , . , , record? certainly there was was my intention to — record? certainly there was was my intention to do _ record? certainly there was was my intention to do that. _ record? certainly there was was my intention to do that. just _ record? certainly there was was my intention to do that. just be - record? certainly there was was my intention to do that. just be i'm - intention to do that. just be i'm not asking _ intention to do that. just be i'm not asking about _ intention to do that. just be i'm not asking about your _ intention to do that. just be i'm| not asking about your intention. intention to do that. just be i'm - not asking about your intention. my understanding is you have pulled us in your evidence and also previously that you did make sure that the relevant material was on the corporate record? yes relevant material was on the corporate record?— relevant material was on the corporate record? yes we would all is, when decisions _

corporate record? yes we would all is, when decisions are _ corporate record? yes we would all is, when decisions are made, - corporate record? yes we would all| is, when decisions are made, record on the _ is, when decisions are made, record on the corporate record, as per the records _ on the corporate record, as per the records management policy. in on the corporate record, as per the records management policy.- records management policy. in any event, records management policy. in any event. first — records management policy. in any event, first minister, _ records management policy. in any event, first minister, given - records management policy. in any event, first minister, given the - event, first minister, given the fortuitous discovery of these many messages, which we have read with great interest and we are obliged to produce them subsequently, we can carry out a comparison between these two bodies to ascertain whether that is correct. can ijust ask you, you also provide some whatsapp messages, although there jason leitch's is a frequent correspondence, there were others with whom you corresponded via that vehicle, one of the former first minister, with whom you helpfully provided us with some messages, helpfully because the former first minister's position is that she does not have access to any of those whatsapp messages involved in conversations with you or indeed anyone else. did you discuss the production of your whatsapp messages to this inquiry with the first minister, the former first minister? no.

we noted in your whatsapp messages with possess a jason leitch that there were frequently voice notes received from him. was that a frequent practice of his? it received from him. was that a frequent practice of his? it was done certainly _ frequent practice of his? it was done certainly on _ frequent practice of his? it was done certainly on occasion - frequent practice of his? it was done certainly on occasion and| frequent practice of his? it was| done certainly on occasion and i also _ done certainly on occasion and i also on — done certainly on occasion and i also on occasion would use voice notes _ also on occasion would use voice notes as— also on occasion would use voice notes as well. also on occasion would use voice notes as well-— also on occasion would use voice notes as well. ~ , ., notes as well. where the contents of those voice — notes as well. where the contents of those voice notes, _ notes as well. where the contents of those voice notes, insofar— notes as well. where the contents of those voice notes, insofar as - those voice notes, insofar as relating to significant decisions made in the course of the pandemic or discussions around them, transcribed or copied into the corporate record?— transcribed or copied into the corporate record? again, if they were salient _ corporate record? again, if they were salient points _ corporate record? again, if they were salient points from - corporate record? again, if they were salient points from those i corporate record? again, if they - were salient points from those voice notes, _ were salient points from those voice notes. and _ were salient points from those voice notes, and decisions that were made in those _ notes, and decisions that were made in those voice notes, then of course we would _ in those voice notes, then of course we would always seek to record them on the _ we would always seek to record them on the public record. the corporate record _ on the public record. the corporate record so — on the public record. the corporate record. , ., on the public record. the corporate record. i. i. on the public record. the corporate record. ., , ,, ., record. so you say you would seek to do so, record. so you say you would seek to do so. but — record. so you say you would seek to do so. but can _ record. so you say you would seek to do so. but can you — record. so you say you would seek to do so, but can you tell— record. so you say you would seek to do so, but can you tell me _ record. so you say you would seek to do so, but can you tell me whether. do so, but can you tell me whether that happened or not?— do so, but can you tell me whether that happened or not? again, when so many decisions _ that happened or not? again, when so many decisions were _ that happened or not? again, when so many decisions were made _ that happened or not? again, when so many decisions were made during - that happened or not? again, when so many decisions were made during the | many decisions were made during the course _ many decisions were made during the course of— many decisions were made during the course of the pandemic, it would always— course of the pandemic, it would always be — course of the pandemic, it would always be the practice that we would seek to _ always be the practice that we would seek to do _ always be the practice that we would seek to do that. government

ministers, cabinet secretaries would seek to _ ministers, cabinet secretaries would seek to do _ ministers, cabinet secretaries would seek to do that. if there were occasions _ seek to do that. if there were occasions when that did not happen, i occasions when that did not happen, i would _ occasions when that did not happen, i would hope that would be very rare occasion— i would hope that would be very rare occasion that it should not happen. it occasion that it should not happen. it should _ occasion that it should not happen. it should be the case that a visible minister— it should be the case that a visible minister and cabinet secretary, myself— minister and cabinet secretary, myself included, would ensure that those _ myself included, would ensure that those decisions and salient points related _ those decisions and salient points related to — those decisions and salient points related to decisions were indeed on the corporate record. as related to decisions were indeed on the corporate record.— the corporate record. as you used our the corporate record. as you used your personal _ the corporate record. as you used your personal phones _ the corporate record. as you used your personal phones because - the corporate record. as you used i your personal phones because there were multiple phones, for conducting these exchanges, and you have explained to us the process by which the corporate record would be outdated by you passing material to your private office, who would then include it in the corporate record. was it then your habit to give your phone, including these messages and voice notes, etc, to your private office to undertake that process? no, that would not be the usual practice — no, that would not be the usual practice because we would not expect every _ practice because we would not expect every word _

practice because we would not expect every word verbatim, every piece of punctuation — every word verbatim, every piece of punctuation to be