would read that as him reminding i would read that as him reminding people of the need to be professional on whatsapp even when discussing light—hearted things. the other thing i would say about all the individuals on the screen is that they are all in my knowledge and experience, particularly with ken thompson, they are public servants of the utmost integrity and at this point and throughout the pandemic, they were public servants who were working in a committed and dedicated fashion in terms of the hours they were working, the pressure under which they were working, probably above and beyond the call of duty. ken thompson is someone i have worked with throughout my time in the scottish government and he is a civil servant of the utmost integrity, as i say, and the utmost professionalism. this u-rou was and the utmost professionalism. this group was called covid outbreak group, — group was called covid outbreak group, obviously connected to the covid _ group, obviously connected to the covid pandemic, yes? that group, obviously connected to the covid pandemic, yes?— group, obviously connected to the covid pandemic, yes? that is what ou are

covid pandemic, yes? that is what you are telling _ covid pandemic, yes? that is what you are telling me, _ covid pandemic, yes? that is what you are telling me, yes. _ covid pandemic, yes? that is what you are telling me, yes. that - covid pandemic, yes? that is what you are telling me, yes. that is i covid pandemic, yes? that is what| you are telling me, yes. that is the name and one _ you are telling me, yes. that is the name and one therefore _ you are telling me, yes. that is the name and one therefore assumes l you are telling me, yes. that is the i name and one therefore assumes it is to do— name and one therefore assumes it is to do with _ name and one therefore assumes it is to do with covid and relevant to the pandemic — to do with covid and relevant to the pandemic. what mr thompson does here is that_ pandemic. what mr thompson does here is that despite recognising that material— is that despite recognising that material in this chart is discoverable under freedom of information legislation is to tell other_ information legislation is to tell other individuals in the group they should _ other individuals in the group they should clear it or deleted. is that not correct?— not correct? that is what is in front of me. _ not correct? that is what is in front of me, yes. _ not correct? that is what is in front of me, yes. could - not correct? that is what is in front of me, yes. could i - not correct? that is what is in front of me, yes. could ijust| not correct? that is what is in i front of me, yes. could ijust go not correct? that is what is in - front of me, yes. could ijust go a front of me, yes. could i “ust go a bit further — front of me, yes. could i “ust go a bit further down? h front of me, yes. could i “ust go a bit further down? i _ front of me, yes. could i “ust go a bit further down? i am _ front of me, yes. could ijust go a bit further down? i am just - front of me, yes. could ijust go a | bit further down? i am just tracing the messages down to 16 and very shortly— the messages down to 16 and very shortly after the exchange we have had thero — shortly after the exchange we have had there. 16 and 17, just a couple minutes_ had there. 16 and 17, just a couple minutes after further down you can see in— minutes after further down you can see in the — minutes after further down you can see in the background what happens in between. there is something which jason— in between. there is something which jason leech— in between. there is something which jason leech says which is redacted at 417 _ jason leech says which is redacted at 417 and — jason leech says which is redacted at 417 and then ken thompson says the information you requested is not held centrally. is that a phrase you recognise? — held centrally. is that a phrase you recognise? gf held centrally. is that a phrase you recoanise? _, , held centrally. is that a phrase you recoanise? , , ,

held centrally. is that a phrase you recognise?_ is - held centrally. is that a phrase you recognise?_ is that l held centrally. is that a phrase you | recognise?_ is that a recognise? of course, yes. is that a hrase recognise? of course, yes. is that a phrase that — recognise? of course, yes. is that a phrase that often _ recognise? of course, yes. is that a phrase that often appears _ recognise? of course, yes. is that a phrase that often appears in - recognise? of course, yes. is that a l phrase that often appears in freedom of information requests when information is requested from the scottish— information is requested from the scottish government? yes. is it a hrase scottish government? yes. is it a phrase that _ scottish government? jazz is it a phrase that indicates that scottish government? 123 is it a phrase that indicates that as scottish government? i2; is it a phrase that indicates that as a resuit— phrase that indicates that as a result of— phrase that indicates that as a result of your request, the scottish government is unable to provide the information— government is unable to provide the information it may otherwise because it doesh't_ information it may otherwise because it doesn't hold the information in a central_ it doesn't hold the information in a central repository?— it doesn't hold the information in a central repository? yes. does it look to you _ central repository? yes. does it look to you that _ central repository? yes. does it look to you that this _ central repository? yes. does it look to you that this is - central repository? i2; does it look to you that this is ken thompson suggesting that response is an excuse _ thompson suggesting that response is an excuse often trotted out by the scottish _ an excuse often trotted out by the scottish government in response to a freedom _ scottish government in response to a freedom of— scottish government in response to a freedom of information request? | freedom of information request? accept freedom of information request? i accept that as an interpretation but these are not my words or an exchange i'm involved in so there is a limit to how far i can go in trying to interpret what he meant by that. in looking at the exchange, my interpretation of it which may or may not be correct is that he is reminding the others in the chat the kind of things they are talking about, they probably shouldn't be on

about, they probably shouldn't be on a chapter like this. someone says i was a teenager in 1996, that is the nature of that. all i can repeat about ken thompson is that he is a civil servant in my experience, who took the responsibilities around recording and making sure that the government record was complete extremely seriously. he is one of the civil servants in my experience that was notjust most experienced in that but was most assiduous in that side of things, so i can't answerfor him. i can speak about my experience of him and i can give an interpretation based on the context of that, that that was meant to be a light—hearted comment, but that is only my interpretation. forgive me, the other thing i would say, i, like many people, given, i can reflect

back to this time, our discussions in government were very serious and there were times when they were extremely sombre. there were days when they were very, very dark, given the nature of what we were dealing with. because the public as a whole were going through unimaginable trauma at the time, many of them still living with that trauma, reading it now light—hearted exchanges can be very difficult, i think, because it gives an impression that people were not taking the situation seriously. i could not be further from the truth and i think what you have there are public servants who are working incredibly hard to take the best decisions to support ministers to take the best decisions to keep people safe. —— that could not be further from the truth. perhaps as human nature, they are occasionally engaging in light—hearted comment to try to get themselves through the day. that is my interpretation but i appreciate others may arrive at a

different one. if it appreciate others may arrive at a different one.— appreciate others may arrive at a different one. if it were ultimately to be determined _ different one. if it were ultimately to be determined there _ different one. if it were ultimately to be determined there was - different one. if it were ultimately to be determined there was a - different one. if it were ultimately i to be determined there was a culture of plausible deniability, a culture of plausible deniability, a culture of deleting messages that would be recoverable under freedom of information requests, a culture of suggesting in order to get out of freedom — suggesting in order to get out of freedom of information requests that documents are not held centrally, these _ documents are not held centrally, these would be abhorrent revelations come _ these would be abhorrent revelations come they— these would be abhorrent revelations come they not?— these would be abhorrent revelations come they not? absolutely, and to be ve clear, come they not? absolutely, and to be very clear. that _ come they not? absolutely, and to be very clear, that is _ come they not? absolutely, and to be very clear, that is not _ come they not? absolutely, and to be very clear, that is not the _ come they not? absolutely, and to be very clear, that is not the culture - very clear, that is not the culture i believe existed in the scottish government during my time as deputy first minister or first minister. and of those things were deemed to be the _ and of those things were deemed to be the reality of the culture in your— be the reality of the culture in your time _ be the reality of the culture in your time as first minister, that would _ your time as first minister, that would be — your time as first minister, that would be a _ your time as first minister, that would be a serious breach of the bond _ would be a serious breach of the bond of— would be a serious breach of the bond of trust between the government and the _ bond of trust between the government and the scottish public which we discussed as being very much at the cornerstone — discussed as being very much at the cornerstone of your whole approach? if cornerstone of your whole approach? if that _ cornerstone of your whole approach? if that is _ cornerstone of your whole approach? if that is the — cornerstone of your whole approach? if that is the case, and let me repeat my view that it was not, what

you are repeating to me to be true —— would be true. i'm sure there will be many other pages of whatsapp messages you can put in front of me, but i would counter pose them to in the region of 100 cabinet papers and minutes that property, seriously recorded the decision making and the underpinning rationale for the decision—making of the government. the bond of trust between any government and the public at any time is of paramount importance, but this was particularly the case during the extraordinary and unprecedented situation we faced in the pandemic, and it was something i felt to my core every single day of that. ~ felt to my core every single day of that. . , ., that. we saw in messages that we looked at in _ that. we saw in messages that we looked at in some _ that. we saw in messages that we looked at in some detail _ that. we saw in messages that we looked at in some detail with - looked at in some detail with professor devi sridhar that you had suggested to her that she might

contact — suggested to her that she might contact you either via your snp e-mail— contact you either via your snp e—mail address or your government e-mail_ e—mail address or your government e—mail address. was the suggestion she might _ e—mail address. was the suggestion she might use your snp e—mail address— she might use your snp e—mail address an appropriate thing to have done in _ address an appropriate thing to have done in the — address an appropriate thing to have done in the conduct of your governments business? in reflection, erha -s governments business? in reflection, erha - i governments business? in reflection, perhaps i should _ governments business? in reflection, perhaps i should not _ governments business? in reflection, perhaps i should not have _ governments business? in reflection, perhaps i should not have done - governments business? in reflection, perhaps i should not have done that, | perhaps i should not have done that, but if i had been trying to direct her to a personal e—mail, but if i had been trying to direct herto a personal e—mail, snp but if i had been trying to direct her to a personal e—mail, snp or otherwise, to keep something of the government system, then i would suggest i wouldn't also had given her my government e—mail address. i wasn't, and obviously inquiry has looked at that message, i wasn't pushing her in one direction or the other. what i was saying is, i think from memory injune 2020 or thereabouts, still a very, very tough critical phase of the pandemic, i was effectively saying to her that if there are things you think i should know, don't stand on ceremony, i would think i should know, don't stand on ceremony, iwould rather think i should know, don't stand on ceremony, i would rather know. at

that point, as i think any responsible decision maker should have been, i was trying to deepen my knowledge and learn as much as i could about the virus and how to combat it, i was desperate to understand different perspectives, desperate to understand as much as i could from the experiences and responses of other countries. now, let me be marie claire, the bulk of that was coming to me for a scottish government advisers but i had a first to understand as much as possible. —— let me be very clear. she was someone who had been appearing in the media a lot and i was periodically asked about abuse she had been expressing in the media and i wanted to have a deeper understanding of what they were, but if i had been in any way trying to direct her to a private e—mail address, i doubt i would have put my government e—mail address in there as well. i know of course the context of what we were talking about was a paper she was sharing

with the wider advisory group. i had no appointed professor devi sridhar send me anything that was for my eyes only that was either publicly accessible information or information being shared with the advisory groups she was a member of. i think we have seen e—mails very recently— i think we have seen e—mails very recently between yourself and professor devi sridhar which do, i think. _ professor devi sridhar which do, i think. as — professor devi sridhar which do, i think, as the direct message exchanges suggest, indicate she was forwarding _ exchanges suggest, indicate she was forwarding onto your policy papers which _ forwarding onto your policy papers which i _ forwarding onto your policy papers which i think your position is that those _ which i think your position is that those would otherwise have been made available _ those would otherwise have been made available to _ those would otherwise have been made available to you. have those would otherwise have been made available to you-— available to you. have i got that ri . htyes, available to you. have i got that rightyes. she — available to you. have i got that rightyes, she was _ available to you. have i got that rightyes, she was a _ available to you. have i got that rightyes, she was a member- available to you. have i got that rightyes, she was a member of| available to you. have i got that i rightyes, she was a member of the scottish government covid advisory group and these were people she was preparing for the group. what the group did with them or what weight it gave to them would be for the group to answer but these were not things she was preparing for me and sending to me alone. they were simply copies of things that went in wider circulation. you

simply copies of things that went in wider circulation.— simply copies of things that went in wider circulation. you would assume it would be in _ wider circulation. you would assume it would be in normal— wider circulation. you would assume it would be in normal practice - wider circulation. you would assume it would be in normal practice of - it would be in normal practice of the group — it would be in normal practice of the group that the group will decide if that— the group that the group will decide if that were sent to you rather than professor _ if that were sent to you rather than professor devi sridhar, is that not right? _ professor devi sridhar, is that not riuht? . . professor devi sridhar, is that not riuht? , , , ., , right? yes, but if this was the ri . ht right? yes, but if this was the riaht run right? yes, but if this was the right run approach _ right? yes, but if this was the right run approach to - right? yes, but if this was the right run approach to take, i l right run approach to take, i apologise. —— if this was the wrong approach to take. i wanted my decisions to be as informed as possible. perhaps one of the reasons why in the early exchange i was saying i hadn't slept much, i read extensively from public sources of articles and research studies online. i was trying to understand as much as possible and as quickly as much as possible and as quickly as possible and i took the view that if somebody could help me with that and said me something i would otherwise see... i'm not even sure come up with my apologies to her, that i would have necessarily read everything she sent me because i may have already seen it or i would perhaps not think it was particularly relevant but i had a

desire to have as much information in order to deepen my understanding of the situation we were facing as i could. and while there are things when you talk about today where i think if i was to go back and had my time again i would take a different decision, i hope i wouldn't take a different decision on that. it was important to me to be as informed and as educated as i possibly could be. ., , .,, ., and as educated as i possibly could be. ., , ., ., be. you used a personal phone for the conduct _ be. you used a personal phone for the conduct of _ be. you used a personal phone for the conduct of government - be. you used a personal phone for. the conduct of government business while _ the conduct of government business while first _ the conduct of government business while first minister, is that correct? _ while first minister, is that correct? yes, i did. and you never used _ correct? yes, i did. and you never used a _ correct? yes, i did. and you never used a government issued phone, is that right? _ used a government issued phone, is that right? we heard evidence from a variety— that right? we heard evidence from a variety of— that right? we heard evidence from a variety of ministers that they seem to use _ variety of ministers that they seem to use phones from a variety of sources, — to use phones from a variety of sources, some scottish government, some _ sources, some scottish government, some personal, some scottish parliament issued bones. in your view, _ parliament issued bones. in your view, as— parliament issued bones. in your view, as the _ parliament issued bones. in your view, as the former first minister, is it appropriate for ministers to conduct — is it appropriate for ministers to conduct business on phones that aren't— conduct business on phones that aren't government issued bones? it

was aren't government issued bones? was never aren't government issued bones? it was never suggested to me at any time during that period as first minister that it was not appropriate. —— government issued phones. the reason i used a personal phones. the reason i used a personal phone is that i didn't want to have devices, a government phone i wouldn't have been able to do constituency, party or personal matter, so i wanted to have one device. it was never suggested that was inappropriate to me and i don't believe it was inappropriate. i think that any phone, whether personal, parliament, government, is vulnerable to being left on a train or lost somehow, which goes back to points i made earlier on about the practice and the policy around how information is retained in government.— information is retained in government. information is retained in overnment. ., , ., ., ., government. we have been made aware of an article which _ government. we have been made aware of an article which appeared _ government. we have been made aware of an article which appeared in - government. we have been made aware of an article which appeared in the i of an article which appeared in the press _ of an article which appeared in the pressiust— of an article which appeared in the pressjust yesterday of an article which appeared in the press just yesterday suggesting that your expenses claims indicated that on the _ your expenses claims indicated that on the 19th of march you purchased a phone _ on the 19th of march you purchased a phone and _ on the 19th of march you purchased a phone and a — on the 19th of march you purchased a phone and a number of sim top pups

and the— phone and a number of sim top pups and the article also suggest you purchased a second prepaid phone at between _ purchased a second prepaid phone at between 2020 and 2021 based on your expenses _ between 2020 and 2021 based on your expenses claims, i think, and that the amounts are there. why did you _ the amounts are there. why did you did — the amounts are there. why did you... did you purchase those phones and why— you... did you purchase those phones and why did _ you... did you purchase those phones and why did you? you you... did you purchase those phones and why did you?— and why did you? you are watching bbc news and _ and why did you? you are watching bbc news and the _ and why did you? you are watching bbc news and the live _ and why did you? you are watching bbc news and the live coverage i and why did you? you are watching bbc news and the live coverage of| bbc news and the live coverage of nicola sturgeon at the covid inquiry. we will say goodbye to viewers on bbc two. just inquiry. we will say goodbye to viewers on bbc two.— viewers on bbc two. just to be clear, viewers on bbc two. just to be clear. we _ viewers on bbc two. just to be clear. we are _ viewers on bbc two. just to be clear, we are obviously - viewers on bbc two. just to be clear, we are obviously keen i clear, we are obviously keen understanding whether they were used for your— understanding whether they were used for your business related to the covid _ for your business related to the covid pandemic in the conduct of your— covid pandemic in the conduct of your rule — covid pandemic in the conduct of your rule as first minister. if there — your rule as first minister. if there were used for some other purpose. — there were used for some other purpose, we have no interest. they were the cause _ purpose, we have no interest. they were the cause that _ purpose, we have no interest. they were the cause that my _ purpose, we have no interest. ii2 were the cause that my constituency office nine lines were diverted to in the homes of my staff. i have never to the best of my knowledge seen, known of or held any of these

phones. seen, known of or held any of these hones. . ~ seen, known of or held any of these hones. ., ~' , ., seen, known of or held any of these hones. ., ,, i. ., seen, known of or held any of these hones. ., ,, ., . ., , ~ , phones. thank you for clarifying. as i am about — phones. thank you for clarifying. as i am about to _ phones. thank you for clarifying. as i am about to move _ phones. thank you for clarifying. as i am about to move on _ phones. thank you for clarifying. as i am about to move on to _ phones. thank you for clarifying. as i am about to move on to another i i am about to move on to another topic, _ i am about to move on to another topic, if— i am about to move on to another topic, ifthat— i am about to move on to another topic, if that is an appropriate moment _ topic, if that is an appropriate moment. ~ ., . topic, if that is an appropriate moment-— topic, if that is an appropriate moment. ~ , , , moment. we may be getting messages that the stenographer _ moment. we may be getting messages that the stenographer are _ that the stenographer are struggling _ that the stenographer are strugglind i— that the stenographer are struggling. i appreciate . that the stenographer are struggling. iappreciate it| that the stenographer are i struggling. i appreciate it is difficult _ struggling. i appreciate it is difficult to _ struggling. i appreciate it is difficult to change - struggling. i appreciate it is difficult to change one's i struggling. i appreciate it is i difficult to change one's pattern struggling. i appreciate it is - difficult to change one's pattern of speech— difficult to change one's pattern of speech but — difficult to change one's pattern of speech but maybe _ difficult to change one's pattern of speech but maybe if— difficult to change one's pattern of speech but maybe if you _ difficult to change one's pattern of speech but maybe if you pause i difficult to change one's pattern of. speech but maybe if you pause before asking _ speech but maybe if you pause before asking the _ speech but maybe if you pause before asking the next — speech but maybe if you pause before asking the next question _ speech but maybe if you pause before asking the next question so _ speech but maybe if you pause before asking the next question so the - asking the next question so the stenographer— asking the next question so the stenographer can— asking the next question so the stenographer can catch - asking the next question so the stenographer can catch up. i. asking the next question so thel stenographer can catch up. i fbrill stenographer can catch up. i will t m stenographer can catch up. i will try my very _ stenographer can catch up. i will try my very best- _ stenographer can catch up. i will try my very best. all _ stenographer can catch up. i will try my very best. all rise. i stenographer can catch up. i will try my very best. all rise. 1130. l try my very best. all rise. 1130. you are watching _ try my very best. all rise. 1130. you are watching bbc - try my very best. all rise. 1130. you are watching bbc news i try my very best. all rise. 1130. | you are watching bbc news and try my very best. all rise. 1130. i you are watching bbc news and live coverage there of the former scottish first minister nicola sturgeon giving evidence to the covid inquiry in scotland. nicola sturgeon was of course the first minister of scotland during the pandemic and she was facing questions there from jamie dawson kc, the inquiry�*s scottish council and so much of the evidence we have heard so far has been focused on the lack of evidence shared by nicola

sturgeon and other officials from messages shared via whatsapp but also the nature of the conversations on the messaging platform. wejust have some of the highlights first. nicola sturgeon insisted she only used platforms like whatsapp for informal communications and added that if any salient points of substance were discussed, she would ensure they were officially recorded. ijust want ensure they were officially recorded. i just want to point you to the bbc website now. if you would like to continue following nicola sturgeon's evidence to the covid inquiry, there is a live page online for it. just go to this website for the latest updates and analysis there. you can also click on the blue button at the top of the page to watch a live stream on this story. 0nce to watch a live stream on this story. once again, you have been watching live coverage of nicola sturgeon's testimony to the covid inquiry in scotland. the former

first minister, nicola