irritating to avoid, bizarrely, irritating people. i suppose another point in this is... it has been described, it is often described as if the uk government's position on these things was the orthodox one and any of the devolved administrations that diverged were stepping out of that orthodox position. that wasn't, that is not, i think, the right way of, often in these issues where the scottish government was diverging, in the language the uk government used, diverging from the four nations preferred road, we were joined in that by wales and northern ireland. so often wales, scotland and northern ireland were in exactly the same position. but the uk government, as was their right, had decided to take a different position. in effect, they often became the outlier formations decision making, not scotland. surely that counts have been the uk

government's position, ms sturgeon? because _ government's position, ms sturgeon? because in_ government's position, ms sturgeon? because in these schedules to the coronavirus acts 2020, the uk parliament had granted power to scotland. — parliament had granted power to scotland, their verge, to differ, to take a _ scotland, their verge, to differ, to take a different path. i�*m scotland, their verge, to differ, to take a different path.— take a different path. i'm not sure i understand _ take a different path. i'm not sure i understand the _ take a different path. i'm not sure i understand the question. - take a different path. i'm not sure i understand the question. you i take a different path. i'm not sure i i understand the question. you were su: caestin i understand the question. you were suggesting a — i understand the question. you were suggesting a moment _ i understand the question. you were suggesting a moment ago _ i understand the question. you were suggesting a moment ago that - i understand the question. you were suggesting a moment ago that the l i understand the question. you were l suggesting a moment ago that the uk government 40 wave this should work is their— government 40 wave this should work is their position should be the orthodox— is their position should be the orthodox one and there should be some _ orthodox one and there should be some limitations got in's ability to take a _ some limitations got in's ability to take a different path. but the legislation made it clear the uk, it had granted that power.— legislation made it clear the uk, it| had granted that power.- so had granted that power. indeed. so that cannot — had granted that power. indeed. so that cannot possibly _ had granted that power. indeed. so that cannot possibly be _ had granted that power. indeed. so that cannot possibly be the - had granted that power. indeed. so that cannot possibly be the uk - that cannot possibly be the uk government's position.- that cannot possibly be the uk government's position. what i'm sa in: is government's position. what i'm saying is often — government's position. what i'm saying is often the _ government's position. what i'm saying is often the commentary i government's position. what i'm - saying is often the commentary being put to me about others being irritated at things i did... there is not my _ irritated at things i did... there is not my words. _ irritated at things i did... there is not my words. forgive - irritated at things i did... there is not my words. forgive me, l irritated at things i did... there is not my words. forgive me, i | irritated at things i did... there - is not my words. forgive me, i know the are is not my words. forgive me, i know they are not — is not my words. forgive me, i know they are not your— is not my words. forgive me, i know they are not your words. _ is not my words. forgive me, i know they are not your words. but - is not my words. forgive me, i know they are not your words. but that. they are not your words. but that gave the impression that while the legislation was exactly as you set out, when the reality of that manifested itself in different

decisions, then somehow that was an irritation. it was not intended to be an irritation. we were all trying to do our best, based on the epidemiology, on the demographic and health profile of our countries, to try to take the best decisions we could. i simply make the observation, the first is a pose significant policy divergence was in early may, over this stay at home advice, when the uk government decided to move to stay alert. it has often been suggested that was the point at which the scottish government diverged from four nations decisions. in actual fact, at that point scotland, wales and northern ireland stuck with stay at home and the uk government for england moved to stay alert. i am just making the point that when things are described as, the scottish government moved outside of formations decision—making, we took the decisions we thought were best, but often we were in the same

position as two of the other four governments that made up the four nations. fin governments that made up the four nations. , , . ., nations. on the sub'ect of the legislation. h nations. on the sub'ect of the legislation, was _ nations. on the sub'ect of the legislation, was it h nations. on the subject of the legislation, was it your - legislation, was it your understanding or had you received advice _ understanding or had you received advice about whether the scottish government considered that the scottish— government considered that the scottish parliament had power to impose _ scottish parliament had power to impose restrictions before the enactment of the coronavirus acts 2020. _ enactment of the coronavirus acts 2020, which came into force on the 26th of— 2020, which came into force on the 26th of march? | 2020, which came into force on the 26th of march?— 26th of march? i was aware and we are always — 26th of march? i was aware and we are always very _ 26th of march? i was aware and we are always very clear _ 26th of march? i was aware and we are always very clear that - 26th of march? i was aware and we are always very clear that until - are always very clear that until that act came into force on the 26th of march, as you say, that you could take mass gatherings up to that point, it was advice we were given, it was not enforceable up to that point. similarly, ithink it was not enforceable up to that point. similarly, i think the initial stay at home advice, for a period of a day or two days, that was advice until the legislation came into force. 50 was advice until the legislation came into force.— was advice until the legislation came into force. so position as you understood — came into force. so position as you understood it _ came into force. so position as you understood it before _ came into force. so position as you understood it before the _ came into force. so position as you| understood it before the enactment of the _ understood it before the enactment of the coronavirus act 2020 was at the scottish government and parliament did not have the power to

enforce _ parliament did not have the power to enforce advice, hence those advisory positions? _ enforce advice, hence those advisory ositions? , ., �* ., ., positions? yes, i wouldn't have had the ower positions? yes, i wouldn't have had the power to _ positions? yes, i wouldn't have had the power to enforce _ positions? yes, i wouldn't have had the power to enforce those - the power to enforce those positions. of course, we had the power to advise people.- positions. of course, we had the power to advise people. which of course is what _ power to advise people. which of course is what you _ power to advise people. which of course is what you did. _ power to advise people. which of course is what you did. did - power to advise people. which of course is what you did. did he . course is what you did. did he scottish— course is what you did. did he scottish government to push for an earlier— scottish government to push for an earlier lockdown? the scottish government to push for an earlier lockdown?— earlier lockdown? the scottish government — earlier lockdown? the scottish government started... - earlier lockdown? the scottish government started... know l earlier lockdown? the scottish| government started... know it, earlier lockdown? the scottish i government started... know it, is the answer, the simple answer to that death simple answer to that is no, in the sense that we were not pushing to have a lockdown or not advised to do that until the 25th of march, no, buti advised to do that until the 25th of march, no, but i think we havejust been reflecting on in the context of mass gatherings, the scottish government was starting to move or argue that we should be moving more quickly. one example of that is the one we have been talking about, mass gatherings. we also took the

decision to recommend the closure of schools d schools slightly, as it happened, others followed suit fairly quickly. but at that point, i was of the view that we had to start moving more quickly and started to demonstrate that through the examples i have spoken about. one of the, before i say this, i can't say and i don't know that anybody can say with certainty what difference it would have made in the overall trajectory of the pandemic and the outcomes of the pandemic, but of the many regrets i have, probably chief of those is that we didn't lockdown a week, two weeks earlier than we did. ., ., ., , ., . , a week, two weeks earlier than we did. you are a staunch supporter of scottish independence? _ did. you are a staunch supporter of scottish independence? i _ did. you are a staunch supporter of scottish independence? i believe i scottish independence? i believe that the record _ scottish independence? i believe that the record will _ scottish independence? i believe that the record will show - scottish independence? i believe that the record will show that - scottish independence? i believe that the record will show that to | scottish independence? i believe l that the record will show that to be true, yes. it that the record will show that to be true, es. , ., , ., ., true, yes. it runs through you to our very core. — true, yes. it runs through you to

our very core, does _ true, yes. it runs through you to our very core, does it _ true, yes. it runs through you to our very core, does it not? - true, yes. it runs through you to our very core, does it not? it. true, yes. it runs through you to i our very core, does it not? it does. is it possible. _ our very core, does it not? it does. is it possible, do _ our very core, does it not? it does. is it possible, do you _ our very core, does it not? it does. is it possible, do you think, - our very core, does it not? it does. is it possible, do you think, for- is it possible, do you think, for you to — is it possible, do you think, for you to take _ is it possible, do you think, for you to take decisions on any matter without— you to take decisions on any matter without seeing them through the prism _ without seeing them through the prism of— without seeing them through the prism of scottish independence and your burning desire to achieve it? yes, _ your burning desire to achieve it? yes. i_ your burning desire to achieve it? yes. i know— your burning desire to achieve it? yes, i know fora your burning desire to achieve it? yes, i know for a fact it is and if i ever doubted that before covid, although i had other examples of doing that in the job of being first minister and health secretary before that, i... i have been in politics for 30 years. i have been a lifelong campaignerfor for 30 years. i have been a lifelong campaigner for independence. for 30 years. i have been a lifelong campaignerfor independence. i don't think, in my entire life, have i ever thought less about politics generally and independence in particular than i did during the course of the pandemic. and particularly in those early stages of the pandemic. people willjudge, you know, for better or worse the decisions my government took. i want to say to people, and give this

inquiry an assurance that none of those decisions were influenced in any way by political considerations or by trying to gain an advantage for the cause of independence. i was motivated solely by trying to do the best we could to keep people as safe as possible. and we did that to some extent, but not to, perhaps we never could have done it, to the extent i wished we could have done. and i carry the regret for the loss of life, the loss of opportunity, you know, the loss of education of our young people, i carry the regret of that with me every single day. but in all of the mistakes i made, that i will concede, some i may argue were not mistakes, but i will absolutely assert very strongly that i did not take decisions for

political reasons and i certainly did not take decisions influenced in some way by considerations around the constitutional argument. on the 18th of march 2020, my constitution secretary, mike russell, at the time, wrote to michael gove, saying we were suspending all work on an independence referendum. that didn't recommence, apart from reactive work in a particular very focused thing and before the scottish election in 2021. that didn't recommence until much later in 2021. the government i lead focused entirely on trying to do the best we through covid. it is a matter of— do the best we through covid. it is a matter of instinct for you, isn't it, a matter of instinct for you, isn't it. to _ a matter of instinct for you, isn't it. to seek— a matter of instinct for you, isn't it, to seek to promote the cause of scottish— it, to seek to promote the cause of scottish independence? yes, it, to seek to promote the cause of scottish independence?— scottish independence? yes, it is, but perhaps- -- _ scottish independence? yes, it is, but perhaps... when _ scottish independence? yes, it is, but perhaps... when you - scottish independence? yes, it is, j but perhaps... when you suddenly find yourself in a position of being leader of a government in the face of a global pandemic, you suddenly

find that the instincts you thought you had not the instincts that come to the fore. my only instinct in the early part of 2020, and this remained the case, was to try to take the best decisions i could, and for my government should take the best decisions we could, to steer the country through covid. and i hope that people observing the scottish government, observing how i went about things during that period, whatever they think about me, my politics, my government, i hope that any reasonable person would have seen that. it is hope that any reasonable person would have seen that.— hope that any reasonable person would have seen that. it is a matter of instinct to _ would have seen that. it is a matter of instinct to seek _ would have seen that. it is a matter of instinct to seek division - would have seen that. it is a matter of instinct to seek division between | of instinct to seek division between the scottish government in the uk government, to achieve and promote the cause _ government, to achieve and promote the cause of— government, to achieve and promote the cause of scottish independence, isn't it? _ the cause of scottish independence, isn't it? ., , ., as the cause of scottish independence, isn't it?_ as you - isn't it? no, it is not. as you said, isn't it? no, it is not. as you said. the _ isn't it? no, it is not. as you said, the position _ isn't it? no, it is not. as you said, the position at - isn't it? no, it is not. as you said, the position at the - isn't it? no, it is not. as you - said, the position at the beginning and the _ said, the position at the beginning and the pandemic, i think of the 18th of— and the pandemic, i think of the 18th of march, was that mr russell had written to mr gove to indicate that campaigning for a second independence referendum would be suspended.

independence referendum would be susended. , ~ ., suspended. yes, i think we also requested _ suspended. yes, i think we also requested at — suspended. yes, i think we also requested at that _ suspended. yes, i think we also requested at that time - suspended. yes, i think we also requested at that time that - suspended. yes, i think we also requested at that time that the | suspended. yes, i think we also i requested at that time that the uk government did likewise around the constitutional project of brexit, that was declined, the uk government never suspended any of its work on brexit. one of the reactive things that the scottish government officials had to do during code it was respond to a consultation on the internal market at, for example. it was the transition period for brexit. _ was the transition period for brexit, wasn't it in 2020? so work was required on that?— brexit, wasn't it in 2020? so work was required on that? well, i think that is perhaps _ was required on that? well, i think that is perhaps a _ was required on that? well, i think that is perhaps a matter— was required on that? well, i think that is perhaps a matter of- was required on that? well, i think| that is perhaps a matter of opinion, rather than fact.— rather than fact. could we look leased rather than fact. could we look pleased at _ rather than fact. could we look pleased at in0000214008? i rather than fact. could we look- pleased at inqooo214008? paragraph pleased at in0000214008? paragraph 56 ce, _ pleased at in0000214008? paragraph 56 ce, this is the 13th ofjune, cabinet — 56 ce, this is the 13th ofjune, cabinet minutes. an agreement is reached _ cabinet minutes. an agreement is reached at — cabinet minutes. an agreement is reached at the end of this cabinet meeting _ reached at the end of this cabinet meeting that it was agreed consideration should be given to restarting — consideration should be given to restarting work on an independence referendum, with the arguments reflecting the experience of the

coronavirus crisis and developments on eu _ coronavirus crisis and developments on eu exit — coronavirus crisis and developments on eu exit. the cabinet agreed on that date, — on eu exit. the cabinet agreed on that date, did they not, to seek to promote _ that date, did they not, to seek to promote the cause of scottish independence by politicising the pandemic? no, independence by politicising the andemic? ., , , . , ., �* pandemic? no, i respectfully don't think that is _ pandemic? no, i respectfully don't think that is a — pandemic? no, i respectfully don't think that is a fair _ pandemic? no, i respectfully don't think that is a fair or— pandemic? no, i respectfully don't think that is a fair or accurate - think that is a fair or accurate reading of that. i remember the meeting. there was no particular discussion. this was a brexit paper. again, we are having to consider issues around brexit stop we had no choice in that matter, this was a brexit paper. i don't, there was no particular discussion around that recommendation, as far as i recall. we agreed that consideration should be given to restarting work. in matter of fact, work did not restart, it was not a consideration that led to that happening. and that is the fact of the matter. we agreed to consider something. i certainly am not aware of being part of any

real consideration because in my mind there was no prospect of starting work on independence at that time. but in any event, it didn't happen. that time. but in any event, it didn't happen-— that time. but in any event, it didn't happen. that time. but in any event, it didn't ha en. ~ , ., ., didn't happen. why would there have been any mention _ didn't happen. why would there have been any mention of— didn't happen. why would there have been any mention of this _ didn't happen. why would there have been any mention of this at - didn't happen. why would there have been any mention of this at all, - been any mention of this at all, given— been any mention of this at all, given mr— been any mention of this at all, given mr russell's announcement? | given mr russell's announcement? i think given mr russell's announcement? think it given mr russell's announcement? i think it would have been very difficult in the context of a debate or a paper on brexit, perhaps, for that not to have, that would have arisen in the context. this is not a covid paper. this conclusion was attached to a paper on eu exit, it was a paper on brexit. the attached to a paper on eu exit, it was a paper on brexit.— attached to a paper on eu exit, it was a paper on brexit. the words say what they say. _ was a paper on brexit. the words say what they say. ms — was a paper on brexit. the words say what they say, ms sturgeon. - what they say, ms sturgeon. consideration should be given to restarting — consideration should be given to restarting work on an independence referendum with the arguments reflecting the experience of the coronavirus crisis. | reflecting the experience of the coronavirus crisis.— reflecting the experience of the coronavirus crisis. i appreciate the word say what _ coronavirus crisis. i appreciate the word say what they _ coronavirus crisis. i appreciate the word say what they say, _ coronavirus crisis. i appreciate the word say what they say, i - coronavirus crisis. i appreciate the word say what they say, i am - coronavirus crisis. i appreciate the word say what they say, i am not l word say what they say, i am not arguing that, but the facts also say what they say, which is that whatever consideration may or may not have been given, i certainly wasn't part of it at that point and if somebody had come to me after

that and said, right, ok, if somebody had come to me after thatand said, right, ok, should if somebody had come to me after that and said, right, ok, should we consider restarting work? i would have said, absolutely not. the facts are that no work did restart on independence at that point. you have told me earlier _ independence at that point. you have told me earlier in _ independence at that point. you have told me earlier in other— independence at that point. you have told me earlier in other contexts - told me earlier in other contexts that commitments are really the highest — that commitments are really the highest source of authority as to what _ highest source of authority as to what was — highest source of authority as to what was actually happening. not in this case, _ what was actually happening. not in this case, apparently? i�*m what was actually happening. not in this case, apparently?— this case, apparently? i'm not sa int this case, apparently? i'm not saying they — this case, apparently? i'm not saying they don't _ this case, apparently? i'm not saying they don't reflect - this case, apparently? i'm not saying they don't reflect an i this case, apparently? i'm not- saying they don't reflect an outcome of cabinet, i'm saying that did not happen. so, we didn't restart work, whether or not cabinet had, somebody in the course of a cabinet meeting had said, we should agree consideration of this, the fact is it didn't happen. fit, consideration of this, the fact is it didn't happen.— consideration of this, the fact is it didn't happen. a few hours after this meeting _ it didn't happen. a few hours after this meeting on _ it didn't happen. a few hours after this meeting on the _ it didn't happen. a few hours after this meeting on the same - it didn't happen. a few hours after this meeting on the same date - it didn't happen. a few hours after this meeting on the same date as| this meeting on the same date as these _ this meeting on the same date as these cabinet minutes, you appear on your regular _ these cabinet minutes, you appear on your regular coronavirus briefing and said. — your regular coronavirus briefing and said, frankly, anybody who is trotting _ and said, frankly, anybody who is trotting out political or constitutional arguments is on the wrong _ constitutional arguments is on the wrong place completely and has found themselves completely lost. is there not a hypocrisy between saying publicly— not a hypocrisy between saying publicly that anyone who is making constitutional arguments during the pandemic— constitutional arguments during the pandemic is in the wrong place and

completely lost, and there having been _ completely lost, and there having been a _ completely lost, and there having been a decision in cabinet hours before _ been a decision in cabinet hours before that there should be a consideration of restarting work on the campaign for independence, reflecting the experience of the coronavirus crisis?— reflecting the experience of the coronavirus crisis? that had not been a significant _ coronavirus crisis? that had not been a significant part - coronavirus crisis? that had not been a significant part of- coronavirus crisis? that had not been a significant part of the i been a significant part of the discussion. it was clearly a comment that was made, otherwise it wouldn't have appeared in the conclusions like that, but i did not leave that cabinet thinking we were about to restart work on independence. and i would have made my view is clear that that was not going to happen, if that had been the case. we didn't restart work on independence. we didn't, you know, we had to, over the course of the pandemic we had to respond to a court case that had been taken about a judicial review that had been taken, you know, governments have to answer peak use of f0 eyes, we had to respond to some brexit —— have governments have to respond to pqs. the team who had

been working on the independence referendum had at the start of the pandemic being redeployed to other work. m5 pandemic being redeployed to other work. ~ , ,, ., ., , pandemic being redeployed to other work. a ,, ., ., , ., ., work. ms sturgeon, that is not a comment- _ work. ms sturgeon, that is not a comment. the _ work. ms sturgeon, that is not a comment. the minutes - work. ms sturgeon, that is not a comment. the minutes read, . work. ms sturgeon, that is not a - comment. the minutes read, agreed, that means _ comment. the minutes read, agreed, that means cabinet _ comment. the minutes read, agreed, that means cabinet agreed, _ comment. the minutes read, agreed, that means cabinet agreed, doesn't l that means cabinet agreed, doesn't it? so— that means cabinet agreed, doesn't it? so are _ that means cabinet agreed, doesn't it? so are you— that means cabinet agreed, doesn't it? so are you saying _ that means cabinet agreed, doesn't it? so are you saying you _ that means cabinet agreed, doesn't it? so are you saying you would - that means cabinet agreed, doesn'tl it? so are you saying you would have overruled _ it? so are you saying you would have overruled cabinet? _ it? so are you saying you would have overruled cabinet? lett— it? so are you saying you would have overruled cabinet?— overruled cabinet? let me be clear what i mean- _ overruled cabinet? let me be clear what i mean. it _ overruled cabinet? let me be clear what i mean. it was _ overruled cabinet? let me be clear what i mean. it was clearly - overruled cabinet? let me be clear what i mean. it was clearly some l overruled cabinet? let me be clear l what i mean. it was clearly some cab billie comment made on that cabinet meeting that said, maybe we should think about starting to restart work on independence. remember, this is a point where we had, going into the summer of 2020 where cases were falling at... its not a comment, it's an agreement by cabinet? _ its not a comment, it's an agreement b cabinet? �* its not a comment, it's an agreement by cabinet?— by cabinet? agreed that consideration _ by cabinet? agreed that consideration had - by cabinet? agreed that consideration had beenl by cabinet? agreed that - consideration had been given. if somebody came to me afterwards and said we have done a process of consideration and we think we should restart working on independence, i would have said i didn't want to do that. i would have said to cabinet, let's not do that, it is not the right time to do that. more

materially, that didn't happen. nobody came to me and