route map the country through the route map that we had set out at the end of may. we got to a point where we could not go to the final phase of that, because of the epidemiology at the time. we then had a period where, instead of reimposing measures, we were able to deal with outbreaks. we had some very localised outbreaks. we dealt with them through specific measures, and then the level system was applied. and contrary to we didn't do anything to prepare for a second wave, we had continued to build up the testing and contact tracing capacity there that was a necessary part of trying to mitigate and minimise a second wave and deal with that as it happened. as it happened, we didn't go into a second lockdown

in november 2020 in scotland. the second lockdown in scotland came when the alpha variant came along. so i don't accept that our eye was off the ball. i think we were taking difficult decisions, reaching difficult decisions, reaching difficult balances, in the best way that we possibly could. and i think the evidence, overall, is that while our response was far from... far from avoiding all of the horrible, horrendous harm that was done, i would say an assessment of the outcomes, overall, suggests that while our approach was far from perfect, it actually managed to mitigate some harm that perhaps wasn't mitigated in some other places. wasn't mitigated in some other laces. ., ,,., wasn't mitigated in some other laces. ., ~ wasn't mitigated in some other laces. ., ., , places. professor mark woolhouse states that the _

places. professor mark woolhouse states that the start _ places. professor mark woolhouse states that the start of _ places. professor mark woolhouse states that the start of the - places. professor mark woolhouse states that the start of the vaccine i states that the start of the vaccine roll-out, _ states that the start of the vaccine roll—out, the vaccine campaign which started _ roll—out, the vaccine campaign which started towards the end of 2020, 2021. _ started towards the end of 2020, 2021, it _ started towards the end of 2020, 2021, it created a false impression that the _ 2021, it created a false impression that the pandemic would soon be over, _ that the pandemic would soon be over. and — that the pandemic would soon be over, and described it as overoptimistic. when we looked at your direct — overoptimistic. when we looked at your direct messages with professor sridhar. _ your direct messages with professor sridhar, when i asked why the messages stopped at the end of 2020, .ave messages stopped at the end of 2020, gave the _ messages stopped at the end of 2020, gave the answer that when the vaccine — gave the answer that when the vaccine arrived, input of the nature i had _ vaccine arrived, input of the nature i had been — vaccine arrived, input of the nature i had been providing with regard to fighting _ i had been providing with regard to fighting the virus was no longer necessary. was it your view, and that of— necessary. was it your view, and that of the — necessary. was it your view, and that of the scottish government, that of the scottish government, that the — that of the scottish government, that the pandemic would soon be over as the _ that the pandemic would soon be over as the result of the arrival of the vaccine? — as the result of the arrival of the vaccine? ., ,. . . as the result of the arrival of the vaccine? ., . . ., vaccine? no. the pandemic, we are no loner in a vaccine? no. the pandemic, we are no longer in a pandemic, _ vaccine? no. the pandemic, we are no longer in a pandemic, but— vaccine? no. the pandemic, we are no longer in a pandemic, but people - vaccine? no. the pandemic, we are no longer in a pandemic, but people are l longer in a pandemic, but people are dying from covid every week as we speak. last year, i think 2000 people died of covid. it has not gone away. arguably, it will never gone away. arguably, it will never go away. i have never believed

otherwise. in fact, at points i faced criticism for almost suggesting the alternative, i was criticised for being the voice of doom around covid. what happened with the vaccine was that we entered a different phase. we entered a phase where, unlike the situation until that point, we haven't talked yet... i don't know if we will talk about the scottish government approach to the four harms. we have no way of mitigating the direct health impact, so it was to mitigate harm overall. a particularfocus on mitigating harm i and 2. when the vaccine came along, we had a way of mitigating harm i without restrictions, so we were able to move on to 3 and 4. we entered a

different phase of the pandemic because of the impact of vaccination. that is why, across the four nations, we put such a great emphasis on as fast as possible a roll—out of the vaccination campaign. roll-out of the vaccination campaign-— roll-out of the vaccination camaiun. ., ., roll-out of the vaccination camaiun. ., . ., roll-out of the vaccination campaign. could i ask you to look at moooomm, — campaign. could i ask you to look at moooosmsz, please? _ campaign. could i ask you to look at in0000334792, please? returningl campaign. could i ask you to look at i in0000334792, please? returning to the exchange between humza yousaf and professor leech, on the 10th of june 2021~ — and professor leech, on the 10th of june 2021. , �* ., , again, this is an exchange injune of 2021 _ again, this is an exchange injune of 2021 we — again, this is an exchange injune of 2021. we looked at this with the

current— of 2021. we looked at this with the current first minister, and one of the characteristics of the fight against — the characteristics of the fight against the virus in 2021 was that there _ against the virus in 2021 was that there were — against the virus in 2021 was that there were a number of large events that run— there were a number of large events that run the — there were a number of large events that run the risk of spreading virus. — that run the risk of spreading virus. and _ that run the risk of spreading virus, and the decision needed to be taken _ virus, and the decision needed to be taken about— virus, and the decision needed to be taken about whether they should be allowed _ taken about whether they should be allowed to go to or not. this was around _ allowed to go to or not. this was around the — allowed to go to or not. this was around the decision—making with regards — around the decision—making with regards to— around the decision—making with regards to the possibility of cancelling a fanzone that had been put together for the euros in glasgow, which was eventually attowed — glasgow, which was eventually allowed to go ahead. the exchange says. _ allowed to go ahead. the exchange says, professor leitch says that the first minister's instinct says to cancel— first minister's instinct says to cancel the _ first minister's instinct says to cancel the fanzone, and ken will gather— cancel the fanzone, and ken will gather information to reply. he replies. — gather information to reply. he replies, yes, she wants more detail run costs— replies, yes, she wants more detail run costs involved if we cancel. there _ run costs involved if we cancel. there is — run costs involved if we cancel. there is discussion about how much it would _ there is discussion about how much it would cost, £6 million was mentioned. at 11.53, mryousaf

it would cost, £6 million was mentioned. at 11.53, mr yousaf says it seems— mentioned. at 11.53, mr yousaf says it seems cheap, i would have expected _ it seems cheap, i would have expected that they will look for compensation from the food and drug setters _ compensation from the food and drug sellers. she could hold the line and see how _ sellers. she could hold the line and see how we — sellers. she could hold the line and see how we get on, and what the scenes— see how we get on, and what the scenes look like on monday, if people — scenes look like on monday, if people behave, it might settle her nerves _ people behave, it might settle her nerves. professor leitch says it is costs _ nerves. professor leitch says it is costs not — nerves. professor leitch says it is costs not profit, and she needs to do it— costs not profit, and she needs to do it before — costs not profit, and she needs to do it before or at fm 0 or before. mr yousaf— do it before or at fm 0 or before. mr yousaf says, from knowing her for 15 years. _ mr yousaf says, from knowing her for 15 years. it _ mr yousaf says, from knowing her for 15years. it is— mr yousaf says, from knowing her for 15 years, it is not often her instincts _ 15 years, it is not often her instincts are wrong. both professor leitch _ instincts are wrong. both professor leitch and — instincts are wrong. both professor leitch and mr yousaf, the then cabinet — leitch and mr yousaf, the then cabinet secretary for health and social— cabinet secretary for health and social care seem to be describing the ultimate decision taken in connection of the possible cancellation of this event as a ntatter— cancellation of this event as a matter which will be governed by your instincts. that is how you made decisions _ your instincts. that is how you made decisions during the course of the pandemic, — decisions during the course of the pandemic, wasn't it? | decisions during the course of the pandemic, wasn't it?— decisions during the course of the pandemic, wasn't it? i think at the fanzone being _ pandemic, wasn't it? i think at the fanzone being cancelled, - pandemic, wasn't it? i think at the fanzone being cancelled, that -

pandemic, wasn't it? i think at the fanzone being cancelled, that is l pandemic, wasn't it? i think at the | fanzone being cancelled, that is an accusation, based on this exchange, could have been made of me. but it was not cancelled. therefore, my instinct did not govern the decision. my instinct was that, the euros, delayed by a year, were happening. the fanzone made me nervous about people coming together in that way, given what we were dealing with. i asked for further advice and consideration. that came back and i was persuaded to come on the basis of the advice, that my instinct was not what we should go with, we should go with the advice. that is the position. in managing something like this, you have instincts about what a sensible or not, on a whole host of things. if i made decisions purely on the basis of that, it would be deeply misguided, but i didn't. i had an instinct, i probed the question, i asked for advice through proper channels, i consider that advice carefully. 0n the basis of that, i

agreed it should go ahead. as it turns out, i think it was the right decision to allow it to go ahead, because the risks i have been worried about did not materialise. would you agree with the proposition that the _ would you agree with the proposition that the scottish government for the pandemic— that the scottish government for the pandemic strategy was run on your instincts? — pandemic strategy was run on your instincts? ., pandemic strategy was run on your instincts? no. decisions were made not b instincts? i457. decisions were made not by cabinet, but by you and a small— not by cabinet, but by you and a small bundle trusted advisors? asl small bundle trusted advisors? as i said earlier — small bundle trusted advisors? as i said earlier on, _ small bundle trusted advisors? as i said earlier on, i _ small bundle trusted advisors? " i said earlier on, i think the evidence before the inquiry of the cabinet papers and the cabinet minutes shows that is not the case. i was the first minister. i have a responsibility to lead, to try to see the whole picture, when cabinet secretaries rightly and properly are focused on their own portfolio interests. in any leadership position, you have instincts, you learn to trust and when not to trust

your instincts. as this exchange... again, if this exchange had ended with her instinct is to cancel the fanzone and at 12 o'clock at first minister questions i stood up and announce the cancellation, that would prove the proposition you are putting to me. but it didn't. i had an instinct, i tested it with the experts, i asked for advice, i considered that advice and, on the basis of that advice, i decided the opposite of what my instinct had started out telling me. part opposite of what my instinct had started out telling me.— opposite of what my instinct had started out telling me. part of your instinct is based _ started out telling me. part of your instinct is based on _ started out telling me. part of your instinct is based on desire - started out telling me. part of your instinct is based on desire to - instinct is based on desire to advance _ instinct is based on desire to advance the cause of scottish independence, isn't it? not advance the cause of scottish independence, isn't it? not in the management— independence, isn't it? not in the management of — independence, isn't it? not in the management of the _ independence, isn't it? not in the management of the pandemic. i l independence, isn't it? not in the - management of the pandemic. i don't think i am breaking any news today to say that i have spent a lifetime campaigning for independence. i will no doubt continue to campaign for

independence. i knowi no doubt continue to campaign for independence. i know i will. but when in a position of leadership and decision—making, you are confronted with a global fund decision—making, you are confronted with a globalfund direct decision—making, you are confronted with a global fund direct and decision—making, you are confronted with a globalfund direct and i remember sitting one night, and probably february 2020, in bute house, with a set of reasonable worst case scenario figures in front of me, and a figure for the potential number of deaths, but might unfold, that thankfully didn't unfold at that level, my instincts became something completely different. in that moment, my only instinct, and instinct i brought to the management of the pandemic, was how do i need a government that makes the best possible decisions in horrific circumstances to try to minimise the harm this virus is going to do. people make their own judgments about me, my government my decisions. foras judgments about me, my government my decisions. for as long as i live, i

will carry the impact of these decisions, i will carry regret at the decisions and judgments i got wrong, but i will always know in my heart and in my soul that my instincts and my motivation was nothing other than trying to do the best in the face of this pandemic. it was your instinct to seek to create — it was your instinct to seek to create a — it was your instinct to seek to create a difference between your approach — create a difference between your approach and that of the uk government, despite the obvious need in the _ government, despite the obvious need in the face _ government, despite the obvious need in the face of the virus for a collaborative strategy, wasn't it? no, it _ collaborative strategy, wasn't it? no, it wasn't. it was my instinct to do everything i thought was necessary and appropriate to minimise harm to the people of scotland. that was my instinct. and where that necessitates being different to the uk government, it was more important to me that we did what we thought in scotland was right than it was in aligning with decisions we thought were wrong and would potentially increase harm,

rather than minimise harm. ifeel to my core that the number of lives lost to this pandemic were far too high. we were never going to be able to get through a pandemic with no loss of life. i think it was far too high, ithink loss of life. i think it was far too high, i think the other impacts were far too high. and every death is a tragedy that i regret, and the people in this room and outside across the country are living with the grief and trauma of. so, we didn't do as well as i wish we were able to. i think i quoted the evidence to the inquiry from sir ian diamond. 0n the age standardised mortality measure, the one that he saysis mortality measure, the one that he says is legitimate, the deaths in scotland were significantly lower than in other parts of the uk, far

too high, but it says to me that evenif too high, but it says to me that even if it was only at the margins, our decision—making managed to minimise the harm, to some extent. that was my duty. it was your instinct to seek to move away from existing structures, which had been designed to try to manage procedures in this type of situation, like cobra and sage, and to form your own? if i could address sage and cobra, it was not my decision how often it met. the prime minister at the time decided not to have cobra meetings. i was not able to convene them at my own hand. so i am not responsible for the frequency of cobra meetings. sage, ithought sage did a very good job during the pandemic. at the outset of the

pandemic, i thought the quality of advice coming from sage was very high. i had two concerns about it, about having at is the sole source of advice. 0ne about having at is the sole source of advice. one was, understandably, this is not a criticism, its advice was not necessarily tailored to the demographics, the health profile, the epidemiology in scotland. secondly, i had no ability, i didn't even know at the start of the pandemic who was on sage. i had no ability as a first minister to speak directly to people in sage and ask them questions to deepen my understanding. so, iasked them questions to deepen my understanding. so, i asked for an advisory group to be established in scotland, not to replace sage, but to help fill those gaps. sage and the advisory group, and putting on record my deep thanks to andrew morris, who chaired the advisory group, established reciprocity. andrew became a member of sage and

papers were shared. it was not seeking to replace sage, it was augmenting and supplementing sage, so i felt the functions that sage was not able to perform for the scottish government were delivered in that way. it scottish government were delivered in that wa . . , . scottish government were delivered in that wa . ., . i. scottish government were delivered inthatwa . . , . in that way. it was a your instinct to be seen _ in that way. it was a your instinct to be seen to _ in that way. it was a your instinct to be seen to be _ in that way. it was a your instinct to be seen to be following - in that way. it was a your instinct to be seen to be following a - to be seen to be following a different path to the uk government and to— different path to the uk government and to get— different path to the uk government and to get your word in public first, — and to get your word in public first, wasn't it?— and to get your word in public first, wasn't it? no. it was your to kee first, wasn't it? ila. it was your to keep decision—making secret, as regards — keep decision—making secret, as regards the way the decisions were ultimately reached, the process by which _ ultimately reached, the process by which they were made, recorded and retained? _ which they were made, recorded and retained? no. which they were made, recorded and retained? ., ~' retained? no. i thinki delivered more than _ retained? no. i thinki delivered more than 250 _ retained? no. ithinki delivered more than 250 public— retained? no. i thinki delivered more than 250 public addresses | retained? no. ithinki delivered - more than 250 public addresses over the course of the pandemic, where i answered. people willjudge the quality of my answers in the way that they want. i did not take one or two matter questions, i answered every question that came to me. i sought at every stage to be open, to

be transparent, to level with the public about the complexity of this, the difficulties, the almost impossible balances we were trying to strike, and what we were taking into account in coming to the decisions we were coming to. it was in our decisions we were coming to. it was in your instinct _ decisions we were coming to. it was in your instinct to _ decisions we were coming to. it was in your instinct to think _ decisions we were coming to. it was in your instinct to think you - decisions we were coming to. it was in your instinct to think you knew i in your instinct to think you knew best, _ in your instinct to think you knew best, rendering the published strategies of the government on the apparent _ strategies of the government on the apparent advisory structures around you nothing more than, to use mark woolhouse's words, rhetoric? absolutely not. we implement the strategies of the government, to the extent that the virus allowed us to. we changed and adapted them in line with how the virus was operating. i was reviewing some of the minutes of the covid advisory group in preparation for today, the covid advisory group in preparation fortoday, under the covid advisory group in preparation for today, under the minutes frequently have the scottish goverment officials reporting about how highly i valued the advice of the group, and then saying how much

they value the opportunities through they value the opportunities through the deep dives for us to stick together, and for me to ask them questions, and for them to be able to help. i did not know best, and thatis to help. i did not know best, and that is why i sought to take advice from as broad a range of people as i could. it's why i reached out to people such as professor sridhar, i read everything i could get my hands on. i did not know best, and i was assisted at every step by first class clinical and medical and scientific advisers, by senior civil servants. principally in the scottish government, but let me put on record that was the case, many people in the uk government, people i chris whitty and patrick vallance, jonathan van—tam, people who were hugely helpful to me and the scottish goverment. i would not have been able to get through the task i had without their advice and expertise that i benefited from on a

daily basis. it expertise that i benefited from on a dail basis. . , , ., , . ., daily basis. it was your instinct to seek to portray — daily basis. it was your instinct to seek to portray yourself - daily basis. it was your instinct to seek to portray yourself as - daily basis. it was your instinct to seek to portray yourself as open l daily basis. it was your instinct to i seek to portray yourself as open and honest— seek to portray yourself as open and honest with — seek to portray yourself as open and honest with the public, but at the same _ honest with the public, but at the same time — honest with the public, but at the same time to keep from them important elements of the management? such as the conference, the care _ management? such as the conference, the care home deaths and the advice around _ the care home deaths and the advice around the _ the care home deaths and the advice around the rugby, which allowed covid _ around the rugby, which allowed covid into— around the rugby, which allowed covid into scotland in the first place? — covid into scotland in the first lace? �* ., , ., covid into scotland in the first lace? ., , . place? i'm not sure that last statement — place? i'm not sure that last statement would _ place? i'm not sure that last statement would be - place? i'm not sure that last - statement would be established by facts. i stand to be corrected. public health scotland, the survey, the study that was done later in 2020, look at the different ways covid came to scotland. i don't think it will be reasonable to draw from that statement that the rugby brought the virus into scotland. i stand to be corrected if i am wrong. i have tried to display as clearly as i can the legitimate reasons

around nike. i can't understand how people think that was the wrong judgment. i keep saying there are thousands upon thousands of pages of cabinet papers and cabinet minutes that set out, if that was all that was available on the record, sets out a comprehensive, full and detailed explanation of the decisions we reached, the choices we face and the reasons that drove our decision—making. the face and the reasons that drove our decision-making.— decision-making. the people of scotland deserve _ decision-making. the people of scotland deserve better- decision-making. the people of scotland deserve better than i decision-making. the people of scotland deserve better than a| scotland deserve better than a pandemic strategy run on your instincts. _ pandemic strategy run on your instincts, did they not, mr sturgeon?— instincts, did they not, mr sturgeon? instincts, did they not, mr sturaeon? , ., . , sturgeon? they do indeed, which is wh the sturgeon? they do indeed, which is why they did _ sturgeon? they do indeed, which is why they did not — sturgeon? they do indeed, which is why they did not get _ sturgeon? they do indeed, which is why they did not get a _ sturgeon? they do indeed, which is why they did not get a pandemic . sturgeon? they do indeed, which is| why they did not get a pandemic run on instincts. brute why they did not get a pandemic run on instincts-— on instincts. we started these evidential— on instincts. we started these evidential hearings _ on instincts. we started these evidential hearings a - on instincts. we started these evidential hearings a couple . on instincts. we started these | evidential hearings a couple of weeks — evidential hearings a couple of weeks ago with oral evidence from mrs jane _ weeks ago with oral evidence from mrs jane morrison, a representative of the _ mrs jane morrison, a representative of the scottish coded bereaved group. — of the scottish coded bereaved group, whose wife died of 19 rocco acguired _ group, whose wife died of 19 rocco acquired in— group, whose wife died of 19 rocco acquired in a hospital in 2020. the

group _ acquired in a hospital in 2020. the group had — acquired in a hospital in 2020. the group had sought answers about matters — group had sought answers about matters of significant concern to them. _ matters of significant concern to them. and — matters of significant concern to them, and a pandemic, in a meeting with you _ them, and a pandemic, in a meeting with you in— them, and a pandemic, in a meeting with you in 2021. —— who died of covid _ with you in 2021. —— who died of covid in — with you in 2021. —— who died of covid in a — with you in 2021. —— who died of covid. in a statement to the inquiry. _ covid. in a statement to the inquiry, the remaining representatives of those who died, these _ representatives of those who died, these words appear. hubris does not stop a _ these words appear. hubris does not stop a pandemic. the story of covid in scotland — stop a pandemic. the story of covid in scotland is the story of the hubris— in scotland is the story of the hubris of— in scotland is the story of the hubris of nicola sturgeon, is it not? _ hubris of nicola sturgeon, is it not? ., ., ., , ., ., hubris of nicola sturgeon, is it not? ., ., ., , . not? no. i do not believe that to be the case. not? no. i do not believe that to be the case- i— not? no. i do not believe that to be the case- i am _ not? no. i do not believe that to be the case. i am in _ not? no. i do not believe that to be the case. i am in the _ not? no. i do not believe that to be the case. i am in the fortunate - the case. i am in the fortunate position of not having personally lost anybody to covid. i wish with every fibre of my being that the decisions in my government could have reduced the number of people in scotland who did lose someone to covid. i am deeply sorry to each and every bereaved person, and each and

every bereaved person, and each and every person who has suffered in other ways. every person who has suffered in otherways. i every person who has suffered in other ways. i did my best, the government did their best, and people willjudge that. we did our best to steer the country through the pandemic and the best way we could. . ~' ,, the pandemic and the best way we could. . ., i. ., could. thank you, no further questions- — could. thank you, no further questions. there _ could. thank you, no further questions. there are - could. thank you, no further questions. there are some l questions. there are some questions... | questions. there are some questions. . ._ questions. there are some cuestions... ~ ~ n , questions... i think mr mccaffrey has some questions. _ lam i am instructed lam instructed behalf i am instructed behalf of scottish covid _ i am instructed behalf of scottish covid bereaved. in reference to your statement. — covid bereaved. in reference to your statement, and your evidence this morning _ statement, and your evidence this morning that you wish to deepen your knowiedge _ morning that you wish to deepen your knowledge about the virus, i would like to— knowledge about the virus, i would like to take you to paragraph 149,

subparagraph b of the statement. it relates— subparagraph b of the statement. it relates to _ subparagraph b of the statement. it relates to you inquiring as to the possibility— relates to you inquiring as to the possibility of asymptomatic transmission. you will see that it says. _ transmission. you will see that it says, whether covid—19 could be spread _ says, whether covid—19 could be spread person to person asymptomatic, the initial advice i received — asymptomatic, the initial advice i received was that asymptomatic transmission was not possible. my private _ transmission was not possible. my private office replied on my behalf, and at _ private office replied on my behalf, and at my— private office replied on my behalf, and at my request, with the following query. the first minister read information online in the last 24 hours. — read information online in the last 24 hours, including references to an article _ 24 hours, including references to an article on _ 24 hours, including references to an article on yesterday's lancet, suggested the opposite of this. that is that— suggested the opposite of this. that is that people may be infectious before _ is that people may be infectious before being sent to matter. what is the very— before being sent to matter. what is the very certain statement in paragraph 14 based on? i received further— paragraph 14 based on? i received further advice for public health scotland — further advice for public health scotland on the 25th ofjanuary. it included _ scotland on the 25th ofjanuary. it included the following extracts. it is likely— included the following extracts. it is likely that person—to—person transmission, when it does occur, mostly— transmission, when it does occur, mostly involves transmission of

virus _ mostly involves transmission of virus from — mostly involves transmission of virus from people with symptoms, and infected _ virus from people with symptoms, and infected people with symptoms. for example. _ infected people with symptoms. for example, somebody who is coughing. they are _ example, somebody who is coughing. they are much more likely to spread the virus _ they are much more likely to spread the virus around than somebody who is infected _ the virus around than somebody who is infected but free of symptoms. the evidence and advice on asymptomatic transmission remained uncertain— asymptomatic transmission remained uncertain until around april or may 2020. _ uncertain until around april or may 2020. after— uncertain until around april or may 2020, after which there seemed to be more of— 2020, after which there seemed to be more of an— 2020, after which there seemed to be more of an acceptance that asymptomatic transmission was an issue _ asymptomatic transmission was an issue my— asymptomatic transmission was an issue. my question is therefore why then. _ issue. my question is therefore why then. if— issue. my question is therefore why then. if by— issue. my question is therefore why then, if by that date you knew that asymptomatic transfer was possible, would _ asymptomatic transfer was possible, would you _ asymptomatic transfer was possible, would you consider that releasing people _ would you consider that releasing people from hospital to care homes, but only— people from hospital to care homes, but only testing if they had symptoms, was any protection at all? and on— symptoms, was any protection at all? and on the _ symptoms, was any protection at all? and on the basis of this advice received — and on the basis of this advice received from public health scotland that asymptomatic transmission was a possibility. _ that asymptomatic transmission was a possibility, why was it maintained that there — possibility, why was it maintained that there was any uncertainty about this issue? _ that there was any uncertainty about this issue? would it not have been prudent— this issue? would it not have been prudent to — this issue? would it not have been prudent to have erred on the side of safety? _

prudent to have erred on the side of safe ? . ~ prudent to have erred on the side of safe ? . ., i. .. prudent to have erred on the side of safe ? . , , safety? thank you. ifi can briefly, as ou safety? thank you. ifi can briefly, as you can — safety? thank you. ifi can briefly, as you can see _ safety? thank you. ifi can briefly, as you can see from _ safety? thank you. ifi can briefly, as you can see from my _ safety? thank you. ifi can briefly, as you can see from my evidence l safety? thank you. ifi can briefly, i as you can see from my evidence and the extracts from advice, and my responses to that advice, if i can summarise, i think, responses to that advice, if i can summarise, ithink, as responses to that advice, if i can summarise, i think, as it can be seen there, the issue of uncertainty was not so much a binary one was there or was there not the possibility of asymptomatic transmission, the uncertainty the extent to which that was a serious issue. and certainly the advice that came to me, and i think the advice from the who, certainly into the spring, perhaps early summer of 2020, was that there was uncertainty and disagreement about whether it was a very small risk or a much more substantial risk. notwithstanding uncertainty around asymptomatic transmission, what there also was, and certainly advice that came to the scottish government was

uncertainty about the reliability of testing in people who either were asymptomatic or presymptomatic. there was a concern, and it wasn't a suggestion that casting was not important, but there was a concern. and this was a concern that was still being expressed to the scottish government in april, when the cabinet secretary changed the position due testing of all admissions from care homes, from hospitals to care homes, there was a concern that testing on its own could give rise to false assurance. somebody who tested negative may still have the virus if they were asymptomatic. that is why the early advice around care homes focused very much on isolation and keeping people separate. and notwithstanding

the limited testing availability of the limited testing availability of the time, there was a concern that testing on its own would not be sufficient to guard against the risks. 0r care homes in particular, i think there are very serious issues for all of us to reflect on. testing is undoubtedly a significant part of that. discharges from hospitals in particular are a very serious part of that. they are not shying away from that. i also think there are other issues around what they have to take responsibility for that we should not lose sight of on testing. the report that public health scotland did in 202020 about discharges from hospital shows that almost all care homes in scotland from a period to march until may had discharges from hospital. but only a

third of the care homes had an outbreak of covid, or had residents who died from covid. so, that suggests that, yes, discharges and the circumstances of discharges must be looked at seriously. and the number of deaths were very heavily concentrated and relatively small numbers of care homes. there are other issues that i think we need to probe very seriously around the structure and size of the care home sector, the resources and regulation in care homes. these are all profoundly important issues. testing is a significant and important part of that. but my view is that there are other aspects of that that we must also make sure we consider in the course of a full examination around the situation in care homes. that takes us back to the latter part of— that takes us back to the latter part of the question, with all that uncertainty and the lack of capacity and testing, would it not have been

prudent— and testing, would it not have been prudent to — and testing, would it not have been prudent to air on the side of safety is not _ prudent to air on the side of safety is not discharged to when we were on the early. _ is not discharged to when we were on the early, and i'm talking here about— the early, and i'm talking here about late february into where somebody didn't have any medical need _ somebody didn't have any medical need to— somebody didn't have any medical need to be — somebody didn't have any medical need to be a hospital, to be discharged. that's generally true at all, countries like italy, hospitals filling— all, countries like italy, hospitals filling up— all, countries like italy, hospitals filling up with covid patients. yes, we wanted — filling up with covid patients. yes, we wanted to make sure we had available — we wanted to make sure we had available capacity in our hospitals to deal— available capacity in our hospitals to deal with people who needed hospital— to deal with people who needed hospital treatment, to deal with people who needed hospitaltreatment, but to deal with people who needed hospital treatment, but there was also a _ hospital treatment, but there was also a concern that hospitals would not have _ also a concern that hospitals would not have been safe for people who did not— not have been safe for people who did not need to be in hospital. i do not think— did not need to be in hospital. i do not think that we got everything right— not think that we got everything

right around hospitals and care homes. — right around hospitals and care homes, and i deeply regret that. i also know— homes, and i deeply regret that. i also know that it was not the case that we _ also know that it was not the case that we did — also know that it was not the case that we did not think about the best way to— that we did not think about the best way to protect people in care homes. there _ way to protect people in care homes. there were _ way to protect people in care homes. there were undoubtedly floors and deficiencies in the guidance, but the advice — deficiencies in the guidance, but the advice at that time was that isolation. — the advice at that time was that isolation, keeping people as separate as possible, was the best way to _ separate as possible, was the best way to protect people in care homes. clearly. _ way to protect people in care homes. clearly. that — way to protect people in care homes. clearly, that did not have the effect we wanted it to. of all of the important issues around this pandemic, the situation in care homes is one of the most important to properly scrutinise and understand. i am simply saying that i think testing is an important part of that. but, for me, it raises a lot of other issues about care homes, the care home sector, how we sought to protect people and the effectiveness of that. and i think

it is in the interests, and a duty to those that are bereaved, who have lost people in care homes, that we do understand that in the fullest possible way. #metoo can i ask you to try to keep our #metoo can i ask you to try to keep your responses _ #metoo can i ask you to try to keep your responses as _ #metoo can i ask you to try to keep your responses as short _ #metoo can i ask you to try to keep your responses as short as - #metoo can i ask you to try to keepj your responses as short as possible. 0bviously— your responses as short as possible. obviously we — your responses as short as possible. obviously we are _ your responses as short as possible. obviously we are limited _ your responses as short as possible. obviously we are limited in- your responses as short as possible. obviously we are limited in time - your responses as short as possible. obviously we are limited in time and we want _ obviously we are limited in time and we want to— obviously we are limited in time and we want to try — obviously we are limited in time and we want to try to _ obviously we are limited in time and we want to try to get _ obviously we are limited in time and we want to try to get through - we want to try to get through as many— we want to try to get through as many questions _ we want to try to get through as many questions as _ we want to try to get through as many questions as we _ we want to try to get through as many questions as we can. - we want to try to get through as . many questions as we can. moving we want to try to get through as - many questions as we can. moving on to document — many questions as we can. moving on to document reference... _ many questions as we can. moving on to document reference... that - many questions as we can. moving on to document reference... that shouldj to document reference... that should come _ to document reference... that should come up _ to document reference... that should come up on _ to document reference... that should come up on screen. _ to document reference... that should come up on screen, page _ to document reference... that should come up on screen, page four- to document reference... that should come up on screen, page four of- to document reference... that should come up on screen, page four of that| come up on screen, page four of that document _ come up on screen, page four of that document. didn't— come up on screen, page four of that document. didn't your— come up on screen, page four of that document. didn't your inquiries - come up on screen, page four of that document. didn't your inquiries at. document. didn't your inquiries at the end _ document. didn't your inquiries at the end of— document. didn't your inquiries at the end ofjanuary, _ document. didn't your inquiries at the end ofjanuary, when - document. didn't your inquiries at the end ofjanuary, when public. the end ofjanuary, when public health — the end ofjanuary, when public health scotland _ the end ofjanuary, when public health scotland explained - the end ofjanuary, when public health scotland explained that| health scotland explained that asymptomatic— health scotland explained that asymptomatic transfer- health scotland explained that asymptomatic transfer could . health scotland explained that - asymptomatic transfer could occur, in response — asymptomatic transfer could occur, in response to _ asymptomatic transfer could occur, in response to your— asymptomatic transfer could occur, in response to your question - asymptomatic transfer could occur, in response to your question aboutl in response to your question about it, in response to your question about it. mean— in response to your question about it. mean that— in response to your question about it. mean that you _ in response to your question about it, mean that you did _ in response to your question about it, mean that you did indeed - in response to your question about it, mean that you did indeed know| it, mean that you did indeed know about— it, mean that you did indeed know about a _ it, mean that you did indeed know about a symptomatic _ it, mean that you did indeed know about a symptomatic transfer - it, mean that you did indeed know about a symptomatic transfer at l it, mean that you did indeed know. about a symptomatic transfer at the relevant _ about a symptomatic transfer at the relevant time? _ about a symptomatic transfer at the relevant time? so _ about a symptomatic transfer at the relevant time? so they— about a symptomatic transfer at the relevant time? so they phrase - about a symptomatic transfer at the l relevant time? so they phrase quoted there that _ relevant time? so they phrase quoted there that we — relevant time? so they phrase quoted there that we see _ relevant time? so they phrase quoted there that we see on— relevant time? so they phrase quoted there that we see on screen, - relevant time? so they phrase quoted there that we see on screen, and - relevant time? so they phrase quoted there that we see on screen, and we i there that we see on screen, and we didn't— there that we see on screen, and we didn't know— there that we see on screen, and we didn't know what _ there that we see on screen, and we didn't know what we _ there that we see on screen, and we didn't know what we know— there that we see on screen, and we didn't know what we know now - there that we see on screen, and we| didn't know what we know now about asymptomatic— didn't know what we know now about asymptomatic transmission- didn't know what we know now about asymptomatic transmission was - didn't know what we know now about asymptomatic transmission was in i asymptomatic transmission was in fact correct? —

asymptomatic transmission was in fact correct?—