we are now less trusting, less confident in our system of government than we have been at any point during the last a0 or 50 years. joining us today, former attorney general, conservative sir geoffrey cox, labour's dame margaret hodge, the general secretary of the rmt, mick lynch and the editor of city am andy silvester. this is politics live — election 202a. welcome to viewers on bbc2, bbc iplayer & bbc news let's start with the headline on bbc news, the uk economy fails to grow during wet april. gdp figures out today show exactly that, the office for national statistics reporting no

growth for the month which was broadly in line with economist expectations. the sluggishness comes after the uk economy recorded its fastest growth in two years from january to march, exiting the recession it fell into in the final half of last year. but my opening question starting with you, geoffrey cox, is rishi sunak right to say the economy has turned a corner? i think he is, no economy has turned a corner? i think he is. no doubt _ economy has turned a corner? i think he is, no doubt about _ economy has turned a corner? i think he is, no doubt about that. _ economy has turned a corner? i think he is, no doubt about that. all - he is, no doubt about that. all predictions show that growth will continue this year an increase next year and inflation is down to 2.3 and we can look in the next two or three months to cuts in interest rates. it's definitely turned the corner, no doubt about that. this is one month of figures. it is corner, no doubt about that. this is one month of figures.— one month of figures. it is flat. rain stepped — one month of figures. it is flat. rain stepped play _ one month of figures. it is flat. rain stopped play is _ one month of figures. it is flat. rain stopped play is the - one month of figures. it is flat. l rain stopped play is the headline for april. it rain stopped play is the headline for a - ril. . , rain stopped play is the headline foraril. ., , . for april. it was priced in, in the sense most _ for april. it was priced in, in the sense most economists - for april. it was priced in, in the sense most economists as - for april. it was priced in, in the sense most economists as you i for april. it was priced in, in the i sense most economists as you say believed it was going to happen and it is still a long—term prediction of growth. that is turning the corner. do you agree, rishi sunak is

right? corner. do you agree, rishi sunak is riuht? ~ , ., corner. do you agree, rishi sunak is ri.ht?,,, , ., ~ ., corner. do you agree, rishi sunak is riuht? ~ , ., ~ ., ., right? absolutely not. what we have seen is the flat _ right? absolutely not. what we have seen is the flat lining _ right? absolutely not. what we have seen is the flat lining of _ right? absolutely not. what we have seen is the flat lining of the - seen is the flat lining of the economy— seen is the flat lining of the economy that we've had during the 14 years— economy that we've had during the 14 years of— economy that we've had during the 14 years of chaos we have experienced under _ years of chaos we have experienced under the _ years of chaos we have experienced under the conservative government and most _ under the conservative government and most interesting under the figures — and most interesting under the figures is — and most interesting under the figures is manufacturing and construction are areas where there has been _ construction are areas where there has been a — construction are areas where there has been a decline and it's gone in the wrong — has been a decline and it's gone in the wrong direction, 1.5% decline. the reality— the wrong direction, 1.5% decline. the reality is it probably means the bank of— the reality is it probably means the bank of england will not reduce interest— bank of england will not reduce interest rates as quickly as we thought— interest rates as quickly as we thought of a reality for ordinary people — thought of a reality for ordinary peopie as — thought of a reality for ordinary people as there are 1.5 million households who either already or over the — households who either already or over the coming months will face increased — over the coming months will face increased mortgage and interest rates _ increased mortgage and interest rates and — increased mortgage and interest rates and will have a monthly increase _ rates and will have a monthly increase payment or hundred and £40. that's_ increase payment or hundred and £40. that's a _ increase payment or hundred and £40. that's a contradiction because low growth generally means the bank would reduce interest rates, and all of the economists knew that april would be a month where little growth

was expected, but the predictions are still the same. 1.5% growth in 2025, getting on for one point 5% this year and the productions remain as they were. you this year and the productions remain as they were-— as they were. you can hardly say that the growth _ as they were. you can hardly say that the growth rates _ as they were. you can hardly say that the growth rates we - as they were. you can hardly say that the growth rates we have i as they were. you can hardly say l that the growth rates we have had as they were. you can hardly say - that the growth rates we have had in the last— that the growth rates we have had in the last 14 _ that the growth rates we have had in the last 14 years and even present are the _ the last 14 years and even present are the growth rates that we would want _ are the growth rates that we would want. , . , are the growth rates that we would want. , ., , ., , ., , want. they are better than germany and most of — want. they are better than germany and most of the _ want. they are better than germany and most of the g7. _ want. they are better than germany and most of the g7. the _ want. they are better than germany and most of the g7. the joint - and most of the g7. the joint fastest growing in the g7. this is abusin: fastest growing in the g7. this is abusing statistics _ fastest growing in the g7. this is abusing statistics because - fastest growing in the g7. this is abusing statistics because it - abusing statistics because it depends on the way in which you choose — depends on the way in which you choose. ,, . ,., . depends on the way in which you choose-_ it's i depends on the way in which you - choose._ it's the choose. since the pandemic. it's the wa ou choose. since the pandemic. it's the way you choose _ choose. since the pandemic. it's the way you choose to — choose. since the pandemic. it's the way you choose to make _ choose. since the pandemic. it's the way you choose to make the - choose. since the pandemic. it's the way you choose to make the of - way you choose to make the of comparisons with the other economies is an abuse _ comparisons with the other economies is an abuse of statistics. interesting but diverging views there. it is rishi sunak right that there. it is rishi sunak right that the economy is turning a corner? i the economy is turning a corner? i was quite enjoying. it's somewhere in between — was quite enjoying. it's somewhere in between she _ was quite enjoying. it's somewhere in between. she geoffrey— was quite enjoying. it's somewhere in between. she geoffrey is- was quite enjoying. it's somewhere in between. she geoffrey is right. in between. she geoffrey is right that rain— in between. she geoffrey is right that rain was— in between. she geoffrey is right that rain was a _ in between. she geoffrey is right that rain was a big _ in between. she geoffrey is right that rain was a big issue - in between. she geoffrey is right that rain was a big issue in- in between. she geoffrey is right that rain was a big issue in april. i that rain was a big issue in april. it that rain was a big issue in april. it is _ that rain was a big issue in april. it is every— that rain was a big issue in april. it is every aprii~ _

that rain was a big issue in april. it is every april. april— that rain was a big issue in april. it is every april. april showers. i it is every april. april showers. you can't disagree with that. share you can't disagree with that. are -auttin you can't disagree with that. are putting the _ you can't disagree with that. are putting the weather aside. is it turning a corner? let me put this statistic out there because real household disposable income is lower now than it was in 2019 and that will be the first time since around the 1950s that living standards have gone down over the course of a parliament and not art. the short answer is it _ parliament and not art. the short answer is it is _ parliament and not art. the short answer is it is turning _ parliament and not art. the short answer is it is turning the - parliament and not art. the short answer is it is turning the cornerl answer is it is turning the corner and rebounding— answer is it is turning the corner and rebounding from _ answer is it is turning the corner and rebounding from a - answer is it is turning the corner and rebounding from a low- answer is it is turning the corner and rebounding from a low base i answer is it is turning the corner- and rebounding from a low base but it's not— and rebounding from a low base but it's not where — and rebounding from a low base but it's not where you _ and rebounding from a low base but it's not where you needed _ and rebounding from a low base but it's not where you needed to - and rebounding from a low base but it's not where you needed to be - and rebounding from a low base but it's not where you needed to be or. it's not where you needed to be or any party— it's not where you needed to be or any party wants _ it's not where you needed to be or any party wants it _ it's not where you needed to be or any party wants it to _ it's not where you needed to be or any party wants it to be _ it's not where you needed to be or any party wants it to be or- it's not where you needed to be or any party wants it to be or where i any party wants it to be or where the public— any party wants it to be or where the public service _ any party wants it to be or where the public service spending - any party wants it to be or wherei the public service spending plans need _ the public service spending plans need to— the public service spending plans need to be — the public service spending plans need to be for— the public service spending plans need to be for them _ the public service spending plans need to be for them add - the public service spending plans need to be for them add up- the public service spending plans need to be for them add up so. the public service spending plansi need to be for them add up so as the public service spending plans - need to be for them add up so as we look need to be for them add up so as we took at _ need to be for them add up so as we took at the _ need to be for them add up so as we look at the manifestos _ need to be for them add up so as we look at the manifestos we _ need to be for them add up so as we look at the manifestos we have - look at the manifestos we have to look at the manifestos we have to look for _ look at the manifestos we have to look for genuinely— look at the manifestos we have to look for genuinely gross - look at the manifestos we have to| look for genuinely gross improving measures — look for genuinely gross improving measures. what _ look for genuinely gross improving measures. what i _ look for genuinely gross improving measures. what i would _ look for genuinely gross improving measures. what i would say- look for genuinely gross improving measures. what i would say is - look for genuinely gross improving . measures. what i would say is though that the _ measures. what i would say is though that the uk_ measures. what i would say is though that the uk economy _ measures. what i would say is though that the uk economy is _ measures. what i would say is though that the uk economy is still _ that the uk economy is still vulnerable _ that the uk economy is still vulnerable to— that the uk economy is still vulnerable to global- that the uk economy is still| vulnerable to global shocks, shipping _ vulnerable to global shocks, shipping rates _ vulnerable to global shocks, shipping rates are _ vulnerable to global shocks, shipping rates are going - vulnerable to global shocks, shipping rates are going upl vulnerable to global shocks, - shipping rates are going up again we know what— shipping rates are going up again we know what happened _ shipping rates are going up again we know what happened last _ shipping rates are going up again we know what happened last time - shipping rates are going up again we know what happened last time that. know what happened last time that happened — know what happened last time that happened. we _ know what happened last time that happened. we are— know what happened last time that happened. we are properly- happened. we are properly underpricing _ happened. we are properly underpricing the _ happened. we are properly underpricing the possibilityi happened. we are properly. underpricing the possibility of happened. we are properly- underpricing the possibility of a fair wind — underpricing the possibility of a fair wind in _ underpricing the possibility of a fair wind in the _ underpricing the possibility of a fair wind in the economy- underpricing the possibility of a fair wind in the economy in- underpricing the possibility of a fair wind in the economy in the| underpricing the possibility of a -

fair wind in the economy in the next six months — fair wind in the economy in the next six months or— fair wind in the economy in the next six months or so. _ fair wind in the economy in the next six months or so. there _ fair wind in the economy in the next six months or so. there does- fair wind in the economy in the next six months or so. there does seem| fair wind in the economy in the next. six months or so. there does seem to be a move _ six months or so. there does seem to be a move that — six months or so. there does seem to be a move that people _ six months or so. there does seem to be a move that people have _ six months or so. there does seem to be a move that people have finally - be a move that people have finally given _ be a move that people have finally given up— be a move that people have finally given up on— be a move that people have finally given up on the _ be a move that people have finally given up on the excuse _ be a move that people have finally given up on the excuse of- be a move that people have finally given up on the excuse of not- given up on the excuse of not investing _ given up on the excuse of not investing and _ given up on the excuse of not investing and have _ given up on the excuse of not investing and have basically. given up on the excuse of not- investing and have basically been sitting _ investing and have basically been sitting on— investing and have basically been sitting on their— investing and have basically been sitting on their hands _ investing and have basically been sitting on their hands for - investing and have basically been sitting on their hands for about . sitting on their hands for about eight _ sitting on their hands for about eight years— sitting on their hands for about eight years and _ sitting on their hands for about eight years and there - sitting on their hands for about eight years and there comes i sitting on their hands for about eight years and there comes a| sitting on their hands for about - eight years and there comes a point where _ eight years and there comes a point where you _ eight years and there comes a point where you have _ eight years and there comes a point where you have to put _ eight years and there comes a point where you have to put some - eight years and there comes a point where you have to put some moneyi eight years and there comes a point. where you have to put some money in. whether— where you have to put some money in. whether that's — where you have to put some money in. whether that's got _ where you have to put some money in. whether that's got anything _ where you have to put some money in. whether that's got anything to do - whether that's got anything to do with the _ whether that's got anything to do with the politics _ whether that's got anything to do with the politics is _ whether that's got anything to do with the politics is a _ whether that's got anything to do with the politics is a different - whether that's got anything to do with the politics is a different andi with the politics is a different and open _ with the politics is a different and open question _ with the politics is a different and open question-— with the politics is a different and open question. business confidence is the highest _ open question. business confidence is the highest it's _ open question. business confidence is the highest it's been _ open question. business confidence is the highest it's been in _ open question. business confidence is the highest it's been in five - is the highest it's been in five years. consumer confidence is high. politicians disown statistics when they don't suit them and claim them when _ they don't suit them and claim them when they— they don't suit them and claim them when they do, and i'm not blaming you but— when they do, and i'm not blaming you but working people don't feel we have turned a corner and we certainly _ have turned a corner and we certainly don't feel we know where we are _ certainly don't feel we know where we are going into more prosperity. people _ we are going into more prosperity. people are — we are going into more prosperity. people are poorer now than they have been for— people are poorer now than they have been for a _ people are poorer now than they have been for a long time relative to where — been for a long time relative to where we — been for a long time relative to where we were five or six years ago. even _ where we were five or six years ago. even under— where we were five or six years ago. even under a — where we were five or six years ago. even under a tory government. we have had even under a tory government. have had the even under a tory government. - have had the pandemic of course. even under a tory government. we i have had the pandemic of course. but other people have had the pandemic and recover quicker than us. other people have had the pandemic and recover quickerthan us. so other people have had the pandemic and recover quicker than us. so we have _ and recover quicker than us. so we have a _ and recover quicker than us. so we have a clampdown on peoples wages and peoples bills have gone through the roof— and peoples bills have gone through the roof and all of the prices, people — the roof and all of the prices, people say inflation is going down, but the _ people say inflation is going down, but the prices are already baked in

with people paying record amounts for their— with people paying record amounts for their everyday needs including energy. _ for their everyday needs including energy, food, children's shoes, whatever— energy, food, children's shoes, whatever it is. people are poorer than _ whatever it is. people are poorer than they— whatever it is. people are poorer than they used to be and there is no feet-good _ than they used to be and there is no feel—good factor amongst the british people _ feel—good factor amongst the british people at— feel—good factor amongst the british people at the moment. let�*s feel-good factor amongst the british people at the moment.— feel-good factor amongst the british people at the moment. let's get some reaction from — people at the moment. let's get some reaction from the _ people at the moment. let's get some reaction from the conservative - people at the moment. let's get some reaction from the conservative party i reaction from the conservative party manifesto launch yesterday, obviously a big deal, a manifesto launch, and we are covering all of the main parties, the green party today and labour tomorrow and the headline was tax cuts and self employed national employer insurance with the idea to abolish that altogether, but did it and will it change the party's fortunes at the polls? let's talk to henry zeffm has been getting reaction from conservative candidates. did they applaud it? hot conservative candidates. did they alaud it? ., ., , a. applaud it? not really. as a prospectus _ applaud it? not really. as a prospectus for _ applaud it? not really. as a prospectus for another - applaud it? not really. as a | prospectus for another term applaud it? not really. as a i prospectus for another term in government most conservatives i spoke to thought it would be fine, good even but as a political game changer they mostly found it wanting, particularly rishi sunak�*s

decision to focus his proposed tax cuts again on national insurance, proposing a third successive 2p cut in the employee rate of national insurance are one influential conservative i spoke to said the definition of insanity is trying the same thing twice, so that means this is beyond insanity and if you want to have a measure of the mood of where the conservatives are more generally the campaigns are, look at the fact this morning less than 24 hours after rishi sunak unveiled the programme for government you had grant shapps, one of his most trusted lieutenants out there arguing about the risk of a labour supermajority. the conservatives are in the position of trying to use the possibility of a large labour majority to try to ensure that a large labour majority doesn't happen. that is not a sign of confidence in their campaign. thank ou ve confidence in their campaign. thank you very much- _ confidence in their campaign. thank you very much. how— confidence in their campaign. thank you very much. how big _ confidence in their campaign. thank you very much. how big is - confidence in their campaign. thank you very much. how big is the - confidence in their campaign. thank you very much. how big is the danger of a labour supermajority? if you of a labour superma'ority? if you believe the h of a labour superma'ority? if you believe the polls — of a labour superma'ority? if you believe the polls at _ of a labour supermajority? if you believe the polls at the _ of a labour supermajority? if you believe the polls at the moment | of a labour supermajority? if you i believe the polls at the moment we are sleepwalking into a one—party

socialist state. if are sleepwalking into a one-party socialist state.— are sleepwalking into a one-party socialist state.- it - are sleepwalking into a one-party socialist state.- it will - are sleepwalking into a one-party socialist state.- it will be l socialist state. if only! it will be mick's dream, _ socialist state. if only! it will be mick's dream, his _ socialist state. if only! it will be mick's dream, his utopia, - socialist state. if only! it will be mick's dream, his utopia, but i socialist state. if only! it will be - mick's dream, his utopia, but maybe not margaret's. the consequences would be horrific notjust for the conservative party, the country but also for labour and i think margaret is mature it's tough to know an opposition is important. i don't actually believe these things because i don't believe the british people opt for a one—party socialist state. people opt for a one-party socialist state. ~ . , people opt for a one-party socialist state. ~ ., , i. people opt for a one-party socialist state. ~ ., , ., �* , state. what is it you don't believe? you believe — state. what is it you don't believe? you believe that _ state. what is it you don't believe? you believe that labour— state. what is it you don't believe? you believe that labour will- state. what is it you don't believe? you believe that labour will win - state. what is it you don't believe? | you believe that labour will win the election. fin you believe that labour will win the election. ,., , ., , you believe that labour will win the election. , .,, , ., election. on the polls as they are if they are _ election. on the polls as they are if they are correct, _ election. on the polls as they are if they are correct, we _ election. on the polls as they are if they are correct, we would - election. on the polls as they are if they are correct, we would be l if they are correct, we would be looking at what grant is predicting. i don't find that in devon where i am and i don't find that people are inclined to opt for a one—party socialist state, mick's utopian dream. but no doubt if people go to the polls and do not realise that a majority of that kind could be deeply unhealthy for democracy, it could happen on the polls today. i don't think it will. just

could happen on the polls today. i don't think it will.— don't think it will. just to be clear to our _ don't think it will. just to be clear to our viewers, - don't think it will. just to be clear to our viewers, that i don't think it will. just to be clear to our viewers, that is | don't think it will. just to be | clear to our viewers, that is a tacit admission of defeat. trio. clear to our viewers, that is a tacit admission of defeat. no, it's an admission _ tacit admission of defeat. no, it's an admission of _ tacit admission of defeat. no, it's an admission of where _ tacit admission of defeat. no, it's an admission of where we - tacit admission of defeat. no, it's an admission of where we are - tacit admission of defeat. no, it's an admission of where we are at i tacit admission of defeat. no, it's i an admission of where we are at the moment in the polls.— moment in the polls. stemming the blood as you — moment in the polls. stemming the blood as you might _ moment in the polls. stemming the blood as you might say. _ moment in the polls. stemming the blood as you might say. that - moment in the polls. stemming the blood as you might say. that is - moment in the polls. stemming the blood as you might say. that is a i blood as you might say. that is a mischaracterisation. _ blood as you might say. that is a mischaracterisation. what - blood as you might say. that is a mischaracterisation. what i - blood as you might say. that is a mischaracterisation. what i am i mischaracterisation. what i am saying is, on the polls at the moment, if you believe them, then you would be looking at a one—party socialist state. no doubt about it. you are putting all these provisos in, you are putting all these provisos in but _ you are putting all these provisos in but do — you are putting all these provisos in, but do you agree with grant shapps? — in, but do you agree with grant shapps? your colleague? | in, but do you agree with grant shapps? your colleague? i agree with him that a one-party _ shapps? your colleague? i agree with him that a one-party socialist - shapps? your colleague? i agree with him that a one-party socialist state i him that a one—party socialist state or massive labour majority would be deeply unhealthy. i or massive labour ma'ority would be deeply unhealthy.— deeply unhealthy. i think we've got our line. deeply unhealthy. i think we've got your line- are _ deeply unhealthy. i think we've got your line. are you _ deeply unhealthy. i think we've got your line. are you worried - deeply unhealthy. i think we've got your line. are you worried about i deeply unhealthy. i think we've goti your line. are you worried about all of this talk of not giving labour a blank cheque, that it is on the presumption that not only will you win, but you will win big. how big is the risk to labour about turnout and voters who have fallen out of love with the conservatives but

haven't quite decided if they will give their vote to you? me haven't quite decided if they will give their vote to you?— haven't quite decided if they will give their vote to you? i've been in lolitics give their vote to you? i've been in politics such _ give their vote to you? i've been in politics such a _ give their vote to you? i've been in politics such a long _ give their vote to you? i've been in politics such a long time _ give their vote to you? i've been in politics such a long time and i i politics such a long time and i remember all the times we lost from 79. 83. _ remember all the times we lost from 79. 83. 87. _ remember all the times we lost from 79, 83, 87, 92, so i'm extremely cautious — 79, 83, 87, 92, so i'm extremely cautious we _ 79, 83, 87, 92, so i'm extremely cautious. we have a mountain to climb _ cautious. we have a mountain to climb and — cautious. we have a mountain to climb and i— cautious. we have a mountain to climb and i want to work really hard and have _ climb and i want to work really hard and have been working really hard and have been working really hard and i_ and have been working really hard and i think— and have been working really hard and i think both mick and i would agree _ and i think both mick and i would agree that — and i think both mick and i would agree that we want an end to the chaos— agree that we want an end to the chaos and — agree that we want an end to the chaos and the disaster that has been the last— chaos and the disaster that has been the last 14 _ chaos and the disaster that has been the last 14 years but let me say one other— the last 14 years but let me say one other thing — the last 14 years but let me say one other thing which really got my goat~ _ other thing which really got my goat. that first blair government was an— goat. that first blair government was an incredibly successful garden. i was an incredibly successful garden. i was _ was an incredibly successful garden. i was part— was an incredibly successful garden. i was part of— was an incredibly successful garden. i was part of it and we brought in the minimum wage and gave devolution to scotland. _ the minimum wage and gave devolution to scotland, we brought in freedom of information and did a whole load. we invested in the health service. that is— we invested in the health service. that is the — we invested in the health service. that is the point, tony blair had a plan but labour does not have any plan but labour does not have any plan at all. it is a vacuum. we will see the day, but at the moment it's nothing.

see the day, but at the moment it's nothinl. , ., , ., .,, . nothing. there is a plan. i ob'ect to that. no fl nothing. there is a plan. i ob'ect to that. do you i nothing. there is a plan. i ob'ect to that. do you thinki nothing. there is a plan. i ob'ect to that. do you think there i nothing. there is a plan. i object to that. do you think there will i nothing. there is a plan. i object. to that. do you think there will be a labour supermajority? - to that. do you think there will be a labour supermajority? do i to that. do you think there will be a labour supermajority? do you i to that. do you think there will be i a labour supermajority? do you think it will be a landslide moment like 1997 don't know i've had many on election night where i've been shocked byjohn major's victory in 1992, so i hope there is a labour majority and i hope it picks up the baton and gets braver than what we've seen already. it is baton and gets braver than what we've seen already.— we've seen already. it is a bit bland and _ we've seen already. it is a bit bland and it _ we've seen already. it is a bit bland and it isn't _ we've seen already. it is a bit bland and it isn't promising i we've seen already. it is a bit i bland and it isn't promising enough and i_ bland and it isn't promising enough and i hope — bland and it isn't promising enough and i hope it— bland and it isn't promising enough and i hope it uses— bland and it isn't promising enough and i hope it uses its— bland and it isn't promising enough and i hope it uses its majority- bland and it isn't promising enough and i hope it uses its majority to i and i hope it uses its majority to good _ and i hope it uses its majority to good effect _ and i hope it uses its majority to good effect to _ and i hope it uses its majority to good effect to change _ and i hope it uses its majority to good effect to change the - and i hope it uses its majority toi good effect to change the country for the _ good effect to change the country for the better— good effect to change the country for the better which _ good effect to change the country for the better which people - good effect to change the country for the better which people are i for the better which people are expecting _ for the better which people are expecting inlie— for the better which people are ex-lectin. ~ for the better which people are expecting-_ for the better which people are ex-lectin. . ., ., expecting. we will come onto the labour manifesto _ expecting. we will come onto the labour manifesto throwing - expecting. we will come onto the labour manifesto throwing ahead| expecting. we will come onto the i labour manifesto throwing ahead to tomorrow in the moment but let's stick to what we have got which is the conservative manifesto. was it a game changer? i the conservative manifesto. was it a game changer?— game changer? i don't give was if ou “udle game changer? i don't give was if you judge by _ game changer? i don't give was if you judge by the _ game changer? i don't give was if you judge by the fact _ game changer? i don't give was if you judge by the fact that - game changer? i don't give was if you judge by the fact that most i game changer? i don't give was ifi you judge by the fact that most of the papers didn't put it on the front for one reason or another. there are some decent ideas in there. national insurance abolition is a sensible move to a single income tax. is a sensible move to a single income tall-—

is a sensible move to a single income tax. ., ., ~ ., , ., . ,, income tax. not a 46 million black hole. i income tax. not a 46 million black hole- lthink— income tax. not a 46 million black hole. i think for _ income tax. not a 46 million black hole. i think for better _ income tax. not a 46 million black hole. i think for better or- income tax. not a 46 million black hole. i think for better or worse i income tax. not a 46 million blacki hole. i think for better or worse -- 46 billion- — hole. i think for better or worse -- 46 billion. for— hole. i think for better or worse -- 46 billion. for better _ hole. i think for better or worse -- 46 billion. for better or— hole. i think for better or worse -- 46 billion. for better or worse, i hole. i think for better or worse -- 46 billion. for better or worse, it i 46 billion. for better or worse, it read like a lot of things that people will just about read like a lot of things that people willjust about like and not necessarily believe it will be delivered. and this is true in the city as well. there is a bit of a lack of faith right now in the conservative campaign and looking ahead to the future we've just had so many years of chaos, give us something and prove to us, tell us, show us there is competence now. show us it has been left behind and thatis show us it has been left behind and that is the challenge in the next four weeks, that is the challenge in the next fourweeks, because that is the challenge in the next four weeks, because if you look at the focus groups and people in the city looks like it says the tories are out of ideas but it does mean that labour cannot have bad ones between here and now. let’s that labour cannot have bad ones between here and now. let's look at how blind is — between here and now. let's look at how blind is because _ between here and now. let's look at how blind is because some - between here and now. let's look at how blind is because some of- between here and now. let's look at how blind is because some of the i how blind is because some of the substance and tax cuts, the daily telegraph sees sunak promising 17 billion in tax cuts, and if you roll to the guardian, they say tories implausible £17 billion tax giveaway

and that is because geoffrey, those savings that will be made, so say the tories, to pay for these tax cuts are, well there is scepticism about it. how deliverable our £18 billion of efficiency savings and clamping down on tax avoidance, and 12 billion in that for welfare savings? in 12 billion in that for welfare savinls? ii' ' 12 billion in that for welfare savinls? ii" ., savings? in 2019 there were about 20,000 applications _ savings? in 2019 there were about 20,000 applications per— savings? in 2019 there were about 20,000 applications per month i savings? in 2019 there were about| 20,000 applications per month for health related benefits for people off work with sickness. in 2023, there are now over 50,000 a month. in four there are now over 50,000 a month. infouryears... 50 there are now over 50,000 a month. in four years- - -_ in four years... so you've made everyone _ in four years... so you've made everyone sicker. _ in four years... so you've made everyone sicker. the _ in four years... so you've made everyone sicker. the pandemic| in four years... so you've made i everyone sicker. the pandemic has lainl everyone sicker. the pandemic has llainl had everyone sicker. the pandemic has plainly had an _ everyone sicker. the pandemic has plainly had an effect. _ everyone sicker. the pandemic has plainly had an effect. it _ everyone sicker. the pandemic has plainly had an effect. it is - plainly had an effect. it is astonishing that rachel reeves said yesterday. astonishing that rachel reeves said esterda . �* . astonishing that rachel reeves said esterda . v ., .. astonishing that rachel reeves said esterda . �*, ., ,, ., yesterday. let's talk about the plausibility _ yesterday. let's talk about the plausibility of _ yesterday. let's talk about the plausibility of the _ yesterday. let's talk about the plausibility of the savings i yesterday. let's talk about the plausibility of the savings you | yesterday. let's talk about the i plausibility of the savings you say you can make because it is a lot of savings. you can make because it is a lot of savinls. ., �* ., ., ., ,, savings. you've asked me to make the case, let savings. you've asked me to make the case. let me — savings. you've asked me to make the case, let me make _ savings. you've asked me to make the case, let me make it. _ savings. you've asked me to make the case, let me make it. rachel- savings. you've asked me to make the case, let me make it. rachel reeves l case, let me make it. rachel reeves said yesterday there wasn't a penny in savings to be found from welfare. that was a statement. we don't take

that view. we think if we can go back to pre—pandemic levels, getting people into work, driving forward, as was done some years ago where we got thousands, millions of people back into work with iain duncan smith's reforms, we think we can make those savings over a parliament. there is no reason we shouldn't do that. 6 billion on tax avoidance, we are currently sitting 6.7 a year. i 6 billion on tax avoidance, we are currently sitting 6.7 a year. i have looked at the _ currently sitting 6.7 a year. i have looked at the figures, _ currently sitting 6.7 a year. i have looked at the figures, and - currently sitting 6.7 a year. i have looked at the figures, and i - currently sitting 6.7 a year. i have looked at the figures, and i think| looked at the figures, and i think you have — looked at the figures, and i think you have got the brief... let me answer~ — you have got the brief... let me answer~ if— you have got the brief... let me answer. if we take the welfare savings — answer. if we take the welfare savings as a start, there are seven propositions — savings as a start, there are seven propositions in your manifesto of how you're — propositions in your manifesto of how you're going to see the money, four of— how you're going to see the money, four of those have already been factored — four of those have already been factored in any budget we have now.

if factored in any budget we have now. if you _ factored in any budget we have now. if you go _ factored in any budget we have now. if you go tax — factored in any budget we have now. if you go tax avoidance, which i know _ if you go tax avoidance, which i know a — if you go tax avoidance, which i know a lot _ if you go tax avoidance, which i know a lot about, you have put 6 billion _ know a lot about, you have put 6 billion but— know a lot about, you have put 6 billion, but you haven't. we have said you — billion, but you haven't. we have said you have to invest in stock nomination... hang on a minute. you're _ nomination... hang on a minute. you're adding a further 6 billion. if you're adding a further 6 billion. if you're — you're adding a further 6 billion. if you're going to do that, you have to invest _ if you're going to do that, you have to invest up — if you're going to do that, you have to invest up to nearly a billion in staff, _ to invest up to nearly a billion in staff, you — to invest up to nearly a billion in staff, you haven't got that, and one more _ staff, you haven't got that, and one more thing. — staff, you haven't got that, and one more thing, rachel reeves made a calculation, i have no doubtjeffrey will challenge that, but compare that to _ will challenge that, but compare that to liz truss, when liz trusted her bonkers— that to liz truss, when liz trusted her bonkers budget and those public expenditure, there was a £42 billion -ap, expenditure, there was a £42 billion gap. and _ expenditure, there was a £42 billion gap, and here we have rishi sunak and jeremy— gap, and here we have rishi sunak andjeremy hunt, gap, and here we have rishi sunak and jeremy hunt, both of whom called that budget completely chaotic, now coming _ that budget completely chaotic, now coming forward with a much more irresponsible... —— geoffrey. it is a £71_ irresponsible... —— geoffrey. it is a e71 billion— irresponsible... —— geoffrey. it is a £71 billion gap. irresponsible... -- geoffrey. it is a £71 billion gap.— a £71 billion gap. those figures sound a little _

a £71 billion gap. those figures sound a little bit _ a £71 billion gap. those figures sound a little bit like _ a £71 billion gap. those figures sound a little bit like the i a £71 billion gap. those figuresl sound a little bit like the £2000 rishi sunak said every household would pay under labour over four years. one thing i wanted to mention to you by your talking about unfunded and cost what was the thinking behind sir keir starmer comparing the tory manifesto, uncosted he said, tojeremy corbyn's manifesto, in which he stood, in which you stood, and in fact the shadow cabinet, what point was he trying to make there? it is shadow cabinet, what point was he trying to make there?— trying to make there? it is like confetti, trying to make there? it is like confetti. l— trying to make there? it is like confetti, i felt _ trying to make there? it is like confetti, i felt it _ trying to make there? it is like confetti, i felt it was _ trying to make there? it is like confetti, i felt it was like i confetti, i felt it was like confetti _ confetti, i felt it was like confetti of promises... likely jeremy corbyn _ confetti of promises... likely jeremy corbyn one _ confetti of promises... likely jeremy corbyn one that i confetti of promises... likely jeremy corbyn one that you i confetti of promises... likely i jeremy corbyn one that you stood confetti of promises... likely - jeremy corbyn one that you stood on? like thejeremy corbyn when i sort like the jeremy corbyn when i sort of stood _ like the jeremy corbyn when i sort of stood on — like the jeremy corbyn when i sort of stood on— like the jeremy corbyn when i sort of stood on. , . ., ._ , ., , of stood on. these tax giveaways, as the are of stood on. these tax giveaways, as they are called. _ of stood on. these tax giveaways, as they are called, they _ of stood on. these tax giveaways, as they are called, they are _ of stood on. these tax giveaways, as they are called, they are totally i they are called, they are totally biased, completely divides people who are self—employed from people on paye it has to pay its national

insurance through its wages. most self employment in this country is bogus anyway. if we change the rules about self—employment and got people back on the cards, as we used to say, paying their paye in their national insurance at the proper rate, we would make lots of savings. i think that is a strange idea. you no into i think that is a strange idea. go into construction, all sorts of service industries, that is bogus 7.4 people never have to tender for their own work, so you are not bogus. people in many industries can only get work self—employed, and they should be employees paying the appropriate tax. fix, they should be employees paying the appmpriate tam— appropriate tax. a philosophical oint appropriate tax. a philosophical point about _ appropriate tax. a philosophical point about tax _ appropriate tax. a philosophical point about tax cuts, _ appropriate tax. a philosophical point about tax cuts, tax - appropriate tax. a philosophical point about tax cuts, tax cuts i appropriate tax. a philosophical. point about tax cuts, tax cuts don't cost anything, it means the government has less monitor spend on other stuff— government has less monitor spend on other stuff -- _ government has less monitor spend on other stuff —— less money to spend. the difference without a

distinction. but i think it is an important _ distinction. but i think it is an important philosophical one, they will continue to have rows... it is naive _ will continue to have rows... it is naive to— will continue to have rows... it is naive to hope that happens in an election. — naive to hope that happens in an election, of course, but these numbers— election, of course, but these numbers don't add up without massive public— numbers don't add up without massive public sector reform, efficiencies across _ public sector reform, efficiencies across the — public sector reform, efficiencies across the piece, a different discussion about how we fund and operate _ discussion about how we fund and operate the nhs, and instead we have a row— operate the nhs, and instead we have a row about— operate the nhs, and instead we have a row about 2000 and 3000, 71 billion, — a row about 2000 and 3000, 71 billion, they're not getting anywhere. billion, they're not getting anywhere-— billion, they're not getting an here. , anywhere. both politicians were noddin: anywhere. both politicians were nodding away — anywhere. both politicians were nodding away there, _ anywhere. both politicians were nodding away there, so - anywhere. both politicians were nodding away there, so maybe. anywhere. both politicians were . nodding away there, so maybe that anywhere. both politicians were - nodding away there, so maybe that is the honesty that certainly independent think tanks like the institute for fiscal studies... start with what services you are going to run, then work out how you're going to pay for them, which nobody does, if you civilly want a national care system, we want to get rid of queues on the nhs, we want a

defence budget that stands up, whatever, we want to solve housing, you make that promise, which no party is doing, then you work out how you're going to for it and people will be taxed appropriately on the back of it. has people will be taxed appropriately on the back of it. $51 people will be taxed appropriately on the back of it.— on the back of it. as i say, we started this _ on the back of it. as i say, we started this conversation - on the back of it. as i say, we | started this conversation about the consultant is�* manifesto launch. this evening on itv, the interview that the prime minister rishi sunak did when he left those d—day commemorations early last week, it will be broadcast. we can listen to a little bit of it.— a little bit of it. good to see you. it all 'ust a little bit of it. good to see you. it alliust ran _ a little bit of it. good to see you. it alljust ran over, _ a little bit of it. good to see you. it alljust ran over, it _ a little bit of it. good to see you. it alljust ran over, it wasn't - it alljust ran over, it wasn't credible, but itjust ran over. apologies for keeping you. his. credible, but itjust ran over. apologies for keeping you. no, not at all, i'm sure _ apologies for keeping you. no, not at all, i'm sure it _ apologies for keeping you. no, not at all, i'm sure it was _ apologies for keeping you. no, not at all, i'm sure it was a _ apologies for keeping you. no, not at all, i'm sure it was a powerful. at all, i'm sure it was a powerful trio _ at all, i'm sure it was a powerful trio did — at all, i'm sure it was a powerful trip. did you _ at all, i'm sure it was a powerful trip. did you get to meet any of the veterans? _ trip. did you get to meet any of the veterans? , , ._ ., trip. did you get to meet any of the veterans? , , ., ., veterans? over yesterday and today, i soke to veterans? over yesterday and today, i spoke to almost _ veterans? over yesterday and today, i spoke to almost everyone - veterans? over yesterday and today, i spoke to almost everyone that - veterans? over yesterday and today, i spoke to almost everyone that was| i spoke to almost everyone that was there, i think. i spoke to almost everyone that was there. i think-— there, ithink. geoffrey, watching that, how do _ there, ithink. geoffrey, watching that, how do you _ there, ithink. geoffrey, watching that, how do you feel? _

there, ithink. geoffrey, watching that, how do you feel? he - there, ithink. geoffrey, watching that, how do you feel? he was i that, how do you feel? he was apologising — that, how do you feel? he was apologising for— that, how do you feel? he was apologising for being - that, how do you feel? he was apologising for being late. - that, how do you feel? he was apologising for being late. he| apologising for being late. he has accepted that to leave early when the president of the united states was there was a mistake, he has apologised for it. irate was there was a mistake, he has apologised for it.— apologised for it. we are still talkin: apologised for it. we are still talking about _ apologised for it. we are still talking about it _ apologised for it. we are still talking about it seven - apologised for it. we are still talking about it seven days i apologised for it. we are still. talking about it seven days on. apologised for it. we are still- talking about it seven days on. you are, i am talking about it seven days on. you are. i am not _ talking about it seven days on. ti’fi�*l, are, i am not finding talking about it seven days on. ti’fi�*l, are, lam not finding it much talking about it seven days on. ti’fi�*l, are, i am not finding it much when i go knocking on doors. i are, i am not finding it much when i go knocking on doors.— are, i am not finding it much when i go knocking on doors.- you | go knocking on doors. i am... you are not standing, _ go knocking on doors. i am... you are not standing, i— go knocking on doors. i am... you are not standing, i don't _ go knocking on doors. i am... you are not standing, i don't know - go knocking on doors. i am... you i are not standing, i don't know where you are... let me tell you, they are not reason that, what they are raising is, we would have a continuation of a properly fiscally responsible government that has brought down inflation, that is increasing... brought down inflation, that is increasing. . ._ brought down inflation, that is increasing... geoffrey, can i 'ust sa on increasing... geoffrey, can i 'ust say on rishi fl increasing... geoffrey, can i 'ust say on rishi sunak, i increasing... geoffrey, can i 'ust say on rishi sunak, they i increasing... geoffrey, can i 'ust say on rishi sunak, they areh say on rishi sunak, they are bringing _ say on rishi sunak, they are bringing it up on the doorstep, and what _ bringing it up on the doorstep, and what is _ bringing it up on the doorstep, and what is particularly galling about this is— what is particularly galling about this is the first commitment he comes— this is the first commitment he comes out— this is the first commitment he comes out with is that young people are going _ comes out with is that young people are going to do national service, it is all— are going to do national service, it is all through the army, etc,

then _ is all through the army, etc, then... please don't interrupt. then he goes _ then... please don't interrupt. then he goes over— then... please don't interrupt. then he goes over to the commemoration events, _ he goes over to the commemoration events, leaves early, then he comes backi _ events, leaves early, then he comes back, what— events, leaves early, then he comes back, what does he do? he apologises for being _ back, what does he do? he apologises for being late, another insult to the veterans as well, because he would _ the veterans as well, because he would rather be with itv than with the veterans. it would rather be with itv than with the veterans.— the veterans. it is 'ust a basic courtesy. h the veterans. it is 'ust a basic courtesy. oh the veterans. it is 'ust a basic courtesy, if you _ the veterans. it isjust a basic courtesy, if you are _ the veterans. it isjust a basic courtesy, if you are late - the veterans. it isjust a basic courtesy, if you are late to i courtesy, if you are late to apologise for being late, don't you? well, i would have said... itrail“) apologise for being late, don't you? well, i would have said...— well, i would have said... who said he had been _ well, i would have said... who said he had been at _ well, i would have said... who said he had been at an _ well, i would have said... who said he had been at an incredible - well, i would have said... who said he had been at an incredible event, where he met dozens of veterans, when he turned up late and said i'm sorry, that isjust when he turned up late and said i'm sorry, that is just good manners. no, the good manners would have been to stay— no, the good manners would have been to stay with _ no, the good manners would have been to stay with the veterans. he no, the good manners would have been to stay with the veterans.— to stay with the veterans. he has made that _ to stay with the veterans. he has made that clear, _ to stay with the veterans. he has made that clear, and _ to stay with the veterans. he has made that clear, and with - to stay with the veterans. he has made that clear, and with good l made that clear, and with good manners we will move on to talk about the labour party manifesto tomorrow. mick lynch, what are your hopes and fears? i tomorrow. mick lynch, what are your hopes and fears?— hopes and fears? i fear they are not would have — hopes and fears? i fear they are not would have enough _ hopes and fears? i fear they are not would have enough money- hopes and fears? i fear they are not would have enough money because | hopes and fears? i fear they are not - would have enough money because they have stuck themselves with tory fiscal policy, so i think they have

to be brave on tax and on public expenditure. we want the undiluted new deal for workers, we expenditure. we want the undiluted new dealfor workers, we haven't seen that yet. i5 new deal for workers, we haven't seen that yet-— seen that yet. is this the die was it won? i have _ seen that yet. is this the die was it won? i have not _ seen that yet. is this the die was it won? i have not seen - seen that yet. is this the die was it won? i have not seen anythingj it won? i have not seen anything because we _ it won? i have not seen anything because we are _ it won? i have not seen anything because we are not _ it won? i have not seen anything because we are not affiliated. i it won? i have not seen anythingj because we are not affiliated. so why should you make those demands? the world of work has changed a lot over the last few years, people are not getting a square deal. disputes in the last few years were about people having terms and conditions taken away. that trend with a lot of people, and why there have been a lot of disputes as a result of that, and we want to make sure that people get a square deal at work. they should expect decent holidays, pension, sick pay, terms and conditions. we should be allowed to negotiate them. so we want the repeal of the anti—union laws and who want to be unshackled to get on with ourjob. who want to be unshackled to get on with ourjob— with our 'ob. your feet will be held to the with ourjob. your feet will be held to the fire, — with ourjob. your feet will be held to the fire, admitted _ with ourjob. your feet will be held to the fire, admitted lily _ with ourjob. your feet will be held to the fire, admitted lily rmt- with ourjob. your feet will be held to the fire, admitted lily rmt are l to the fire, admitted lily rmt are not deflated, but the unite union refused to endorse deliver manifesto, saying it is not go far

enough —— admittedly the rmt are not affiliated. i enough -- admittedly the rmt are not affiliated. . ~ enough -- admittedly the rmt are not affiliated. ., ~ ,., affiliated. i am in retiring mp, so i have not— affiliated. i am in retiring mp, so i have not seen _ affiliated. i am in retiring mp, so i have not seen it, _ affiliated. i am in retiring mp, so i have not seen it, but _ affiliated. i am in retiring mp, so i have not seen it, but mick i affiliated. i am in retiring mp, so i have not seen it, but mick is i i have not seen it, but mick is quite — i have not seen it, but mick is quite right— i have not seen it, but mick is quite right to keep arguing his case, — quite right to keep arguing his case, that is hisjob, it does not mean _ case, that is hisjob, it does not mean we — case, that is hisjob, it does not mean we agree all the time, he will always— mean we agree all the time, he will always want more, but i am absolutely convinced on the workers' rights _ absolutely convinced on the workers' rights issue — absolutely convinced on the workers' rights issue that it will be the most — rights issue that it will be the most radical reformation of workers' rights _ most radical reformation of workers' rights we _ most radical reformation of workers' rights we have seen... there has been _ rights we have seen... there has been quite — rights we have seen... there has been quite a _ rights we have seen... there has been quite a lot out there... it has been quite a lot out there... it has been diverted. _ been quite a lot out there... it has been diverted. we _ been quite a lot out there... it has been diverted. we don't _ been quite a lot out there... it has been diverted. we don't know i been quite a lot out there... it has been diverted. we don't know the | been diverted. we don't know the extent to which _ been diverted. we don't know the extent to which it _ been diverted. we don't know the extent to which it has _ been diverted. we don't know the extent to which it has been i been diverted. we don't know the i extent to which it has been donated, i will expect a responsible labour government, whether it is business or whatever, and come out of something which is affordable, durable, — something which is affordable, durable, and does increase workers' rates~ _ durable, and does increase workers' rates. it— durable, and does increase workers' rates. , ,., durable, and does increase workers' rates. , ., .

rates. it gives some balance in negotiating — rates. it gives some balance in negotiating power, _ rates. it gives some balance in negotiating power, and i rates. it gives some balance in negotiating power, and we i rates. it gives some balance in negotiating power, and we cani rates. it gives some balance in i negotiating power, and we can do that with the... everything is stacked against the trade union and a ghost working people come at the moment we are hobbled. let’s a ghost working people come at the moment we are hobbled.— moment we are hobbled. let's see when they are _ moment we are hobbled. let's see when they are doing _ moment we are hobbled. let's see when they are doing the _ moment we are hobbled. let's see when they are doing the reforms, l when they are doing the reforms, we don't _ when they are doing the reforms, we don't have _ when they are doing the reforms, we don't have that is going to go, and that is— don't have that is going to go, and that is important stuff about zero—hours contracts which i hope you are _ zero—hours contracts which i hope you are welcome, important stuff about _ you are welcome, important stuff about actually flexible working which — about actually flexible working which i — about actually flexible working which i think is very important for women _ which i think is very important for women in — which i think is very important for women in the workforce. there is important — women in the workforce. there is important stuff about... women in the workforce. there is important stuff about. . ._ women in the workforce. there is important stuff about... what about the strikes? — important stuff about... what about the strikes? you _ important stuff about... what about the strikes? you are _ important stuff about... what about the strikes? you are still— important stuff about... what about the strikes? you are still in - the strikes? you are still in dispute, are you going to call off strikes if labour wins the election? we are hoping to meet ministers. we have strikes on the royal fleet auxiliary, serving all over the world, we have railway strikes. we want to get on with ministers who want to get on with ministers who want to get on with ministers who want to do a deal, who are ready to negotiate on the issues. ibtnd want to do a deal, who are ready to negotiate on the issues.— want to do a deal, who are ready to negotiate on the issues. and are you ttoin to negotiate on the issues. and are you going to meet _ negotiate on the issues. and are you going to meet the — negotiate on the issues. and are you going to meet the demands? - negotiate on the issues. and are you going to meet the demands? i i going to meet the demands? i know not you, but are labour going to meet the demands? irate not you, but are labour going to meet the demands?— not you, but are labour going to meet the demands? we are going to meet the demands? we are going to meet and talk. _ meet the demands? we are going to meet and talk, because _ meet the demands? we are going to meet and talk, because we - meet the demands? we are going to meet and talk, because we have i meet the demands? we are going to meet and talk, because we have had i meet and talk, because we have had more _ meet and talk, because we have had more strikes in the last couple of

years that we have had since the 1980s. _ years that we have had since the 19805, that years that we have had since the 1980s, that is not a way to get growth — 1980s, that is not a way to get growth or— 1980s, that is not a way to get growth or to run the economy or deal with the _ growth or to run the economy or deal with the cost— growth or to run the economy or deal with the cost of living, so we have to get _ with the cost of living, so we have to get round the table and negotiate. it does not mean we will concede, _ negotiate. it does not mean we will concede, but it means we are prepared _ concede, but it means we are prepared to negotiate, which i am of 50 conservative ministers have not been _ 50 conservative ministers have not been prepared to do. that 50 conservative ministers have not been prepared to do.— 50 conservative ministers have not been prepared to do. that will be a result, been prepared to do. that will be a result. won't _ been prepared to do. that will be a result, won't it? _ been prepared to do. that will be a result, won't it? what _ been prepared to do. that will be a result, won't it? what we - been prepared to do. that will be a result, won't it? what we are i been prepared to do. that will be a l result, won't it? what we are seeing is a taste of — result, won't it? what we are seeing is a taste of the _ result, won't it? what we are seeing is a taste of the future _ result, won't it? what we are seeing is a taste of the future if _ result, won't it? what we are seeing is a taste of the future if there i result, won't it? what we are seeing is a taste of the future if there is i is a taste of the future if there is a labour government. beer and sandwiches in number ten, the union is calling the shots, what is astonishing here as i have got two distinguished representatives of the labour movement in one form or another, neither of whom knows a thing really about... that is only two reasons you don't tell people in detail about what you're going to do. the first is you don't have a clue what you're going to do, and the second as you know what you're going to do and you know people will not like it. and that is the only reason we are having this submarine operation campaign, which is not

telling mick lynch or not even talent margaret hodge what they are going to do. i talent margaret hodge what they are ttoin to do. ., talent margaret hodge what they are ttointodo. ., , , going to do. i am absolutely sure that tomorrow's _ going to do. i am absolutely sure that tomorrow's manifesto i going to do. i am absolutely sure that tomorrow's manifesto will i going to do. i am absolutely sure i that tomorrow's manifesto will have clear commitments in it that will be costedi _ clear commitments in it that will be costed, that will be funded, and the great _ costed, that will be funded, and the great drive — costed, that will be funded, and the great drive that we will have to do because _ great drive that we will have to do because you have failed to do it as that drive — because you have failed to do it as that drive for growth... we because you have failed to do it as that drive for growth. . ._ because you have failed to do it as that drive for growth... we will get tublic that drive for growth... we will get public ownership _ that drive for growth... we will get public ownership of _ that drive for growth... we will get public ownership of the _ public ownership of the railways back rather than what we have had for the last 30 years. i(eir back rather than what we have had for the last 30 years.— for the last 30 years. keir starmer did stand on _ for the last 30 years. keir starmer did stand on a _ for the last 30 years. keir starmer did stand on a platform _ for the last 30 years. keir starmer did stand on a platform of- for the last 30 years. keir starmer did stand on a platform of public. did stand on a platform of public ownership of rail, mail and water, and that is not happening. disappointed, they should be more on the side of public ownership. he could not even keep his promises to be labour— could not even keep his promises to be labour membership, _ could not even keep his promises to be labour membership, so- could not even keep his promises to be labour membership, so why- could not even keep his promises to be labour membership, so why arel be labour membership, so why are novelty— be labour membership, so why are novelty keepers _ be labour membership, so why are novelty keepers promises - be labour membership, so why are novelty keepers promises to - be labour membership, so why are novelty keepers promises to be i novelty keepers promises to be british— novelty keepers promises to be british people? _ novelty keepers promises to be british people? he _ novelty keepers promises to be british people? he made - novelty keepers promises to be british people? he made a i novelty keepers promises to be i british people? he made a series of promises _ british people? he made a series of promises with — british people? he made a series of promises with the _ british people? he made a series of promises with the leadership, - british people? he made a series of promises with the leadership, as i promises with the leadership, as keir starmer— promises with the leadership, as keir starmer has— promises with the leadership, as keir starmer has done _ promises with the leadership, asi keir starmer has done throughout promises with the leadership, as i keir starmer has done throughout his careerm _ keir starmer has done throughout his career... ., ., ., ., ., ., career... you have made a lot of promises. _ career... you have made a lot of promises, geoffrey. _

career... you have made a lot of promises, geoffrey. not - career... you have made a lot of. promises, geoffrey. not promisesi have personally _ promises, geoffrey. not promisesi have personally made, _ promises, geoffrey. not promisesi have personally made, we - promises, geoffrey. not promisesi have personally made, we are i promises, geoffrey. not promises i l have personally made, we are talking about _ have personally made, we are talking about your _ have personally made, we are talking about your leader. _ have personally made, we are talking about your leader. these _ have personally made, we are talking about your leader. these are - about your leader. these are personal— about your leader. these are personal promises. - about your leader. these are personal promises. can i about your leader. these are personal promises.— about your leader. these are personal promises. can i 'ust pick u i personal promises. can i 'ust pick u- on personal promises. can i 'ust pick up on — personal promises. can i 'ust pick upononetningfi personal promises. can i 'ust pick up on one thing on i personal promises. can ijust pick up on one thing on wages? i personal promises. can ijust pick| up on one thing on wages? higher wages, the demands of public sector unions, like the rmt. do you see that as a risk or a good thing, because it will resolve the strikes? what will it do economically in terms of, if they are, inflation busting pay rises? it terms of, if they are, inflation busting pay rises?— terms of, if they are, inflation busting pay rises? it would drive up inflation, it — busting pay rises? it would drive up inflation, it would _ busting pay rises? it would drive up inflation, it would be _ busting pay rises? it would drive up inflation, it would be a _ busting pay rises? it would drive up inflation, it would be a small i busting pay rises? it would drive up inflation, it would be a small part i inflation, it would be a small part of driving — inflation, it would be a small part of driving up inflation, of course it would — of driving up inflation, of course it would. any pay rise, you me, someone — it would. any pay rise, you me, someone working in a hospital, some possibly— someone working in a hospital, some possibly in— someone working in a hospital, some possibly in a — someone working in a hospital, some possibly in a bank, drives up inflation _ possibly in a bank, drives up inflation. , , , ., inflation. only if the employees are set onto their _ inflation. only if the employees are set onto their customers, _ inflation. only if the employees are set onto their customers, and i inflation. only if the employees are set onto their customers, and they | set onto their customers, and they have been driving up prices without any pay rises of the last few years. prices have gone up anyway, there has not been a wage price spiral, there has been a price spiral

without wages going up. irate there has been a price spiral without wages going up. we are now... ajunior _ without wages going up. we are now. .. ajunior doctor— without wages going up. we are now... ajunior doctor is - without wages going up. we are now... a junior doctor is not i now. .. a 'unior doctor is not earning— now... ajunior doctor is not earning what _ now... ajunior doctor is not earning what they _ now... ajunior doctor is not earning what they used i now... ajunior doctor is not earning what they used to i now... a junior doctor is not i earning what they used to earn five years ago, it is as simple as that. but real wages are up. but years ago, it is as simple as that. but real wages are up.— but real wages are up. but only recentl . but real wages are up. but only recently- i— but real wages are up. but only recently. i don't _ but real wages are up. but only recently. i don't know - but real wages are up. but only recently. i don't know enough l recently. i don't know enough about the internal — recently. i don't know enough about the internal dynamics _ recently. i don't know enough about the internal dynamics of _ recently. i don't know enough about the internal dynamics of people i the internal dynamics of people working — the internal dynamics of people working in the public sector. of course — working in the public sector. of course it— working in the public sector. of course it is— working in the public sector. of course it is to end up costing somebody more, that is how the world works _ somebody more, that is how the world works i_ somebody more, that is how the world works ithink— somebody more, that is how the world works. i think with regard to the labour— works. i think with regard to the labour manifesto, mick is right, you might— labour manifesto, mick is right, you might want— labour manifesto, mick is right, you might want undiluted, but normal people _ might want undiluted, but normal people find it palatable with a bit of sweetness, some ofjuice, and i think— of sweetness, some ofjuice, and i think the _ of sweetness, some ofjuice, and i think the business committee wants to see _ think the business committee wants to see that— think the business committee wants to see that it comes with some certain— to see that it comes with some certain sweetness to make it go down _ certain sweetness to make it go down it— certain sweetness to make it go down. it will have an impact on jobs. _ down. it will have an impact on jobs. and — down. it will have an impact on jobs, and hiring, it lends itself to less risky— jobs, and hiring, it lends itself to less risky hiring, and that hits the problem — less risky hiring, and that hits the

problem of— problem of getting people back into work _ problem of getting people back into work. ., , ., , ., work. people are being hired to really poor— work. people are being hired to really poor quality _ work. people are being hired to really poor quality jobs, - work. people are being hired to really poor quality jobs, they i work. people are being hired to| really poor quality jobs, they are really poor qualityjobs, they are underpaid for the work they do, they are not getting the full value of their labour, which is why the economy is struggling. we cannot have a low—wage economy when... let's hear from geoffrey. have a low—wage economy when... let's hearfrom geoffrey. hang on, hang on. let's hear from geoffrey. hang on, hant on. �* , , , let's hear from geoffrey. hang on, hanton.�* , , ., ., let's hear from geoffrey. hang on, hanton., ,., .,, hang on. business owners do not seem to be able to — hang on. business owners do not seem to be able to come _ hang on. business owners do not seem to be able to come up _ hang on. business owners do not seem to be able to come up with _ to be able to come up with productivity. to be able to come up with productivity-— to be able to come up with productivity. to be able to come up with troductivi . �* , , ., , ., productivity. let's see what you think of some _ productivity. let's see what you think of some of _ productivity. let's see what you think of some of the _ productivity. let's see what you think of some of the ideas i productivity. let's see what you think of some of the ideas in i productivity. let's see what you | think of some of the ideas in the green party manifesto, because that has been lodged. the green party of england and wales. we can see some pictures of that once, i think, we are going to talk to the co—leader of the green party, adrian ramsay. it has been called game changing, your manifesto, game changing manifesto in health, housing, transport, and the green economy. what exactly are you trying to pitch to voters? good afternoon. we are highlighting that we have multiple crises to address. the nhs is severely

overstressed, patients are in corridors and people, get access to a gp or dentist when they need one we have a crisis of affordability and housing and people are being priced out of living in their own community and we have an urgency tackle the scandal of sewage in our rivers and the climate crisis and all of these things need investment. the institute for fiscal studies has been clear that the next government will have to cut public services or increase taxes, so the green party is being honest that we should ask those with the broadest shoulders in society including multimillionaires and billionaires to pay modestly more in tax, particular by european standards, we are talking about taking the uk closer to european levels of tax and spending so we can have closer to european levels of public services that we can all benefit from and where people aren't finding that they are forking out for private dentists and all the other things that result in not having those public services. you talked about _ having those public services. you talked about investment and you say the next government should invest an

extra £50 billion per year on the nhs, funded, as you say by those with a broader shoulders. increasing tax on the top 1% of earners and bring in capital gains tax, the tax on assets, in line with income tax bands because they are lower. how are you going to get that past? what are you going to get that past? what we are saying _ are you going to get that past? what we are saying is _ are you going to get that past? what we are saying is we _ are you going to get that past? what we are saying is we are _ are you going to get that past? “tit"isgit we are saying is we are asking the very richest in society, the multimillionaires and billionaires to pay a certain percentage according to their wealth so it would start at 10 million people with wealth and assets over 10 million would pay 1% on their wealth and assets above ten million and it would rise to 2% for people with assets and wealth over a billion so thatis assets and wealth over a billion so that is one of the clear proposals and an example of how those with broad shoulders could be asked to pay more that could raise significant amounts of money by the end of the next parliament to enable us to make these important changes needed to defend and restore the nhs and to invest in affordable housing

and to invest in affordable housing and in the transition to a green economy. to and in the transition to a green economy-— economy. to be clear with our viewers. _ economy. to be clear with our viewers. when _ economy. to be clear with our viewers, when you _ economy. to be clear with our viewers, when you say - economy. to be clear with our viewers, when you say those i economy. to be clear with our. viewers, when you say those with economy. to be clear with our- viewers, when you say those with a broader shoulders, you are talking about anyone earning more than £50,270, that's a good salary, significantly higher than the national average but imagining a household with £50,000 supporting a family, you are saying they are the ones with the broadest shoulders. so, as you say, anyone earning less than 50,000 will not be affected by our tax proposals and there will be some small changes for those earning a bit over 50,000 where we asked people to say it —— pay the same percentage on national insurance regardless of their income and at the moment you pay a smaller percentage on national insurance, so that would mean £5 per week extra for someone on 55,000, and we feel thatis for someone on 55,000, and we feel that is a good investment to ask people for and if those people will benefit from lower energy bills because we have more renewable energy and we've invested in

insulating people's homes to keep their homes warm and we have a better and secure food supply because we supported farmers to produce food and we have a better health care and dental system where we don't have to walk out for a private dentist, so everyone will benefit from the changes we are proposing. benefit from the changes we are tttroosin. i , benefit from the changes we are tttroosin. . , .,, ., benefit from the changes we are toroosint.�* , ., , , benefit from the changes we are entroosin." , ., , ., proposing. andy, as a response, how eas is it proposing. andy, as a response, how easy is it to — proposing. andy, as a response, how easy is it to raise _ proposing. andy, as a response, how easy is it to raise that _ proposing. andy, as a response, how easy is it to raise that sort _ proposing. andy, as a response, how easy is it to raise that sort of- easy is it to raise that sort of money, the £50 billion extra for the nhs being proposed from taxes on the super wealthy or a wealth tax? it’s super wealthy or a wealth tax? it's a very round number, 50 billion quid _ a very round number, 50 billion quid. my— a very round number, 50 billion quid. my spidey sense has been triggered. when taxing across the world _ triggered. when taxing across the world has— triggered. when taxing across the world has been tried with well taxing. — world has been tried with well taxing. it _ world has been tried with well taxing, it has invariably failed. it is still— taxing, it has invariably failed. it is still pretty mobile in the capital— is still pretty mobile in the capital gain stuff talked about their— capital gain stuff talked about their is— capital gain stuff talked about their is properly shouted crackers. why shouldn't assets be taxed in the same way as income?— same way as income? capital gains, this is basically _ same way as income? capital gains, this is basically a _ same way as income? capital gains, this is basically a tax _ same way as income? capital gains, this is basically a tax on _ this is basically a tax on entrepreneurship in many ways and it would _ entrepreneurship in many ways and it would put _

entrepreneurship in many ways and it would put a _ entrepreneurship in many ways and it would put a sign up on britain say closed _ would put a sign up on britain say closed to— would put a sign up on britain say closed to the business. if the green party— closed to the business. if the green party won— closed to the business. if the green party won loads of exciting entrepreneurs to come to the uk and build green _ entrepreneurs to come to the uk and build green energy businesses are let's say, — build green energy businesses are let's say, i— build green energy businesses are let's say, i would quite like that in the _ let's say, i would quite like that in the city— let's say, i would quite like that in the city would really like and invest — in the city would really like and invest in— in the city would really like and invest in it _ in the city would really like and invest in it but they won't come here _ invest in it but they won't come here if— invest in it but they won't come here if there is no reason to run your— here if there is no reason to run your own — here if there is no reason to run your own business.— your own business. adrian, it is crackers- _ your own business. adrian, it is crackers. there _ your own business. adrian, it is crackers. there are _ your own business. adrian, it is crackers. there are other i your own business. adrian, it is crackers. there are other forms your own business. adrian, it is i crackers. there are other forms of incentives — crackers. there are other forms of incentives we _ crackers. there are other forms of incentives we can _ crackers. there are other forms of incentives we can give _ crackers. there are other forms of incentives we can give to - crackers. there are other forms of incentives we can give to green i incentives we can give to green businesses that the green party would want to do and if you look at countries that have introduced a wealth tax like spain or switzerland, that's been well established for some time and i think people live in this country for a ride range of reasons and i think people with significant wealth and assets love this country like i do and how family commitments here and have business commitments here and have business commitments here and it's not actually that easy if you have a successful business to pack up and leave. the figures we've put together with support from academics and outside organisations are cautious. we've taken account that there may be a small number of people who choose to move as a result of the tax, but most people

are not going to do that. let result of the tax, but most people are not going to do that.— are not going to do that. let andy re-l . are not going to do that. let andy reply- you — are not going to do that. let andy reply- you said — are not going to do that. let andy reply. you said that _ are not going to do that. let andy reply. you said that 50 _ are not going to do that. let andy reply. you said that 50 billion i are not going to do that. let andy reply. you said that 50 billion is l reply. you said that 50 billion is around number. _ reply. you said that 50 billion is around number. finish - reply. you said that 50 billion is around number. finish your- reply. you said that 50 billion is i around number. finish your thought. he said it was _ around number. finish your thought. he said it was a _ around number. finish your thought. he said it was a round _ around number. finish your thought. he said it was a round number- around number. finish your thought. he said it was a round number and i | he said it was a round numberand i have routed it for the purposes of talking to you, but if you look at the specific figures in the manifesto it is broken down into exactly what we would expand across all aspects of health and social care and how we would increase that over the course of the parliament as we grow the capacity of the workforce. these are serious figures that show you can have a plan over the course of the next five years. let andy respond. boufal i think i've been fairly clear, i“m sceptical of the numbers and i think it would be a tremendously bad thing for britain's business reputation and for investment into uk businesses which is what we started the programme talking about the desperate need for, so i don't think it's a good idea. one thing i did here was the word social care. that's one of the other things that

have not— that's one of the other things that have not been talked about in this election — have not been talked about in this election. we have not been talked about in this election. ~ ., have not been talked about in this election. . ., ., ., «t election. we have tried to talk about it. hang _ election. we have tried to talk about it. hang on, _ election. we have tried to talk about it. hang on, making i about it. hang on, making comparisons with other european countries when you mention the introduction of wealth taxes, we just had the european elections of course, and actually the european greens in germany, austria, france, belgium, portugal, austria and finland and i think i said austria twice, saw a reduction in the number of green meps, their seats and share of green meps, their seats and share of the vote went down. that is not a vote of confidence in green policy, is it? ~ ., vote of confidence in green policy, is it? . ., , ., ., is it? well, i am standing here to re-resent is it? well, i am standing here to represent the _ is it? well, i am standing here to represent the green _ is it? well, i am standing here to represent the green party i is it? well, i am standing here to represent the green party of i is it? well, i am standing here to i represent the green party of england and wales where over the last five elections we've seen an increase in the number of elected greens five folder crossing in wales all corners of the country winning seats from labour and the conservatives, from older and younger voters and in rural and older and younger voters and in ruraland urban older and younger voters and in rural and urban areas and we are standing candidates across the country this time with a fantastic

chance in those seats where we campaign hard on the ground and people are used to having green councillors representing them and know that by having a green mp representing them they have the voice in parliament that will push the next government to be bolder and pushit the next government to be bolder and push it beyond the baby steps for the change that we need. i periii the change that we need. i will brint in the change that we need. i will bring in some _ the change that we need. i will bring in some of— the change that we need. i will bring in some of the _ the change that we need. i will bring in some of the other i the change that we need. i will bring in some of the other guests. mick lynch, is there anything you've heard you don't like our other green party something you can get behind? we think they got interesting ideas and we _ we think they got interesting ideas and we think— we think they got interesting ideas and we think labour— we think they got interesting ideas and we think labour should - we think they got interesting ideas and we think labour should be i we think they got interesting ideas. and we think labour should be brave on the _ and we think labour should be brave on the tax _ and we think labour should be brave on the tax approach _ and we think labour should be brave on the tax approach and _ and we think labour should be brave on the tax approach and they- and we think labour should be brave on the tax approach and they should j on the tax approach and they should be more _ on the tax approach and they should be more debate _ on the tax approach and they should be more debate about— on the tax approach and they should be more debate about aggressive i on the tax approach and they should i be more debate about aggressive tax across _ be more debate about aggressive tax across the _ be more debate about aggressive tax across the parties. _ be more debate about aggressive tax across the parties. i— be more debate about aggressive tax across the parties. i don't _ be more debate about aggressive tax across the parties. i don't follow i across the parties. i don't follow the line — across the parties. i don't follow the line that _ across the parties. i don't follow the line that every _ across the parties. i don't follow the line that every business i across the parties. i don't follow the line that every business willl across the parties. i don't follow i the line that every business will be discouraged. — the line that every business will be discouraged, there _ the line that every business will be discouraged, there is— the line that every business will be discouraged, there is a _ the line that every business will be discouraged, there is a lot - the line that every business will be discouraged, there is a lot of- the line that every business will be discouraged, there is a lot of genej discouraged, there is a lot of gene related _ discouraged, there is a lot of gene related wealth, _ discouraged, there is a lot of gene related wealth, just _ discouraged, there is a lot of gene related wealth, just accumulated i related wealth, just accumulated with the — related wealth, just accumulated with the wrong _ related wealth, just accumulated with the wrong people. - related wealth, just accumulated with the wrong people. there - related wealth, just accumulated| with the wrong people. there are some _ with the wrong people. there are some mega- _ with the wrong people. there are some mega— wealthy— with the wrong people. there are some mega— wealthy people - with the wrong people. there are some mega— wealthy people in. with the wrong people. there are . some mega— wealthy people in this country— some mega— wealthy people in this country who— some mega— wealthy people in this country who should _ some mega— wealthy people in this country who should pay _ some mega— wealthy people in this country who should pay more - some mega— wealthy people in this country who should pay more tax . some mega— wealthy people in this i country who should pay more tax and as a percentage, _ country who should pay more tax and as a percentage, they— country who should pay more tax and as a percentage, they pay _ country who should pay more tax and as a percentage, they pay less - country who should pay more tax and as a percentage, they pay less tax i as a percentage, they pay less tax than ordinary— as a percentage, they pay less tax than ordinary people, _ as a percentage, they pay less tax than ordinary people, so - as a percentage, they pay less tax than ordinary people, so that - as a percentage, they pay less tax . than ordinary people, so that should be worked _ than ordinary people, so that should be worked out — than ordinary people, so that should be worked out and _ than ordinary people, so that should be worked out and i— than ordinary people, so that should be worked out and i like _ than ordinary people, so that should be worked out and i like the - than ordinary people, so that should be worked out and i like the public. be worked out and i like the public transport policy _ be worked out and i like the public transport policy and _ be worked out and i like the public transport policy and i— be worked out and i like the public transport policy and i wish - be worked out and i like the public transport policy and i wish labouri transport policy and i wish labour would _ transport policy and i wish labour would look— transport policy and i wish labour would look at _ transport policy and i wish labour would look at some _ transport policy and i wish labour would look at some of— transport policy and i wish labour would look at some of the - transport policy and i wish labour would look at some of the ideas i transport policy and i wish labour. would look at some of the ideas and be more _ would look at some of the ideas and be more bold — would look at some of the ideas and be more bold in— would look at some of the ideas and be more bold in their— would look at some of the ideas and be more bold in their approach. - would look at some of the ideas and be more bold in their approach. marl be more bold in their approach. h;- tube be more bold in their approach. tube vote green? i'll be be more bold in theirapproach. iei- tube vote green? i'll be voting be more bold in their approach.

tube vote green? i'll be voting to get the government out so i'll be voting labour —— will you be voting green? you might not like it but it is a transformative proposition. i is a transformative proposition. i was going to take us back, will you allow— was going to take us back, will you allow us _ was going to take us back, will you allow us to— was going to take us back, will you allow us to do it? i can't really take _ allow us to do it? i can't really take the — allow us to do it? i can't really take the green party at all seriously as long as they don't tackle — seriously as long as they don't tackle the anti—semitism in the green — tackle the anti—semitism in the green party which i had to tackle in the labour— green party which i had to tackle in the labour party and i want to put two adrian — the labour party and i want to put two adrian three cases. let�*s the labour party and i want to put two adrian three cases.— two adrian three cases. let's not talk about _ two adrian three cases. let's not talk about any — two adrian three cases. let's not talk about any live _ two adrian three cases. let's not talk about any live cases. - two adrian three cases. let's not talk about any live cases. this i talk about any live cases. this isn't a live _ talk about any live cases. this isn't a live case. _ talk about any live cases. this isn't a live case. let _ talk about any live cases. this isn't a live case. let me - talk about any live cases. this isn't a live case. let me put . talk about any live cases. this isn't a live case. let me put a| isn't a live case. let me put a reneral isn't a live case. let me put a general question. _ isn't a live case. let me put a general question. there - isn't a live case. let me put a general question. there are l general question. there are investigations ongoing, adrian, into some of the newly elected green councillors. what is happening and how many people are we talking about? 50 how many people are we talking about? , . , . ,, , how many people are we talking about? , . , .~ , about? so the green party takes any form of racism _ about? so the green party takes any form of racism and _ about? so the green party takes any form of racism and in _ about? so the green party takes any form of racism and in particular- form of racism and in particular anti—semitism very seriously and we have a process like other parties where if there are questions raised about things candidates have said all likes on social media, those are

properly investigated, separate from the party leadership and we are standing 574 candidates in this general election and their were a number when questions were raised and they were investigated and four of those candidates were originally selected who are no longer standing and where we have selected alternative candidates in their place. that is four out of 574 and we are standing a record number across the country.— we are standing a record number across the country. which you admit there have been _ across the country. which you admit there have been problems _ across the country. which you admit there have been problems and - across the country. which you admit there have been problems and a - there have been problems and a number of them, and i'd rather not go into specific cases. let number of them, and i'd rather not go into specific cases.— go into specific cases. let me 'ust sa , go into specific cases. let me 'ust say. there — go into specific cases. let me 'ust say. there fl go into specific cases. let me 'ust say, there are three i go into specific cases. let me just say, there are three candidates i l say, there are three candidates i have _ say, there are three candidates i have got— say, there are three candidates i have got here who are still down as candidates — have got here who are still down as candidates for your party, adrian, one of— candidates for your party, adrian, one of them has said that israel was aware _ one of them has said that israel was aware of— one of them has said that israel was aware of the hamas plan on the 7th of october— aware of the hamas plan on the 7th of october and idf soldiers actively participated in the killing of their own civilians in order to not train -- trade — own civilians in order to not train —— trade hostages. that was posted on facebook. and another liked a post that — on facebook. and another liked a

post that said israel must be eliminated. and another one claimed thatjeffrey epstein ran eliminated. and another one claimed that jeffrey epstein ran a blackmail operation — that jeffrey epstein ran a blackmail operation for israel. these are really— operation for israel. these are really serious allegations and i cannot— really serious allegations and i cannot even start to engage in your economic— cannot even start to engage in your economic policy and your public expenditure commitments and how you will fund _ expenditure commitments and how you will fund them until you sort out anti—semitism. it has infected your party— anti—semitism. it has infected your party in _ anti—semitism. it has infected your party in the — anti—semitism. it has infected your party in the same way it infected labour— party in the same way it infected labour and — party in the same way it infected labour and you ought to deal with it. . . all of labour and you ought to deal with it.- all of those _ labour and you ought to deal with it.- all of those quotes i labour and you ought to deal with | it.- all of those quotes that it. adrian? all of those quotes that ou it. adrian? all of those quotes that you highlighted _ it. adrian? all of those quotes that you highlighted there, _ it. adrian? all of those quotes that you highlighted there, margaret, l it. adrian? all of those quotes that i you highlighted there, margaret, are completely unacceptable things for anyone to say. i'm not going to get into which individuals who may or may not all be in the governance process, but i'm very clear that the green party as a whole is condemning in the strongest possible terms the awful attacks on hamas on the 7th of october and we want to see the hostages released unconditionally and we've been calling for a

ceasefire on both sides throughout so the terrible atrocities israel have faced come to an end and we see the terrible images on the news every day and the people losing their lives in the aid not getting through and the international criminal court has been clear that there's been appalling action on both sides and we have to be careful how we express ourselves on this given that the vulnerability that so many people in the muslim and jewish communities are facing at this time. adrian ramsay, thank you very much and just briefly because i want to talk about trust in politics and we haven't got long. do you accept you haven't got long. do you accept you have lost signal in support and had labour councillors quit over the issue of israel and gaza —— a significant support. it’s issue of israel and gaza -- a significant support. it's been an incredibly difficult _ significant support. it's been an incredibly difficult issue - significant support. it's been an incredibly difficult issue and - significant support. it's been an incredibly difficult issue and i i incredibly difficult issue and i have — incredibly difficult issue and i have stayed close to the muslim mps all the _ have stayed close to the muslim mps all the way _ have stayed close to the muslim mps all the way through to try and keep them _ all the way through to try and keep them going and we will see what happens — them going and we will see what happens. in the end, i have been out on the _ happens. in the end, i have been out on the doorstep and i've beenin been in constituencies with large muslim — been in constituencies with large muslim populations and in the end

it's a _ muslim populations and in the end it's a bit— muslim populations and in the end it's a bit like mick, everybody wants— it's a bit like mick, everybody wants rid _ it's a bit like mick, everybody wants rid of the government and they will vote _ wants rid of the government and they will vote labour. there is a choice between — will vote labour. there is a choice between the two and they will vote labour _ between the two and they will vote labour to _ between the two and they will vote labour to come back. we will see whether— labour to come back. we will see whether it — labour to come back. we will see whether it has an impact on one or two constituencies but there people who are _ two constituencies but there people who are looking at the bigger picture — who are looking at the bigger picture. i�*ll who are looking at the bigger icture. �* ., ~ , , who are looking at the bigger icture. �* . ,, , , . picture. i'll talk briefly about trust in politics _ picture. i'll talk briefly about trust in politics and - picture. i'll talk briefly about trust in politics and get - picture. i'll talk briefly about trust in politics and get your| trust in politics and get your response, jeffrey, because it's been carried out by the election experts saying that trust and confidence in the public is at its lowest ebb after ia years of conservatives being in power. does it surprise you? it of conservatives being in power. does it surprise you?— does it surprise you? it doesn't surrise does it surprise you? it doesn't surprise me _ does it surprise you? it doesn't surprise me that _ does it surprise you? it doesn't surprise me that over— does it surprise you? it doesn't surprise me that over the - does it surprise you? it doesn't surprise me that over the last l does it surprise you? it doesn't i surprise me that over the last 20 does it surprise you? it doesn't - surprise me that over the last 20 or 30 years we've seen a radical drop. we saw a major drop after the tony blair government and turnout, the blair government and turnout, the blair government and turnout, the blair government got the majorities with 36%. blair government got the ma'orities with 36%. ., , ., blair government got the majorities with 36%._ 2001 - with 36%. that is not true. 2001 that is what _ with 36%. that is not true. 2001 that is what happened. - with 36%. that is not true. 2001 that is what happened. that's i with 36%. that is not true. 2001. that is what happened. that'sjust that is what happened. that's 'ust not true. have �* that is what happened. that's 'ust not true. have a i that is what happened. that's 'ust not true. have a look i that is what happened. that's 'ust not true. have a look at i that is what happened. that's 'ust not true. have a look at the h not true. have a look at the figures- _ not true. have a look at the figures- l — not true. have a look at the figures. i think _ not true. have a look at the figures. i think there's - not true. have a look at the j figures. i think there's been not true. have a look at the l figures. i think there's been a trend in this direction. we had extraordinary events like brexit and

the pandemic and i think the question is, what we do about it? i don't think it is blame a bull on any one party. that's naive and opportunistic. i think all parties share and civic institutions generally share responsibility for restoring trust in our democratic system. the moment we start blaming it on one party or another we reduce it. �* , , ., ., it. but the disillusionment over brexit amongst _ it. but the disillusionment over brexit amongst leave - it. but the disillusionment over brexit amongst leave voters i it. but the disillusionment over brexit amongst leave voters is| it. but the disillusionment over - brexit amongst leave voters is one of the striking parts of this survey that has been carried out. what do you say about that? you have it delivered brexit in the way people wanted. ~ �* ., , . wanted. we've left the european union and that _ wanted. we've left the european union and that is _ wanted. we've left the european union and that is what _ wanted. we've left the european union and that is what the - wanted. we've left the european| union and that is what the british people voted for in 2016. we have left it. there may or may not be reasonable disagreement about what has happened in northern ireland but we have definitely left the european union. that verdict had to be delivered. in 2019 the labour party and keir starmer were manoeuvring to block it. taste and keir starmer were manoeuvring to block it. ~ ., and keir starmer were manoeuvring to block it. ~ . ., ., . block it. we are out of time. we will have to _ block it. we are out of time. we

will have to carry _ block it. we are out of time. we will have to carry on _ block it. we are out of time. we will have to carry on the - will have to carry on the conversation without you. goodbye.

today at one... rishi sunak says he has absolutely not lost hope of winning the general election and warns against giving labour a blank cheque in government. it comes a day after the tories launched their election manifesto. this morning the defence secretary urged voters not to give labour a landslide victory and a supermajority in parliament. it would be very bad news for people in this country. a blank cheque, allowing someone to do anything they wanted, particularly when their particular set of plans are so vague. meanwhile the green party launch their manifesto, saying they would increase taxes on millionaires and billionaires. also on the programme this lunchtime... former nurse lucy letby back in court for a retrial —

charged with trying to murder a baby eight years ago in chester.