good evening. over the next 30 minutes, the leader of plaid cymru, rhun ap iorwerth, faces questions from voters. what does plaid cymru have to offer and will their leader change any minds tonight? our audience here reflects a range of political views, with some voters here yet to decide who to back on july the 4th. we are here as part of the question time leaders specials. you can catch up with last week was �*s programme on iplayer and the final programme in this series will be on friday night. remember, you canjoin in the be on friday night. remember, you can join in the conversation at home on social media. please welcome the leader of plaid cymru, rhun ap iorwerth. applause

just to be clear, rhun ap iorwerth has no prior knowledge of the questions tonight. let's turn to the first question. abigail ensor. faith in politics is at an all—time low, what are you going to do . to restore our trust in politicians? ifi if i can come a bit closer to you, thank you for the question. to me, it cuts to the heart of why we are here. we are asking you to consider voting for us and i think it is a basic premise that you should be able to trust what we are saying. we can look at it in terms of policy. you might have seen reports today, the institute for fiscal studies raising questions about how honest the labour party and the conservatives are being whether tax and spending plans, that they are not really telling you how they are going to go about saving these £18 billion that both parties say,

implicitly, they have to make. we want honesty, and hopefully this evening we will get to talk about some of plaid cymru and my views on that. also, it is in behaviour, at a fundamental level, we have lived in recent weeks through what i think it's fair to call the biggest scandal we have had in the story of devolution, with a £200,000 that was accepted by the first minister, vaughan gething, to his leadership campaign, which i think was a big error ofjudgment. perhaps even more of an air of error ofjudgment. perhaps even more ofan air ofjudgment error ofjudgment. perhaps even more of an air ofjudgment was his insistence ever since then to not accept he had done wrong. standing over there, answering questions from me the other night, he was again refusing to acknowledge or even apologise. the refusing to acknowledge or even aoloaise. , ., , ., apologise. the question is what would you _ apologise. the question is what would you do- _ apologise. the question is what would you do. what _ apologise. the question is what would you do. what would - apologise. the question is what| would you do. what would plaid apologise. the question is what - would you do. what would plaid cymru do? you have had your troubles too and you are a leader. a year ago, adam price had to step down after reports, allegations of misogyny,

allegations of a toxic culture of bullying in your party. what would plaid cymru do? it bullying in your party. what would plaid cymru do?— plaid cymru do? it was a difficult time for us _ plaid cymru do? it was a difficult time for us as _ plaid cymru do? it was a difficult time for us as a _ plaid cymru do? it was a difficult time for us as a party. _ plaid cymru do? it was a difficult time for us as a party. like - plaid cymru do? it was a difficult time for us as a party. like so i plaid cymru do? it was a difficult i time for us as a party. like so many political parties or organisations, we were told truths about ourselves that were really uncomfortable. you don't want to be in a position, but we were. hopefully, the fact that i stood there when i put myself forward for the leadership and became the leader, the fact i said, listen, we are serious about this, and a year on we are still serious, having gone through the regulations that came out in the report, and still saying, please test us, continue to hold us to account. that is what i asked people to do. ask the tough questions. press us. hold us to account. as i say, as i said at the start, we are asking you to trust us and it has to be through our deeds as well as words and policies. our deeds as well as words and olicies. �* , ., , ., , our deeds as well as words and olicies. �* , ., , ., policies. any tough questions on trust? let's _ policies. any tough questions on trust? let's go _ policies. any tough questions on trust? let's go to _ policies. any tough questions on trust? let's go to the _ policies. any tough questions on i trust? let's go to the gentleman policies. any tough questions on i trust? let's go to the gentleman in the second row and then the lady at the second row and then the lady at the back. in

the second row and then the lady at the back. ., ., ., , the back. in relation to the betting scandal that _ the back. in relation to the betting scandal that is _ the back. in relation to the betting scandal that is going _ the back. in relation to the betting scandal that is going on _ the back. in relation to the betting scandal that is going on at - the back. in relation to the betting scandal that is going on at the - scandal that is going on at the moment, _ scandal that is going on at the moment, i wanted to ask you personally if one of your candidates had bet _ personally if one of your candidates had bet on — personally if one of your candidates had bet on the election date, would you suspend them straightaway? | you suspend them straightaway? i think you suspend them straightaway? think of you suspend them straightaway? i think of anyone in my party had insider knowledge from downing street about when the election was going to be, i'd be very surprised, for starters. the question you asked, really, should rishi sunak be taking that action against people? there is an investigation going on, these are very serious allegations against what appears to be an increasing number of people. it absolutely does cut to the heart of trust in politics.— trust in politics. rhun ap iorwerth the question _ trust in politics. rhun ap iorwerth the question is _ trust in politics. rhun ap iorwerth the question is if _ trust in politics. rhun ap iorwerth the question is if somebody - trust in politics. rhun ap iorwerth the question is if somebody in - trust in politics. rhun ap iorwerth. the question is if somebody in your party did that, would you suspend them? keir starmer has said he would today. what sort of leader are you on this? i’d today. what sort of leader are you on this? �* ~ ., today. what sort of leader are you on this? �* ~' ., ~' today. what sort of leader are you on this? �* ~ ., ~ ., on this? i'd like to think i would, it's difficult _ on this? i'd like to think i would, it's difficult to _ on this? i'd like to think i would, it's difficult to put _ on this? i'd like to think i would, it's difficult to put yourself - on this? i'd like to think i would, it's difficult to put yourself in - it's difficult to put yourself in that position, it specifically around calling an election date. you want to be able to take a call as quickly and as effectively as

possible, when you recognise that something is wrong. in this instance, we know that something is wrong. therefore, yes, iwould instance, we know that something is wrong. therefore, yes, i would like to think that i would take swift action in that context. you would susend action in that context. you would suspend them? _ action in that context. you would suspend them? adam _ action in that context. you would suspend them? adam price, - action in that context. you would | suspend them? adam price, your predecessor, wants to legislate to ban politicians from lying. how would that work?— ban politicians from lying. how would that work? adam was raising this in 2007 — would that work? adam was raising this in 2007 when _ would that work? adam was raising this in 2007 when he _ would that work? adam was raising this in 2007 when he was _ would that work? adam was raising this in 2007 when he was an - would that work? adam was raising this in 2007 when he was an mp. i this in 2007 when he was an mp. under westminster leader of plaid cymru has also tried to raise legislation to insist in openness and honesty with politicians. i think that's a pretty good idea. it's not an easy thing to test. how do you prove that somebody has been purposefully deceptive? it's difficult. at the fact it is difficult. at the fact it is difficult shouldn't me and that we don't try to do it. because it would be another way of showing that we are serious about wanting to be considered to be honest by you, the voters. that is what it is all about. it's a deal in an election.

we say this, i want you to be able to trust what we are saying. you talk about _ to trust what we are saying. you talk about deals. _ to trust what we are saying. you talk about deals. you have already said you were not impressed with vaughan gething, you have walked out of a co—operation agreement. when people are voting for somebody, they want to know if you would go into a deal ever again with labour. i believe in cooperation. never in a story of devolution has a single party had an overall majority, and that means that political parties have to work together. i think most people would think that is a mature way of acting. it happens in all sorts of different ways. you will have labour and conservative members working together on committees. there have been coalitions in the past. my party of the liberal democrats have been in coalition. we have this cooperation agreement. we have this cooperation agreement. we have to always find ways of cooperating because i get elected in order to do stuff. i get elected because i want to serve my community. so because i want to serve my community-— because i want to serve my community. because i want to serve my communi . ., community. so you might go back with labour? community. so you might go back with labour? it's — community. so you might go back with labour? it's rrot _ community. so you might go back with labour? it's not a _ community. so you might go back with labour? it's not a matter— community. so you might go back with labour? it's not a matter of— community. so you might go back with labour? it's not a matter of could - labour? it's not a matter of could there be a —

labour? it's not a matter of could there be a deal— labour? it's not a matter of could there be a deal with _ labour? it's not a matter of could there be a deal with labour - labour? it's not a matter of could there be a deal with labour now, | labour? it's not a matter of could | there be a deal with labour now, i don't think anybody is expecting any deal now. in future, parties have to work together. that's the normal way politics works, in most countries. it's very rare that you have an electoral system like the uk that promotes the first past the post system, one party wins, everybody else loses. ., system, one party wins, everybody else loses-— system, one party wins, everybody else loses. ., �* , ., else loses. you might, 0k. let's go to the second _ else loses. you might, 0k. let's go to the second question. _ emily handstock. how would you ensure wales receives fair funding and its best _ interests are represented? what do you think, emily? it reflects on what you have said above cooperation — reflects on what you have said above cooperation. regardless— reflects on what you have said above cooperation. regardless of- reflects on what you have said above cooperation. regardless of how - reflects on what you have said above cooperation. regardless of how the i cooperation. regardless of how the results _ cooperation. regardless of how the results go _ cooperation. regardless of how the results go on — cooperation. regardless of how the results go on the _ cooperation. regardless of how the results go on the 4th _ cooperation. regardless of how the results go on the 4th of— cooperation. regardless of how the results go on the 4th ofjuly, - cooperation. regardless of how the results go on the 4th ofjuly, even. results go on the 4th ofjuly, even if every— results go on the 4th ofjuly, even if every single _ results go on the 4th ofjuly, even if every single constituency- results go on the 4th ofjuly, even if every single constituency in - if every single constituency in wales— if every single constituency in wales is— if every single constituency in wales is a _ if every single constituency in wales is a plaid _ if every single constituency in wales is a plaid cymru - if every single constituency in - wales is a plaid cymru constituent, you will— wales is a plaid cymru constituent, you will still— wales is a plaid cymru constituent, you will still be _ wales is a plaid cymru constituent, you will still be outnumbered - wales is a plaid cymru constituent, you will still be outnumbered in- you will still be outnumbered in parliament _ you will still be outnumbered in parliament. how— you will still be outnumbered in parliament. how are _ you will still be outnumbered in parliament. how are you - you will still be outnumbered in parliament. how are you goingi you will still be outnumbered in. parliament. how are you going to represent — parliament. how are you going to represent our _ parliament. how are you going to represent our interests? - parliament. how are you going to represent our interests? you - parliament. how are you going to represent our interests? you have identified really _ represent our interests? you have identified really important - represent our interests? you have identified really important issues. | identified really important issues. in this election, the number of mps in wales is going down from 40, down

to 32. it's a real slashing of the welsh boys at westminster. we have to make sure every single one of those represents wales' interests. —— welsh voice. it doesn't help when parties parachute mps into constituencies. if you have mps in wales that have never shown interest in promoting welsh interests, that is a worry. plaid cymru has always shown through members of parliament, decades, back to the 1960s, that we punch above our weight. the key thing is that you have some of the heart of westminster making the case. i don't know if you saw the interview that the labour spokesman on wales gave, the week before last. what we saw was an absolute disinterest from uk labour politicians, from wales, jo stevens represented a seat in wales, they are not interested in making the

case... �* , are not interested in making the case... 3, are not interested in making the case... ., are not interested in making the case... let's stick to your policies- _ case... let's stick to your policies. rhun _ case... let's stick to your policies. rhun ap - case... let's stick to your. policies. rhun ap iorwerth, case... let's stick to your- policies. rhun ap iorwerth, let's stick to your policies. in that interview, jo stevens said clearly that the money for hs2, the train going through england, your whole manifesto is based on £4 billion coming to wales from that, she said very clearly the money is not there. rishi sunak said the money isn't there. ii i rishi sunak said the money isn't there. . ., rishi sunak said the money isn't there. . rishi sunak said the money isn't there. , there. ifi could correct you, she sa s there. ifi could correct you, she says hs? — there. ifi could correct you, she says h5? is _ there. ifi could correct you, she says h5? is not _ there. ifi could correct you, she says h52 is not there, _ there. ifi could correct you, she says h52 is not there, it - there. ifi could correct you, she says h52 is not there, it didn't i says hs2 is not there, it didn't exist. says h52 is not there, it didn't exist. ., , , �* , exist. the money isn't there, she said, and exist. the money isn't there, she said. and the _ exist. the money isn't there, she said, and the whole _ exist. the money isn't there, she said, and the whole manifesto i exist. the money isn't there, she said, and the whole manifesto is| said, and the whole manifesto is based on money that will not come, whoever wins the election. the whole manifesto is — whoever wins the election. the whole manifesto is not _ whoever wins the election. the whole manifesto is not based _ whoever wins the election. the whole manifesto is not based on _ whoever wins the election. the whole manifesto is not based on h52. - whoever wins the election. the whole manifesto is not based on h52. therej manifesto is not based on hs2. there are a raft of ways we think through being honest about taxation we can bring in more money. £4 billion is owed to wales, currently £60 billion plus is being spent on a railway line in england, not an inch of it in wales. and we are effectively subsidising it. it doesn't make sense to me. let's get that money to invest in infrastructure. we have to

be making a case for that. if labour say they won't even make the case because they think the railway line, which is literally being built this second, does not exist, does not bode well. second, does not exist, does not bode well-— second, does not exist, does not i bode well-_ you bode well. the gentleman yet? you talk about investing _ bode well. the gentleman yet? you talk about investing in _ bode well. the gentleman yet? you talk about investing in wales - bode well. the gentleman yet? you talk about investing in wales and i talk about investing in wales and representing wales. welsh start—ups have the _ representing wales. welsh start—ups have the lowest valuations throughout the uk and access to capital— throughout the uk and access to capital is — throughout the uk and access to capital is ridiculously difficult. how— capital is ridiculously difficult. how do — capital is ridiculously difficult. how do you build an environment that encourages— how do you build an environment that encourages welsh start—ups to thrive? — encourages welsh start-ups to thrive? ,., ., ,., ., thrive? good point. one of the thins i thrive? good point. one of the things i want — thrive? good point. one of the things i want to _ thrive? good point. one of the things i want to see _ thrive? good point. one of the things i want to see more - thrive? good point. one of the things i want to see more thanj things i want to see more than anything is to see wales prosper in anything is to see wales prosper in a way it hasn't in the past. we had a way it hasn't in the past. we had a raft of ideas. we might be able to talk about them this evening. we have to have a very business minded government in wales. one of the first speech as i gave after becoming leader was specifically on... in fact, becoming leader was specifically on... infact, the becoming leader was specifically on... in fact, the first major speech was on the economy and how we build a stronger economy in wales. one of the things i wanted to see was more long—term thinking by welsh government. all too often we see decisions being taken for the short

term. we would like to see the establishment of a new development agency for wales. establishment of a new development agency for wales-— establishment of a new development agency for wales. these are devolved issues. it encourages _ issues. it encourages entrepreneurship. i issues. it encourages l entrepreneurship. let's issues. it encourages - entrepreneurship. let's go issues. it encourages _ entrepreneurship. let's go back to the idea of— entrepreneurship. let's go back to the idea of funding. _ entrepreneurship. let's go back to the idea of funding. one _ entrepreneurship. let's go back to the idea of funding. one way - entrepreneurship. let's go back to the idea of funding. one way of i the idea of funding. one way of getting more money into wales is raising taxes. you have said taxes are good. if plaid cymru are in favour of high taxes? yes or no? yes for some, favour of high taxes? yes or no? yes for some. no — favour of high taxes? yes or no? jazz for some, no fathers. no favour of high taxes? yes or no? 193 for some, no fathers. no ordinary working people, we are not saying people should pay more tax on the money that they own. ida people should pay more tax on the money that they own.— people should pay more tax on the money that they own. no income tax rise on? that's _ money that they own. no income tax rise on? that's what _ money that they own. no income tax rise on? that's what i'm _ money that they own. no income tax rise on? that's what i'm saying, not| rise on? that's what i'm saying, not for middle income _ rise on? that's what i'm saying, not for middle income earners - rise on? that's what i'm saying, not for middle income earners at i rise on? that's what i'm saying, not for middle income earners at all, i for middle income earners at all, people have suffered enough. what we need to do, tax is normal, we need to bring money into the coffers on the treasury to pay for public services. the dishonesty we talked about at the start, about how much money is going to have to be saved and how much money has to be brought in, it does not help anybody. we say

we could bring in more windfall taxes, there are changes that could be made to capital gains tax so that people who make millions from shares actually pay the same amount of tax as you do, going out to work every hour. currently, rishi sunak on his shares would be paying less tax than you would on your earned income. these are means of making sure that the tax burden rests on shoulders that are more broad. so they are able to carry that.— that are more broad. so they are able to carry that. you're saying no raisin of able to carry that. you're saying no raising of income _ able to carry that. you're saying no raising of income tax, _ able to carry that. you're saying no raising of income tax, the - able to carry that. you're saying no raising of income tax, the 155 i able to carry that. you're saying no raising of income tax, the iss says| raising of income tax, the iss says today there is a conspiracy of silence. you want to raise child benefit, £20 per head. all of this is an awful lot of spending. and you're not actually putting any taxes. the iss has pointed out the big two parties today, you are in there too. i big two parties today, you are in there too-— big two parties today, you are in there too. :, , , . , there too. i mentioned specifically there too. i mentioned specifically the equalisation _ there too. i mentioned specifically the equalisation of _ there too. i mentioned specifically the equalisation of capital - there too. i mentioned specifically the equalisation of capital gains . the equalisation of capital gains tax. that would bring in £12 billion

or £15 billion. we think that introducing more windfall taxes could bring in maybe £10 billion to £15 billion over a five year period. there are other means, for example a wealth tax that we would like to investigate, perhaps a percentage point on wealth of over £10 million. you are talking about very, very few people that could bring in billions of pounds in that way, again, on the broadest shoulders. i think we are being pretty honest about that. thank you very much. our third question. sian melbourne. what is your personal view i on independence for wales? cani can i ask you your personal view? absolutely, i think that we are stronger— absolutely, i think that we are stronger as _ absolutely, i think that we are stronger as a _ absolutely, i think that we are stronger as a union. _ absolutely, i think that we are stronger as a union. i- absolutely, i think that we are stronger as a union. i would i absolutely, i think that we are i stronger as a union. i would not like to— stronger as a union. i would not like to see — stronger as a union. i would not like to see wales _ stronger as a union. i would not like to see wales become i like to see wales become independent. _ like to see wales become independent. various i like to see wales become i independent. various reasons, like to see wales become - independent. various reasons, lots of different — independent. various reasons, lots of different reasons _ independent. various reasons, lots of different reasons for _ independent. various reasons, lots of different reasons for that, - independent. various reasons, lots of different reasons for that, but i. of different reasons for that, but i do believe — of different reasons for that, but i do believe that _ of different reasons for that, but i do believe that as _ of different reasons for that, but i do believe that as a _ of different reasons for that, but i do believe that as a union - of different reasons for that, but i do believe that as a union we i of different reasons for that, but i do believe that as a union we are i do believe that as a union we are stronger— do believe that as a union we are stronger and _ do believe that as a union we are stronger and we _ do believe that as a union we are stronger and we can _ do believe that as a union we are stronger and we can do - do believe that as a union we are stronger and we can do a - do believe that as a union we are stronger and we can do a lot- do believe that as a union we are i stronger and we can do a lot more. thanks— stronger and we can do a lot more. thanks for— stronger and we can do a lot more. thanks for the _ stronger and we can do a lot more. thanks for the question. _ stronger and we can do a lot more. thanks for the question. i'm - stronger and we can do a lot more. | thanks for the question. i'm excited about what we can do as a nation.

i'm excited about being able to reach our potential and i think we're on a journey. everybody here is probably going to be on a different stage of the journey. you've decided you want to get off at a pretty early stage on the journey. i'm inviting you to just come with is a little bit further. who wouldn't want to investigate far we can go if we were able to take decisions of our own? the independent commission on the constitutional future of wales, after a huge engagement process, they said there are three viable options. a bit more devolution, federalism perhaps, or independence. a perfectly viable, just making a decision. there are risks with each one, but there are risks with where we are now. and the risks, the reality is even, the stagnation economically you were talking about, the persistence of child poverty, we know that is entrenched as part of the union. :, know that is entrenched as part of the union. . :, :, :, the union. i want to go to the audience. _ the union. i want to go to the audience, if _ the union. i want to go to the audience, if you _ the union. i want to go to the audience, if you don't mind. l the union. i want to go to the i audience, if you don't mind. the commission also says this is by far the most uncertain option. let's get

some hands up here. the gentleman here. :, , some hands up here. the gentleman here. . , ., ~ here. plaid cymru talked in their manifesto that _ here. plaid cymru talked in their manifesto that they _ here. plaid cymru talked in their manifesto that they wanted i manifesto that they wanted independence _ manifesto that they wanted independence and - manifesto that they wanted independence and to - manifesto that they wanted independence and tojoin i manifesto that they wanted i independence and to join the manifesto that they wanted _ independence and tojoin the customs union _ independence and tojoin the customs union how— independence and tojoin the customs union how do— independence and tojoin the customs union how do you _ independence and tojoin the customs union. how do you plan _ independence and tojoin the customs union. how do you plan on _ independence and tojoin the customs union. how do you plan on even i union. how do you plan on even achieving — union. how do you plan on even achieving that? _ union. how do you plan on even achieving that? find _ union. how do you plan on even achieving that?— union. how do you plan on even achieving that? and a point in the back there. _ achieving that? and a point in the back there, the _ achieving that? and a point in the back there, the lady? _ back there, the lady? i'm interested to know how plaid cymru _ i'm interested to know how plaid cymru is — i'm interested to know how plaid cymru is an— i'm interested to know how plaid cymru is an internationalist i i'm interested to know how plaid| cymru is an internationalist party -- as— cymru is an internationalist party -- as an — cymru is an internationalist party —— as an internationalist - cymru is an internationalist party —— as an internationalist party. cymru is an internationalist partyi —— as an internationalist party will hold _ —— as an internationalist party will hold westminster— —— as an internationalist party will hold westminster to— —— as an internationalist party will hold westminster to account i —— as an internationalist party will hold westminster to account on i —— as an internationalist party will hold westminster to account on a | hold westminster to account on a ceasefire — hold westminster to account on a ceasefire in — hold westminster to account on a ceasefire in gaza. _ ceasefire in gaza. the _ ceasefire in gaza. the gentleman i ceasefire in gaza. i the gentleman here? i think we are not going to decide welsh _ i think we are not going to decide welsh independence _ i think we are not going to decide welsh independence in— i think we are not going to decide welsh independence in this i i think we are not going to decide i welsh independence in this election, so i welsh independence in this election, so i would _ welsh independence in this election, so i would like — welsh independence in this election, so i would like to _ welsh independence in this election, so i would like to know _ welsh independence in this election, so i would like to know more - welsh independence in this election, so i would like to know more about l so i would like to know more about how we _ so i would like to know more about how we make — so i would like to know more about how we make wales' _ so i would like to know more about how we make wales' voice - how we make wales' voice heard, because _ how we make wales' voice heard, because every— how we make wales' voice heard, because every party— how we make wales' voice heard, because every party says - how we make wales' voice heard, because every party says we i how we make wales' voice heard, j because every party says we need how we make wales' voice heard, i because every party says we need to because every party says we need to be elected _ because every party says we need to be elected to— because every party says we need to be elected to hold _ because every party says we need to be elected to hold labour— because every party says we need to be elected to hold labour to- be elected to hold labour to account, _ be elected to hold labour to account, but _ be elected to hold labour to account, but how— be elected to hold labour to account, but how do - be elected to hold labour to account, but how do you i be elected to hold labour to account, but how do you do| be elected to hold labour to- account, but how do you do that? just by— account, but how do you do that? just by convincing _ account, but how do you do that? just by convincing them? - account, but how do you do that? just by convincing them? our- account, but how do you do that? i just by convincing them? our voices need _ just by convincing them? our voices need to— just by convincing them? our voices need to be — just by convincing them? our voices need to be heard. _ need to be heard. and _ need to be heard. and another- need to be heard. and another point need to be heard. i and another point here. and another point here. a question about the economy. what's the biggest _ a question about the economy. what's the biggest employer— a question about the economy. what's the biggest employer in— a question about the economy. what's the biggest employer in wales? - a question about the economy. what's the biggest employer in wales? i i the biggest employer in wales? i think— the biggest employer in wales? i think it _ the biggest employer in wales? i think it is — the biggest employer in wales? i think it is the — the biggest employer in wales? i think it is the nhs. _ the biggest employer in wales? i think it is the nhs. how- the biggest employer in wales? i think it is the nhs. how can i the biggest employer in wales? i think it is the nhs. how can we l think it is the nhs. how can we generate — think it is the nhs. how can we generate revenue, _ think it is the nhs. how can we generate revenue, businesses. generate revenue, businesses generating _ generate revenue, businesses generating can _ generate revenue, businesses generating can i _ generate revenue, businesses generating can i touch- generate revenue, businesses

generating can i touch on- generate revenue, businesses generating can i touch on as l generate revenue, businesses- generating can i touch on as many of those _ generating can i touch on as many of those as— generating can i touch on as many of those as possible? _ those as possible ? we _ those as possible? we have _ those as possible? we have massive i those as possible? - we have massive resources those as possible? _ we have massive resources to tap into, which is why we need the crown estate. we need to stand up for wales, and having played can be they will make sure wales is not ignored. one way to make sure we don't get what we want is to have no one asking for it. on gaza, you will know that plaid cymru put down a motion in the senedd last autumn. we need to stand together as an international community in the name of peace. that's very important to me. applause and on brexit, we are making it very clear in this election, we think the whole of the uk should join the customs union and the single market. it is just customs union and the single market. it isjust a no—brainer to me. why would we not do that? applause why would we not want to deal with some of the harm caused by brexit? it is not turning the clock back. i am pro—eu. i didn't get what i wanted and that referendum eight years ago, but at least let's try to reverse the harm. and on brexit, and a timescale for independence, we would have to rejoin the eu before independence?

no, not at all. all of this is up to the people of wales. that is the beauty. the people of wales. that is the beau . �* , the people of wales. that is the beau . . , . ., the people of wales. that is the beau .�* , . beauty. and i 'ust want to come back on this... can ijust press you on a timetable? working together across ireland, why have new independent countries? i want to press you in a timetable, because your predecessor adam price wanted a referendum by 2026, which was unrealistic, clearly. what about your timetable? are you talking about years, decades, a lifetime? i will say this. i would want wales to be independent by this evening if we could, because i believe... applause but it is not what i think that matters. i want to bring you with me, bring you with us. people say i can't support plaid cymru because i don't believe in independence. don't worry about that. support plaid cymru because you share our vision of how prosperous and fair and equal wales could be. we can make lots of decisions on the way to potentially

independence or not, and hopefully i will persuade you one day as well. but come with us on thatjourney, because hopefully you will think you can share our values. thank you very much. right, we will move on to our fourth question tonight. morgan berman—jones. morgan. what policies will plaid outline when it comesi to the threat of climate change? a whole host of policies. aiming high, i mean, we have to aim high in terms of net zero targets. we have to take actions that actually get us to take actions that actually get us to that point, on transportation, for example, but i think the one that excites me most is the sort of intertwining of our economic aspirations and our environmental obligations. i briefly mentioned why we want the crown estate to be devolved, so that we can fulfil or help fulfil our environmental obligations by tapping more into the natural resources, masses of it. we

have some of the biggest tidal ranges in the world, tidal flow that we can tap into. at the same time, you are building an economy for the future, and that's something that really excites me, being able to do both at the same time. let's go to the audience. i know the gentleman he had his hand up. plaid promise net zero by 2035. the report— plaid promise net zero by 2035. the report said — plaid promise net zero by 2035. the report said that _ plaid promise net zero by 2035. the report said that wales _ plaid promise net zero by 2035. the report said that wales is _ plaid promise net zero by 2035. the report said that wales is lagging - report said that wales is lagging behind _ report said that wales is lagging behind its — report said that wales is lagging behind its target _ report said that wales is lagging behind its target of _ report said that wales is lagging behind its target of 2050. - report said that wales is lagging behind its target of 2050. what| report said that wales is lagging. behind its target of 2050. what are your thoughts — behind its target of 2050. what are your thoughts on _ behind its target of 2050. what are your thoughts on that? _ behind its target of 2050. what are your thoughts on that? yes, - behind its target of 2050. what are your thoughts on that?— your thoughts on that? yes, and i come back— your thoughts on that? yes, and i come back to _ your thoughts on that? yes, and i come back to the _ your thoughts on that? yes, and i come back to the point, _ your thoughts on that? yes, and i come back to the point, set - your thoughts on that? yes, and i come back to the point, set your. your thoughts on that? yes, and i i come back to the point, set your bar high. 2035, yes, feels very ambitious, but i think we are in the midst of such an emergency, and plaid cymru put forward a motion that led... two years ago, i think, i lose track of time, which called for the declaring of a climate emergency in wales. if we are in an emergency, we have focus on that. do you think it is realistic, net zero by 20 35? the way the governments are going now, no. this is plaid's manifesto.

we are putting forward ideas we believe could move us on that journey quickly. if you were in power,... just transition. let's look at tata, green jobs. transition. let's look at tata, greenjobs. to blast furnaces green jobs. to blast furnaces will be closed, 3000 jobs in danger. tata are trying to go green and yet you are trying to go green and yet you are not backing them? taste are trying to go green and yet you are not backing them?— are trying to go green and yet you are not backing them? we have to get steel to are not backing them? we have to get steelto no are not backing them? we have to get steel to go green- _ are not backing them? we have to get steel to go green. it _ are not backing them? we have to get steel to go green. it really _ are not backing them? we have to get steel to go green. it really pains - steel to go green. it really pains me to see masses of investment in hydrogen steel, for example, an continental europe that we need to be investing in. i have been as plain as i can be in the future of steel. i think because of the failure to put enough on the table to save those jobs in port talbot, to save those jobs in port talbot, to save those jobs in port talbot, to save steel—making for strategic reasons for the uk, i think there should be a real consideration... but it is the uk's biggest single carbon emitter. surely they have to go green, the company would argue they are trying to do that, and you are against it? he. they are trying to do that, and you are against it?— are against it? no, absolutely we have to clean _ are against it? no, absolutely we have to clean up _ are against it? no, absolutely we have to clean up steel, _ are against it? no, absolutely we have to clean up steel, and - are against it? no, absolutely we have to clean up steel, and it - are against it? no, absolutely we have to clean up steel, and it is l have to clean up steel, and it is being cleaned up, but we have to do

it in a just way, and looking at that community where i was last week in port talbot and the need for us to look after those jobs plus strategically for the uk, the mind boggles that a uk prime minister of any party wouldn't be doing absolutely everything to keep steel—making, and absolutely making it more green. and should nuclear power be in the mix? ~ , ~ , and should nuclear power be in the mix? ~ , ,, , ., and should nuclear power be in the mix? ~ , ~' , ., ~ and should nuclear power be in the mix? , ., . ., mix? mix is the key word. we have generations — mix? mix is the key word. we have generations of _ mix? mix is the key word. we have generations of experience - mix? mix is the key word. we have generations of experience in - mix? mix is the key word. we have l generations of experience in nuclear into parts of wales. we don't think there should be anywhere beyond those two places where we develop nuclear, but as part of the mix, yes. but there is a lack of honesty here as well, i think. any new nuclear development in wales is decades away. we will continue working positively and concentrating now on those renewable projects that are under way and can be done. you talk about a lack of honesty. but as your policy honest? as a party, you oppose nuclear except where it exists already, and where it is useful to your party, may be? —— is your party on ischaemic that's as honest as you could possibly wish

us to be, surely? we are saying, let's have them here and not elsewhere. but is that sustainable? are you in favour or against nuclear power stations? in favour or against nuclear power stations? , .. , , stations? in the places where they are now, stations? in the places where they are now. yes- _ stations? in the places where they are now. yes- i— stations? in the places where they are now, yes. i have _ stations? in the places where they are now, yes. i have worked - stations? in the places where they are now, yes. i have worked very i are now, yes. i have worked very hard to try to get more development at ynys mon, but we only pursue those interests if they work for their communities, not for their own sake. we look at the green potential of nuclear generation, but also, can we make it work economically for us and mitigate against the challenges of building any project like that in a largely rural area? that's the kind of thing i have concentrated on for ten years or more. a quick word from the audience before our next question. i'd like to know how you will ensure this new— i'd like to know how you will ensure this new green _ i'd like to know how you will ensure this new green economy— i'd like to know how you will ensure this new green economy will- i'd like to know how you will ensure this new green economy will be - i'd like to know how you will ensure this new green economy will be a l this new green economy will be a fair and _ this new green economy will be a fairand caring— this new green economy will be a fair and caring economy- this new green economy will be a fair and caring economy as - this new green economy will be a fair and caring economy as well. i fair and caring economy as well. very— fair and caring economy as well. very briefty _ fair and caring economy as well. very briefty if _ fair and caring economy as well. very briefly if you _ fair and caring economy as well. very briefly if you will. - very briefly if you will. again, i would say it is about to just transition again. just transition could meanjobs just transition again. just transition could mean jobs at port talbot orjust in terms of supporting communities and the way

people move around from one place to another. we need to promote people moving onto public transport, but for that, we have to invest in public transport, perhaps using that hsz public transport, perhaps using that hs2 money, for instance. thanks very much. time for our next question. peter coughlin. what immigration policy would benefit wales? i what immigration policy? you know, one of the big issues of our time, and i have spoken in recent weeks about the need to use immigration in our favour. about the need to use immigration in ourfavour. on about the need to use immigration in our favour. on the about the need to use immigration in ourfavour. on the basic about the need to use immigration in our favour. on the basic principle, i am disgusted quite often about some of the attitudes that i hear when talking about the movement of people across the world. let's talk about people as humans. i think that's very, very important. applause but let's also see... can we take decisions here that could help us? one thing plaid cymru has put forward is to have the right

to vary these requirements in wales stop some people will say, you can't do that. well, they do within australia, in canada, for example, different thresholds on salaries and different... you want more migration to wales? 2022's net migration was 22,000 into wales. you want more? bringing it down to numbers i don't think particularly helps. but it bringing it down to numbers i don't think particularly helps.— think particularly helps. but it is about numbers, _ think particularly helps. but it is about numbers, isn't _ think particularly helps. but it is about numbers, isn't it? - think particularly helps. but it is about numbers, isn't it? it- think particularly helps. but it is about numbers, isn't it? it is. think particularly helps. but it is about numbers, isn't it? it is if. about numbers, isn't it? it is if ou about numbers, isn't it? it is if you think _ about numbers, isn't it? it is if you think of. — about numbers, isn't it? it is if you think of, for _ about numbers, isn't it? it is if you think of, for example, - about numbers, isn't it? it is if you think of, for example, in l about numbers, isn't it? it is if. you think of, for example, in the care sector, where we have shown that whilst wanting to attract more of our own young people into caring professions, we also need to bring people in to work in care homes and hospitals, and some of the visa changes that have been brought in by uk government recently on stopping family members coming with workers, that has led to a drop of 76% in visa applications in a sector where we need more, so we should be making those decisions ourselves, and for hire education too. by,

those decisions ourselves, and for hire education too.— hire education too. a point from this gentleman, _ hire education too. a point from this gentleman, and _ hire education too. a point from this gentleman, and then - hire education too. a point from this gentleman, and then over l hire education too. a point from - this gentleman, and then over there. how do you balance the skills deficit— how do you balance the skills deficit that — how do you balance the skills deficit that we _ how do you balance the skills deficit that we have _ how do you balance the skills deficit that we have got, - how do you balance the skills - deficit that we have got, needing to brin- deficit that we have got, needing to bring skitts— deficit that we have got, needing to bring skills in— deficit that we have got, needing to bring skills in that _ deficit that we have got, needing to bring skills in that we _ deficit that we have got, needing to bring skills in that we don't - deficit that we have got, needing to bring skills in that we don't have, . bring skills in that we don't have, against _ bring skills in that we don't have, against the — bring skills in that we don't have, against the educational _ bring skills in that we don't have, i against the educational performance wates— against the educational performance wales is— against the educational performance wales is currently— against the educational performance wales is currently performing - against the educational performance wales is currently performing on, i wales is currently performing on, for example. _ wales is currently performing on, for example, which— wales is currently performing on, for example, which is— wales is currently performing on, for example, which is why - wales is currently performing on, for example, which is why we - wales is currently performing on, i for example, which is why we have the skills— for example, which is why we have the skills deficit _ for example, which is why we have the skills deficit in _ for example, which is why we have the skills deficit in the _ for example, which is why we have the skills deficit in the first - the skills deficit in the first place? _ the skills deficit in the first place? we _ the skills deficit in the first place? we need _ the skills deficit in the first i place? we need immigration, the skills deficit in the first - place? we need immigration, but the skills deficit in the first _ place? we need immigration, but we need atso _ place? we need immigration, but we need also to— place? we need immigration, but we need also to ensure _ place? we need immigration, but we need also to ensure educational - need also to ensure educational levels _ need also to ensure educational levels for— need also to ensure educational levels for our _ need also to ensure educational levels for our children— need also to ensure educational levels for our children can - need also to ensure educational levels for our children can helpi need also to ensure educational i levels for our children can help get them _ levels for our children can help get them out _ levels for our children can help get them out of— levels for our children can help get them out of poverty. _ levels for our children can help get them out of poverty. find - levels for our children can help get them out of poverty.— them out of poverty. and the gentleman — them out of poverty. and the gentleman there? _ gentleman there? i broadly support immigration, but i feel as _ i broadly support immigration, but i feel as if— i broadly support immigration, but i feel as if london _ i broadly support immigration, but i feel as if london has _ i broadly support immigration, but i feel as if london has been - feel as if london has been the capital, — feel as if london has been the capital, like _ feel as if london has been the capital, like new— feel as if london has been the capital, like new york - feel as if london has been the capital, like new york has - feel as if london has been the - capital, like new york has become the capital, — capital, like new york has become the capital, because _ capital, like new york has become the capital, because of— capital, like new york has become the capital, because of its- capital, like new york has become the capital, because of its more i the capital, because of its more inclusive — the capital, because of its more inclusive nature. _ the capital, because of its more inclusive nature. so— the capital, because of its more inclusive nature. so we - the capital, because of its more inclusive nature. so we need i the capital, because of its more inclusive nature. so we need to| inclusive nature. so we need to attract — inclusive nature. so we need to attract talent _ inclusive nature. so we need to attract talent from _ inclusive nature. so we need to attract talent from the - inclusive nature. so we need to attract talent from the world, l inclusive nature. so we need to l attract talent from the world, so, yes _ yes i thank yes. - thank you yes. — thank you very much. yes, that inclusivity is very important, and for your question, it is identifying where we need those skills. one of the big skills gaps where i live in the north—west of wales is in hospitality. brexit hit us hard in places like llandudno,

for example, and in my constituency of ynys mon. we need to persuade our young people to choose those professions, increase the skill level and interest in those areas, plus then identify how many we perhaps want to bring in through these changes if uk government is not going to do it for us. == these changes if uk government is not going to do it for us.— not going to do it for us. -- visa changes- — changes. how would you tackle illegal immigration? orshould how would you tackle illegal immigration? or should everybody be allowed in? we have obligations we should be very serious about under the 1951 refugee laws. internationally, that is part of ourjobs. as an internationalist, i believe in fulfilling our international obligations. let's be honest, the conservatives have made a complete hash of running the processing system. let's get that up and running. the backlog make it impossible to run now. you have to distinguish between legal and illegal migration. right. a final point, just down here. one of your government obligations to uphold _ one of your government obligations to uphold the — one of your government obligations to uphold the human— one of your government obligations to uphold the human rights- one of your government obligations to uphold the human rights of- one of your government obligations to uphold the human rights of every single _ to uphold the human rights of every single person — to uphold the human rights of every single person in _ to uphold the human rights of every single person in this _ to uphold the human rights of every single person in this country- to uphold the human rights of every single person in this country under. single person in this country under the human — single person in this country under the human rights— single person in this country under the human rights act. _ single person in this country under the human rights act. people - single person in this country under. the human rights act. people fleeing war and _ the human rights act. people fleeing war and violence _ the human rights act. people fleeing war and violence and _ the human rights act. people fleeing war and violence and torture - the human rights act. people fleeing war and violence and torture are - war and violence and torture are some _ war and violence and torture are some of— war and violence and torture are some of the _ war and violence and torture are some of the most _ war and violence and torture are some of the most vulnerable - war and violence and torture are - some of the most vulnerable people in the _ some of the most vulnerable people in the country. — some of the most vulnerable people in the country, and _

some of the most vulnerable people in the country, and currently, - some of the most vulnerable people in the country, and currently, their. in the country, and currently, their human— in the country, and currently, their human rights— in the country, and currently, their human rights are _ in the country, and currently, their human rights are not _ in the country, and currently, their human rights are not being - in the country, and currently, their| human rights are not being upheld. what _ human rights are not being upheld. what will— human rights are not being upheld. what will you — human rights are not being upheld. what will you do— human rights are not being upheld. what will you do to _ human rights are not being upheld. what will you do to support - human rights are not being upheld. what will you do to support them? | what will you do to support them? very briefly. — what will you do to support them? very briefly. i'm _ what will you do to support them? very briefly, i'm afraid. _ very briefly, i'm afraid. i don't think i need to say anything. i agree with you. applause 0k, applause ok, well, thank you very much. thank you very much, rhun ap iorwerth, thank you very much, and that is it. our time is thank you very much, and that is it. ourtime is up, thank you very much, and that is it. our time is up, and remember, thank you very much, and that is it. ourtime is up, and remember, you can see a full list of who is standing in this election on the bbc website, and don't forget, you can catch up with last week's question time leaders special on iplayer now, with the leaders of the conservatives, also labour, liberal democrats and the snp too. and the leader of reform uk and the co—leader of the green party will take questions on friday night in the last of this series at 8pm on bbc one. so, it is over to you. from all of us in cardiff tonight,

good night. nos dda.

this is bbc news. the headlines: princess anne is recovering in hospital, after sustaining a minor head injury and concussion while out walking on her estate. the prime minister and labour leader are grilled in the sun's election showdown. we'll have the latest from the spin room. a leading think tank, the ifs, accuses the main parties of a "conspiracy of silence" over how they'd fund their election pledges on the economy.

the israeli defence minister arrives in washington to hold talks that he calls "critical for the future of the war". and a court has heard how a security guard plotted to abduct, rape and murder the tv personality holly willoughby. hello. i'm kasia madera. princess anne is in hospital, after suffering a minor head injury and concussion while out walking in the grounds of her country home. the incident — which took place yesterday — is thought to have involved a horse. the princess, who's 73, is being kept under observation "as a precaution" and is expected to make a full recovery. here's our senior royal correspondent, daniela relph. just over a week ago, trooping the colour. the princess royal was on horseback,

where she loved to be.