voice-over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. israel's military assault on gaza has lasted almost nine months, and there seems little prospect of it ending any time soon. international diplomats are pushing a phased ceasefire formula, but the israeli government and hamas have staked out positions which remain unbridgeable. for the population of gaza, for the israeli hostages still held in captivity, it means no relief from their prolonged trauma. my guest is the chief palestinian diplomat in london, husam zomlot. is there any chink of light

in all this darkness? husam zomlot, welcome to hardtalk. thank you, stephen. you are a diplomat, but as this conflict in gaza passes its nine months, does it feel to you like this is a conflict entirely beyond the reach of diplomacy? it is a conflict that is within the reach of diplomacy, of common sense, of international law, of our very universal values. but it's a dismal failure of international diplomacy and international order

like never before. i believe the post—world war ii global order is under the most existential threat and stress test ever. that's why we established rules. that's exactly why we decided to establish a security council, to prevent such wars. and then we set up rules should wars happen. and then we established the internationaljudicial system should these rules be violated. but so far, for nine months, israel has been allowed to literally demolish, decimate not only gaza and the people of gaza and their infrastructure, but decimate all these rules and also get the help of its friends so it is shielded from any accountability. so definitely it is within diplomacy, definitely it is within the remit of the international system. but there is such a lack of international leadership at the moment. yeah, you've raised all sorts of different questions there. i just want to begin on the ground in gaza. you have family members in gaza. you know gaza very well.

you're in touch with gaza very often. does it seem to you that with all of the efforts being made to improve the humanitarian situation on the ground, albeit while the israeli military operations continue, is that having any effect? is there any lightening of the situation on the ground injust pure humanitarian terms? it's way more worse than when it even started, and that was already apocalyptic. the situation is much worse now, much worse because people see no horizon, no hope, and they're still killed in mass numbers. starvation is back. i'm sure you're following the numbers already. 33 children died of late, especially in the north. people are still asked to evacuate. still, they are forced out of their homes — not once, not twice, multiple times. it's carnage. as an outsider, one always looks for chinks of light. if there are chinks of light, perhaps one is that the israelis say that their intensive assault

on rafah, with all of the refugees, the displaced people who are in rafah, that is coming to an end. and at the other end of the strip, there are some reports that the desperate humanitarian situation in parts of the north of gaza isn't quite as bad as it was. yeah, but the israelis want to turn gaza into an open killing field for as long as it takes, so they might lower the intensity having killed and maimed 120,000 — mostly women and children — having literally decimated 70% of gaza's homes, 80% of gaza's schools, 90% of gaza's hospitals and 100% of gaza's universities. and now they are talking about low intensity. unfortunately, what israel means here is a continuation of the same atrocious aggression, but through different means. that's it. netanyahu has made it absolutely clear. israel has made it absolutely clear.

they see no end in sight for this aggression. you talk of the scale of civilian losses. now, some of the figures obviously have come from the hamas—run health ministry. the israelis dispute some of the specific figures. nonetheless, the losses are unimaginably high. what we heard in leaked emails — purportedly sent from yahya sinwar, the leader of hamas inside gaza, to hamas colleagues in doha — what we heard were some pretty extraordinary words. these were published in the wall streetjournal. we can't verify them independently ourselves, but nonetheless, the report suggested sinwar had said the scale of these civilian losses in gaza should be seen as necessary sacrifices. how did you respond to that phrase? i haven't seen such leaked letters, and i'm not going to comment on this. all what i can tell you is that there is nothing thatjustifies

the mass murder of children. you're talking about more than 15,000 children. never before in the history of mankind such atrocities took place in real time right in front of the world. everybody�*s receiving all these images in their screens, so i don't want to engage in something i haven't seen. but should such... but it really is important to understand the mindset, both of the leaders of hamas — because hamas is a key protagonist in this conflict — also, i think, to understand the mindset of people like you, because i've already said you have family members in gaza. yourfamily, your extended family has suffered terrible losses in the last eight, nine months. and when it comes to those losses, again, the leaked words from sinwar suggest that he told another hamas colleague — leader ismail haniyeh, who's lost family members —

he said that these losses, "infuse life into the veins of our nation, "prompting it to rise to its glory and honour." is there any part of you that can recognise that kind of justification for the massive loss of life? it's israel that has done this massive loss of life, stephen, so let's not flip it upside down and follow some "alleged" leaked papers. so nothing that israel has done since 7 october, nothing that israel has been doing before 7 october, is justified by any standards. and children should not be part of this. children should not be part of even a liberation strategy. children and women, ourfamilies are there, so political factions, political parties, militant groups are there to defend them, to help them, to protect them. the thing is, we know what triggered this particular round of terrible conflict. it was those hamas attacks on october 7, so i'm trying to make sense, all of this time later, trying to make sense

of where we go from here in terms of how palestinians now feel about possibilities to end the conflict. the israelis say it's got to end with the elimination of hamas as a fighting force and a politicalforce in hamas. do you believe that hamas is anywhere near being degraded, even eliminated, in gaza? before that, stephen, i think maybe you and the bbc and others think that it all started on 7 october... i didn't say it all started on october 7. there's no way i would ever say that. this whole situation is... it's a conflict that i'm very well aware has lasted for many decades. this is a situation of extermination, and the extermination has been lasting for a long time. extermination in 1917 here and the cancellation of our people. extermination in i9li8 and the ethnic cleansing of two—thirds of our people. extermination by the occupation, the colonial occupation since 1967 and the state of apartheid, and now genocide. to reduce it...

context is important. no, no, no, it's not important. context is everything. i used my words very carefully. i said this "round" of conflict was triggered by the hamas attack on southern israel on october 7. nobody, i think, can dispute that. so the question now for you — as somebody who is not connected to hamas, but is a representative of the plo and the palestinian authority — the question is this. do you believe that hamas's control of power in military capacity in gaza has been severely degraded? could it be eliminated? i'm not a military expert, stephen, and i cannot comment on this. all what i can tell you is to assume that hamas, or any palestinian group for that matter, is the cause of the conflict is truly, truly crazy. they are the outcome of the conflict, and hamas is a newcomer. we have had many palestinian groups.

so long as you have the political situation we are in, so long there is oppression, there will be groups. so to focus on hamas and its military capability is really missing the point. and, you know, such...such groups have ideas and they have follow—ship and they have support. so you cannot bombard ideas by rockets... right, you're very, very vocal in your demand that mr netanyahu and the people around him be held to account for what they have done. you talk about the need to respect international law and to get justice. yes. do you apply the same rules to hamas's leaders? no. we have the chief prosecutor of the international criminal court seeking arrest warrants, indictments against three key leaders of hamas — yahya sinwar, ismail haniyeh and mohammed deif.

now, two of them believed still to be in gaza. do you want to see them arrested? do you want to see them face an international court? i want to see international law and international judicial system applied on all equally, yes. and we, the state of palestine, have gone to the icc. we have signed the rome statute, and we have said that the international court ofjustice and the international criminal court, the icc, have full jurisdiction over the land of palestine, the occupied land of the state of palestine, and should immediately start investigating all war crimes committed on our land from 19... ..from the year 2014, when israel killed 1,464 palestinian civilians — remember — in that war, and we wanted the icc to investigate. there is a "but". allow me for the "but". but who is obstructing us? who is obstructing us? only last week, the uk government... the uk government sends an intervention at the icc saying that palestine has nojurisdiction,

you should not proceed with arresting netanyahu and gallant. so, the west and the double standards is what's obstructing the application of internationaljustice on all parties, not us. ok, but let's just stick with your view of what represents international justice and who you feel should be held to account. you say to me, yes, you want everybody accused to stand trial, to be held to account. and let's be mindful that the icc chief prosecutor alleges that these hamas leaders — key leaders of hamas — are potentially responsible, suspected of extermination, murder, rape, sexual violence, hostage—taking, acts of torture. this is a very long and terrible list. why is it, given all of that and your desire to see accountability, that the plo is seeking to draw together hamas and fatah to reconcile all the factions, and to recognise that hamas

will have a future role in any palestinian state? how can you possibly work with these people? because hamas is not an imported thing. it's not an imported phenomenon. but their leadership is accused of the most egregious war crimes. there is difference between acts and individuals and between political movements and political parties and groupings and militant groups. in the end, they are part of our socialfabric. they are part of our national scene, but they are not... you want to... but they are not... you want to work with a group which is led by people currently suspected... they are not part of our political system. they are not part of that... but you want to draw the... to be part of our political system, there are requirements, and that's why we have the dialogue. and, yes, we should have such dialogue to make sure that we all adhere to the very same commitments and responsibilities, including the firm commitment to international law. when there is talk about who will run gaza, when this terrible conflict finally ends — and, ultimately, at some point, it will end,

you are quite clear in your mind, are you, that these people from hamas, the leadership of which stands accused right now of the most egregious crimes, they will be part, in your view, of the future entity running gaza? maybe the west bank as well, i don't know how far you would take this. that will be up to the palestinian people, not to you and i. they will have to decide who is in government. we do have one central legitimate government. it was formed only very recently, that government has three mandates, stephen. the first is the unity of our geography, of our land. that is gaza and the west bank and eastjerusalem, the unity of our political system — that's the first task. the second is the huge, massive task of reconstruction and rebuilding and humanitarian aid. and thirdly is, in due course, convene national elections. so, we have that government. only that government is in charge of the entire area of palestine. that government

is made of technocrats with the full endorsement and support of the plo. so, we don't lack governance, we don't lack a central government. and an address — the issue of hamas becoming part of our national elections will be decided... are you sure...? ..will be decided later by our people. are you not playing directly into the hands of prime minister benjamin netanyahu? his message to the world — in particular, to the americans and others who are key players in the diplomacy, is — we cannot possibly hand control to the palestinian authority in gaza as an interim measure, because the palestinian authority ultimately is seeking to do deals with hamas — "the very people who have killed our people, "and you want us to invite them to take over." that's not what netanyahu is saying, stephen. netanyahu is saying, "i am not going to allow "for the palestinian national authority "to come back to gaza, period. "i will not see a fatahstan. that is fatah, period."

he knows that the plo and the palestine national front are the ones fighting for liberation and struggling for independence. and he knows it's the antidote of his own agenda, right? and he's been, as you may have been following, withholding our funds, our revenues, from almost collapsing the pa. only last week, his cabinet announced so many measures that literally would completely undermine the palestinian national institutions in the west bank. so, no, netanyahu is not really concerned about hamas being part of... to the contrary. he just doesn't want to see any resemblance of palestinian national independence... i guess what... ..which is represented by the palestinian national institutions — that's the plo — and the palestinian government. i guess what we all see right now is that if one looks at independent opinion polls conducted by palestinians inside the palestinian territories, we see that the palestinian authority

is sinking in terms of its popularity, its approval ratings, its credibility amongst palestinian people, and we see that hamas is much more popular. you guys, right now, are seen as, frankly, by many palestinians as collaborators with israel. that's not accurate. what is really accurate, what is really unpopular, stephen, is the peace process, is diplomacy, is compromise and concessions. i cannot blame our people because we have championed the plo, has championed the peace process over the course of 30 years. and this peace process has become israel's trojan horse to quadruple their colonial settlements, to suffocate the west bank out of life, and to do what they're doing in gaza. and, therefore, what is really unpopular is the method, is the strategy, is the vision that we have endorsed for all these years. the reality is that even as — and we've talked a lot about gaza —

but in the west bank, even as we've seen 500 palestinians killed in the west bank since october 7, many of them killed by the israeli military, or some of them killed byjewish settlers in the west bank. even as that is happening, the palestinian authority is still, day after day after day, cooperating with the idf, with the israeli military, on security arrangements across the west bank. and many palestinians see that as the ultimate symbol of the degree to which the pa has become a collaborator organisation. is that going to stop? so, make up your mind, stephen. is the problem the pa going to bring hamas on board, or the problem is the pa is collaborating... the two are... make up your mind. no, my mind... crosstalk let netanyahu make... ..palestinian people deeply, deeply resent your continued links to israel and its military occupation authority. at the same time, you have a fundamental weakness, which means you can't make

a stand against hamas, because you know that the palestinian people won't tolerate it. that's true, that's why we have been engaged in a different strategy, which is a recognition of the state of palestine. and you have seen of late the wave of recognitions by major european countries that includes spain, ireland and norway, slovenia and others. you're a diplomat, i know it matters to you, but does that matter to the people who are living in gaza and the west bank today? does that really make any meaningful difference to them? absolutely. the lack of it for all these years is what led us where we are today. the whole logic of the last 30 years, that the end game is really not decided and vague, has allowed israel to deal with it as a grab... ..land grab and what have you, and look at the results. we understand that recognition bilateral or... i mean, unilateral recognition on its own will not do. but it's an important step. ask me why. because of the clarity that we have been lacking, because it levels the field. for many years, we were hearing london and washington, israel and the palestinians. you have been saying this for 30 years, stephen. israel and the palestinians.

it's about time we say israel and palestine, with very well defined borders, very well defined principles, and, therefore, any talks in the future is only about minor modalities and legalities. hang on... and most importantly of all that, it's an inalienable right. this is our right that has been long overdue. and add to that... but i'm talking... ..a recognition... you're talking rights and principles. i'm talking practical diplomacy. a recognition by the uk also. right, ok. after 107 years of cancelling... that hasn't come yet. it would have to come. so you say. a recognition by the uk is also an admission by the uk, an admission by britain that it has failed to cancel the palestinian people 107 years ago. we are here, we exist on our land and we are, with all this, continuing with our struggle. so it is an important part of the strategy. hang on, let me... multilateralism is an important part of the strategy. international accountability, icc and icj is an important part of the strategy. international solidarity and this unprecedented, uh, activism, and really doing what we did... hang on.

..what the world did with south africa, the anti—apartheid movement, suffocating oxygen... ..sucking oxygen out of israel's occupation and colonisation. let me stop you there, because i understand — you're a veteran diplomat and it matters to you to get these new levels of recognition, but you've also worked in washington. you know that this diplomatic field, in the end, is dominated by the united states. you see that, right now, the biden administration is still sending its weapons to israel, still says that, fundamentally, the united states has israel's back. and what we also see is that, come november, there is a very, very real possibility that donald trump will be back in the white house. surely everything you see about america today tells you that all the diplomatic gains that you're talking about won't make a blind bit of difference. america is stronger with israel than ever. i'm sure you're following what is happening in the us. i mean, also, there is the other side of the coin. i mean, unprecedented change

in the public opinion, particularly among the youth and all communities, the black lives matter, thejewish communities, all what have you. you've seen the incumbents, which is historic, the first time in the us since 1968. these things happen only once in a few generations. and when we follow the us and when we go back to history, we remember that the us was the latecomer, the last comer, the reagan administration of being anti—apartheid in south africa. but then they were literally pressured by their own people and by the rest of the international community. and that is what is happening now. so, yes, the us remains to be the backer, the enabler of the israeli genocide as we speak. but this is changing. you use the word "genocide". that's of course, being tested at the international court ofjustice, absolutely and vehemently denied by israel. in a sense, the passion you've just shown is one key indicator that, nine months on, the argument hasn't really changed. i asked at the very beginning of this interview

whether there are any glimmers of light in all the darkness. i'm not sure we've established there are any. there are many glimmers of hope. i mean, such a nation, to go through such a thing, it's genocide. you know when it's genocide? when every single family in gaza has been affected, when every single family in the west bank, by the way, is affected, because there's a slow genocide there. during this most horrible period, to see your people, the heroism, the humanity, to see the doctors still operating, miracle — miracle operations on children, to see our teachers still building these online platforms so they can teach their kids in tents, to see the dignity of the nation and to see the dignity of our people in the west bank and in the refugee camps everywhere around the region. and to see the outpouring, unprecedented support. did you follow what happened in the uk? it's unprecedented. not once since the anti—apartheid movement a cause has been receiving the love and the support. i am so inspired, stephen,

wherever i go in your country. there is a gap between the public opinion and the government. but the public opinion here — 80% with recognition, 75% with immediate ceasefire and 70—something percent with arms embargo. so, of course, there are glimpses of hope to turn this international energy... and that is where we're going to have to end it. husam zomlot, i have to stop you there. thanks for being on hardtalk. hello there. not much change to the weather as we move into tuesday. in fact, the upcoming week will remain pretty unsettled, i think, with low pressure always nearby.

it will be breezy, even turning windier across northern areas by the end of the week. some rain at times, mainly in the north and the west, and it will remain on the cool side for earlyjuly. this ridge of high pressure, though, bringing quite a bit of dry weather, i think, on tuesday. we'll start off with quite a bit of sunshine around in northern, central and western areas. more cloud for eastern england, a few spots of rain — that rain will tend to ease down. and then as we head into the afternoon, skies will turn cloudy again as the temperatures rise a little bit, and we'll see some patchy rain pushing into western scotland, mainly through the afternoon. again, disappointing temperatures, 13 to maybe 19 or 20 degrees across the south. so i think it should stay mostly dry for wimbledon on tuesday — temperatures around 20 degrees — but with low pressure moving in on wednesday, i think there's a greater chance of seeing some disruption to play with temperatures also at around 18 degrees. so as you move out of tuesday into tuesday night, we start to see this low—pressure system moving in, bringing thicker cloud, outbreaks of rain and stronger winds.

i think the far southeast will stay dry until we reach the morning period, but because of the cloud, the rain, and southwesterly winds, i think it'll be a slightly milder night for all. so wednesday, we have this area of low pressure and its weather front crossing the country. it'll be a breezy day for most and a cloudy one. i think cloudy from the word go, outbreaks of rain splashing their way from west to east. i think it stays quite wet across northern and western scotland through the day. we could see something a little bit drier perhaps into the afternoon across eastern areas, maybe skies brightening up out west, certainly for northern ireland, but a breezy, even blustery day to come for all areas — these are mean wind speeds. temperatures disappointing for earlyjuly at 12 to 17 or 18 degrees across the south. so that's wednesday out. as we move through thursday, this area of low pressure will bring even stronger northwesterly winds to the country, most of the rain across the north. and then for friday into the start of the weekend, could see another area of low pressure hurtling across the uk to bring another spell

of wet and windy weather. so, yes, an unsettled outlook for the end of the week. most of the rain in the north and the west. there will be a little bit of sunshine at times in the south and the east.

live from london, this is bbc news. joe biden criticises the us supreme court's decision to grant trump partial immunity from criminal prosecution. hurricane beryl hits several caribbean islands, causing extensive damage and killing at least one person. rishi sunak denies having given up on the general election despite talking up the possibility of a labour super—majority. hello. i'm sally bundock. we start in the us where president biden has criticised the supreme court after it said that donald trump and other