a lot in recent decades, but i often say to people, joss naylor really is the last of his kind. you know, he was born and made and shaped within wasdale here. it's a sad day, really, and i don't think we'll ever see the likes ofjoss naylor ever again. mark mcalindon, bbc news. time for a look at the weather. here's elizabeth rizzini. this programme continues on bbc one.

the blue screen of death, what does the worldwide windows crash tell us about how vulnerable we are to network fails?— about how vulnerable we are to network fails? and digging in or caettin network fails? and digging in or getting out? — network fails? and digging in or getting out? tonight _ network fails? and digging in or getting out? tonight the - network fails? and digging in or i getting out? tonight the president insists he is fighting on next week. if he doesn't, will his vice president kamala harris get the nod?

good evening and welcome to newsnight, the home of insights and interviews. our panel tonight — and it is almost a miracle they're here amid all the cancellations and chaos of the day — kirsty buchanan, former aide to theresa may and liz truss, who now hosts the podcast whitehall sources. stephen bush, the associate editor and columnist for the financial times. and nick is here, as ever. before today, you had probably never heard of crowdstrike, the company in texas that pushes security updates for microsoft windows. they are supposed to keep our computer systems safe. instead, they led us into one of the the biggest it meltdowns in history. there are millions of people around the world who have spent most of the day staring at a blank blue screen. heaven knows what the cost of it will be.

# didn't even really wanna go # but if you get me out, you get a show # there's so many bodies on the floor # so baby we should go and add some more # are you down, d—d—down, d—d—down, d—d—down, down # down, d—d—down, d—d—down, d—d—down, down # everywhere i look are people's hands # thrown up in the air to help them dance # come on, baby, catch me if you can # i know you don't have any other plans # are you down, d—d—down, d—d—down, d—d—down, down # down, d—d—down, d—d—down, d—d—down, down

# are you down, d—d—down, d—d—down, d—d—down, down messy, wasn't it? with us live on the programme tonight, one of britain's most eminent computer scientists. sir nigel shadbolt who co—founded the open data institute with tim berners—lee. he's a professor of computer science at oxford and previously worked as the information adviser to the government. hello. how much of a wake—up call was this? it hello. how much of a wake-up call was this? , . , , , hello. how much of a wake-up call wasthis? ,. , , , .,~ , was this? it is a pretty big wake-up call and it has _ was this? it is a pretty big wake-up call and it has come _ was this? it is a pretty big wake-up call and it has come from _ was this? it is a pretty big wake-up call and it has come from a - was this? it is a pretty big wake-up call and it has come from a rather. call and it has come from a rather unusual source this is software that normally keeps us safe. it is end point protection, looking out for viruses all the time, but it was the problem, it crashed the system. it's almost as if it was a digital

autoimmune disorder. what we are doing now is understanding what that connectivity of all those systems that have been affected is, but literally, the blue screen of death fell over and many other dependent systems fell over because of that. although it may look like a relatively simple recovery process, though time will tell, there will be lots of machines that will take a long time to get out so recovery could be a gradual process. so it's not 'ust a could be a gradual process. so it's not just a case _ could be a gradual process. so it's notjust a case of— could be a gradual process. so it's notjust a case of turning the - notjust a case of turning the computer on and off, it could take some time?— computer on and off, it could take some time? , some time? the bigger the firm, the more effort — some time? the bigger the firm, the more effort they _ some time? the bigger the firm, the more effort they have _ some time? the bigger the firm, the more effort they have got _ some time? the bigger the firm, the more effort they have got to - some time? the bigger the firm, the more effort they have got to put - more effort they have got to put into rectifying this with their big it firms. the initial suggestions about detecting a particular file, removing it and rebooting, yes, although it may turn out to be more complicated than that for various ways of how the software is implemented. but forsmall ways of how the software is implemented. but for small medium enterprises, it's a problem. and for

those who don't necessarily maintain the most up—to—date it estate, it could be a problem. bf; the most up-to-date it estate, it could be a problem.— the most up-to-date it estate, it could be a problem. by all accounts, as ou could be a problem. by all accounts, as you say. — could be a problem. by all accounts, as you say. it — could be a problem. by all accounts, as you say. it was— could be a problem. by all accounts, as you say, it was only _ could be a problem. by all accounts, as you say, it was only a _ could be a problem. by all accounts, as you say, it was only a short - as you say, it was only a short string of codes so what happens if someone were able to put much more complex piece of malware into that system? complex piece of malware into that s stem? ., , ., , ., system? that is of course what cybersecurity — system? that is of course what cybersecurity is _ system? that is of course what cybersecurity is all _ system? that is of course what cybersecurity is all about, - system? that is of course what cybersecurity is all about, and l cybersecurity is all about, and in the uk we are fortunate to have the cyber security centre. real expertise. normally they are on the lookout for bad actors, nation states or actors within nation states or actors within nation states who are trying to attack our it infrastructure, but it is possible to imagine that you could inject some of these faults into the software that is meant to keep us safe so that is something we have to be vigilant about, but this is a new class of failure. the notion that we have to pay serious attention to the very software that is meant to look after us and they are the diversity

of available software systems. the balance is between the scale of getting the systems out there and exploiting scale in the industry, and having just perhaps too view solutions. fortunately not all of our critical systems rely on windows, there are other solutions too. , ., , , ., windows, there are other solutions too. ,., _ . ,.,, too. obviously there are questions for crowdstrike _ too. obviously there are questions for crowdstrike but also _ too. obviously there are questions for crowdstrike but also for - for crowdstrike but also for microsoft on which many of us rely. how much due dividends do they do on third—party providers and the patches they are providing? i5 third-party providers and the patches they are providing? is early da s to patches they are providing? is early days to understand _ patches they are providing? is early days to understand just _ patches they are providing? is early days to understand just how - patches they are providing? is early days to understand just how this . days to understand just how this piece of code came to be uploaded and do so much damage. there will be and do so much damage. there will be a very forensic analysis of this. i suspect it will be a combination of human error and a lack of diligence, possibly because the code itself was very routine. so you need to systems which are always reflecting on the quality of testing, on closed environments where your software can really be put through its paces

before it is released. but in the world of cyber threat, the threats evolve so fast that the tendency is to want to deploy fast too. so evolve so fast that the tendency is to want to deploy fast too. 50 it evolve so fast that the tendency is to want to deploy fast too.- to want to deploy fast too. so it is time sensitive. _ to want to deploy fast too. so it is time sensitive. obviously - to want to deploy fast too. so it is time sensitive. obviously we - to want to deploy fast too. so it is time sensitive. obviously we are i to want to deploy fast too. so it is i time sensitive. obviously we are all interconnected, because every country has suffered, so what can the uk government do? this is a piece of software put in in texas. is there anything we can do in our country singularly to protect our systems? country singularly to protect our s stems? ,., , country singularly to protect our s stems? , ., , systems? the point is we are very dependent — systems? the point is we are very dependent and — systems? the point is we are very dependent and interconnected, i dependent and interconnected, particularly with the enterprise servers that are running the systems that were susceptible today, and we saw it across sectors because the sectors themselves are transnational. aviation is a great example of where we have seen real problems. the thing we will be alert to is putting real pressure on suppliers to understand that they are validating and verifying that the software they issue is up to scratch. there will be a lot of

lessons learned. it will be a classic textbook example for years to come for people studying. you work in the _ to come for people studying. you work in the field _ to come for people studying. you work in the field of ai which is fast advancing. it strikes me if this is where we are now, as these models become more advanced and malware is developed quicker, we need to get our act together. that is one of the _ need to get our act together. that is one of the great _ need to get our act together. trust is one of the great challenges. it is one of the great challenges. it is obviously the case that we are putting our it systems into very many critical context in our society and infrastructure, and we need to think about where those vulnerabilities might exist in the systems that control the systems, and ai is a great promising technology but we have to understand its limitations. the ai safety institute which was set up here in the uk is very much aware of what the uk is very much aware of what the vulnerabilities are but we have got to get that sense of costs and benefits, strengths and weaknesses really well understood. within

government, which is keen on deploying these technologies, but we have to understand how we make the system is resilient. but have to understand how we make the system is resilient.— system is resilient. but presumably intergovernmental _ system is resilient. but presumably intergovernmental as _ system is resilient. but presumably intergovernmental as well. - system is resilient. but presumably intergovernmental as well. we - system is resilient. but presumably| intergovernmental as well. we have the iaea nuclear, why do we not have an intergovernmental panel for computer systems and it on which we are so dependent?— are so dependent? there are standards — are so dependent? there are standards bodies _ are so dependent? there are standards bodies which - are so dependent? there are standards bodies which try i are so dependent? there arej standards bodies which try to involve at least agreement about how you decide and talk about the threats you face. one of the real problems in a fragmenting geopolitical context is that there is effectively a 24/7 war between states and actors within states on each of the cyber infrastructure, and when are we going to really move hard to restrain our state and some of the non—state actors within those states to attacking our essential infrastructure? that discussion about restraint seems one we are not

able to have, it is sort of taken for granted that this cyber digital warfare is a state of affairs we have to live with.— have to live with. really interesting, _ have to live with. really interesting, thank - have to live with. really interesting, thank you l have to live with. really l interesting, thank you for have to live with. really - interesting, thank you for coming have to live with. really _ interesting, thank you for coming in today. reportedly, the man in charge of crowdstrike lost nearly £250 million of his personal fortune today. here's his apology. and i want to start with saying we're deeply sorry for the impact we have caused to customers, to travellers, to anyone affected by this, including our company. so we know what the issue is, we're resolving it and have resolved the issue now. it's recovering systems that are out there. any of you suffer the repercussions of this today? i’m any of you suffer the repercussions of this today?— of this today? i'm afraid not, no, i was half hoping — of this today? i'm afraid not, no, i was half hoping i _ of this today? i'm afraid not, no, i was half hoping i would _ of this today? i'm afraid not, no, i was half hoping i would turn - of this today? i'm afraid not, no, i was half hoping i would turn on i of this today? i'm afraid not, no, i | was half hoping i would turn on my laptop and find i couldn't work today but it seemed to be working fine and the trains were working better than they normally do actually. better than they normally do actuall . ., n ., better than they normally do actuall . . a . ., , actually. pat mcfadden, the cabinet secreta , actually. pat mcfadden, the cabinet secretary. was _ actually. pat mcfadden, the cabinet secretary, was drafted _ actually. pat mcfadden, the cabinet secretary, was drafted into - actually. pat mcfadden, the cabinet secretary, was drafted into his i secretary, was drafted into his first cobra meeting today.

interestingly, the main item on the agenda _ interestingly, the main item on the agenda for— interestingly, the main item on the agenda for the cabinet this morning was what _ agenda for the cabinet this morning was what we were talking about last night, _ was what we were talking about last night, which is this extraordinary cabinet _ night, which is this extraordinary cabinet attended by volodymyr zelensky, the president of ukraine. as that— zelensky, the president of ukraine. as that was— zelensky, the president of ukraine. as that was taking place, this cobra meeting _ as that was taking place, this cobra meeting had to take place. that stands — meeting had to take place. that stands for— meeting had to take place. that stands for cabinet office briefing room _ stands for cabinet office briefing room a _ stands for cabinet office briefing room a where you have these crisis meetings _ room a where you have these crisis meetings with screens and all that kind of— meetings with screens and all that kind of stuff. that involved officials _ kind of stuff. that involved officials because pat mcfadden was sat in— officials because pat mcfadden was sat in the _ officials because pat mcfadden was sat in the cabinet room with volodymyr zelensky, sat in the cabinet room with volodymyrzelensky, but sat in the cabinet room with volodymyr zelensky, but pat mcfadden, the main cabinet minister running _ mcfadden, the main cabinet minister running the _ mcfadden, the main cabinet minister running the cabinet office, he came out and _ running the cabinet office, he came out and he — running the cabinet office, he came out and he did an interview with the bbc and _ out and he did an interview with the bbc and he — out and he did an interview with the bbc and he talked about how today was identifying the cause, putting in place _ was identifying the cause, putting in place a — was identifying the cause, putting in place a fix and then ending the inconvenience but what is interesting about this is this comes the day— interesting about this is this comes the day after aaron s hallett had some _ the day after aaron s hallett had some critical things to say about the uk's — some critical things to say about the uk's lack of preparedness for

them _ the uk's lack of preparedness for them covid—19 pandemic, talking about— them covid—19 pandemic, talking about the — them covid—19 pandemic, talking about the state failure, too much groupthink. —— groupthink. today was about— groupthink. —— groupthink. today was about the _ groupthink. —— groupthink. today was about the global failure and we are interdependent so maybe there are some _ interdependent so maybe there are some potential lessons to draw. kirsty, _ some potential lessons to draw. kirsty, you — some potential lessons to draw. kirsty, you worked in government circles, in different departments. was this ever a conversation? did they understand what the new and emerging threats were? i they understand what the new and emerging threats were?— they understand what the new and emerging threats were? i think one ofthe emerging threats were? i think one of the things _ emerging threats were? i think one of the things we _ emerging threats were? i think one of the things we have _ emerging threats were? i think one of the things we have seen - emerging threats were? i think one of the things we have seen today i emerging threats were? i think one | of the things we have seen today as a result of this is how behind the curve we are. we have had a kings speech this week with 39 bills in it. one of the ones that barely warranted a mention but i think we'll go much higher up the agenda now is the cyber security and resilience bill. we don't know an awful lot about watching that but it's going to have greater control for the regulator and more reporting

for the regulator and more reporting for companies so we get a much bigger picture and a better picture of where these cyber attacks are happening. the frightening thing about this digital dominoes we saw today was this was a huge and impactful accident, today was this was a huge and impactfulaccident, but we today was this was a huge and impactful accident, but we have hostile actors all the time in —— impacting and we have had attacks ourselves on the nhs in 2017 so we need to get to grips with this and we are behind the curve with it. this bill now will become front and centre of this battleground. i spent some of the afternoon reading the national risk register off the back of this. sleepless nights about what it can do to our critical infrastructure if we have a hostile attack. ,, , , ., , ., attack. stephen, it stands to reason that if ou attack. stephen, it stands to reason that if you are _ attack. stephen, it stands to reason that if you are overreliant _ attack. stephen, it stands to reason that if you are overreliant on one i that if you are overreliant on one system, then you are open to a single point of failure. what concerned me with the kings speech,

and plenty of others have talked about it, is when it comes to ai, the government says we will seek to establish the appropriate legislation in time. that sounds to me like shorthand for we are not really sure where we should be going with this. ., really sure where we should be going with this. . ., really sure where we should be going with this. ., ., ., , really sure where we should be going with this. . ., ., , ., with this. there are a variety of reasons why — with this. there are a variety of reasons why the _ with this. there are a variety of reasons why the kings - with this. there are a variety of reasons why the kings speech i with this. there are a variety of. reasons why the kings speech was silent _ reasons why the kings speech was silent on _ reasons why the kings speech was silent on the — reasons why the kings speech was silent on the expected _ reasons why the kings speech was silent on the expected ai - reasons why the kings speech was silent on the expected ai bill. i reasons why the kings speech wasi silent on the expected ai bill. they were already — silent on the expected ai bill. they were already two _ silent on the expected ai bill. they were already two bills _ silent on the expected ai bill. they were already two bills from - silent on the expected ai bill. they were already two bills from de i silent on the expected ai bill. they were already two bills from de sit i were already two bills from de sit in the _ were already two bills from de sit in the kings — were already two bills from de sit in the kings speech. _ were already two bills from de sit in the kings speech. it's - were already two bills from de sit in the kings speech. it's the i in the kings speech. it's the largest— in the kings speech. it's the largest kings— in the kings speech. it's the largest kings speech - in the kings speech. it's the largest kings speech since i in the kings speech. it's the i largest kings speech since 2005 so you need _ largest kings speech since 2005 so you need to — largest kings speech since 2005 so you need to wait _ largest kings speech since 2005 so you need to wait on _ largest kings speech since 2005 so you need to wait on one _ largest kings speech since 2005 so you need to wait on one of- you need to wait on one of these, but the _ you need to wait on one of these, but the other— you need to wait on one of these, but the other one _ you need to wait on one of these, but the other one is _ you need to wait on one of these, but the other one is that - you need to wait on one of these, j but the other one is that precisely because _ but the other one is that precisely because we — but the other one is that precisely because we are _ but the other one is that precisely because we are no _ but the other one is that precisely because we are no longer- but the other one is that precisely because we are no longer in i but the other one is that precisely because we are no longer in the l because we are no longer in the eu, there _ because we are no longer in the eu, there is— because we are no longer in the eu, there is an _ because we are no longer in the eu, there is an open— because we are no longer in the eu, there is an open question _ because we are no longer in the eu, there is an open question of- because we are no longer in the eu, there is an open question of do i because we are no longer in the eu, there is an open question of do we i there is an open question of do we want _ there is an open question of do we want the _ there is an open question of do we want the uk — there is an open question of do we want the uk to— there is an open question of do we want the uk to be _ there is an open question of do we want the uk to be a _ there is an open question of do we want the uk to be a frontrunneri there is an open question of do we| want the uk to be a frontrunner on al safety— want the uk to be a frontrunner on al safety or— want the uk to be a frontrunner on al safety or do _ want the uk to be a frontrunner on al safety or do we _ want the uk to be a frontrunner on al safety or do we want _ want the uk to be a frontrunner on al safety or do we want to - want the uk to be a frontrunner on al safety or do we want to be i want the uk to be a frontrunner on al safety or do we want to be an i ai safety or do we want to be an attractive — ai safety or do we want to be an attractive place _ ai safety or do we want to be an attractive place to _ ai safety or do we want to be an attractive place to research i ai safety or do we want to be an i attractive place to research because there _ attractive place to research because there is _ attractive place to research because there is ultimately— attractive place to research because there is ultimately a _ attractive place to research because there is ultimately a trade - attractive place to research because there is ultimately a trade off. i attractive place to research because there is ultimately a trade off. so. there is ultimately a trade off. so government— there is ultimately a trade off. so government is— there is ultimately a trade off. so government is still— there is ultimately a trade off. so government is still debating i there is ultimately a trade off. so government is still debating the i government is still debating the issues — government is still debating the issues one _ government is still debating the issues. one of— government is still debating the issues. one of the _ government is still debating the issues. one of the problems- government is still debating the issues. one of the problems is. government is still debating the i issues. one of the problems is that although— issues. one of the problems is that although we — issues. one of the problems is that although we understand _ issues. one of the problems is that although we understand the - issues. one of the problems is that although we understand the policyl although we understand the policy over roads — although we understand the policy over roads or—

although we understand the policy over roads or rail, _ although we understand the policy over roads or rail, key— although we understand the policy over roads or rail, key bits - although we understand the policy over roads or rail, key bits of- over roads or rail, key bits of physical— over roads or rail, key bits of physical infrastructure, i over roads or rail, key bits of physical infrastructure, are l over roads or rail, key bits of. physical infrastructure, are the stuff _ physical infrastructure, are the stuff of — physical infrastructure, are the stuff of politics _ physical infrastructure, are the stuff of politics and _ physical infrastructure, are the stuff of politics and need i physical infrastructure, are the stuff of politics and need to i physical infrastructure, are the stuff of politics and need to be i stuff of politics and need to be debated — stuff of politics and need to be debated between _ stuff of politics and need to be debated between political- stuff of politics and need to be i debated between political parties, we still— debated between political parties, we still kind — debated between political parties, we still kind of— debated between political parties, we still kind of tree _ debated between political parties, we still kind of tree digital- we still kind of tree digital infrastructure _ we still kind of tree digital infrastructure like - we still kind of tree digital infrastructure like it - we still kind of tree digital infrastructure like it is i we still kind of tree digital. infrastructure like it is some we still kind of tree digital- infrastructure like it is some kind of thing — infrastructure like it is some kind of thing a — infrastructure like it is some kind of thing a hit _ infrastructure like it is some kind of thing a bit beyond _ infrastructure like it is some kind of thing a bit beyond politics- infrastructure like it is some kind of thing a bit beyond politics that should _ of thing a bit beyond politics that should only— of thing a bit beyond politics that should only he _ of thing a bit beyond politics that should only be discussed - of thing a bit beyond politics that should only be discussed by- of thing a bit beyond politics that i should only be discussed by experts. is should only be discussed by experts. is that _ should only be discussed by experts. is that because _ should only be discussed by experts. is that because it _ should only be discussed by experts. is that because it is _ should only be discussed by experts. is that because it is such— should only be discussed by experts. is that because it is such a _ should only be discussed by experts. is that because it is such a key- is that because it is such a key part of our economic growth? there was an attitude from the last government that we would have a rather laissez faire attitude towards it. that is very different on the eu, they want to legislate and control it. this is a recognition that we need a much stronger regulatory framework around this because as you say, the interconnection we have seen and how quickly that spread across the world on the impact it has had on millions, with a benign, unprecedented outage, with hostile actors, interesting that zelensky and keir starmer talking about improving military support but the

cyberattacks that ukraine are subjected by russia are extraordinary and nobody talks about those in the cyberattacks in our own country every day cost billions of pounds and we need a much better understanding of where those attacks come and how to be much more resilient about shorting ourselves up resilient about shorting ourselves up against it. all companies have a part to play, notjust government. plenty more discussion on that, no doubt. there was another defiant statement from presidentjoe biden tonight that he remains the democratic candidate. but it does feel like the walls are closing in. senatorjon tester of montana the latest to beg the president to stands aside, and plenty of othersjoined him through the day. nbc report the president was discussing with family how best to exit the race. at which point all the focus will turn to kamala harris — who with impeccable timing invited the press to an outing today to an ice cream parlour with her nieces. impeccable timing! it is a bit of a

soap opera, the brief last night was that it soap opera, the brief last night was thatitis soap opera, the brief last night was that it is coming to a head in the family now involved and another statement tonight pushing back. truth? statement tonight pushing back. why this flood statement tonight pushing back. twig this flood of dissenters. statement tonight pushing back. kwig' this flood of dissenters. we today have ten congressional democrats saying thatjoe biden should step aside and that takes two 35 the number of congressional democrats saying that and the significance about that ten today is that as a highest number in any one day since joe biden“s disastrous debate so that really does clearly show that the pressure is very much building on the president. as you were saying, christian, we had that really defiant statement from joe biden, why don't we just look at his final flooring. biden, why don't we just look at his finalflooring. he is talking biden, why don't we just look at his final flooring. he is talking about how donald trump outlined a dark vision for the united states and together as a party and country we can defeat him. but look at this...

i look forward to getting back onto the campaign trail next week to continue exposing the threat of donald trump's project 2025 agenda, things like cutting the education department, while making the case for mine own record in the vision i have for america. one where we save our democracy, protect our freedoms and create opportunity for everyone. that sounds like joe and create opportunity for everyone. that sounds likejoe biden, as his campaign manager said, that sounds likejoe biden, as his campaign managersaid, is that sounds likejoe biden, as his campaign manager said, is in it to win it. �* , ., win it. and the figures are pointing auainst win it. and the figures are pointing against him? _ win it. and the figures are pointing against him? we _ win it. and the figures are pointing against him? we can _ win it. and the figures are pointing against him? we can turn - win it. and the figures are pointing against him? we can turn to i win it. and the figures are pointing against him? we can turn to the i against him? we can turn to the silver bullet, _ against him? we can turn to the silver bullet, nate _ against him? we can turn to the silver bullet, nate silver, i against him? we can turn to the silver bullet, nate silver, why i silver bullet, nate silver, why don't we look at his tracker poll. from march, read at the top, donald trump and the blue underneath isjoe biden. it was pretty much neck and neck and then look what happens when we have the disastrous debate, donald trump pulls ahead and he is now 45.2% with joe

donald trump pulls ahead and he is now 45.2% withjoe biden on just 41.3. nate silver says thatjoe biden is down by around four points and has gone badly for him in the last 24 hours and he said that trump is spiking and biden is depressing that he says two factors are at play, firstly with the republican convention going well for donald trump and the sympathy vote from the assassination attempt at the weekend. there was an interesting story in the new york times recently and that is nancy pelosi, the former speaker of the house of representatives, the new york times says she was on the phone tojoe biden and says i am seeing the polls that say you will lose and joe biden reportedly said i can see polls that say i will win. nancy pelosi says put donnellan on the phone, mike donnellan, a long—standing aid of joe biden and she said, show me what the polls are, deep distrust of the

biden circle. she the polls are, deep distrust of the biden circle.— biden circle. she is such an important _ biden circle. she is such an important figure. _ biden circle. she is such an important figure. let i biden circle. she is such an important figure. let us . biden circle. she is such an i important figure. let us bring biden circle. she is such an - important figure. let us bring in from the states, bob mulholland, the california state delegate to the democratic national convention. and mary anne marsh — democratic political analyst and formerjohn kerry campaign staffer. maryanne marsh, lots of confusion tonight, what do you think will happen? i know what you think will happen? i know what you think will happen because we have discussed it. you think he will pull out on monday. where is that coming from? you are hearing it from a number of people _ you are hearing it from a number of people across the board, elected officials — people across the board, elected officials and others, and sometimes these _ officials and others, and sometimes these things take on the life of their_ these things take on the life of their own — these things take on the life of their own but let us point to the last three — their own but let us point to the last three weeks, particularly the last three weeks, particularly the last week— last three weeks, particularly the last week or so. what started as a trickle _ last week or so. what started as a trickle of— last week or so. what started as a trickle of voices asking joe biden to step _ trickle of voices asking joe biden to step aside has become a stream which _ to step aside has become a stream which is _ to step aside has become a stream which is becoming a river and could shortly— which is becoming a river and could shortly become a torrent and on monday. — shortly become a torrent and on monday, when both the house and the

senate _ monday, when both the house and the senate are _ monday, when both the house and the senate are in the session in washington, dc, it could become a tsunami _ washington, dc, it could become a tsunami. the pressure that has been put on _ tsunami. the pressure that has been put onjoe _ tsunami. the pressure that has been put onjoe biden expertly, to make a decision— put onjoe biden expertly, to make a decision which... who want to make it? he _ decision which... who want to make it? he certainly does not. but all the signs— it? he certainly does not. but all the signs are pointing tojoe biden making _ the signs are pointing tojoe biden making an — the signs are pointing tojoe biden making an exit the other party is, this has— making an exit the other party is, this has been going on for three weeks. — this has been going on for three weeks, democrats have done more damage _ weeks, democrats have done more damage to — weeks, democrats have done more damage to themselves than donald trump _ damage to themselves than donald trump has done to the party so this has to— trump has done to the party so this has to come — trump has done to the party so this has to come to an end one way or another, — has to come to an end one way or another, very shortly. with 109 has to come to an end one way or another, very shortly. with109 days to go— another, very shortly. with109 days to go untit— another, very shortly. with109 days to go until the election, 58 days untit— to go until the election, 58 days until early— to go until the election, 58 days until early voting starts, you can see the — until early voting starts, you can see the torrent of people coming out and saying _ see the torrent of people coming out and saying we need you to step aside and saying we need you to step aside and it— and saying we need you to step aside and it is— and saying we need you to step aside and it is really based on one thing more _ and it is really based on one thing more than — and it is really based on one thing more than anything else. that is fear, _ more than anything else. that is fear. fear— more than anything else. that is fear, fear that donald trump could return _ fear, fear that donald trump could return to _ fear, fear that donald trump could return to the white house and be without _ return to the white house and be without any controls, any handcuffs, he could _ without any controls, any handcuffs, he could do — without any controls, any handcuffs, he could do whatever he wants, and

when _ he could do whatever he wants, and when you _ he could do whatever he wants, and when you look at the convention and all the _ when you look at the convention and all the things he said he would do, project _ all the things he said he would do, project 2025, that is anathema to freedom — project 2025, that is anathema to freedom and democracy in the us so that is— freedom and democracy in the us so that is what— freedom and democracy in the us so that is what is pushing this and everyone — that is what is pushing this and everyone is afraid that ifjoe biden has one _ everyone is afraid that ifjoe biden has one more hiccup, mistake along the way. _ has one more hiccup, mistake along the way, as— has one more hiccup, mistake along the way, as we get closer to the election. — the way, as we get closer to the election, that could be fatal. gne election, that could be fatal. one thin the election, that could be fatal. one thing the campaign _ election, that could be fatal. one: thing the campaign does not election, that could be fatal. u9: thing the campaign does not have election, that could be fatal. (m9: thing the campaign does not have is time and 16 weeks is not a very long time. i want to play you clip, this isjoe scarborough, a close ally to the president, who was talking about who is advising the president. it's really incumbent on people that are around joe biden _ to step up at this point. and help the president... ..and help the man they love... ..and do the right thing. this is not going to end well if it continues to drag out. _

who is he talking about? why is there a problem of getting information to the president so he can make an informed decision? that is our can make an informed decision? that is your assumption but let's remember, _ is your assumption but let's remember, there— is your assumption but let's remember, there is- is your assumption but let's remember, there is over. is your assumption but let's. remember, there is over250 democrats _ remember, there is over250 democrats in _ remember, there is over250 democrats in congress - remember, there is over250 democrats in congress and l remember, there is over 250 i democrats in congress and very remember, there is over 250 - democrats in congress and very few have spoken — democrats in congress and very few have spoken out _ democrats in congress and very few have spoken out and _ democrats in congress and very few have spoken out and secondly, - democrats in congress and very few have spoken out and secondly, that| have spoken out and secondly, that is why— have spoken out and secondly, that is why we _ have spoken out and secondly, that is why we have _ have spoken out and secondly, that is why we have different _ have spoken out and secondly, that is why we have different branches l have spoken out and secondly, that| is why we have different branches of government — is why we have different branches of government and _ is why we have different branches of government and the _ is why we have different branches of government and the president - is why we have different branches of government and the president is - is why we have different branches ofj government and the president is the executive _ government and the president is the executive and — government and the president is the executive and congress _ government and the president is the executive and congress is _ government and the president is the executive and congress is in - executive and congress is in congress _ executive and congress is in congress and _ executive and congress is in congress and they— executive and congress is in congress and they are - executive and congress is in . congress and they are backing executive and congress is in - congress and they are backing him at the national— congress and they are backing him at the national convention. _ congress and they are backing him at the national convention. he - the national convention. he understands _ the national convention. he understands what _ the national convention. he understands what the - the national convention. hei understands what the issues the national convention. he - understands what the issues are and a lot of— understands what the issues are and a lot of democrats _ understands what the issues are and a lot of democrats on _ understands what the issues are and a lot of democrats on the _ understands what the issues are and a lot of democrats on the ballot, - a lot of democrats on the ballot, especiattv — a lot of democrats on the ballot, especially house _ a lot of democrats on the ballot, especially house members, - a lot of democrats on the ballot, especially house members, they a lot of democrats on the ballot, - especially house members, they are worried _ especially house members, they are worried trut— especially house members, they are worried but i— especially house members, they are worried but i would _ especially house members, they are worried but i would remind - especially house members, they are| worried but i would remind reviewers that in— worried but i would remind reviewers that injune _ worried but i would remind reviewers that injune of— worried but i would remind reviewers that injune of 1992, _ worried but i would remind reviewers that injune of 1992, a _ worried but i would remind reviewers that injune of 1992, a national- that injune of 1992, a national poll had — that injune of 1992, a national poll had biti— that injune of 1992, a national poll had bill clinton _ that injune of 1992, a national poll had bill clinton coming. that injune of 1992, a national poll had bill clinton coming ini poll had bill clinton coming in third — poll had bill clinton coming in third at— poll had bill clinton coming in third at 24% _ poll had bill clinton coming in third at 24% and _ poll had bill clinton coming in third at 24% and |_ poll had bill clinton coming in third at 24% and i wish - poll had bill clinton coming in third at 24% and i wish with l poll had bill clinton coming in i third at 24% and i wish with the democratic— third at 24% and i wish with the democratic party— third at 24% and i wish with the democratic party staffers - third at 24% and i wish with the democratic party staffers and l third at 24% and i wish with thel democratic party staffers and so

many _ democratic party staffers and so many candidates, _ democratic party staffers and so many candidates, my— democratic party staffers and so many candidates, my god, - democratic party staffers and so many candidates, my god, we . democratic party staffers and so - many candidates, my god, we should .et many candidates, my god, we should get rid _ many candidates, my god, we should get rid of— many candidates, my god, we should get rid of bill— many candidates, my god, we should get rid of bill clinton. _ many candidates, my god, we should get rid of bill clinton. i— many candidates, my god, we should get rid of bill clinton. i know- many candidates, my god, we should get rid of bill clinton. i know what - get rid of bill clinton. i know what you said _ get rid of bill clinton. i know what you said about— get rid of bill clinton. i know what you said about the _ get rid of bill clinton. i know what you said about the 16 _ get rid of bill clinton. i know what you said about the 16 weeks - get rid of bill clinton. i know what you said about the 16 weeks but . you said about the 16 weeks but actually. — you said about the 16 weeks but actually. 16— you said about the 16 weeks but actually, 16 weeks _ you said about the 16 weeks but actually, 16 weeks in _ you said about the 16 weeks but actually, 16 weeks in politics, i you said about the 16 weeks but i actually, 16 weeks in politics, even in america. — actually, 16 weeks in politics, even inamerica. is— actually, 16 weeks in politics, even inamerica. isa— actually, 16 weeks in politics, even in america, is a long _ actually, 16 weeks in politics, even in america, is a long time. - actually, 16 weeks in politics, even in america, is a long time. trump, j in america, is a long time. trump, with— in america, is a long time. trump, with diabetes. _ in america, is a long time. trump, with diabetes, could _ in america, is a long time. trump, with diabetes, could have - in america, is a long time. trump, with diabetes, could have a - in america, is a long time. trump, with diabetes, could have a stroke| with diabetes, could have a stroke and all— with diabetes, could have a stroke and all of— with diabetes, could have a stroke and all of a — with diabetes, could have a stroke and all of a sudden, _ with diabetes, could have a stroke and all of a sudden, is _ with diabetes, could have a stroke and all of a sudden, is trump - with diabetes, could have a stroke l and all of a sudden, is trump going to step _ and all of a sudden, is trump going to step down? _ and all of a sudden, is trump going to step down? so _ and all of a sudden, is trump going to step down? so the _ and all of a sudden, is trump going to step down? so the press - and all of a sudden, is trump going to step down? so the press has - and all of a sudden, is trump going. to step down? so the press has made it like _ to step down? so the press has made it like this _ to step down? so the press has made it like this is _ to step down? so the press has made it like this is the _ to step down? so the press has made it like this is the weekend _ to step down? so the press has made it like this is the weekend but - to step down? so the press has made it like this is the weekend but let- it like this is the weekend but let us see _ it like this is the weekend but let us see if— it like this is the weekend but let us see if this _ it like this is the weekend but let us see if this is _ it like this is the weekend but let us see if this is the _ it like this is the weekend but let us see if this is the weekend - it like this is the weekend but letl us see if this is the weekend were president — us see if this is the weekend were president biden— us see if this is the weekend were president biden says _ us see if this is the weekend were president biden says i _ us see if this is the weekend were president biden says i am - us see if this is the weekend were president biden says i am not - president biden says i am not running. _ president biden says i am not running. trut— president biden says i am not running. but i _ president biden says i am not running, but i do _ president biden says i am not running, but i do not - president biden says i am not running, but i do not expect. president biden says i am not - running, but i do not expect that. i have running, but i do not expect that. have no idea. look at the people running, but i do not expect that|. have no idea. look at the people who are calling on him to go. these are not the rank and file of the congress party. you are talking aboutjon tester today, mark warner, seniorfigures in the democratic party. is there a point where you just cannot hold back the tide? joe scarborough talking about this

bubble around him, is a tipping point where things move so far against you cannot stop the tide? there is an old saying in politics that everything is true until it is and it— that everything is true until it is and it feels like that, he is digging _ and it feels like that, he is digging in and saying i am going to fi-ht digging in and saying i am going to fightand— digging in and saying i am going to fight and win. it feels like the position— fight and win. it feels like the position has become untenable, not because _ position has become untenable, not because of— position has become untenable, not because of the numbers but some of the people _ because of the numbers but some of the people coming forward. nancy pelosi _ the people coming forward. nancy pelosi is _ the people coming forward. nancy pelosi is a — the people coming forward. nancy pelosi is a long—term ally ofjoe biden, — pelosi is a long—term ally ofjoe biden, similarly obama, when biden first had _ biden, similarly obama, when biden first had the terrible debate, he came _ first had the terrible debate, he came out— first had the terrible debate, he came out and said we have all had bad came out and said we have all had had nights, — came out and said we have all had bad nights, i have had them myself, and he _ bad nights, i have had them myself, and he rallied to his cause and he is now— and he rallied to his cause and he is now a _ and he rallied to his cause and he is now a briefing that he does not think— is now a briefing that he does not think he — is now a briefing that he does not think he can win and when you have people _ think he can win and when you have people of— think he can win and when you have people of that stature coming out and saying he has to go, his position— and saying he has to go, his position really begins to look untenable. ultimately, he will be compelled to effectively anoint kamala — compelled to effectively anoint kamala harris, who is pretty low standing — kamala harris, who is pretty low standing in the polls, she is better

thanjoe _ standing in the polls, she is better thanjoe biden at standing in the polls, she is better than joe biden at the standing in the polls, she is better thanjoe biden at the moment but that is— thanjoe biden at the moment but that is not— thanjoe biden at the moment but that is not saying much and there are still— that is not saying much and there are still trailing in the battleground states. even if you shift from one candidate to the other, — shift from one candidate to the other, they are not out of the woods try simply— other, they are not out of the woods by simply changing. | other, they are not out of the woods by simply changing-— by simply changing. i have been lookin: at by simply changing. i have been looking at some _ by simply changing. i have been looking at some of _ by simply changing. i have been looking at some of the - by simply changing. i have been looking at some of the figures l by simply changing. i have been i looking at some of the figures and the reason whyjon tester has, today has something to do with this, these are the polls of the senate candidates on the democratic ticket running alongsidejoe biden, from swing states, arizona, michigan, nevada and pennsylvania and look at his approval rating in the approval rating of those running alongside him. they are ten and 11 points ahead of him and they will get back in because they are popular, so long as people turn up to vote on the figures forjoe biden suggest they may not and that is why they are panicking. may not and that is why they are anickina. :, , may not and that is why they are anickin.. ., , ,., may not and that is why they are anickin.. .,, ,., , . panicking. the last time we saw such a lane aa- panicking. the last time we saw such a large gap between _ panicking. the last time we saw such a large gap between the _ panicking. the last time we saw such a large gap between the races - panicking. the last time we saw such a large gap between the races for - a large gap between the races for the senate and the presidential ticket at this point, what happens

in november as those numbers meet and they do not tend to meet in a way that is good for the president, as if he gets lifted up by the senate candidates, they get right down, that is what happened in 2008 and 200a. they are deeply concerned they will be pulled into the mire of joe biden. it is worth noting that it is still a very long time and a lot can change in 16 weeks. what is really important, _ lot can change in 16 weeks. what is really important, to _ lot can change in 16 weeks. what is really important, to understand - lot can change in 16 weeks. what isj really important, to understand the psychology of joe really important, to understand the psychology ofjoe biden. he feels throughout his career he has been patronised — throughout his career he has been patronised and looked down upon, the man from _ patronised and looked down upon, the man from scranton, pennsylvania, the irish man from scranton, pennsylvania, the irish catholic _ man from scranton, pennsylvania, the irish catholic who had to struggle and he _ irish catholic who had to struggle and he feels he has been underestimated throughout his career and he _ underestimated throughout his career and he feels very sore about the way the democratic aled, barack obama in 2015, said _ the democratic aled, barack obama in 2015, said this is the turn of hillary— 2015, said this is the turn of hillary clinton, his son had just died. _ hillary clinton, his son had just died. very— hillary clinton, his son had just died, very bitter about the way he was treated and when hillary clinton, _ was treated and when hillary clinton, i_ was treated and when hillary clinton, i could have beaten donald

trump. _ clinton, i could have beaten donald trump, and — clinton, i could have beaten donald trump, and donald axelrod has this phrase _ trump, and donald axelrod has this phrase aboutjoe biden trump, and donald axelrod has this phrase about joe biden which trump, and donald axelrod has this phrase aboutjoe biden which is he has a _ phrase aboutjoe biden which is he has a chip— phrase aboutjoe biden which is he has a chip on his shoulder and that acts as _ has a chip on his shoulder and that acts as the — has a chip on his shoulder and that acts as the battery power pack powering — acts as the battery power pack powering his career. we have to understand that psychology to understand that psychology to understand where he is now. at the risk of putting _ understand where he is now. at the risk of putting the _ understand where he is now. at the risk of putting the cart _ understand where he is now. at the risk of putting the cart before - understand where he is now. at the risk of putting the cart before the l risk of putting the cart before the horse, can we talk about cameron harris? she was a former attorney general in your state, california. she has ilt million votes as part of the ticket so on paper she is the obvious choice. but there are already democrats who want to move past. how does this work? melt. past. how does this work? well, there are different _ past. how does this work? well, there are different rules - past. how does this work? well, there are different rules any - there are different rules any presidential nominee prior to the convention, if they step down they will automatically support the vice president. after the convention, that is— president. after the convention, that is a — president. after the convention, that is a different story, that would — that is a different story, that would be _ that is a different story, that would be decided by the insiders in

dc. would be decided by the insiders in dc with— would be decided by the insiders in dc. with the election coming up, if a potential— dc. with the election coming up, if a potential nominee decided for whatever— a potential nominee decided for whatever reason, then they would obviously — whatever reason, then they would obviously back the vice president. i want obviously back the vice president. want to obviously back the vice president. i want to play a quick clip, one of the republicans play over and again from an interview she did on the border. she has been tagged as the border. she has been tagged as the border taar. watch this. haste border. she has been tagged as the border taar. watch this.— border taar. watch this. have you an lans border taar. watch this. have you any plans to _ border taar. watch this. have you any plans to visit _ border taar. watch this. have you any plans to visit the _ border taar. watch this. have you any plans to visit the border? - border taar. watch this. have you any plans to visit the border? we | any plans to visit the border? we have been to the border. we are going to the border. we've been to the border. so, this whole thing about the border — we've been to the border, we've been to the border. you haven't been to the border. and i haven't been to europe. i mean, i don't understand the point that you're making. in one point she is the change ticket, the younger generation, but

on the other,