that old murray magic was still there, twinkling in the city of light, but the time for plucky comebacks was over. it's the end of andy murray's tennis career. you can really feel the love in here for andy murray and everything he's achieved, but it's the end of a dream and the end of his career. i gave as much as i could to the sport.| i love competing in the olympic- games and competing for my country. these weeks are so, so special. the tears from both britons were falling freely now for a career that ended on the clay of roland garros. from tennis fans who were lucky enough to be here, a heartfelt thank you and good night. natalie pirks, bbc news, paris.

so no fairy tale end to andy murray's glittering 20 year long career but he said having won olympic gold twice this was how he wanted to bow out and he got his wish. this programme continues on bbc one.

tonight, a bbc employee who complained about huw edwards�* behaviour tells newsnight the bbc�*s investigation was deeply disappointing. but the bbc director—general defends the corporation's handling of huw edwards. and disorder overnight in london and hartlepool,

after the southport knife attacks. we get into the mindset of the far right with someone who used to be part of it. hello. tonight we've gone back to people who spoke to victoria for newsnight�*s investigation into huw edwards last year. 0ne ex—bbcjunior employee who told newsnight a year ago they'd received inappropriate messages from huw edwards says hearing that the tv presenter had child sexual abuse images on whatsapp made them "feel sick". and another who contributed to the bbc�*s investigation said they felt "totally isolated" by the process and hadn't heard anything from the bbc since november.

this afternoon, the director general of the bbc has confirmed the corporation knew the seriousness of the offences huw edwards was facing — but didn't know specific details. the bbc�*s highest—paid news presenter yesterday admitted receiving 41 images of child sex abuse from a now convicted paedophile on whatsapp — including of a child as young as seven. tim davie stands by what he called the "difficut decision" to keep huw edwards on salary but suspended for five months after his arrest. joining us to discuss it all on our panel, john wittingdale mp, journalists cat neilan and brian stelter. but firstjoe pike is here. we were talking about the sources who spoke to the newsnight investigation last year. what have the said investigation last year. what have they said today? _ investigation last year. what have they said today? they've - investigation last year. what have they said today? they've been - they said today? they've been exwessing — they said today? they've been expressing anger, _ they said today? they've been expressing anger, frustration, i expressing anger, frustration, unhappiness, notjust at expressing anger, frustration, unhappiness, not just at the behaviour they say huw edwards showed towards them, inappropriate messages in particular, but i

suppose they argue about the culture that allowed that to happen. firstly, a juniorformer that allowed that to happen. firstly, a junior former employee of the corporation who told us this tonight. huw edwards message me on social media several times, despite us never having met and not knowing each other. many of the messages were clearly inappropriate including telling me unprompted what he was doing in the early hours of this morning, asking that he take me for food and including several kisses at the end of his messages. when i first told my experiences to newsnight year ago i had no idea the story would eventually take such a dark turn. hearing the new allegations earlier this week made me sick. the second person we spoke to a year ago and have caught up with again is a current member of staff, decades younger than huw edwards, in a relativelyjunior position. last year they said that they felt a cold shudder receiving

what they felt were inappropriate messages from the presenter. this is what they told us tonight. " it has been deeply disappointing for the details of the report not to have been made public or to know what other people have experienced what you have, so you know how many other people disaffected. it has left me feeling totally isolated. i felt more reassurances by speaking to the media as a trusted source and i have with the bbc directly. it shouldn't have to be this way. " the person also told us that the last contact they had with the bbc hr investigation team was at the start of last november when they were told there were no more further questions there were no more further questions the bbc had but also giving them links to their samaritans and mind, the mental health charity. tim davie has been asked about that as part of his interview today, especially with the details of the best occasion should be published. he said, we've always followed up on complaints and

concerns. someone can raise concerns in confidence but we can't share everything. his argument is that the bbc isn't sitting on anything. what else was tim davie saying today in the interview at else was tim davie saying today in the intervie— the interview at heart it was him t in: to the interview at heart it was him trying to justify. _ the interview at heart it was him trying to justify. to _ the interview at heart it was him trying to justify, to defend - the interview at heart it was him trying to justify, to defend the i trying to justify, to defend the decision not to sack huw edwards last november, nine months ago, when the met police told the bbc in confidence that he was being investigated in relation to offences concerning sexual, child sexual abuse images.— abuse images. now, tim davie 'ustified abuse images. now, tim davie justified or— abuse images. now, tim davie justified or attempted - abuse images. now, tim davie justified or attempted to - abuse images. now, tim davie| justified or attempted to justify abuse images. now, tim davie i justified or attempted to justify it by framing it as a difficult decision, saying the information was given to him in confidence, that someone being investigated and arrested is not being charged. but also touching on the duty of care the bbc had towards huw edwards. there was a lot of discussion about his mental health challenges. the other big part of the interview was

around the money that the bbc paid between huw edwards's arrest in november and him resigning between huw edwards's arrest in novemberand him resigning in between huw edwards's arrest in november and him resigning in april of this year, £200,000 of licence fee payer money. tim davie said it is unlikely pension contributions can be got back from huw edwards but he said that they would see what they can do over his salary. if: a he said that they would see what they can do over his salary. c a bit of what tim _ they can do over his salary. c a bit of what tim davie _ they can do over his salary. c a bit of what tim davie told _ they can do over his salary. c a bit of what tim davie told our - they can do over his salary. c a bit i of what tim davie told our colleague earlier today. well, we were very shocked. that's the first thing i wanted to say, which is no—one knew about the specifics of what we heard over the last few days, which has been deeply disturbing. now, when it comes to the decision that we made in november, when we were obviously faced with, i think, a very difficult decision, actually, and we considered it very carefully. that was tim davie talking, there. i would like to bring in my panel, a former minister of culture, media

and sport, and a media editor at taught us and also a guest from cnn. john, you were chairing the culture committee when allegations were emerging aboutjimmy savile, you have seen the bbc facing controversy so many times. how damaging is this for the bbc? so many times. how damaging is this forthe bbc?— for the bbc? clearly damaging to the bbc, for the bbc? clearly damaging to the sac, especially _ for the bbc? clearly damaging to the bbc, especially the _ for the bbc? clearly damaging to the bbc, especially the way _ for the bbc? clearly damaging to the bbc, especially the way in _ for the bbc? clearly damaging to the bbc, especially the way in which - bbc, especially the way in which further revelations have become public. there's an impression that the bbc have not sought to be as transparent as they should be. i think it's rather unfortunate that whilst tim davie has quite rightly been asked to talk to the new secretary of state, that will be a private conversation, he has given an interview but has not been able to be examined in the way that a select committee could and it's unfortunate that the select committee hasn't been set up because we are in a new parliament. if it was during the time when i was the chair i would have required him to appear before it tomorrow in order to answer what are significant

question. to answer what are significant cuestion. . , ., question. can he survive it? you been involved _ question. can he survive it? you been involved when _ question. can he survive it? you been involved when other - question. can he survive it? you i been involved when other directors general have fallen on their swords. how do you read this one? i general have fallen on their swords. how do you read this one?— how do you read this one? i think tim davie does _ how do you read this one? i think tim davie does a _ how do you read this one? i think tim davie does a good _ how do you read this one? i think tim davie does a good job, - how do you read this one? i think tim davie does a good job, i - how do you read this one? i think tim davie does a good job, i have how do you read this one? i think i tim davie does a good job, i have a lot of respect for him and i absolutely accept what he said in the interview, that this must have been a very difficult decision but we need to know much more about why it was that he came to the conclusion that huw edwards should go on receiving his salary, that he should be allowed to resign rather than being sacked and why, when the bbc knew about the arrest, and yet we only discover it what, eight months later.— we only discover it what, eight months later. �* , ., , months later. and there is no sign in m da months later. and there is no sign in my day job _ months later. and there is no sign in my day job as — months later. and there is no sign in my day job as the media - months later. and there is no sign in my day job as the media editor| months later. and there is no sign i in my day job as the media editor on in my dayjob as the media editor on bbc news that the director—general has any plans to resign, but do you think when you look at this that he should have acted sooner, based on what he knew?— what he knew? yeah, i mean it's difficult. what he knew? yeah, i mean it's difficult- we _ what he knew? yeah, i mean it's difficult. we have _ what he knew? yeah, i mean it's difficult. we have quite - what he knew? yeah, i mean it's difficult. we have quite strict - difficult. we have quite strict employment laws that must be

followed in all cases. but the question— followed in all cases. but the question is really, he has a duty of care to _ question is really, he has a duty of care to all— question is really, he has a duty of care to all staff, not just to huw edwards — care to all staff, not just to huw edwards. we heard from joe reading out some _ edwards. we heard from joe reading out some of the testimony how hurt and damaged people are still feeling by this— and damaged people are still feeling by this and the revelations from this week— by this and the revelations from this week are again traumatising people — this week are again traumatising people. one of the points that may help to _ people. one of the points that may help to reassure both the public and staff here _ help to reassure both the public and staff here at the bbc would be to release _ staff here at the bbc would be to release the findings of the inquiry so that— release the findings of the inquiry so that people have a sense of the scale _ so that people have a sense of the scale of _ so that people have a sense of the scale of the efforts that went into finding _ scale of the efforts that went into finding out what wrongdoing was happening and whether there was an abuse _ happening and whether there was an abuse of— happening and whether there was an abuse of power within the bbc itself — abuse of power within the bbc itself. ., , itself. one of the things he said in the interview, _ itself. one of the things he said in the interview, clearly _ itself. one of the things he said in the interview, clearly you - itself. one of the things he said in the interview, clearly you cannot l the interview, clearly you cannot equate whatever. .. the interview, clearly you cannot equate whatever... we understand they cannot equate what they found in the internal inquiry with images of child sexual abuse. this was about bbc employees and former employees who had complaints about huw edwards. how do you read that

internal inquiry? it is rare for the bbc to fully publish their internal investigations. this bbc to fully publish their internal investigations.— investigations. this isn't the only occasion, we've _ investigations. this isn't the only occasion, we've had _ investigations. this isn't the only occasion, we've had a _ investigations. this isn't the only occasion, we've had a series - investigations. this isn't the only occasion, we've had a series of. occasion, we've had a series of events over the years and the bbc always carries out internal inquiries and we are always told that lessons have been learned and safeguards put in place but they don't appear to have been affected. joe's revelations about what we are hearing from bbc employees who appear to have suffered completely inappropriate behaviour and reported it, and nothing was done... they are the questions, it isn't enough just to have an internal inquiry. i think there a public need to know exactly what actions were taken by the bbc. let me bring in brian. welcome to the show. you've reported on your fair share of media scandals in the us. have the networks there responded in terms of how they vet or regulate the celebrities involved in these sorts of scandals? yes.

or regulate the celebrities involved in these sorts of scandals?- in these sorts of scandals? yes, in a variety of — in these sorts of scandals? yes, in a variety of ways — in these sorts of scandals? yes, in a variety of ways but _ in these sorts of scandals? yes, in a variety of ways but number- in these sorts of scandals? yes, in a variety of ways but number one, | a variety of ways but number one, when _ a variety of ways but number one, when these — a variety of ways but number one, when these investigations - a variety of ways but number one, when these investigations happen| when these investigations happen they are _ when these investigations happen they are usually— when these investigations happen they are usually internal - when these investigations happen they are usually internal and - when these investigations happeni they are usually internal and these media _ they are usually internal and these media companies, _ they are usually internal and these media companies, regardless- they are usually internal and these media companies, regardless of. media companies, regardless of country— media companies, regardless of country or— media companies, regardless of country or location— media companies, regardless of country or location and - media companies, regardless of country or location and size - media companies, regardless of country or location and size arel country or location and size are very— country or location and size are very reticent _ country or location and size are very reticent to _ country or location and size are very reticent to release - country or location and size are| very reticent to release internal information _ very reticent to release internal information. that's— very reticent to release internal information. that'sjust - very reticent to release internal information. that's just a - very reticent to release internal| information. that'sjust a reality across—the—board. _ information. that'sjust a reality across—the—board. 0ften, - information. that'sjust a reality| across—the—board. 0ften, media companies, _ across—the—board. 0ften, media companies, newsrooms, - across—the—board. 0ften, media companies, newsrooms, are - across—the—board. 0ften, media companies, newsrooms, are notj across—the—board. 0ften, media . companies, newsrooms, are not as transparent— companies, newsrooms, are not as transparent as — companies, newsrooms, are not as transparent as the _ companies, newsrooms, are not as transparent as the organisations i transparent as the organisations they are — transparent as the organisations they are reporting _ transparent as the organisations they are reporting on. _ transparent as the organisations they are reporting on. there - transparent as the organisations they are reporting on. there is i transparent as the organisations. they are reporting on. there is an hypocrisy— they are reporting on. there is an hypocrisy at — they are reporting on. there is an hypocrisy at play, _ they are reporting on. there is an hypocrisy at play, i_ they are reporting on. there is an hypocrisy at play, i admit, - they are reporting on. there is an hypocrisy at play, i admit, when i hypocrisy at play, i admit, when that's— hypocrisy at play, i admit, when that's the — hypocrisy at play, i admit, when that's the case. _ hypocrisy at play, i admit, when that's the case. journalists - hypocrisy at play, i admit, when i that's the case. journalists should be that's the case. journalists should he held _ that's the case. journalists should he held to — that's the case. journalists should be held to even _ that's the case. journalists should be held to even higher— that's the case. journalists should be held to even higher standardsl be held to even higher standards than the — be held to even higher standards than the people _ be held to even higher standards than the people they _ be held to even higher standards than the people they are - be held to even higher standards i than the people they are covering, for this— than the people they are covering, for this reason. _ than the people they are covering, for this reason. we _ than the people they are covering, for this reason. we saw— than the people they are covering, for this reason. we saw during - than the people they are covering, for this reason. we saw during thej for this reason. we saw during the #metoo _ for this reason. we saw during the #metoo movement— for this reason. we saw during the #metoo movement as _ for this reason. we saw during the #metoo movement as nbc - for this reason. we saw during the #metoo movement as nbc and l for this reason. we saw during the i #metoo movement as nbc and cbs for this reason. we saw during the - #metoo movement as nbc and cbs and ma'or #metoo movement as nbc and cbs and major movie _ #metoo movement as nbc and cbs and major movie stars — #metoo movement as nbc and cbs and major movie stars forced _ #metoo movement as nbc and cbs and major movie stars forced out _ #metoo movement as nbc and cbs and major movie stars forced out these - major movie stars forced out these accused _ major movie stars forced out these accused sexual— major movie stars forced out these accused sexual predators, - major movie stars forced out these accused sexual predators, we - major movie stars forced out these accused sexual predators, we sawl accused sexual predators, we saw dramatic — accused sexual predators, we saw dramatic changes _ accused sexual predators, we saw dramatic changes to _ accused sexual predators, we saw dramatic changes to the _ accused sexual predators, we sawl dramatic changes to the structures in place _ dramatic changes to the structures in place for— dramatic changes to the structures in place for employees _ dramatic changes to the structures in place for employees to - dramatic changes to the structures in place for employees to report i in place for employees to report wrongdoing. _ in place for employees to report wrongdoing. for— in place for employees to report wrongdoing, for employees - in place for employees to report wrongdoing, for employees to i in place for employees to reportl wrongdoing, for employees to go in place for employees to report - wrongdoing, for employees to go up the chain— wrongdoing, for employees to go up the chain of— wrongdoing, for employees to go up the chain of command _ wrongdoing, for employees to go up the chain of command to— wrongdoing, for employees to go up the chain of command to warn - the chain of command to warn management _ the chain of command to warn management. this— the chain of command to warn management. this seems- the chain of command to warn management. this seems like the chain of command to warn i management. this seems like a situation — management. this seems like a situation where _ management. this seems like a situation where there _ management. this seems like a situation where there were - management. this seems like a situation where there were noti situation where there were not enough — situation where there were not enough systems _ situation where there were not enough systems in— situation where there were not enough systems in place - situation where there were not enough systems in place for. enough systems in place for management— enough systems in place for management to _ enough systems in place for management to be - enough systems in place for management to be alerted. enough systems in place for. management to be alerted and enough systems in place for- management to be alerted and for employees— management to be alerted and for

employees to _ management to be alerted and for employees to know— management to be alerted and for employees to know what - management to be alerted and for- employees to know what management was doing _ employees to know what management was doing at— employees to know what management was doing at the — employees to know what management was doing at the time. _ employees to know what management was doing at the time.— was doing at the time. clearly the huw edwards _ was doing at the time. clearly the huw edwards situation _ was doing at the time. clearly the huw edwards situation is - was doing at the time. clearly the huw edwards situation is very - huw edwards situation is very different from #metoo. he has pleaded guilty to having images of child sexual abuse but what is your observation when you look across the pond at cars? do you see more transparency from the bbc dealing with that crisis now? —— when you look across the pond at us? sometimes american newsrooms try and cover this _ sometimes american newsrooms try and cover this at _ sometimes american newsrooms try and cover this at the — sometimes american newsrooms try and cover this at the bare _ sometimes american newsrooms try and cover this at the bare minimum - sometimes american newsrooms try and cover this at the bare minimum but - cover this at the bare minimum but that isn't_ cover this at the bare minimum but that isn't happening _ cover this at the bare minimum but that isn't happening at— cover this at the bare minimum but that isn't happening at the - cover this at the bare minimum but that isn't happening at the bbc- cover this at the bare minimum but that isn't happening at the bbc andj that isn't happening at the bbc and that isn't happening at the bbc and that should — that isn't happening at the bbc and that should he _ that isn't happening at the bbc and that should be commended. - that isn't happening at the bbc and that should be commended. what. that isn't happening at the bbc and i that should be commended. what we are seeing _ that should be commended. what we are seeing at— that should be commended. what we are seeing at any— that should be commended. what we are seeing at any of— that should be commended. what we are seeing at any of these _ are seeing at any of these organisations— are seeing at any of these organisations is— are seeing at any of these organisations is that - are seeing at any of thesel organisations is that these are seeing at any of these - organisations is that these men in powerful— organisations is that these men in powerful positions _ organisations is that these men in powerful positions who _ organisations is that these men in powerful positions who abuse - organisations is that these men ini powerful positions who abuse their power— powerful positions who abuse their power can— powerful positions who abuse their power can get _ powerful positions who abuse their power can get away— powerful positions who abuse their power can get away with _ powerful positions who abuse their power can get away with it - powerful positions who abuse their power can get away with it for- powerful positions who abuse their power can get away with it for far i power can get away with it for far too long. — power can get away with it for far too long. that _ power can get away with it for far too long, that this _ power can get away with it for far too long, that this can _ power can get away with it for far too long, that this can go - power can get away with it for far too long, that this can go on - power can get away with it for far too long, that this can go on for. too long, that this can go on for years— too long, that this can go on for years and — too long, that this can go on for years and eventually— too long, that this can go on for years and eventually it - too long, that this can go on for years and eventually it is - too long, that this can go on for. years and eventually it is exposed but at _ years and eventually it is exposed but at a _ years and eventually it is exposed but at a very— years and eventually it is exposed but at a very high—priced - years and eventually it is exposed but at a very high—priced and - years and eventually it is exposed but at a very high—priced and a i years and eventually it is exposed i but at a very high—priced and a very high cost _ but at a very high—priced and a very high cost that's _ but at a very high—priced and a very high cost. that's why— but at a very high—priced and a very high cost. that's why it's _ but at a very high—priced and a very high cost. that's why it's important| high cost. that's why it's important the bbc_ high cost. that's why it's important the bbc updated _ high cost. that's why it's important the bbc updated its _ high cost. that's why it's important the bbc updated its guidelines - high cost. that's why it's important the bbc updated its guidelines forl the bbc updated its guidelines for emptoyees— the bbc updated its guidelines for employees to _ the bbc updated its guidelines for employees to talk _ the bbc updated its guidelines for employees to talk about - the bbc updated its guidelines for employees to talk about celebrity| employees to talk about celebrity status _ employees to talk about celebrity status being _ employees to talk about celebrity status being used _ employees to talk about celebrity status being used as—

employees to talk about celebrity status being used as an _ employees to talk about celebrity status being used as an abuse - employees to talk about celebrity status being used as an abuse ofl status being used as an abuse of power— status being used as an abuse of power because _ status being used as an abuse of power because that _ status being used as an abuse of power because that is _ status being used as an abuse of power because that is the - status being used as an abuse of. power because that is the through line power because that is the through tine in— power because that is the through line in so— power because that is the through tine in so many— power because that is the through line in so many of— power because that is the through line in so many of these _ power because that is the through line in so many of these stories i line in so many of these stories that have — line in so many of these stories that have oiled _ line in so many of these stories that have oiled the _ line in so many of these stories that have oiled the industry- line in so many of these storiesl that have oiled the industry over the last— that have oiled the industry over the last few_ that have oiled the industry over the last few decades, _ that have oiled the industry over the last few decades, the - that have oiled the industry over the last few decades, the abuse| that have oiled the industry over. the last few decades, the abuse of power— the last few decades, the abuse of power by— the last few decades, the abuse of power by peopte — the last few decades, the abuse of power by people who _ the last few decades, the abuse of power by people who think- the last few decades, the abuse of power by people who think they i the last few decades, the abuse ofl power by people who think they are on top _ power by people who think they are on top of— power by people who think they are on top of it— power by people who think they are on top of it all. _ power by people who think they are on top of it all, who _ power by people who think they are on top of it all, who are _ power by people who think they are on top of it all, who are talent - power by people who think they are on top of it all, who are talent andi on top of it all, who are talent and can abuse — on top of it all, who are talent and can abuse their— on top of it all, who are talent and can abuse their privileges - on top of it all, who are talent and can abuse their privileges or- on top of it all, who are talent and can abuse their privileges or claim j can abuse their privileges or claim they are _ can abuse their privileges or claim they are having _ can abuse their privileges or claim they are having a _ can abuse their privileges or claim they are having a mental- can abuse their privileges or claim they are having a mental health i they are having a mental health crisis _ they are having a mental health crisis and — they are having a mental health crisis and perhaps _ they are having a mental health crisis and perhaps they - they are having a mental health crisis and perhaps they can - they are having a mental health crisis and perhaps they can conl they are having a mental health i crisis and perhaps they can con the bbc _ crisis and perhaps they can con the bbc i— crisis and perhaps they can con the bbc. , ., �* crisis and perhaps they can con the ssc. , ., �* ~ ., bbc. i definitely don't know whether he would- -- — bbc. i definitely don't know whether he would- -- i— bbc. i definitely don't know whether he would... i can't _ bbc. i definitely don't know whether he would... i can't suggest - bbc. i definitely don't know whether he would... i can't suggest he - bbc. i definitely don't know whetherj he would... i can't suggest he would be conning the bbc but we understand that huw edwards is suffering severe medical issues but kat, what you think about what brian was saying? i think about what brian was saying? i think there's a wider not just think about what brian was saying? i think there's a wider notjust in the media _ think there's a wider notjust in the media but in politics and many other— the media but in politics and many other fields, where we have powerful people _ other fields, where we have powerful people who no longer have the same checks _ people who no longer have the same checks and _ people who no longer have the same checks and balances as the rest of us. checks and balances as the rest of us they— checks and balances as the rest of us. they seem to grow bigger than the world _ us. they seem to grow bigger than the world they were in before and that makes it very difficult. when that makes it very difficult. when that happens, you no longer have the normal— that happens, you no longer have the normal hr_ that happens, you no longer have the normal hr processes, and that's when

you have _ normal hr processes, and that's when you have whistle—blowers and stories leaking _ you have whistle—blowers and stories leaking. the rest, to come back to the original— leaking. the rest, to come back to the original question about whether tim davie _ the original question about whether tim davie can survive, is if there are more — tim davie can survive, is if there are more stories that will come out. people _ are more stories that will come out. people nray— are more stories that will come out. people may feel that not enough is being _ people may feel that not enough is being done internally. joe, people may feel that not enough is being done internally.— being done internally. joe, i think we have a readout _ being done internally. joe, i think we have a readout of— being done internally. joe, i think we have a readout of the - being done internally. joe, i think we have a readout of the meeting that sirjohn was talking about between lisa nandy and the director—general. in between lisa nandy and the director-general.— between lisa nandy and the director-general. in the last few minutes we _ director-general. in the last few minutes we have _ director-general. in the last few minutes we have got _ director-general. in the last few minutes we have got an - director-general. in the last few minutes we have got an update| director-general. in the last few- minutes we have got an update from the department of culture. in lisa nandy, the new culture secretary, remains concerned, we are told. there are clear risks that the current situation could damage public trust. it is quite a long series of quotes. this is the key bit. a spokesman has said she had spoken to the director—general on the phone to raise concerns on a number of points regarding the handling of the investigations and what safeguards and processes have been followed in this case and what further action may be taken, especially with regard to the handling of licence fee payers's money, that £200,000 figure again.

and sirjohn, if you were there, if you were her, you have been in that department, what questions would you be asking? she's talking about fears in damaging public trust. i was be asking? she's talking about fears in damaging public trust.— in damaging public trust. i was a minister in _ in damaging public trust. i was a minister in the _ in damaging public trust. i was a minister in the department - in damaging public trust. i was a | minister in the department when in damaging public trust. i was a - minister in the department when this first arose and lucy frazer, then secretary of state, also summoned the director—general and asked questions, and that's the time when the sun first reported allegations against huw edwards but from what i hear they are the right questions. my hear they are the right questions. my concern is that tim davie will provide answers to the secretary of state but we won't necessarily hear them in full. that's why i think a select committee is the right place where the director—general can be held to account in public. where the director-general can be held to account in public.- where the director-general can be held to account in public. great, we will turn to — held to account in public. great, we will turn to something _ held to account in public. great, we will turn to something else, - held to account in public. great, we will turn to something else, now. i it's not a protest that got out of hand, the pm said today, it's a group of individuals bent on violence. keir starmer was talking about the disorder in hartlepool and london which saw 100 arrests near downing street overnight. but why have the horrific murders and attempted murders of children learning to dance in southport

triggered protests of this kind and how much has social media played a part? joining me is matthew collins, head of intelligence at the anti—racism organisation hope not hate, but once — as a teenager — an organiser for the national front. first, let's hear what keir starmer said today. i will not permit under any circumstances a breakdown in law and order on our streets. because, let's be very clear about this, it's not protest, it's not legitimate, it's crime, violent disorder, an assault on the rule of law and the execution ofjustice. matthew collins, welcome to newsnight. just pick up on that question i was hinting at there, which is how do we go from the awful events of southport, how does it become the logical step to rip up the garden walls and throw bricks at

police? the garden walls and throw bricks at olice? , , . , .,, the garden walls and throw bricks at olice? , , . , ., . police? this is what people who have no ower police? this is what people who have no power or— police? this is what people who have no power or no _ police? this is what people who have no power or no understanding - police? this is what people who have no power or no understanding of- no power or no understanding of power deal with things, these are men who are encouraged to see themselves, or they portray themselves, or they portray themselves as the great protectors of their community. like a lot of people, they feel completely powerless when you see something like this happen. unfortunately what happens now is people go on to social media to express their horror, their dismay and anger, which are all perfectly normal and natural emotions to feel, and when you get onto social media now, you see it is absolutely full of lies, half—truths, conspiracy theories, and that is basically... it is not just southport, this has been brewing for a couple of years, we saw it in kirby last year when they are attacked the police and set fire to a police van, we sought throughout the summer, certain flashpoints, certain individuals are driving a narrative that divides communities, driving a narrative of lies. we know the alleged attacker

has been portrayed as a muslim, is an islamist. brute has been portrayed as a muslim, is an lslamist— has been portrayed as a muslim, is an islamist. ~ _, ., ., . an islamist. we will come onto that. you know how _ an islamist. we will come onto that. you know how these _ an islamist. we will come onto that. you know how these people - an islamist. we will come onto that. you know how these people tick, - an islamist. we will come onto that. | you know how these people tick, you were once one of them, what is going on inside their heads? thea;r were once one of them, what is going on inside their heads?— on inside their heads? they 'ust feel so disempowered. �* on inside their heads? theyjust feel so disempowered. they - on inside their heads? theyjust i feel so disempowered. they have on inside their heads? theyjust - feel so disempowered. they have no idea how they can engage in mainstream society. these are people who do not engage in mainstream society. these are people who feel emasculated and also, of course, they are looking for someone to blame. that leads us into the basis, who can they blame for this? do you cate . orise who can they blame for this? do you categorise them _ who can they blame for this? do you categorise them as _ who can they blame for this? do you categorise them as pyrite? - who can they blame for this? do you categorise them as pyrite? i - who can they blame for this? do you categorise them as pyrite? i think i categorise them as pyrite? i think the --eole categorise them as pyrite? i think the people who — categorise them as pyrite? i think the people who are _ categorise them as pyrite? i think the people who are behind - categorise them as pyrite? i think the people who are behind the - the people who are behind the demonstrations, who are feeding the lies are far right. but we shouldn't automatically write everybody. there are people there who just do not know how to cope and how to with it. that is where we want the government to step in. also we saw people in southport who went and rebuilt the mosque, so there are good people and communities who feel the same way,

they feel absolutely bereft, how to we re—engage, how do we rebuild communities? i we re-engage, how do we rebuild communities?— we re-engage, how do we rebuild communities? i think you have also talked about _ communities? i think you have also talked about recreational _ communities? i think you have also talked about recreational rioting. i talked about recreational rioting. that said something slightly different. ., , different. some of the things we saw on social media _ different. some of the things we saw on social media and _ different. some of the things we saw on social media and we _ different. some of the things we saw on social media and we saw - different. some of the things we saw on social media and we saw in - on social media and we saw in southport where young people turning up southport where young people turning up with a flag and a crate of ale or cider is because also it is recreational, this is a big night out for us. i think there is a naivety in it all, but also this idea, yeah, there is recreational violence. we sought after england lost in the european championships. when it comes to these moments of disorder, who do you think is there? the police were talking about edl. this is a continuing problem. the police are just saying edl. they have not existed for 14 years. the government are talking about another wheel that they want to create. the

laws exist to deal with this, the police have the intelligence to deal with this, but when they see it is things like the edl, it sits back this idea about how to be contained something? there is no edl. we have groups like idiotic alternative, which is like a continuity —— patriotically alternative. we are people with terrorist convictions out writing. people with terrorist convictions out writing-— people with terrorist convictions outwritinu. ., ., , , ., out writing. how do they differ from the a-rou out writing. how do they differ from the group that _ out writing. how do they differ from the group that you _ out writing. how do they differ from the group that you joined _ out writing. how do they differ from the group that you joined as - the group that you joined as a teenager? i think we can see some pictures of this. perhaps we will see some pictures. how does it differfrom when you see some pictures. how does it differ from when you are part of the national front?— national front? when i was in the national front? when i was in the national front, _ national front? when i was in the national front, it _ national front? when i was in the national front, it was _ national front? when i was in the national front, it was a _ national front? when i was in the national front, it was a finished i national front, it was a finished french movement and it did not have social media. we had a society that knew how to deal with that sort of nonsense and that sort of rubbish. moving on 30 years, that is how old i am now... is that me? moving moving on 30 years, that is how old iam now... is that me? moving on, i don't think we have a confident

enough... how would you describe it? you know, civil society needs strengthening. good voices need to be heard. social media it needs far greater regulation. the other thing, i keep talking to about this —— talking to people about this, it must be a migrant, it must be some day of the boat, these are all lies. members of parliament played a part in this. big media celebrities played a part in spreading these lies. it is always about, is it a muslim, is it an immigrant? the fact of the matter, what we do not talk about in society, he was a man. let's talk about what men do. it is also worth — let's talk about what men do. it is also worth talking about the fact it was false. ., , , . , , , was false. completely false, yes. lets 'ust was false. completely false, yes. lets just bring — was false. completely false, yes. letsjust bring in _ was false. completely false, yes. letsjust bring in the _ was false. completely false, yes. letsjust bring in the panel. - lets just bring in the panel. matthew collins was talking about social media and the impact of that. what is your view on that? i know you talked about regulation of social media, but is it made worse by social media? it is more able to

organise these things. it by social media? it is more able to organise these things.— organise these things. it does a- ear organise these things. it does appear that — organise these things. it does appear that the _ organise these things. it does appear that the false - organise these things. it does | appear that the false narrative organise these things. it does - appear that the false narrative that this was somehow linked to islamist, terrorism or whatever was being fuelled by social media. we have put in place laws to put responsibility on to the social media platforms for what appears on them, through the online safety act, that is administered by 0fcom. i would expect 0fcom to look very carefully at the actions of the social media companies as to why this was allowed to be propagated and how quickly it was taken down. flat to be propagated and how quickly it was taken down.— to be propagated and how quickly it was taken down. cat neilan, do you see this as — was taken down. cat neilan, do you see this as the _ was taken down. cat neilan, do you see this as the first _ was taken down. cat neilan, do you see this as the first real— was taken down. cat neilan, do you see this as the first real test - was taken down. cat neilan, do you see this as the first real test for - see this as the first real test for labour? it has only been a few weeks in power, but is this the first test? ~ . . . , test? we have had a few different first tests, _ test? we have had a few different first tests, but _ test? we have had a few different first tests, but i _ test? we have had a few different first tests, but i think _ test? we have had a few different first tests, but i think this - test? we have had a few different first tests, but i think this is - first tests, but i think this is probably— first tests, but i think this is probably the most significant. because — probably the most significant. because it is about as as a society. yes, _ because it is about as as a society. yes. i_ because it is about as as a society. yes. i agree — because it is about as as a society. yes, i agree with what sirjohn is saying _ yes, i agree with what sirjohn is saying about social media companies, that is— saying about social media companies, that is where it clearly started. we

need _ that is where it clearly started. we need to _ that is where it clearly started. we need to understand better how online conspiracies affect real—world violence _ conspiracies affect real—world violence. that is clearly what is going _ violence. that is clearly what is going on— violence. that is clearly what is going on here. but to see sir keir starmer's — going on here. but to see sir keir starmer's statement today, he is kind of— starmer's statement today, he is kind of walking the line between this idea — kind of walking the line between this idea of being tough but also trying _ this idea of being tough but also trying to, — this idea of being tough but also trying to, you know, be prime ministerial— trying to, you know, be prime ministerial and not fit into this inflammatory rhetoric that we have seen from — inflammatory rhetoric that we have seen from some other mp5. so, yes, i think— seen from some other mp5. so, yes, i think it _ seen from some other mp5. so, yes, i think it is _ seen from some other mp5. so, yes, i think it is a _ seen from some other mp5. so, yes, i think it is a big — seen from some other mp5. so, yes, i think it is a big test. whether that rhetoric, — think it is a big test. whether that rhetoric, whether that tough talk will turn — rhetoric, whether that tough talk will turn into action will be a test of both— will turn into action will be a test of both him and the new home secretary _ of both him and the new home secretary-— secretary. matt, we had some reaction from _ secretary. matt, we had some reaction from nigel _ secretary. matt, we had some reaction from nigel farage - secretary. matt, we had some - reaction from nigel farage tonight saying the far right react to discomfort and unease that is out there and chaired by millions of people. he says, i do not support thuggery in any way at all. what you think of that, matthew collins? i wonder who these people would vote for. ~ . ., ,,

wonder who these people would vote for. . . ., ithink wonder who these people would vote for._ i think he - for. what do you think? i think he should have _ for. what do you think? i think he should have a _ for. what do you think? i think he should have a very _ for. what do you think? i think he should have a very strong - for. what do you think? i think he should have a very strong look- for. what do you think? i think he should have a very strong look at| should have a very strong look at the way he addresses very serious and damaging issues. i think you should address some of the things that he put on social media himself in wake of this in southport.- in wake of this in southport. would ou sa in wake of this in southport. would you say this — in wake of this in southport. would you say this is _ in wake of this in southport. would you say this is now _ in wake of this in southport. would you say this is now over? _ in wake of this in southport. would you say this is now over? no. - in wake of this in southport. would you say this is now over? no. i - you say this is now over? no. i think the _ you say this is now over? no. i think the government - you say this is now over? no. i think the government needs i you say this is now over? no. i | think the government needs to you say this is now over? ijr>. i think the government needs to really help build communities, strengthen communities and a good voices, but we also need to deal with the long—term problem that we have seen boiling over. i hope they do, i hope they can. that is what hope not hate does, anyway. we they can. that is what hope not hate does. anyway-— does, anyway. we will be watching. we have got — time for one more story on newsnight tonight. it's been a dramatic day — the biggest prisoner exchange between russia and the west since the end of the cold war. the journalist evan gershkovich is on his way home after more than a year in a russian prison. the british russian dissdient vladimir kara—murza — whose plight we have highlighted on this programme — is also free. but one person is missing. alexei navalny was originally due to have been included,

according to his wife's team, before his sudden death in a remote russian prison colony in february. ifi if i could go straight to you, first of all, sirjohn whittingdale, because you have raised mr kara—murza's plight in the house of commons previously. i kara-murza's plight in the house of commons previously.— commons previously. i met a few months ago _ commons previously. i met a few months ago vladimir _ commons previously. i met a few. months ago vladimir kara-murza's months ago vladimir kara—murza's wife and mother. they were really concerned about his safety after the murder of alexei navalny. he was the most high—profile prisoner, he was being held in appalling conditions, and there was a real concern that he might not survive. so the fact that he has been released alongside evan gershkovich is fantastic news. brian, if i could bring you back in, but has the reaction been in the us? this is an important moment for president biden_ this is an important moment for president biden who _ this is an important moment for president biden who is - this is an important moment for president biden who is now- this is an important moment for president biden who is now a i this is an important moment for. president biden who is now a lame duck president. _ president biden who is now a lame duck president, who _ president biden who is now a lame duck president, who is _ president biden who is now a lame duck president, who is clearly- president biden who is now a lame duck president, who is clearly on i duck president, who is clearly on the way— duck president, who is clearly on the way out _ duck president, who is clearly on the way out as _ duck president, who is clearly on the way out as he _ duck president, who is clearly on the way out as he is _ duck president, who is clearly on the way out as he is a _ duck president, who is clearly on the way out as he is a noted - duck president, who is clearly on i the way out as he is a noted kamala harris _ the way out as he is a noted kamala harris as— the way out as he is a noted kamala harris as his — the way out as he is a noted kamala harris as his successor. _ the way out as he is a noted kamala harris as his successor. to - the way out as he is a noted kamala harris as his successor. to now- harris as his successor. to now learn _ harris as his successor. to now learn that— harris as his successor. to now learn that as _ harris as his successor. to now learn that as he _ harris as his successor. to now

learn that as he was _ harris as his successor. to now learn that as he was deciding i harris as his successor. to nowi learn that as he was deciding not harris as his successor. to now- learn that as he was deciding not to seek a _ learn that as he was deciding not to seek a second — learn that as he was deciding not to seek a second time _ learn that as he was deciding not to seek a second time he _ learn that as he was deciding not to seek a second time he was - learn that as he was deciding not to seek a second time he was activelyl seek a second time he was actively working _ seek a second time he was actively working the — seek a second time he was actively working the phones _ seek a second time he was actively working the phones to _ seek a second time he was actively working the phones to ensure - seek a second time he was actively working the phones to ensure thisl working the phones to ensure this what _ working the phones to ensure this what would — working the phones to ensure this what would happen, _ working the phones to ensure this what would happen, it _ working the phones to ensure this what would happen, it is - working the phones to ensure this what would happen, it is a - what would happen, it is a remarkable _ what would happen, it is a remarkable moment - what would happen, it is a remarkable moment for. what would happen, it is a i remarkable moment for him. what would happen, it is a - remarkable moment for him. it also raises _ remarkable moment for him. it also raises the _ remarkable moment for him. it also raises the awareness _ remarkable moment for him. it also raises the awareness about - raises the awareness about state—sponsored _ raises the awareness about - state—sponsored hostagetaking. this is not _ state—sponsored hostagetaking. this is not the _ state—sponsored hostagetaking. this is not the end — state-sponsored hostagetaking. this is rrot the end-— is not the end. does it also tell us write a bit — is not the end. does it also tell us write a bit about _ is not the end. does it also tell us write a bit about the _ is not the end. does it also tell us write a bit about the worsening i write a bit about the worsening situation for journalists across the world? situation for 'ournalists across the world? , . , ., situation for 'ournalists across the world? , . ., world? yes, that is one of the most concerning — world? yes, that is one of the most concerning takeaways. _ world? yes, that is one of the most concerning takeaways. evan - world? yes, that is one of the most concerning takeaways. evan is - world? yes, that is one of the most concerning takeaways. evan is not i concerning takeaways. evan is not the last _ concerning takeaways. evan is not the last analysis _ concerning takeaways. evan is not the last analysis that _ concerning takeaways. evan is not the last analysis that will- concerning takeaways. evan is not the last analysis that will be - concerning takeaways. evan is not| the last analysis that will be swept up the last analysis that will be swept up in _ the last analysis that will be swept up in this— the last analysis that will be swept up in this case _ the last analysis that will be swept up in this case by— the last analysis that will be swept up in this case by an _ the last analysis that will be swept up in this case by an autocrat - the last analysis that will be swept up in this case by an autocrat whol up in this case by an autocrat who once _ up in this case by an autocrat who once leverage _ up in this case by an autocrat who once leverage and _ up in this case by an autocrat who once leverage and power. - up in this case by an autocrat who once leverage and power. (at. up in this case by an autocrat who once leverage and power. cat neilan, i wonder once leverage and power. cat neilan, i wonder what — once leverage and power. cat neilan, i wonder what your _ once leverage and power. cat neilan, i wonder what your response - once leverage and power. cat neilan, i wonder what your response as - once leverage and power. cat neilan, i wonder what your response as to i i wonder what your response as to what we have been seeing today? really dramatic. anyjournalist, we have all followed the case of evan gershkovich. have all followed the case of evan gershkovich-— have all followed the case of evan gershkovich. during every day that it is another— gershkovich. during every day that it is another day _ gershkovich. during every day that it is another day that _ gershkovich. during every day that it is another day that he _ gershkovich. during every day that it is another day that he has - gershkovich. during every day that it is another day that he has been l it is another day that he has been in prison, — it is another day that he has been in prison, so— it is another day that he has been in prison, so close to 500 days. but he is _ in prison, so close to 500 days. but he is by— in prison, so close to 500 days. but he is by no — in prison, so close to 500 days. but he is by no means the person that has been — he is by no means the person that has been held for the longest. yes, absolutely, — has been held for the longest. yes, absolutely, i think it is worrying. it is absolutely, i think it is worrying. it is this— absolutely, i think it is worrying. it is this kind of self reinforcing de miguel type situation of the sea that they— de miguel type situation of the sea that they can use people who are in

russia _ that they can use people who are in russia for— that they can use people who are in russia for legitimate purposes, working — russia for legitimate purposes, working as journalists are working as aid _ working as journalists are working as aid workers or whatever and take them _ as aid workers or whatever and take them as— as aid workers or whatever and take them as hostages, then use them to -et them as hostages, then use them to get people _ them as hostages, then use them to get people who have committed crimes and who— get people who have committed crimes and who have been convicted as criminals — and who have been convicted as criminals i_ and who have been convicted as criminals. i think it is dangerous. you know. — criminals. i think it is dangerous. you know. i_ criminals. i think it is dangerous. you know, i do fear for my colleagues who are in russia and other— colleagues who are in russia and other parts of the world where that might— other parts of the world where that might happen. sir other parts of the world where that might happen-— other parts of the world where that might happen. sirjohn, what do you think about that _ might happen. sirjohn, what do you think about that argument _ might happen. sirjohn, what do you think about that argument that - might happen. sirjohn, what do you think about that argument that this. think about that argument that this any sense means that next time they will be taking more hostages in order to use them as pawns? it is obvious that _ order to use them as pawns? it is obvious that the _ order to use them as pawns? it 3 obvious that the exchange has taken place to place to bring to this country or to freedom innocent people, one who was a political activist, the other was a journalist, and in return we have sent back to russia some appalling murderers. it does raise the question about every time we catch somebody who is intent on committing murder or crimes, who is russian, they simply go and abduct somebody else in order to get them back. on the other hand, as i say, kara—murza, his life was seriously in danger, gershkovich... iwas

atoin to in danger, gershkovich... iwas going to say — in danger, gershkovich... iwas going to say to _ in danger, gershkovich... iwas going to say to you, _ in danger, gershkovich... iwas going to say to you, what - in danger, gershkovich... iwas going to say to you, what do i in danger, gershkovich... i was. going to say to you, what do you know about his plight? i do know that he was _ know about his plight? i do know that he was moved _ know about his plight? i do know that he was moved into - know about his plight? i do know that he was moved into a - know about his plight? i do know that he was moved into a prisonl that he was moved into a prison which was in siberia. his mother and wife are very anxious that he would not survive. he was subject to the most inhumane and appalling treatment in prison, particularly after navalny�*s death he was seen to be probably the next one. i think there will be hugely from his family that he has now got his freedom. did it come as a shock to either of you, a surprise that this was happening? it came out of the blue in a sense, or did it not?— or did it not? the people that were closely watching, not _ or did it not? the people that were closely watching, not me, but - closely watching, not me, but the e>

trigger— convicted, that was the kind of trigger that then would allow this prisoner—