welcome to viewers of bbc news. we are discussing the prison crisis. we want your calls. the criminal justice system, crime, something at the heart of so many, well, all of our lives. the prison estate is in aera our lives. the prison estate is in aer a terrible state. the breaks new is is operation new dawn has started. get in touch. the government said that the riots, or as the government puts it, the action to tackle violent thuggery on our streets has exacerbated long—standing capacity issues in our prisons. riots have pushed the system over the edge. we are talking of prison officer and what they have

to deal with. before we come to the calls, mark fairhurst from the prison officers association', young offers, what they have to face is unthinkable. a friend of my daughter's became a prison officer and it wasn't long before she saw people on ropes and she is in her early 20s. just terrible. it people on ropes and she is in her early 20s. just terrible.— early 20s. just terrible. it is. it is, the trauma _ early 20s. just terrible. it is. it is, the trauma we _ early 20s. just terrible. it is. it is, the trauma we face, - early 20s. just terrible. it is. it is, the trauma we face, we - early 20s. just terrible. it is. it is, the trauma we face, we getj is, the trauma we face, we get virtually no support from our employer when we face trauma. more and our members are suffering from ptsd and what we have found with new recruits, to become a prison officer, you go through a virtual process, you don't even have a face to face interview with the governor of the prison. the vetting is

inadequate. we get people slipping through the net who shouldn't be in thejob. it is through the net who shouldn't be in the job. it is six weeks' training to be a fully qualified prison officer. then you're going into an overcrowded jail full of inexperienced staff. we have had lots of year of experience to leave. it is the blind leading the blind. some on wings there is three staff supervises 300 prisoners, the most experienced officer had nine months in. we need a complete overhaul of the system. in. we need a complete overhaul of the system-— in. we need a complete overhaul of thes stem. , ., ., , the system. there is some pay awards auoin on, the system. there is some pay awards going on. would _ the system. there is some pay awards going on. would you — the system. there is some pay awards going on, would you consider - going on, would you consider industrial action. going on, would you consider industrialaction. it going on, would you consider industrial action.— going on, would you consider industrial action. it is illegal for us to take _ industrial action. it is illegal for us to take any _ industrial action. it is illegal for us to take any form _ industrial action. it is illegal for us to take any form of - industrial action. it is illegal for| us to take any form of industrial action. i can't even tell my members

to work to rule, to refuse overtime. would you lick that option? == would would you lick that option? » would you like that option? would you lick that option? -- would you like that option? the _ would you lick that option? -- would you like that option? the labour- you like that option? the labour government _ you like that option? the labour government said _ you like that option? the labour government said in _ you like that option? the labour government said in the - you like that option? the labour government said in the first - you like that option? the labour- government said in the first hundred days they were rescind anti—trade union regulations. we have had 30 years, we have been denied the right to strike, a basic human right. we expect the labour government to reinstate our right to strike, like the scottish government did in 2015 for the scottish prison service. let's speak to some callers. what do you have to say, will, you run a prison charity, thank you for getting in touch. how do we solve the prison crisis?— getting in touch. how do we solve the prison crisis? good morning. a massive question. _ the prison crisis? good morning. a massive question. i— the prison crisis? good morning. a massive question. i have _ the prison crisis? good morning. a massive question. i have not - massive question. i have not listened _ massive question. i have not listened to the entire show, but i

heard _ listened to the entire show, but i heard someone said it is a bit of everything _ heard someone said it is a bit of everything. we come to from it the point _ everything. we come to from it the point of— everything. we come to from it the point of view of the resettlement for people that are in prison coming out and _ for people that are in prison coming out and being released. and the reality— out and being released. and the reality is— out and being released. and the reality is that i think in the last count— reality is that i think in the last count the — reality is that i think in the last count the re—offending rate was 52%. half of— count the re—offending rate was 52%. half of the _ count the re—offending rate was 52%. half of the people in prison have already— half of the people in prison have already been to prison. and when youlike _ already been to prison. and when youlike look at that and we talk of freeing _ youlike look at that and we talk of freeing up — youlike look at that and we talk of freeing up space and the riots exacerbating the position, but the system _ exacerbating the position, but the system has been broken for years. if we could _ system has been broken for years. if we could drop 52% byi or 2% that, frees _ we could drop 52% byi or 2% that, frees up _ we could drop 52% byi or 2% that, frees up a — we could drop 52% byi or 2% that, frees up a huge amount of space. it comes_ frees up a huge amount of space. it comes down— frees up a huge amount of space. it comes down to as was said by your guest, _ comes down to as was said by your guest, is _ comes down to as was said by your guest, is it— comes down to as was said by your guest, is it is— comes down to as was said by your guest, is it isjust for years been an under—resourced part of our society — an under—resourced part of our society as _ an under—resourced part of our society. as a result what we see is people _ society. as a result what we see is people going to prison, prison not

serving _ people going to prison, prison not serving its — people going to prison, prison not serving its primary function which is rehabilitating people and getting them back in to society. we see people — them back in to society. we see people and and leave, it is part of their— people and and leave, it is part of their routine almost. i think what we need — their routine almost. i think what we need to— their routine almost. i think what we need to do, it is a long—term plan, _ we need to do, it is a long—term plan, but — we need to do, it is a long—term plan, but i — we need to do, it is a long—term plan, but i heard you talking about the system in the netherlands, if you look— the system in the netherlands, if you look at scandinavia, their re—offending rates are through the floor. _ re—offending rates are through the floor, because they take the investment to help people, because a lot of the _ investment to help people, because a lot of the people, don't get me wrong — lot of the people, don't get me wrong, there are people that deserve to be there. — wrong, there are people that deserve to be there, of course they do. but a huge _ to be there, of course they do. but a huge amount of the prison population are there for circumstantial factors, you commit the crime, — circumstantial factors, you commit the crime, you deserve to go to prison, — the crime, you deserve to go to prison, but— the crime, you deserve to go to prison, but we have to understand how someone gets to that point. how

do we _ how someone gets to that point. how do we shift _ how someone gets to that point. how do we shift people's identity and there _ do we shift people's identity and there is— do we shift people's identity and there is a — do we shift people's identity and there is a work to be done on public perception— there is a work to be done on public perception for employers. you there is a work to be done on public perception for employers.— perception for employers. you say the primary _ perception for employers. you say the primary purpose _ perception for employers. you say the primary purpose of— perception for employers. you say the primary purpose of prison, - perception for employers. you say l the primary purpose of prison, there will be a guide on that issue. there are certain organs in this country, certain newspapers and outlets who are angry about prisoners and saying, you know, lock as many up as possible and make the streets safer. but we hear what you say. peter, what do you want to say? hi. but we hear what you say. peter, what do you want to say? hi, nicky. if the coal what do you want to say? hi, nicky. if the goal rather _ what do you want to say? hi, nicky. if the goal rather is _ if the goal rather is transformation, - if the goal rather is i transformation, rather if the goal rather is - transformation, ratherthan transformation, rather than punishment. _ transformation, ratherthan punishment, we _ transformation, ratherthan punishment, we can- transformation, ratherthan punishment, we can work. transformation, ratherthan- punishment, we can work more transformation, ratherthan— punishment, we can work more towards getting _ punishment, we can work more towards getting the _ punishment, we can work more towards getting the crime — punishment, we can work more towards getting the crime rate _ punishment, we can work more towards getting the crime rate down. _ punishment, we can work more towards getting the crime rate down. because . getting the crime rate down. because we want _ getting the crime rate down. because we want to— getting the crime rate down. because we want to see — getting the crime rate down. because we want to see people _ getting the crime rate down. because we want to see people rehabilitated l we want to see people rehabilitated and so _ we want to see people rehabilitated and so i _ we want to see people rehabilitated and so i think— we want to see people rehabilitated and so i think restorative _ we want to see people rehabilitated and so i think restorative justice - and so i think restorative justice is potentially—

and so i think restorative justice is potentially much _ and so i think restorative justice is potentially much more - and so i think restorative justice . is potentially much more creative, because _ is potentially much more creative, because it — is potentially much more creative, because it humanises_ is potentially much more creative, because it humanises both - is potentially much more creative, because it humanises both victiml is potentially much more creative, i because it humanises both victim and offender, _ because it humanises both victim and offender, get— because it humanises both victim and offender, get humanised. _ because it humanises both victim and offender, get humanised. they- because it humanises both victim and offender, get humanised. they can. offender, get humanised. they can meet _ offender, get humanised. they can meet together~ _ offender, get humanised. they can meet together. and _ offender, get humanised. they can meet together. and hear— offender, get humanised. they can meet together. and hear each - offender, get humanised. they can. meet together. and hear each other's stories _ meet together. and hear each other's stories it— meet together. and hear each other's stories. , . . meet together. and hear each other's stories. , ., ., .., meet together. and hear each other's stories. , ., ., , ., stories. it is amazing. it can be a truly wonderful _ stories. it is amazing. it can be a truly wonderful remarkable - stories. it is amazing. it can be a| truly wonderful remarkable thing. but it is only applicable in limited circumstances?— but it is only applicable in limited circumstances? well, you might... 0bviously--- _ circumstances? well, you might... obviously... am _ circumstances? well, you might... obviously... am i _ circumstances? well, you might... obviously... am i wrong? - circumstances? well, you might... obviously... am i wrong? well, i circumstances? well, you might... | obviously... am i wrong? well, yes and no! because... _ obviously... am i wrong? well, yes and no! because... because - obviously... am i wrong? well, yes and no! because... because there l obviously... am i wrong? well, yes| and no! because... because there is and no! because... because there is a lot of— and no! because... because there is a lot of safety— and no! because... because there is a lot of safety to _ and no! because... because there is a lot of safety to consider. _ and no! because... because there is a lot of safety to consider. hang - a lot of safety to consider. hang on, this a lot of safety to consider. hang on. this is _ a lot of safety to consider. hang on, this is interesting, - a lot of safety to consider. hang on, this is interesting, how - a lot of safety to consider.- on, this is interesting, how would you do it with one of the rioters? well, for example, i heard a story about— well, for example, i heard a story about an — well, for example, i heard a story about an old — well, for example, i heard a story about an old friend _ well, for example, i heard a story about an old friend of— well, for example, i heard a story

about an old friend of tommy- about an old friend of tommy robinson. _ about an old friend of tommy robinson. i— about an old friend of tommy robinson, i was _ about an old friend of tommy robinson, i was listening - about an old friend of tommy robinson, i was listening to i about an old friend of tommyj robinson, i was listening to a podcast — robinson, i was listening to a podcast with _ robinson, i was listening to a podcast with your— robinson, i was listening to a podcast with your former- robinson, i was listening to a - podcast with your former colleague, john sopei. — podcast with your former colleague, john sopei. he — podcast with your former colleague, john sopel. he was— podcast with your former colleague, john sopel. he was interviewing - podcast with your former colleague, john sopel. he was interviewing a l john sopel. he was interviewing a former— john sopel. he was interviewing a former friend _ john sopel. he was interviewing a former friend of— john sopel. he was interviewing a former friend of tommy - john sopel. he was interviewing ai former friend of tommy robinson. john sopel. he was interviewing a - former friend of tommy robinson. he went, _ former friend of tommy robinson. he went, he _ former friend of tommy robinson. he went, he actually— former friend of tommy robinson. he went, he actually met _ former friend of tommy robinson. he went, he actually met refugees - former friend of tommy robinson. he went, he actually met refugees and l went, he actually met refugees and realised _ went, he actually met refugees and realised the — went, he actually met refugees and realised the desperate _ went, he actually met refugees and realised the desperate plights - went, he actually met refugees and realised the desperate plights of i realised the desperate plights of the human— realised the desperate plights of the human problem _ realised the desperate plights of the human problem that - realised the desperate plights of the human problem that was - realised the desperate plights of. the human problem that was there. and realised — the human problem that was there. and realised that _ the human problem that was there. and realised that he _ the human problem that was there. and realised that he was _ the human problem that was there. and realised that he was on - the human problem that was there. and realised that he was on the - and realised that he was on the wrong _ and realised that he was on the wrong track _ and realised that he was on the wrong track. so, _ and realised that he was on the wrong track. so, he _ and realised that he was on the wrong track. so, he left- and realised that he was on the wrong track. so, he left the... i wrong track. so, he left the... nationai— wrong track. so, he left the... national edl_ wrong track. so, he left the... national edl and _ wrong track. so, he left the... national edl and he _ wrong track. so, he left the... national edl and he was - wrong track. so, he left the... - national edl and he was regarded as a traitor~ _ national edl and he was regarded as atraitor. national edl and he was regarded as a traitor. ., , a traitor. some are, well, it is fascinating. — a traitor. some are, well, it is fascinating, some _ a traitor. some are, well, it is fascinating, some are - a traitor. some are, well, it is i fascinating, some are reachable, some less so, what do you think of that, will, you run a prison charity. take a rioter to a mosque and have tea and biscuits? the stats

on restorative _ and have tea and biscuits? the stats on restorative justice _ and have tea and biscuits? the stats on restorative justice are _ on restorative justice are impressive. it is not for every crime — impressive. it is not for every crime and _ impressive. it is not for every crime and every person. there is a huge _ crime and every person. there is a huge amount of nuance that goes into it. huge amount of nuance that goes into it but _ huge amount of nuance that goes into it but i _ huge amount of nuance that goes into it. but i suppose it is a fundamental principle and i listened to the _ fundamental principle and i listened to the same podcast that your guest mentioned, it is a fascinating listen — mentioned, it is a fascinating listen. but the underlying premise is that— listen. but the underlying premise is that actually a lot of the reason why people get into crime is because that is— why people get into crime is because that is all— why people get into crime is because that is all they have known. your other— that is all they have known. your other guest— that is all they have known. your other guest gave of the tommy robinson — other guest gave of the tommy robinson friend, that was all that he had _ robinson friend, that was all that he had known and all he listened to. when _ he had known and all he listened to. when we _ he had known and all he listened to. when we take someone out of that echo chamber and show them the real world _ echo chamber and show them the real world and _ echo chamber and show them the real world and what they think they thought— world and what they think they thought is a myth, all of a sudden we get _ thought is a myth, all of a sudden we get that awareness. with people in prison, _ we get that awareness. with people in prison, it — we get that awareness. with people in prison, it is how do we take them from _ in prison, it is how do we take them from the _ in prison, it is how do we take them from the life — in prison, it is how do we take them from the life they have and actually try and _ from the life they have and actually try and show them alternative routes and we _ try and show them alternative routes and we do _ try and show them alternative routes and we do that through the use of

sport— and we do that through the use of sport and — and we do that through the use of sport and we have courses and we have _ sport and we have courses and we have employment partners. that re . uires have employment partners. that requires funding _ have employment partners. twat requires funding and infrastructure. that is the point. this is where at the moment the prison system cannot deliver— the moment the prison system cannot deliver any— the moment the prison system cannot deliver any of this in house. because _ deliver any of this in house. because they don't have the funding, they don't— because they don't have the funding, they don't have the capacity. the amount _ they don't have the capacity. the amount of— they don't have the capacity. the amount of times we turn up to a prison— amount of times we turn up to a prison to — amount of times we turn up to a prison to run our courses and we will get — prison to run our courses and we will get turned' way, because they're — will get turned' way, because they're understaffed, there is not enough _ they're understaffed, there is not enough staff to be with us. it has to be _ enough staff to be with us. it has to be done — enough staff to be with us. it has to be done by the third sector. and we are _ to be done by the third sector. and we are thankfully in a good position. _ we are thankfully in a good position, the prisons are working. but the _ position, the prisons are working. but the whole, and then to build more _ but the whole, and then to build more prisons and your previous guest said it. _ more prisons and your previous guest said it. the _ more prisons and your previous guest said it, the billions they're putting _ said it, the billions they're putting into building prisons, it is mental, — putting into building prisons, it is mental, that can be repurposed... listen— mental, that can be repurposed... listen a _ mental, that can be repurposed... listen a text — mental, that can be repurposed... listen a text on that, mandy, coming up listen a text on that, mandy, coming up on the phones, you still have a chance to have your say on this huge

issue. here is a text, why are we giving importance to overcrowding prisons, we make prisons to be like hotels, they aren't afraid to go to prison. that is a feeling a lot of people have. you canjump in in a second, i want to bring mandy in first. please, iwill second, i want to bring mandy in first. please, i will bare that in mind. you're still there. mandy, good morning. your partner has been in prison for a long time. he is, i believe that he has completed his 22 year sentence. believe that he has completed his 22 yearsentence. i believe that he has completed his 22 year sentence. i have no interest in what that was for, because you can bring light to the situation of the prisons. what is he saying about it? what is your view of it? i prisons. what is he saying about it? what is your view of it?— what is your view of it? i have been visitin: what is your view of it? i have been visiting my — what is your view of it? i have been visiting my partner— what is your view of it? i have been visiting my partner for _ what is your view of it? i have been visiting my partner for the - what is your view of it? i have been visiting my partner for the past - what is your view of it? i have been visiting my partner for the past 22 l visiting my partner for the past 22 years from establishments to establishment all over britain. thinking in february that he will be

released and we can start back again where we left off. that released and we can start back again where we left off.— where we left off. that is a long time. it never— where we left off. that is a long time. it never happens, - where we left off. that is a long | time. it never happens, because where we left off. that is a long i time. it never happens, because of the backlog — time. it never happens, because of the backlog of— time. it never happens, because of the backlog of the _ time. it never happens, because of the backlog of the old _ time. it never happens, because of the backlog of the old government| time. it never happens, because of. the backlog of the old government it has been going on since then until now. we are still awaiting for a parole. what i was looking at, why solving the problem, this new government has come in and solved the problem where it has released prisoners with less than a four year sentence. what about the ones sit ting there for 20 odd years and haven't even been viewed. my partner was in a crime that he wasn't involved in, but underjoint enterprise you get attached to a thing that is not assigned to you. i'm saying that, i'm still here waiting and these prisons are getting overcrowded. you waiting and these prisons are getting overcrowded. you have been waitin: a getting overcrowded. you have been waiting a long _ getting overcrowded. you have been waiting a long time _ getting overcrowded. you have been waiting a long time for _ getting overcrowded. you have been waiting a long time for the _ getting overcrowded. you have been waiting a long time for the man - getting overcrowded. you have been waiting a long time for the man you | waiting a long time for the man you love. i waiting a long time for the man you love. . waiting a long time for the man you love-- what _ waiting a long time for the man you love-- what is _ waiting a long time for the man you love.- what is that _ waiting a long time for the man you love.- what is that for - waiting a long time for the man you love.- what is that for you. l love. i have. what is that for you. m son love. i have. what is that for you. my son was _

love. i have. what is that for you. my son was born _ love. i have. what is that for you. my son was born a _ love. i have. what is that for you. my son was born a month - love. i have. what is that for you. my son was born a month after. love. i have. what is that for you. | my son was born a month after he love. i have. what is that for you. - my son was born a month after he was arrested. we have been a connected family all over the 22 years we have been together. we have been waiting for him to come home and there is a crisis in prisons. i don't understand, if there is a crisis in prisons, release those that need releasing. he has done every education programme, he is a model prison, he has done everything that he is supposed to have done, but were still waiting. there is a crisis. release him. do were still waiting. there is a crisis. release him.- were still waiting. there is a crisis. release him. do you believe if thin . s crisis. release him. do you believe if things were _ crisis. release him. do you believe if things were better, _ crisis. release him. do you believe if things were better, if _ crisis. release him. do you believe if things were better, if there - crisis. release him. do you believe if things were better, if there was i if things were better, if there was more space, if there was more money in the system, if people thought about it in a more considered way, and a less sort of visceral way, do you think, how long ago do you think your partner would have been released?—

your partner would have been released? ., , �* ., .., , released? erm. .. if it wasn't a case of “oint released? erm. .. if it wasn't a case of joint enterprise, _ released? erm. .. if it wasn't a case of joint enterprise, i _ released? erm. .. if it wasn't a case ofjoint enterprise, i think - released? erm. .. if it wasn't a case of joint enterprise, i think that - released? erm. .. if it wasn't a case ofjoint enterprise, i think that he l ofjoint enterprise, i think that he would have been released on the day of the trial. . ~ would have been released on the day of the trial. ., ~ ., �* , of the trial. parking that, let's aet awa of the trial. parking that, let's get away from _ of the trial. parking that, let's get away from what _ of the trial. parking that, let's get away from what he - of the trial. parking that, let's get away from what he did, i of the trial. parking that, let's - get away from what he did, because that will take us down, 22 years is a long time, we have to acknowledge that, but that will take us down another path, if there was a better working system would he have got parole sooner?— working system would he have got parole sooner? yes. how much sooner do ou parole sooner? yes. how much sooner do you think? — parole sooner? yes. how much sooner do you think? at _ parole sooner? yes. how much sooner do you think? at least _ parole sooner? yes. how much sooner do you think? at least three _ parole sooner? yes. how much sooner do you think? at least three years - do you think? at least three years before his tariff _ do you think? at least three years before his tariff was _ do you think? at least three years before his tariff was up. _ do you think? at least three years before his tariff was up. what - do you think? at least three years before his tariff was up. what is i do you think? at least three years before his tariff was up. what is itj before his tariff was up. what is it like visiting? _ before his tariff was up. what is it like visiting? it _ before his tariff was up. what is it like visiting? it is _ before his tariff was up. what is it like visiting? it is a _ before his tariff was up. what is it like visiting? it is a pain. - before his tariff was up. what is it like visiting? it is a pain. it - before his tariff was up. what is it like visiting? it is a pain. it is - like visiting? it is a pain. it is anxiety the — like visiting? it is a pain. it is anxiety the night _ like visiting? it is a pain. it is anxiety the night before - like visiting? it is a pain. it is i anxiety the night before getting there to go there, be on time, have everything ready and make sure everyone is on time. go in for two hours, sitting there, visiting him and the leaving part is the breaking heart part. i have done it for

22iers 2 years it is still the same feeling. i 22iers 2 years it is still the same feelina. . . 22iers 2 years it is still the same feelina. .,, ., 22iers 2 years it is still the same feelina. ., , ., ., 22iers 2 years it is still the same feelin.. .,, ., ., ., ,~' 22iers 2 years it is still the same feelin.. .,, ., ., ., ,., feeling. i was going to ask you about that- — feeling. i was going to ask you about that. yes, _ feeling. i was going to ask you about that. yes, it _ feeling. i was going to ask you about that. yes, it is - feeling. i was going to ask you about that. yes, it is not - feeling. i was going to ask you about that. yes, it is not nice, j feeling. i was going to ask you l about that. yes, it is not nice, it is not nice _ about that. yes, it is not nice, it is not nice still. _ about that. yes, it is not nice, it is not nice still. i _ about that. yes, it is not nice, it is not nice still. i have _ about that. yes, it is not nice, it is not nice still. i have sacrificed| is not nice still. i have sacrificed a lot for him to come out and, yet, there is no light at the end of the tunnel. we are still waiting. that is part of the problem.— tunnel. we are still waiting. that is part of the problem. what is his life like on — is part of the problem. what is his life like on a _ is part of the problem. what is his life like on a daily _ is part of the problem. what is his life like on a daily basis, - is part of the problem. what is his life like on a daily basis, what - life like on a daily basis, what does he said about it is like in there? ., , does he said about it is like in there? .,, _ does he said about it is like in there? ., , ., there? people say that he is, that ou aet there? people say that he is, that you get institutionalised - there? people say that he is, that you get institutionalised after- you get institutionalised after 20—odd years. he has had beside him for the whole 22 years and he is still mentally the same person as he was outside to inside. but his day—to—day thing, it is the routine he has to keep going until the day he has to keep going until the day he gets an answer from someone to

stay that he is getting released. he is just waiting. stay that he is getting released. he is just waiting-— isjust waiting. what is it like when, isjust waiting. what is it like when. is _ isjust waiting. what is it like when. is it — isjust waiting. what is it like when, is it your _ isjust waiting. what is it like when, is it your son - isjust waiting. what is it like when, is it your son or - isjust waiting. what is it like - when, is it your son or daughter, sorry i can't remember. mr; when, is it your son or daughter, sorry i can't remember.- when, is it your son or daughter, sorry i can't remember. my son. my son is now _ sorry i can't remember. my son. my son is now 22 — sorry i can't remember. my son. my son is now 22 years _ sorry i can't remember. my son. my son is now 22 years old. _ sorry i can't remember. my son. my son is now 22 years old. what - sorry i can't remember. my son. my son is now 22 years old. what was l sorry i can't remember. my son. myj son is now 22 years old. what was it like when he — son is now 22 years old. what was it like when he was _ son is now 22 years old. what was it like when he was little, _ son is now 22 years old. what was it like when he was little, like - son is now 22 years old. what was it like when he was little, like nine - like when he was little, like nine or ten? to like when he was little, like nine or ten? ., . ~' like when he was little, like nine or ten? ., ., ,, .,, or ten? to take him there he was excited to — or ten? to take him there he was excited to see _ or ten? to take him there he was excited to see his _ or ten? to take him there he was excited to see his daddy - or ten? to take him there he was excited to see his daddy to - or ten? to take him there he was excited to see his daddy to leave | or ten? to take him there he was i excited to see his daddy to leave he was, daddy come with us, why can't you come with us, let's go and hold his hand and drag him. it was tear, heartbreakfor me his hand and drag him. it was tear, heartbreak for me and for his dad and for the little one. it was a mission to take him back, because of the same feeling, he didn't want to have that same feeling, daddy is not coming home, isaid he has have that same feeling, daddy is not coming home, i said he has got to work, he has to keep on working

until he comes home, until you reach 15, it was a different thing, he got to the myth, what is going on, this is a prison, this is what has been happening. and he is not coming home. what is going on? and we had to sit down and break it down to him and it broke him completely. he didn't want the visit prisons again. he didn't leave in the system. —— he didn't believe in the system. it was a barrier that broke and we couldn't get back. 50 a barrier that broke and we couldn't aet back. , ., a barrier that broke and we couldn't aet back. i. , a barrier that broke and we couldn't aet back. , ., get back. so your message is from very much — get back. so your message is from very much from. — get back. so your message is from very much from, well, _ get back. so your message is from very much from, well, the - get back. so your message is from very much from, well, the inside l very much from, well, the inside view, the backlog needs fixing. and i'm thinking of people whatever they think about your partner, what he did or didn't do, a lot of people would say that you are right on the money, or right on the lack of it. james in exeter and debbie a former

probation officer, james, how do we fix this, you worked in the criminal justice system, you have been an office rand a probation officer, we are at breaking point? yes. office r and a probation officer, we are at breaking point? yes, morning, nic . are at breaking point? yes, morning, nicky- yeah. — are at breaking point? yes, morning, nicky- yeah. like _ are at breaking point? yes, morning, nicky. yeah, like i _ are at breaking point? yes, morning, nicky. yeah, like i said _ are at breaking point? yes, morning, nicky. yeah, like i said to _ are at breaking point? yes, morning, nicky. yeah, like i said to your- nicky. yeah, like i said to your researcher, i have worked in the criminaljustice researcher, i have worked in the criminal justice system researcher, i have worked in the criminaljustice system in prisons for ten years and still do. the prisoners themselves, the people who work in the prison, they're a great bunch of people and we, they, we do, the most, one of the most difficult jobs in the most challenging circumstances. i am ten years in, i have seen, i have dealt with over 12 deaths in custody. i have seen some horrendous things. flan deaths in custody. i have seen some horrendous things.—

horrendous things. can you give us an idea of the _ horrendous things. can you give us an idea of the sort _ horrendous things. can you give us an idea of the sort of _ horrendous things. can you give us an idea of the sort of stuff - horrendous things. can you give us an idea of the sort of stuff you - horrendous things. can you give us an idea of the sort of stuff you had | an idea of the sort of stuff you had to encounter? i an idea of the sort of stuff you had to encounter?— an idea of the sort of stuff you had to encounter? i have come across... i have to encounter? i have come across... i have come _ to encounter? i have come across... i have come across _ to encounter? i have come across... i have come across people _ to encounter? i have come across... i have come across people hanging l to encounter? i have come across... | i have come across people hanging in their cells. i have come across people who have made themselves home made knives and they have cut themselves in front of me. i have seen things that i wouldn't want to really... you know say to anybody. you have given us a graphic idea obviously. my goodness me, how do you deal with that? does somebody help you in those situations. figs you deal with that? does somebody help you in those situations.- help you in those situations. as the revious help you in those situations. as the previous guy _ help you in those situations. as the previous guy said. _ help you in those situations. as the previous guy said, we _ help you in those situations. as the previous guy said, we have - help you in those situations. as the previous guy said, we have very - previous guy said, we have very little recourse to you know speak to professionals about this. you know, my, we speak to our peers, we form

little groups of officer, everyone who works in t prison, from prison officer to probation officers, we are all on the same team and no one else understands what goes on in a prison. behind those walls. you know, i used to talk to my wife about it and to my friends. and the absolute look of horror on their faces. i would come home from work and my white shirt would be covered in blood or i would have blood under my finger nails and when my wife asked what i did, ijust said i ended up rolling up on the floor with a guy who was slashing at me with a guy who was slashing at me with a guy who was slashing at me with a stanley knife in the works room or something.

for the most part the staff are a great team. but we are at breaking point and have been for five or six years. i have lost count of the number of prison ministers who say they are going to change this or change that. they are going to change this or change that-— they are going to change this or change that. prisons as well, full of bad people. — change that. prisons as well, full of bad people, but _ change that. prisons as well, full of bad people, but also - change that. prisons as well, full i of bad people, but also essentially good people too? 50. of bad people, but also essentially good people too?— of bad people, but also essentially good people too? so, i have worked with probably _ good people too? so, i have worked with probably some _ good people too? so, i have worked with probably some of— good people too? so, i have worked with probably some of the _ good people too? so, i have worked with probably some of the worst - good people too? so, i have worked with probably some of the worst of i with probably some of the worst of the worst, who you would, you know, you would hope were never back out on the streets. and i have also worked with an amazing lot of people who have done some bad things, but are essentially good people and the good that i have seen in them and the work that goes on in prisons to help these people is amazing. but could be so much more. so help these people is amazing. but could be so much more.— help these people is amazing. but could be so much more. so what was a aood da ?

could be so much more. so what was a good day? a — could be so much more. so what was a good day? a good _ could be so much more. so what was a good day? a good day. _ could be so much more. so what was a good day? a good day, a _ could be so much more. so what was a good day? a good day, a good - could be so much more. so what was a good day? a good day, a good day - could be so much more. so what was a good day? a good day, a good day was auoin in, good day? a good day, a good day was going in. and — good day? a good day, a good day was going in, and coming _ good day? a good day, a good day was going in, and coming out— good day? a good day, a good day was going in, and coming out without - going in, and coming out without something have happened to you or seeing something. i say that very bluntly. you know, the good days nowadays are fewer and fewer, which is a sad thing and i hate to say it. we have some good days, but they are getting less and less, as time goes on. ., , getting less and less, as time goes on. .,, ., getting less and less, as time goes on. ., ., on. i was looking at a government web-site about _ on. i was looking at a government web-site about some _ on. i was looking at a government web-site about some of— on. i was looking at a government web-site about some of the - on. i was looking at a government i web-site about some of the services web—site about some of the services available in prison. wandsworth prison says, we have debbie coming up. james it is extraordinary hearing your experience. wand worth prison, each person gets an induction that lasts a week and they will meet professionals to help with health and well being, sexual

health, substance abuse, skills and education and training on release, managing emotions, everyone finds out about the rules. the previous bit, when i mentioned that before when we very discussing this, people say it is pie in the sky, is it? do ou say it is pie in the sky, is it? do you know _ say it is pie in the sky, is it? idir’r you know what? the say it is pie in the sky, is it? dr? you know what? the different prisons, we all try and do the same thing. again it comes down to lack of staff, lack of training. you know, i have been in the prison system for ten years... know, i have been in the prison system for ten years. . .- system for ten years... visiting halls, system for ten years... visiting halls. gyms. — system for ten years... visiting halls, gyms, classrooms, - system for ten years... visiting halls, gyms, classrooms, if- system for ten years... visiting i halls, gyms, classrooms, if you're in your cell 23 hours a day? abshd in your cell 23 hours a day? and there is your — in your cell 23 hours a day? and there is your we _ in your cell 23 hours a day? situc there is your we could talk in your cell 23 hours a day? fific there is your we could talk about this for hours, there is your biggest problem. all prisons have all those things, however if you do

not have the staff and the trained staff, and staff who are adequately trained, it doesn't get used. you only have to go on the ministry of justice web—site and i think at the minute this 372jobs, justice web—site and i think at the minute this 372 jobs, you know for specialist staff, the staff that work in the workshops. james, amazini work in the workshops. james, amazing call- _ work in the workshops. james, amazing call. mandy _ work in the workshops. james, amazing call. mandy as - work in the workshops. james, amazing call. mandy as well. l work in the workshops. james, i amazing call. mandy as well. debbie amazing call. mandy as well. debbie a former probation officers, over a long period of time. loads of experience. how do we solve the prison crisis. which will have to interrupt you in a moment as our viewers leave. but you're on the telly and on the radio. in a minute, giving your wisdom, what do we do? i think we should review the offender rehabilitation act, which came in in 2014. which meant all those who go

to prison for a day or up to two years are released with supervision for a year, which means that magistrates and crown courts get to give one person prison and probation, whereas previously those who didn't present a risk to the public could be given a rehabilitation order in the community and rather than be imprisoned for a week or a month in which time they can't do any courses of anything. i am surejames which time they can't do any courses of anything. i am sure james would agree with that. pit it is a pointless exercise and it has filled up pointless exercise and it has filled up the prisons with short—term prisoners. brute up the prisons with short-term prisoners-— up the prisons with short-term risoners. ~ ,, .,~i ., , prisoners. we will speak to somebody who was sent — prisoners. we will speak to somebody who was sent to _ prisoners. we will speak to somebody who was sent to prison _ prisoners. we will speak to somebody who was sent to prison for _ prisoners. we will speak to somebody who was sent to prison for drugs i prisoners. we will speak to somebody who was sent to prison for drugs and l who was sent to prison for drugs and anti—social behaviour eight years ago and was left addicted to drugs. that will be coming up. it is greg on the radio. so you can listen to that. but our viewers leaves now and

thank you forjoining us and listening to this discussion. hello again. as we go through this week, the weather is going to take an autumnal turn. we are looking at some heavy rain at times, particularly so in the north—west. it is likely to be windy with gales. but there will be some sunshine. today, low pressure is driving our weather. you can see the fronts crossing us from monday into tuesday and what that is doing is bringing in rain and windy conditions. the driest conditions will be in the south—east. as the rain advances to the east the cloud will build and it is going to be windy. particularly so through the irish sea, with gales, but windy on the coasts adjacent to the irish sea. temperatures 13 to 25. tonight the

rain advances eastwards, you could still have the odd heavy burst. some clear skies. still windy. watch out for the super moon. still humid in the south—east. but not so for the rest of the uk. that takes us into tomorrow. we start with the dregs of today's front producing cloud. that clears and we are into sunshine and showers. wind yip windy in the north and the odd rumble of thunder. temperatures 13 to 24. on wednesday we have a ridge of high pressure in the south and we start off on a fine note with scattered showers in the west. low pressure will bring in heavy rain, particularly in western scotland and that will get into northern ireland and the rest of scotland. it is going to be windy.

temperatures 13 to about 22. into thursday, low pressure still us with, this cold front producing rain and tied up in this is the remnants of hurricane ernesto. temperatures on thursday 14 in lerwick, to 22 in the south—east.

live from london, this is bbc news. "a decisive moment for the gaza ceasefire talks". america's top diplomat is in israel for discussions as the israelis and hamas both blame each other for blocking a deal. kamala harris is in chicago for the democratic national convention where she'll be formally confirmed as the party's presidential candidate to face donald trump in november's election. emergency measures are brought in to ease prison overcrowding in england as more rioters are sent to jail. president zelensky says ukraine wants to create a buffer zone in russia's kursk region after destroying multiple bridges. we find out why london zoo has removed banksy�*s final artwork in his animal—themed series. and, as thousands gather in edinburgh, we will have the lastest from the city's spectacular festival fringe.

hello, i'm lauren taylor.