companies that did the work at the companies that did the work at grenfell. how competent were they? and then there is the fire service, which didn't have a plan to evacuate a building despite the fact that it had lost control of this fire. if it had, i think many, many more people would have survived. now, the survivors and the bereaved will get answers tomorrow. what they won't get is justice, answers tomorrow. what they won't get isjustice, because answers tomorrow. what they won't get is justice, because the police have decided to wait till this inquiry to prosecute or to plan prosecutions. that's not going to happen for another 18 months, and that's nearly ten years after grenfell. tom, i know you will be reporting extensively on this tomorrow. a new street in the czech capital prague has been named in honour of sir nicholas winton, who helped save hundreds ofjewish children from the nazis. 669 young children escaped in the nine months leading up to the outbreak of world war two. the street is next to a railway station from where tens of thousands of people were deported during the holocaust. he died in 2015 at the age of 106.

time for a look at the weather. here's stav. this programme continues on bbc one. the channel for three years. can labour stop the boats and the deaths? plus, a commons vote next week on labour's decision to scrap winter fuel payments for 10 million pensioners — has keir starmer got another rebellion on his hands?

welcome to newsnight. we are live monday to friday with late night interviews and insight. with us this evening, margaret hodge, former labour mp and former chair of thejewish labour movement, she is into the lords tomorrow. so it will be baroness margaret hodge. anne—marie trevelyan, former conservative trade secretary and defence minister, and faiza shaheen, an economist who stood as an independent candidate in the general election after being dropped by labour. and nick is here as always. later we'll hear from a palestinian journalist in gaza who welcomes the government's decision in the last 2a hours to suspend 30 arms export licences to israel because of a clear risk, said

the foreign secretary, that certain items might be used by israel in a serious violation of humanitarian law in gaza. first tonight, we know a pregnant woman is among the 12 people who have died, including several children, after a boat carrying migrants capsized in the channel today. according to the rescuers, the bottom of the boatjust ripped completely open. let's talk to charlotte kwa ntes who works for a french refugee charity called utopia 56 — and they offer emergency support over the phone to people who call them, in distress, in the water. is that correct? yes, not only on the phone but we have an emergency line and emergency number that people can contact us all day and all night whatever the situation. and it happens that sometimes people contact us when they are in distress in the middle of the channel. and

when they reach the state emergency number, the coastguard, so we do help them to contact them. and number, the coastguard, so we do help them to contact them. and they have our help them to contact them. and they have your number _ help them to contact them. and they have your number because _ help them to contact them. and they have your number because you - help them to contact them. and they have your number because you go i have your number because you go around i understand to the various groups of people warning them not to get into the boats and giving them your numberjust in case. when was the last time you receive such a distress call? we the last time you receive such a distress call?— distress call? we had a distress call last night — distress call? we had a distress call last night around _ distress call? we had a distress call last night around 4am. - distress call? we had a distress call last night around 4am. but| distress call? we had a distress i call last night around 4am. but we also give the state emergency number because it is the first number that everyone should have when they take to the sea whether you are a fisherman or tourist or someone trying to cross the channel so we give all the information to prevent people taking risks when they try to cross the sea. and obviously we have to give information about the precautions they have to take undertaking this journey. can

precautions they have to take undertaking this journey. undertaking this “ourney. can i ask ou, undertaking this “ourney. can i ask you. charloue. — undertaking this journey. can i ask you, charlotte, what _ undertaking this journey. can i ask you, charlotte, what are _ undertaking this journey. can i ask you, charlotte, what are those - undertaking this journey. can i ask. you, charlotte, what are those phone calls like when you get them? so calls like when you get them? sr when we get them it can be about anything. it can be about people needing blankets or food anything. it can be about people needing blankets orfood in anything. it can be about people needing blankets or food in the street or in the camps. and when it is in the sea people call us and they tell us that they have a problem most of the time on their boat whether it is the engine or the boat whether it is the engine or the boat starting to break up or if someone is feeling bad inside the boat. so we ask all the questions about how many people there are, if there is women and children, if there is women and children, if there are people who have fallen into the sea. if they can see anything around them like other boats. etc, etc. and they send us

their exact location. but boats. etc, etc. and they send us their exact location.— boats. etc, etc. and they send us their exact location. but they must be absolutely _ their exact location. but they must be absolutely terrified? _ their exact location. but they must be absolutely terrified? it - their exact location. but they must be absolutely terrified? it is - be absolutely terrified? it is terrifying- — be absolutely terrified? it is terrifying. and _ be absolutely terrified? it is terrifying. and when - be absolutely terrified? it 3 terrifying. and when they call be absolutely terrified? it 1 terrifying. and when they call it is really stressful. for them and for us as well. it is a very tense moment. and we have to be quick and efficient. and we have to gather the maximum information to ensure that we have everything that we can send to the coastguard. because after the call we send an e—mail to the coastguard and then they launch as quickly as possible and help the people in the sea.— quickly as possible and help the people in the sea. charlotte, thank ou for people in the sea. charlotte, thank you for talking _ people in the sea. charlotte, thank you for talking to _ people in the sea. charlotte, thank you for talking to our— people in the sea. charlotte, thank you for talking to our audience - people in the sea. charlotte, thank you for talking to our audience in i you for talking to our audience in the uk, we appreciate it. charlotte kwantes from utopia 56. margaret hodge, we know the labour government want to smash the gangs, that is what keir starmer said through the

election campaign. do you think it is possible to do that and if so how long might that take? i is possible to do that and if so how long might that take?— is possible to do that and if so how long might that take? i wish i knew the answer to _ long might that take? i wish i knew the answer to that. _ long might that take? i wish i knew the answer to that. i _ long might that take? i wish i knew the answer to that. i think - long might that take? i wish i knew the answer to that. i think the - the answer to that. i think the strategy is absolutely right. these are organised criminals, no different from criminals trafficking in drugs or born and child abuse or guns. and if you want to stop this part of this bit of immigration and we have to remember it is only a tiny bit, you have to go after those organised criminals. so i think the way that we have really focused the resources on both ensuring that we can deal and actually track them down and i have to say our relationship with europe is really important. many of these boats are made in turkey and go over to germany and they are driven over to france where desperate people, absolutely desperate people and charlotte's work, you have to hand it to her because what she's doing

is incredibly important, fantastically stressful and utterly fa ntastically stressful a nd utterly awful. fantastically stressful and utterly awful. �* a fantastically stressful and utterly awful. �* ~. ,~ fantastically stressful and utterly awful. �* a, i. ., fantastically stressful and utterly awful. �* ., awful. anne-marie trevelyan, do you think this is — awful. anne-marie trevelyan, do you think this is the — awful. anne-marie trevelyan, do you think this is the right _ awful. anne-marie trevelyan, do you think this is the right strategy - awful. anne-marie trevelyan, do you think this is the right strategy now i think this is the right strategy now because you're a tory government tried for two years to stop the boats and failed?— tried for two years to stop the boats and failed? . t, , . . boats and failed? stop the language that the former _ boats and failed? stop the language that the former prime _ boats and failed? stop the language that the former prime minister - that the former prime minister rishi sunak— that the former prime minister rishi sunak used but honestly i'm not sure that was— sunak used but honestly i'm not sure that was the — sunak used but honestly i'm not sure that was the three words i would have _ that was the three words i would have chosen when he announced it. that i_ have chosen when he announced it. that i think— have chosen when he announced it. that i think was an optimistic statement to make. and it failed. it set a _ statement to make. and it failed. it set a challenge that was going to be impossible to solve. the challenge was to _ impossible to solve. the challenge was to smash the gangs and bills much _ was to smash the gangs and bills much better returns programmes and is the _ much better returns programmes and is the former foreign office minister— is the former foreign office minister i got returns with bangladesh and vietnam which had been impossible so a lot of people came _ been impossible so a lot of people came from — been impossible so a lot of people came from those countries and we could _ came from those countries and we could not— came from those countries and we could not send them home and we now can. could not send them home and we now can the _ could not send them home and we now can. the albanian route has also been _ can. the albanian route has also been effectively struck by having an agreement with that country so smashing the gangs is one part but there _ smashing the gangs is one part but there are _ smashing the gangs is one part but there are many aspects to this ann—margret makes the point that the

tools of— ann—margret makes the point that the tools of the _ ann—margret makes the point that the tools of the trade that the smugglers are using not only to move people _ smugglers are using not only to move pecule first _ smugglers are using not only to move people first from syria and afghanistan alongside the economic migrants _ afghanistan alongside the economic migrants coming up from the south, enormous _ migrants coming up from the south, enormous movements of people, there are so— enormous movements of people, there are so many— enormous movements of people, there are so many aspects to this. smashing _ are so many aspects to this. smashing the gangs is one of them and i_ smashing the gangs is one of them and i think— smashing the gangs is one of them and i think that we all know that but there's gap now whether or not people _ but there's gap now whether or not people thought the rwanda policy could _ people thought the rwanda policy could work but it never had a chance because _ could work but it never had a chance because the — could work but it never had a chance because the election came just before — because the election came just before it — because the election came just before it was about to start. well to be honest _ before it was about to start. well to be honest the _ before it was about to start. .11 to be honest the prime before it was about to start. -ll to be honest the prime minister rishi sunak call the election before any planes took off. that rishi sunak call the election before any planes took off.— any planes took off. that is true but it was _ any planes took off. that is true but it was there _ any planes took off. that is true but it was there as _ any planes took off. that is true but it was there as a _ any planes took off. that is true but it was there as a deterrent i any planes took off. that is true i but it was there as a deterrent and whether— but it was there as a deterrent and whether that was the right deterrent or not— whether that was the right deterrent or not we _ whether that was the right deterrent or not we now will not know. but importantly there was be a deterrent and we _ importantly there was be a deterrent and we will— importantly there was be a deterrent and we will see these numbers continue — and we will see these numbers continue for as long as there's a sense _ continue for as long as there's a sense that — continue for as long as there's a sense that you cannot just get yourself — sense that you cannot just get yourself into the uk and that is a very important part missing at the moment — very important part missing at the moment. t, . ~' very important part missing at the moment. ., ., ,, ., ., ., ., moment. you talked about rwanda for two ears moment. you talked about rwanda for two years and — moment. you talked about rwanda for two years and that _ moment. you talked about rwanda for

two years and that deterrent _ two years and that deterrent conversation did not work. faiza shaheen, people getting on the boats from northern france, they're coming from northern france, they're coming from france, it is a safe country. do you have sympathy? i do have sympathy— do you have sympathy? i do have sympathy and _ do you have sympathy? i do have sympathy and i_ do you have sympathy? i do have sympathy and i think _ do you have sympathy? i do have sympathy and i think it's - do you have sympathy? i do have. sympathy and i think it's important to really— sympathy and i think it's important to really address _ sympathy and i think it's important to really address the _ sympathy and i think it's important to really address the issue - sympathy and i think it's important to really address the issue of- sympathy and i think it's important to really address the issue of howl to really address the issue of how to really address the issue of how to stop _ to really address the issue of how to stop the — to really address the issue of how to stop the boats, _ to really address the issue of how to stop the boats, that _ to really address the issue of how to stop the boats, that rhetoric i to really address the issue of how. to stop the boats, that rhetoric has not worked, — to stop the boats, that rhetoric has not worked, not _ to stop the boats, that rhetoric has not worked, not happen. _ to stop the boats, that rhetoric has not worked, not happen. there - to stop the boats, that rhetoric has not worked, not happen. there is. to stop the boats, that rhetoric has. not worked, not happen. there is no matter— not worked, not happen. there is no matter smashing _ not worked, not happen. there is no matter smashing the _ not worked, not happen. there is no matter smashing the gangs - not worked, not happen. there is no matter smashing the gangs that - matter smashing the gangs that really— matter smashing the gangs that really is — matter smashing the gangs that really is going _ matter smashing the gangs that really is going to _ matter smashing the gangs that really is going to end _ matter smashing the gangs that really is going to end this - matter smashing the gangs that . really is going to end this problem because _ really is going to end this problem because as — really is going to end this problem because as long _ really is going to end this problem because as long as _ really is going to end this problem because as long as those - really is going to end this problem because as long as those people l really is going to end this problem . because as long as those people have those _ because as long as those people have those needs— because as long as those people have those needs and _ because as long as those people have those needs and are _ because as long as those people have those needs and are desperate - because as long as those people have those needs and are desperate and i those needs and are desperate and want to— those needs and are desperate and want to come — those needs and are desperate and want to come here _ those needs and are desperate and want to come here and _ those needs and are desperate and want to come here and they- those needs and are desperate and want to come here and they cannot play through— want to come here and they cannot play through the _ want to come here and they cannot play through the safe _ want to come here and they cannot play through the safe routes, i want to come here and they cannot play through the safe routes, thenj play through the safe routes, then they will— play through the safe routes, then they will be — play through the safe routes, then they will be these _ play through the safe routes, then they will be these people. - play through the safe routes, then they will be these people. people i they will be these people. people that will— they will be these people. people that will prey _ they will be these people. people that will prey on _ they will be these people. people that will prey on them _ they will be these people. people that will prey on them and - they will be these people. people that will prey on them and find i that will prey on them and find different— that will prey on them and find different ways. _ that will prey on them and find different ways. so _ that will prey on them and find different ways. so for- that will prey on them and find different ways. so for instance | different ways. so for instance france — different ways. so for instance france gets _ different ways. so for instance france gets more _ different ways. so for instance france gets more money- different ways. so for instance france gets more money to i different ways. so for instance i france gets more money to police different ways. so for instance - france gets more money to police the borders— france gets more money to police the borders and _ france gets more money to police the borders and they _ france gets more money to police the borders and they have _ france gets more money to police the borders and they have found - france gets more money to police the borders and they have found other. borders and they have found other ways _ borders and they have found other ways to _ borders and they have found other ways to come _ borders and they have found other ways to come. less _ borders and they have found other ways to come. less safe _ borders and they have found other ways to come. less safe places i borders and they have found other ways to come. less safe places to| ways to come. less safe places to stop the _ ways to come. less safe places to stop the boats _ ways to come. less safe places to stop the boats. so _ ways to come. less safe places to stop the boats. so we _ ways to come. less safe places to stop the boats. so we have - ways to come. less safe places to stop the boats. so we have to i stop the boats. so we have to understand _ stop the boats. so we have to understand that _ stop the boats. so we have to understand that this - stop the boats. so we have to understand that this has i stop the boats. so we have to i understand that this has failed, failed _ understand that this has failed, failed as— understand that this has failed, failed as an _ understand that this has failed, failed as an approach _ understand that this has failed, failed as an approach and i understand that this has failed, failed as an approach and is i understand that this has failed, j failed as an approach and is not humane — failed as an approach and is not humane so _ failed as an approach and is not humane so it— failed as an approach and is not humane so it is— failed as an approach and is not humane so it is impractical, i failed as an approach and is not i humane so it is impractical, immoral and inefficient— humane so it is impractical, immoral and inefficient and _ humane so it is impractical, immoral and inefficient and we _ humane so it is impractical, immoral and inefficient and we need - humane so it is impractical, immoral and inefficient and we need to - humane so it is impractical, immoral and inefficient and we need to take l and inefficient and we need to take and inefficient and we need to take a look— and inefficient and we need to take a look at _ and inefficient and we need to take a look at this— and inefficient and we need to take a look at this again. _ and inefficient and we need to take a look at this again. the _ and inefficient and we need to take a look at this again. the rhetoric. a look at this again. the rhetoric and it— a look at this again. the rhetoric and it is— a look at this again. the rhetoric and it is a — a look at this again. the rhetoric and it is a shame _ a look at this again. the rhetoric and it is a shame to— a look at this again. the rhetoric and it is a shame to see - a look at this again. the rhetoric and it is a shame to see labourl and it is a shame to see labour playing — and it is a shame to see labour playing into _ and it is a shame to see labour playing into this _ and it is a shame to see labour playing into this rhetoric- and it is a shame to see labour.

playing into this rhetoric because it is damaging _ playing into this rhetoric because it is damaging for— playing into this rhetoric because it is damaging for this— playing into this rhetoric because it is damaging for this country. playing into this rhetoric because | it is damaging for this country and we've _ it is damaging for this country and we've seen— it is damaging for this country and we've seen that _ it is damaging for this country and we've seen that with _ it is damaging for this country and we've seen that with the - it is damaging for this country and we've seen that with the riots i it is damaging for this country and we've seen that with the riots a i we've seen that with the riots a month— we've seen that with the riots a month ago— we've seen that with the riots a month ago these _ we've seen that with the riots a month ago these racist - we've seen that with the riots a month ago these racist riots i we've seen that with the riots a l month ago these racist riots and people _ month ago these racist riots and people going _ month ago these racist riots and people going and _ month ago these racist riots and people going and setting - month ago these racist riots and people going and setting hotelsl people going and setting hotels alight — people going and setting hotels alight really— people going and setting hotels alight. really horrific _ people going and setting hotels alight. really horrific and - people going and setting hotels alight. really horrific and a i people going and setting hotels alight. really horrific and a to l alight. really horrific and a to the question— alight. really horrific and a to the question of the _ alight. really horrific and a to the question of the kind of— alight. really horrific and a to the| question of the kind of country we want _ question of the kind of country we want to— question of the kind of country we want to be — question of the kind of country we want to be— want to be. what is the rhetoric you sa that want to be. what is the rhetoric you say that labour— want to be. what is the rhetoric you say that labour are _ want to be. what is the rhetoric you say that labour are using? - want to be. what is the rhetoric you say that labour are using? first i want to be. what is the rhetoric you say that labour are using? first of. say that labour are using? first of all i think say that labour are using? first of all i think with — say that labour are using? first of all i think with organised - say that labour are using? first of all i think with organised crime i say that labour are using? first of| all i think with organised crime you still have to tackle organised crime. �* , , ., ., ., crime. but it is “ust not going to do it. but — crime. but it is “ust not going to do it. tumou— crime. but it isjust not going to do it. but you have _ crime. but it isjust not going to do it. but you have to _ crime. but it isjust not going to do it. but you have to do i crime. but it isjust not going to do it. but you have to do it, i crime. but it isjust not going to do it. but you have to do it, you said it is a _ do it. but you have to do it, you said it is a waste _ do it. but you have to do it, you said it is a waste but _ do it. but you have to do it, you said it is a waste but i _ do it. but you have to do it, you said it is a waste but i think i do it. but you have to do it, you said it is a waste but i think it's| said it is a waste but i think it's important to tackle organised crime and then beyond that of course we need a system, we have to deal with asylum. the policy is that we are going to reintroduce assessing asylum seeker applications quickly and efficiently and that is one of the things that yvette cooper and keir starmer said they will do. that will reduce the _ keir starmer said they will do. that will reduce the backlog. but i keir starmer said they will do. that | will reduce the backlog. but beyond that, once you've _ will reduce the backlog. but beyond that, once you've done _ will reduce the backlog. but beyond that, once you've done that - will reduce the backlog. but beyond that, once you've done that those i that, once you've done that those that, once you've done that those that are illegitimate asylum seekers

should be, that are legitimate asylum seekers should be settled in asylum seekers should be settled in a welcoming way. i think the rhetoric of the last government, it was terrible for getting social cohesion in the country and we must change that and talk positively. i am an immigrant and i came here fleeing from the fear of persecution so i do feel this passionately in my bones that we have to change the rhetoric. if my dad was alive today and knew what his daughter had achieved he would be absolutely over the moon that i become a person in british society. so rhetoric is changing but part of it, if you're going to have an acceptance of people coming to the country you have to ensure that you control the borders. and that is when you assess people and then those that are not eligible to state you have to have a quick returns policy. i know that anne—marie you have tried and it was not good enough and i think equally people who come here and have

permission to stay and are granted that, if they then break the rules and do not play with the rules then again have to go and that gets the acceptance in the country of other people coming in. {131 acceptance in the country of other people coming in.— acceptance in the country of other people coming in. of course there are some really _ people coming in. of course there are some really big _ people coming in. of course there are some really big challenges i people coming in. of course there are some really big challenges to | are some really big challenges to being _ are some really big challenges to being able to make that work. and i completely— being able to make that work. and i completely hear you and one of the reasons _ completely hear you and one of the reasons that we have this extraordinary kind of 4—way election for the _ extraordinary kind of 4—way election for the first — extraordinary kind of 4—way election for the first time, as someone who was unexpectedly perhaps lost a seat because _ was unexpectedly perhaps lost a seat because reform uk split the vote and that happened in a lot of places is there _ that happened in a lot of places is there are — that happened in a lot of places is there are a lot of people who just feel this — there are a lot of people who just feel this is — there are a lot of people who just feel this is overwhelming and their voice _ feel this is overwhelming and their voice as— feel this is overwhelming and their voice as british citizens is as valid — voice as british citizens is as valid as _ voice as british citizens is as valid as those like aso think that perhaps— valid as those like aso think that perhaps there is a way to do this but there — perhaps there is a way to do this but there are many people who just feel that _ but there are many people who just feel that there should be a good system — feel that there should be a good system. you make an important point that there _ system. you make an important point that there needs to be more points perhaps— that there needs to be more points perhaps where those who want to seek asylum _ perhaps where those who want to seek asylum can _ perhaps where those who want to seek asylum can do so from further afield — asylum can do so from further afield. that perhaps there are not enough _ afield. that perhaps there are not enough of— afield. that perhaps there are not enough of those sites. interesting when _ enough of those sites. interesting when ukraine kicked off we sent a

series— when ukraine kicked off we sent a series of— when ukraine kicked off we sent a series of teams further across europe — series of teams further across europe to _ series of teams further across europe to try to help process those refugee _ europe to try to help process those refugee applicants. but actually there _ refugee applicants. but actually there are so many british people who are very— there are so many british people who are very generous hearted and i think— are very generous hearted and i think the — are very generous hearted and i think the ukraine scheme demonstrated that extraordinary warmth — demonstrated that extraordinary warmth for people generally in crisis — warmth for people generally in crisis. �* ., warmth for people generally in crisis. �* . ., , warmth for people generally in crisis. �* . . , , crisis. but there are many people in tenuine crisis. but there are many people in genuine crisis _ crisis. but there are many people in genuine crisis and _ crisis. but there are many people in genuine crisis and partly _ crisis. but there are many people in genuine crisis and partly because i genuine crisis and partly because the action this country has taken a different part is the world so really important that we talk about the safe routes and that people can apply from elsewhere. but the rhetoric has been a part deportation and it is important that we do not just say look at this person, this incredible sportsperson as if anyone coming here is only allowed to be given a chance to become an mp or whatever but it is just normal people who just want the best for the kids. l people who “ust want the best for the kids. ,., , people who “ust want the best for the kids. , , ., . the kids. i will pause you there. we will come back _ the kids. i will pause you there. we will come back to _ the kids. i will pause you there. we will come back to you _ the kids. i will pause you there. we will come back to you shortly. i mps will get the chance to vote next wk on whether they suppport or oppose the government's plan to scrap winter fuel payments

for millions of pensioners. nick, what's going to happen? on tuesday there is due to be secondary legislation to introduce this means testing of the winter fuel allowance. normally secondary legislation is a former mps could tell you normally goes through on the nod but what has happened here is the conservative opposition the old phrase is they have prayed against it and because they are praying against it there has been a parliamentaryjargon, the government parliamentary jargon, the government by parliamentaryjargon, the government by convention is then obliged to allow time for a vote. so it is a vote on a government measure but triggered by the conservative party but it is a government measure and so no doubt they will have to put a three line whip on it which is the government labour mps will be expected to vote for it. rachel reeves spoke about this in the commons today. and i made difficult decisions, some very difficult decisions, to put the public finances on a sustainable footing.

they were tough decisions but they were the right decisions in the circumstances that we face. this includes the decision to make the winter fuel payment better targeted so pensioners who need it most still get it alongside pension credit. targeting winter fuel payments saves around {1.5 billion per year to support the public finances. let's talk to rachael maskell who is a labour mp who has been raising this issue and i wonder if i could ask you first of all how worried you are about some of your constituents? like many of my colleagues, i have been reading those e—mails and handwritten letters from constituents, expressing just how frightened they are about the winter which is almost upon us. thea;t frightened they are about the winter which is almost upon us.— which is almost upon us. they are frightened? _ which is almost upon us. they are frightened? that _ which is almost upon us. they are frightened? that is _ which is almost upon us. they are frightened? that is the _ which is almost upon us. they are frightened? that is the word i which is almost upon us. they are frightened? that is the word you | frightened? that is the word you would use and the word they are using? would use and the word they are usint ? ., , would use and the word they are usint ? . , ., , ., using? that is the word they are usint. using? that is the word they are using- they _ using? that is the word they are using- they are _ using? that is the word they are using. they are sending - using? that is the word they are using. they are sending in i using? that is the word they are using. they are sending in their| using. they are sending in their budgets and they are simply not adding up. i looked at my constituency, where house prices rose by 11.9% this year. that is £382 above the rise in the state

pension which means they are already in deficit. we don't have the cost of living payments and if we take away the winter fuel payment as well from those pensioners, they are going to be struggling to pay their bills. of going to be struggling to pay their bills. of course, we know that older people are frightened about getting into debt, and therefore, the big question is, will they switch their heating on? and of course, we know already, there's about £3 billion worth of unpaid bills across the country. that came out in the report which caroline flint set out over the summer. we just know that the deficit will grow but also, if people are cold, then they are more likely to get ill with heart attack, stroke, pneumonia, or even other respiratory illnesses or hypothermia. that means they will go and see their gp, they will go to hospital, and tragically, research shows that 4950 people did not make it through because their houses were cold. we are really worried. you it through because their houses were cold. we are really worried.- cold. we are really worried. you met rachel reeves _ cold. we are really worried. you met rachel reeves yesterday _ cold. we are really worried. you met

rachel reeves yesterday to - cold. we are really worried. you met rachel reeves yesterday to discuss i rachel reeves yesterday to discuss this, i understand. rachel reeves yesterday to discuss this, iunderstand. do rachel reeves yesterday to discuss this, i understand. do you feel that she understands your concerns? l she understands your concerns? i think mps across the board have raised those concerns are. ls think mps across the board have raised those concerns are. is she engaging? _ raised those concerns are. is she engaging? she — raised those concerns are. is she engaging? she is _ raised those concerns are. is she engaging? she is listening, i raised those concerns are. is she| engaging? she is listening, there raised those concerns are. is she i engaging? she is listening, there is no doubt that _ engaging? she is listening, there is no doubt that everyone _ engaging? she is listening, there is no doubt that everyone has - engaging? she is listening, there is no doubt that everyone has to i no doubt that everyone has to listen. i appreciate she inherited a really difficult economic situation and she addressed that injuly and rightly so, to stop a run on the pound. however, this particular measure could end up costing more because people are dependent on the nhs and that will have a huge impact. mps recognise there are many people which receive the winter fuel payment to quite frankly don't need it. in that case, we have to say, when the budgets are tight, why should they? but there are about a million pensioners above the threshold of pension credit who are really going to struggle to pay their bills this winter, potentially going cold. of course, we have got to protect them. that is what everyone is calling for, let's wrap our arms around those people and resolve this issue, and if they do,

we will give government a big stick because they have looked after people and that is what we want to see. , ., ., ., , see. there will be a vote on this next week- _ see. there will be a vote on this next week. if _ see. there will be a vote on this next week. if there _ see. there will be a vote on this next week. if there are - see. there will be a vote on this next week. if there are no i see. there will be a vote on this i next week. if there are no changes to the government's time between now and then, could you vote for this? i couldn't vote for this but i think what we are saying, this is bigger than a vote, because this is about protecting people's lives, and ultimately, that is our responsibility as mps, to speak truth to power and that is all we are doing, is to say, actually, there are some people in danger here, they are at risk and we need the government to step in, like gordon brown did when he introduced the winter fuel payment. he recognised that old people were frightened to flick the switch to keep themselves warm and said, i'm not having that. a labour government has a moral purpose to protect people and that is why we introduced the winter fuel payment, obviously worth a great value of the energy bill, to take on energy bills going up bill, to take on energy bills going up on the 1st of october by another

10%. being able to put that protection in is a labour action and thatis protection in is a labour action and that is why i am saying to rachel reeves, please take that action to protect the poorest pensioners. yes, greater uptake of pension credit but also those people who will fall into poverty because they are just above the threshold. it is a cliff edge set by previous governments. l the threshold. it is a cliff edge set by previous governments. i hear ou when set by previous governments. i hear you when you _ set by previous governments. i hear you when you say — set by previous governments. i hear you when you say this _ set by previous governments. i hear you when you say this is _ set by previous governments. i hear you when you say this is bigger i set by previous governments. i hear you when you say this is bigger than a vote. you couldn't sleep at night if you voted for this, is the impression i'm getting for you, i've put those words into your mouth but i can feel it in the studio. and yet, i am also going to ask because there will be a three line whip, as nick hasjust explained, there will be a three line whip, as nick has just explained, are you at all mindful of the seven of your colleagues who were suspended, who lost the labour whip after voting against the government on an amendment to scrap the two child benefit? for amendment to scrap the two child benefit? ., ., ., , ., , benefit? for me and many of my colleagues. _ benefit? for me and many of my colleagues, we _ benefit? for me and many of my colleagues, we are _ benefit? for me and many of my colleagues, we are just - benefit? for me and many of my colleagues, we are just so i benefit? for me and many of my - colleagues, we are just so concerned and we will do anything to protect life. on this occasion, what i am

saying to the government is that they have got the weekend to work this through but put in some mitigation to protect the most vulnerable, notjust those on pension credit but those people above the line, to ensure that they can be safe, warm and well this winter. it is imperative that they do that. the economic savings that they will get from making that decision, let alone protect the nhs which is the flagship manager of the labour party, absolutely essential, we know it is under extreme pressure at the moment so we don't need more people in gp surgeries, let alone hospital beds.— people in gp surgeries, let alone hosital beds. ., ~ , ., ., ., hospital beds. thank you for 'oining us. hospital beds. thank you for 'oining rachael— hospital beds. thank you for 'oining us. rachael maskell, * hospital beds. thank you for 'oining us. rachael maskell, labourh hospital beds. thank you forjoining us. rachael maskell, labour mp. i next we are going to talk about what has been going on in gaza. in the last 2a hours also, the labour government has suspended about 30 arms export licences on items that could be sent to israel which they said was a —— they said had a

serious risk of being used in a way that would breach international law in gaza. just before we came on air, i spoke to a palestinian journalist living in gaza, ghada al kord. she told us gaza is completely unsafe. so you have to prepare yourself every day, day by day or hour by hour or minute by minute, what is coming next? we don't know what to do. how to secure our life, how to secure our food, how to secure our work. so it's difficult circumstances that we live in now for one year. and we can say we've been under this situation almost one year. the uk has suspended the export of some military components to israel. and i wanted to ask what your response is to that? well, it's a good sign and a good step from the uk to suspend this export to israel. at least they said it is 30 licences out of 350

licences of armed equipment or licence for armed equipment they are selling to israel. this is a good sign and we hope that other countries can do the same. and even the uk can suspend all their 350 equipments for israel. because this war should be ended as soon as possible. we've lost everything. the gaza strip is not inhabitable now. we are living in this, in gaza strip, and we know that it is not any more a place for living. ann—marie trevelyan, you worked in the government on these export licences. what do you think has changed in terms of the legal advice when lord cameron as foreign secretary asked for it in march earlier this year and now? in fact, it is a rolling _ earlier this year and now? in fact, it is a rolling process. _ earlier this year and now? in fact, it is a rolling process. obviously, | it is a rolling process. obviously, because of the war going on in gaza

and israel, lord cameron was very focused on this, a really important issue, as we always are. but the process, we have one of the most robust export licensing systems in the world in the uk, it is a triumvirate, the ministry of defence, the foreign office and the trade department, who holds the pen on saying yes or no, have two agree on saying yes or no, have two agree on every single licence unless it is, you make helmets, you can sell helmets to these countries and then people can get on. otherwise, quite often, businesses have come back regularly and they are constantly check and recheck, so not only from the technical issue, from the mod perspective, is this a british product that we are ok selling to the country, the foreign office will say, are we ok selling it to every country? i tell you what, not russia or china or whatever it might be. they put limitations on it. and then it is signed off or not. these are incredibly and overseen. the question of... we sell a very small

amount of export licence covered items to israel, as it happens, in terms of the overall export licences the uk has. but of course, monitoring that has been really important and that has continued all the way through because we want to be absolutely certain that we are not allowing this sort of thing. what worries me about david lammy�*s statement yesterday is it feels like, and i completely understand this was a really important issue for the labour party, as felt by many through the course of the election, to demonstrate a less sort of solid israel focus but if the legal advice had said, there is a breach of international law, he should have shut down all the licences. he hasn't done that. that says to me... licences. he hasn't done that. that says to mem— says to me... because it is future lookinu. says to me... because it is future looking- but _ says to me... because it is future looking. but the _ says to me... because it is future looking. but the challenge - says to me... because it is future looking. but the challenge on - looking. but the challenge on international— looking. but the challenge on international law _ looking. but the challenge on international law is _ looking. but the challenge on international law is very - looking. but the challenge on| international law is very broad looking. but the challenge on - international law is very broad and we have never sent...— we have never sent... let's hear what we have never sent. .. let's hear what other— we have never sent... let's hear what other people _ we have never sent... let's hear what other people say, - we have never sent... let's hear what other people say, go, - we have never sent... let's hear what other people say, go, i - we have never sent... let's hear. what other people say, go, i want we have never sent... let's hear- what other people say, go, i want to ask you, borisjohnson asked today,

do keir starmer and david lammy want hamas to win? how do you respond? i think it is an outrage to suggest that what— think it is an outrage to suggest that what has happened is anything to do with — that what has happened is anything to do with an attitude to hamas, we know_ to do with an attitude to hamas, we know that _ to do with an attitude to hamas, we know that hamas is a terrorist, extreme — know that hamas is a terrorist, extreme anti—semitic organisation and there — extreme anti—semitic organisation and there is no way... but can i come _ and there is no way... but can i come back_ and there is no way... but can i come back to you? i agree with most of what _ come back to you? i agree with most of what you _ come back to you? i agree with most of what you had it and then you said that thing _ of what you had it and then you said that thing at the end and i thought, oh, that thing at the end and i thought, oh. i_ that thing at the end and i thought, oh. i wish _ that thing at the end and i thought, oh, i wish you had that thing at the end and i thought, oh, iwish you had not that thing at the end and i thought, oh, i wish you had not said that. this_ oh, i wish you had not said that. this is_ oh, i wish you had not said that. this is a — oh, i wish you had not said that. this is a legal issue, not a political— this is a legal issue, not a political issue. you know as a minister— political issue. you know as a minister and political issue. you know as a ministerand i political issue. you know as a minister and i know political issue. you know as a ministerand i know as political issue. you know as a minister and i know as a political issue. you know as a ministerand i know as a minister, if you _ ministerand i know as a minister, if you get— ministerand i know as a minister, if you get legal advice, that you should — if you get legal advice, that you should not be signing off a particular contract. that is what you do — particular contract. that is what you do. take the politics out of it. margaret — you do. take the politics out of it. margaret thatcher in 1982 stopped all licences for all arms to go to israet— all licences for all arms to go to israel in — all licences for all arms to go to israel in the middle of the war with lebanon. vince cable did a similar thing. _ lebanon. vince cable did a similar thing. he — lebanon. vince cable did a similar thing, he stopped renewing the licences— thing, he stopped renewing the licences in 2012. take the politics out of _ licences in 2012. take the politics out of it — licences in 2012. take the politics out of it if— licences in 2012. take the politics out of it. if you as a minister get legal— out of it. if you as a minister get legal advice, you have to obey it.

you were — legal advice, you have to obey it. you were smiling.— you were smiling. politics is part of this. you were smiling. politics is part of this- we _ you were smiling. politics is part of this. we heard _ you were smiling. politics is part of this. we heard from _ you were smiling. politics is part of this. we heard from the - you were smiling. politics is part l of this. we heard from the person, marc— of this. we heard from the person, marc smith, — of this. we heard from the person, marcsmith. i— of this. we heard from the person, marc smith, i think— of this. we heard from the person, marc smith, i think his _ of this. we heard from the person, marc smith, i think his name - of this. we heard from the person, marc smith, i think his name was, | marc smith, i think his name was, who quit the — marc smith, i think his name was, who quit the foreign office, - marc smith, i think his name was, who quit the foreign office, who l who quit the foreign office, who was an who quit the foreign office, who was arr expert _ who quit the foreign office, who was arr expert on — who quit the foreign office, who was an expert on arms— who quit the foreign office, who was an expert on arms sales, _ who quit the foreign office, who was an expert on arms sales, saying - who quit the foreign office, who was an expert on arms sales, saying that| an expert on arms sales, saying that he has _ an expert on arms sales, saying that he has been saying _ an expert on arms sales, saying that he has been saying to the _ he has been saying to the new government— he has been saying to the new government that actually, - he has been saying to the new- government that actually, the arms sales. there — government that actually, the arms sales, there is a _ government that actually, the arms sales, there is a real problem - sales, there is a real problem in terms _ sales, there is a real problem in terms of international— sales, there is a real problem in terms of international law, and i terms of international law, and you have just 30 — terms of international law, and you have just 30 licences suspended i have just 30 licences suspended felt like a sort _ have just 30 licences suspended felt like a sort of small— have just 30 licences suspended felt like a sort of small gesture or- like a sort of small gesture or something i_ like a sort of small gesture or something. i agree, - like a sort of small gesture or something. iagree, if- like a sort of small gesture or something. i agree, if it - like a sort of small gesture or something. i agree, if it is... | like a sort of small gesture or. something. i agree, if it is... it is something. i agree, if it is... is proportionate. something. iagree, if it is... it is proportionate. what - something. iagree, if it is... it is proportionate. what is - is proportionate. what is proportionate _ is proportionate. what is proportionate about - is proportionate. what is i proportionate about selling is proportionate. what is - proportionate about selling arms is proportionate. what is _ proportionate about selling arms to a country— proportionate about selling arms to a country that— proportionate about selling arms to a country that is...? _ proportionate about selling arms to a country that is...? baggaley- proportionate about selling arms to a country that is...? baggaley we . a country that is...? baggaley we sell arms— a country that is...? baggaley we sell arms to — a country that is...? baggaley we sell arms to all— a country that is...? baggaley we sell arms to all sorts _ a country that is...? baggaley we sell arms to all sorts of— a country that is...? baggaley we| sell arms to all sorts of countries. and we _ sell arms to all sorts of countries. and we shouldn't, _ sell arms to all sorts of countries. and we shouldn't, should - sell arms to all sorts of countries. and we shouldn't, should we? - sell arms to all sorts of countries. and we shouldn't, should we? that sell arms to all sorts of countries. - and we shouldn't, should we? that is the point _ and we shouldn't, should we? that is the oint. ., ., ., �* ., ,, .,~ the point. hang on, don't all speak at once. i think— the point. hang on, don't all speak at once. i think the _ the point. hang on, don't all speak at once. i think the way _ the point. hang on, don't all speak at once. i think the way this - the point. hang on, don't all speak at once. i think the way this is - at once. i think the way this is exnlained _ at once. i think the way this is explained here _ at once. i think the way this is explained here is _ at once. i think the way this is explained here is as _ at once. i think the way this is explained here is as a - at once. i think the way this is l explained here is as a technical process — explained here is as a technical process it— explained here is as a technical rocess. , ., explained here is as a technical rocess. , . ., , ,, explained here is as a technical i process-_ but process. it is a legal process. but we know that _ process. it is a legal process. but we know that we _ process. it is a legal process. but we know that we have _ process. it is a legal process. but we know that we have made - process. it is a legal process. but - we know that we have made mistakes on this— we know that we have made mistakes on this in— we know that we have made mistakes on this in the — we know that we have made mistakes on this in the past, _ we know that we have made mistakes on this in the past, selling _ we know that we have made mistakes on this in the past, selling arms- we know that we have made mistakes on this in the past, selling arms to i on this in the past, selling arms to saudi _ on this in the past, selling arms to saudi arabia — on this in the past, selling arms to saudi arabia and _ on this in the past, selling arms to saudi arabia and bombing - on this in the past, selling arms to saudi arabia and bombing yet- on this in the past, selling arms to. saudi arabia and bombing yet been, we know— saudi arabia and bombing yet been, we know these — saudi arabia and bombing yet been, we know these things _ saudi arabia and bombing yet been, we know these things are _ saudi arabia and bombing yet been, we know these things are often - we know these things are often potiticak —

we know these things are often politicak and _ we know these things are often political. and 30 _ we know these things are often political. and 30 export - we know these things are oftenl political. and 30 export licences amongst — political. and 30 export licences amongst 350 _ political. and 30 export licences amongst 350 in— political. and 30 export licences amongst 350 in total. _ political. and 30 export licences amongst 350 in total. it- political. and 30 export licences amongst 350 in total. [it is - political. and 30 export licences amongst 350 in total.— amongst 350 in total. it is 1350, actuall , amongst 350 in total. it is 1350, actually. the — amongst 350 in total. it is 1350, actually, the number _ amongst 350 in total. it is 1350, actually, the number was - amongst 350 in total. it is 1350, | actually, the number was wrong. amongst 350 in total. it is 1350, - actually, the number was wrong. and what does that say? it _ actually, the number was wrong. and what does that say? it is _ actually, the number was wrong. and what does that say? it is important i what does that say? it is important to say there _ what does that say? it is important to say there is _ what does that say? it is important to say there is flexibly _ what does that say? it is important to say there is flexibly teen - what does that say? it is important to say there is flexibly teen the - to say there is flexibly teen the law, it says you should suspend the license if there is a clear risk that international humanitarian law could be broken, not that it has been broken, not that it will be broken, a clear risk. new government, new attorney general. and that is a political choice, absolutely, the new attorney general, _ absolutely, the new attorney general, the previous attorney generat— general, the previous attorney general spent a lot of time as i think— general spent a lot of time as i think the — general spent a lot of time as i think the new labour attorney generat— think the new labour attorney general has been to israel, talked to their— general has been to israel, talked to their legal advisers. the israel defense — to their legal advisers. the israel defense force is one of the most sophisticated military in the world and they, — sophisticated military in the world and they, like us and the us have legal— and they, like us and the us have legal advisers alongside their commanders when they are doing any operations _ commanders when they are doing any operations. the legal advisers are there _ operations. the legal advisers are there to _ operations. the legal advisers are there to keep them right, if you like. _ there to keep them right, if you like. to— there to keep them right, if you like, to consider targets and make sure they— like, to consider targets and make sure they are doing all the right things. — sure they are doing all the right

things. so— sure they are doing all the right things, so all of that information is there — things, so all of that information is there an — things, so all of that information is there an hour attorney generals, previous— is there an hour attorney generals, previous and present, are very much in the _ previous and present, are very much in the throes — previous and present, are very much in the throes of that.— in the throes of that. thank you, go ahead. ithink— in the throes of that. thank you, go ahead. i think there _ in the throes of that. thank you, go ahead. i think there is _ in the throes of that. thank you, go ahead. i think there is a _ in the throes of that. thank you, go ahead. i think there is a broader - ahead. i think there is a broader oint ahead. i think there is a broader point about _ ahead. i think there is a broader point about seeing _ ahead. i think there is a broader point about seeing how - ahead. i think there is a broader point about seeing how this - ahead. i think there is a broader point about seeing how this has| point about seeing how this has played — point about seeing how this has played out _ point about seeing how this has played out over— point about seeing how this has played out over the _ point about seeing how this has played out over the last - point about seeing how this has played out over the last days i point about seeing how this has . played out over the last days which actually, _ played out over the last days which actually, this— played out over the last days which actually, this has— played out over the last days which actually, this has not— played out over the last days which actually, this has not been- played out over the last days which actually, this has not been smart l actually, this has not been smart politics— actually, this has not been smart politics from _ actually, this has not been smart politics from david _ actually, this has not been smart politics from david lammy. - actually, this has not been smart politics from david lammy. on . actually, this has not been smart i politics from david lammy. on the one hand. — politics from david lammy. on the one hand. people _ politics from david lammy. on the one hand, people like _ politics from david lammy. on the one hand, people like me - politics from david lammy. on the one hand, people like me that- politics from david lammy. on the | one hand, people like me that want to see _ one hand, people like me that want to see the _ one hand, people like me that want to see the end _ one hand, people like me that want to see the end of— one hand, people like me that want to see the end of this _ one hand, people like me that want to see the end of this war, - one hand, people like me that want to see the end of this war, this - to see the end of this war, this ethnic— to see the end of this war, this ethnic cleansing _ to see the end of this war, this ethnic cleansing in _ to see the end of this war, this ethnic cleansing in gaza, - to see the end of this war, this ethnic cleansing in gaza, and l to see the end of this war, thisi ethnic cleansing in gaza, and to to see the end of this war, this - ethnic cleansing in gaza, and to see these _ ethnic cleansing in gaza, and to see these bombs, — ethnic cleansing in gaza, and to see these bombs, you _ ethnic cleansing in gaza, and to see these bombs, you know, _ ethnic cleansing in gaza, and to see these bombs, you know, 70,000 i ethnic cleansing in gaza, and to see - these bombs, you know, 70,000 tonnes of bombs _ these bombs, you know, 70,000 tonnes of bombs on _ these bombs, you know, 70,000 tonnes of bombs on a _ these bombs, you know, 70,000 tonnes of bombs on a small— these bombs, you know, 70,000 tonnes of bombs on a small strip, _ these bombs, you know, 70,000 tonnes of bombs on a small strip, we _ these bombs, you know, 70,000 tonnes of bombs on a small strip, we want - of bombs on a small strip, we want to see _ of bombs on a small strip, we want to see that— of bombs on a small strip, we want to see that end. _ of bombs on a small strip, we want to see that end, 30 _ of bombs on a small strip, we want to see that end, 30 licences- of bombs on a small strip, we want to see that end, 30 licences meanl to see that end, 30 licences mean nothing _ to see that end, 30 licences mean nothing but — to see that end, 30 licences mean nothing but on _ to see that end, 30 licences mean nothing but on the _ to see that end, 30 licences mean nothing but on the other- to see that end, 30 licences mean nothing but on the other hand, . to see that end, 30 licences meanl nothing but on the other hand, you are seeing — nothing but on the other hand, you are seeing people _ nothing but on the other hand, you are seeing people that— nothing but on the other hand, you are seeing people that support - nothing but on the other hand, youl are seeing people that support what is happening — are seeing people that support what is happening there, _ are seeing people that support what is happening there, also— are seeing people that support what is happening there, also pushing - is happening there, also pushing back, _ is happening there, also pushing back, so— is happening there, also pushing back, so nobody is— is happening there, also pushing back, so nobody is happy, so- back, so nobody is happy, so politicallyw _ back, so nobody is happy, so politically---_ back, so nobody is happy, so oliticall ., ., ., ., , politically... you are not the only one who wants _ politically... you are not the only one who wants to _ politically... you are not the only one who wants to see _ politically... you are not the only one who wants to see the - politically... you are not the only one who wants to see the end . politically... you are not the only one who wants to see the end of| politically... you are not the only i one who wants to see the end of the war. i one who wants to see the end of the war. ., �* ~ ., one who wants to see the end of the war. ., �* ~ . all one who wants to see the end of the war-_ all of - one who wants to see the end of the war-_ all of us. i war. i don't think i am. all of us, wherever — war. i don't think i am. all of us, wherever you _ war. i don't think i am. all of us, wherever you stand on _ war. i don't think i am. all of us, wherever you stand on the - war. i don't think i am. all of us, - wherever you stand on the spectrum, on the political spectrum here in the uk, we all want to see a ceasefire, we all want to see the hostages brought home, we all want to see a marshall plan for gaza, we all want to see a peace process.

will that help that? something that will hel us will that help that? something that will help us towards _ will that help that? something that will help us towards a _ will that help that? something that will help us towards a two - will that help that? something that will help us towards a two state - will help us towards a two state solution, we all want to see that but in this particular thing, it is not a political decision and i accept there is a judgment but if you as a minister get advice from your officials, saying that there is a risk in this, you have to have regard to it. i have been in that position and so have you. can regard to it. i have been in that position and so have you.- regard to it. i have been in that position and so have you. can i ask as a labour— position and so have you. can i ask as a labour politician, _ position and so have you. can i ask as a labour politician, if— position and so have you. can i ask as a labour politician, if i - position and so have you. can i ask as a labour politician, ifi may, - as a labour politician, if i may, why did david lammy announce it yesterday, as those six hostages were being released?— yesterday, as those six hostages were being released? everything is terrible about _ were being released? everything is terrible about this _ were being released? everything is terrible about this war _ were being released? everything is terrible about this war and - were being released? everything is terrible about this war and doing i were being released? everything is terrible about this war and doing it| terrible about this war and doing it yesterday, when we saw those photographs of those really young people who had been viciously, you know, fired at, it was absolutely terrible, is there ever going to be a write today? what he had to do, and i think probably he wanted to announce it to parliament and they probably got the advice over the summer, this was the first day of the return of parliament and he felt

he had to be accountable to parliament, i think