voice-over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. vladimir putin talks of restoring greatness to what he calls the russian world — an expansive territory which, as ukrainians know to their cost, stretches far beyond russia's current borders. putin's expansionist nationalism requires military power, but it's harnessed the cultural spiritual authority of the russian orthodox church, too. my guest, andrey kordochkin, was a russian orthodox priest who spoke out against the ukraine war and the "putinisation" of his church.

but is he swimming against an unstoppable tide? andrey kordochkin, andrey kordochkin, welcome to hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. thank you. thank you. it's a great honour it's a great honour and privilege to be here. and privilege to be here. well, it's great to have you well, it's great to have you in the studio. in the studio. let me take you back let me take you back to february 2022. to february 2022. putin orders putin orders an all—out invasion of ukraine. that this would be the end an all—out invasion of ukraine. within days, you, a priest within days, you, a priest in the russian orthodox church, in the russian orthodox church, choose to speak out choose to speak out against the invasion. against the invasion. when you did that, did you feel when you did that, did you feel

that this would be the end of your career in the russian orthodox church? i think that when the war has begun, very few of us could actually give a prediction of what is going to come through. so i think that many people would suggest that the war would be over in a very short period of time. so i don't think that any of us was acting out of any kind of prediction. and i think when i spoke out against the war, i don't think that i really felt any choice. i thought that it was a moral imperative on behalf of any christian or any sensible and reasonable person, to try to stop it, or at least not to be a part of what one may call a moraljustification of evil. but you didn't actually just speak out yourself. within days, you were a co—signatory to a declaration that, i think, involved almost 300 russian orthodox priests, who were opposed to this invasion. so, it wasn't just yourself.

you were at the beginnings of creating a movement. well, we tried to show that the church is not really a communist party, when on the one side you have someone who speaks on behalf of everyone, and on the other side, you have the silence of the lambs. so, of course, i think many people were very much disappointed with the rhetoric that was taken officially by the moscow patriarchate. but we wanted to show that it is not the, um, entire russian orthodox community, laypeople and priests, who do support it. we thought that if the people are expecting to hear some christian evaluation of what is happening, if it doesn't come from above, it has to come from below. if you had such moral qualms, which you felt you had to express in the wake of february 2022, why hadn't you expressed them very much earlier? afterall, russia's military operations in ukraine began in 2014. the annexation of crimea

took place in 2014. i don't see you speaking out against that. well, this was not the first time that we spoke out against a line that was taken by the government. for example, a few years before this open letter appeared, there was another open letter signed by the priest on the so—called moscow case. and i have published some articles, for example, where i questioned why, for example, ivan ilyin, who is essentially a fascist thinker, why he became the main, uh, the most central philosophicalfigure for the russian authorities. or, for example, i participated in the discussion of blessing of the weapons, and i was actually warning that in this discourse it may happen that a war will be launched

and we'll talk some more about him, i'm sure, in the course of this interview, describing putin's leadership "as a miracle of god." we had catherine belton, an author whose book, putin's people, is regarded as a definitive book on putin's power in russia, talking about the way the russian orthodox church was promoted in eastern ukraine before and after 2014. you, as a priest in that church, serving in madrid, saw and heard all of these things. i just wonder why it took the invasion of 2022 to become a tipping point for you? well, i think everyone has his own tipping point, and this was really the point of division, which required a choice on behalf of everyone, including the laity and the priests. but, you know, before that, before the full invasion of russia into ukraine has begun, all the russian church was really praying for peace and reconciliation in the east of ukraine.

was it, really? was the patriarch kirill praying for peace? well, these were the prayers that were in use, at least liturgically. and something has changed in a very radical way when the war has begun. and from the language of reconciliation, the official language has become that of victory. so, for example, most of the priests who are being repressed now in the russian church for not supporting the official line, they are being repressed because they refuse to read the so—called prayer for the holy rus. and one of the most famous cases is when a priest changed only one word in the prayer. the word "victory" he changed for the word "peace." and so he was then defrocked. that's extraordinary. so by refusing to use the word victory and replacing it with the word peace, if you are a russian orthodox cleric inside russia, you will be punished and probably removed, will you?

indeed. and, at present, i do not know any clergyman in the russian orthodox church, who would openly oppose the war and the pro—war rhetoric, and would still remain at service. so, how many... the repressions are numerous. ..of the almost 300 priests who signed that that declaration in the early days after the february 2022 invasion, how many of them were, like yourself, expatriate priests working in foreign churches within the russian orthodox church? and how many were actual priests serving inside russia itself? well, i would say — i don't remember the numbers exactly, but i would suggest that probably about 200 were in russia itself, and maybe about 100 would be outside of the country. but at least now... and what's happened to those 200 or so? how many of them do you think are still in the church? well, most of them, i think,

would still be in the church, but those who kept themselves public in their anti—war discourse were either suspended as priests or they were defrocked. so, for example, a friend of mine, a priest in dusseldorf in germany, and myself, we organised a foundation, which is called "mir vsem — peace be unto all," in which we try to help the priests who are being repressed, who don't have any means to sustain their families. some of them are in russia, so not all their names are in public, because they do not want to be public and attract attention of the ecclesiastical and of governmental bodies, but some of them had to emigrate. but, besides helping these people, we wanted to give them a voice, and we wanted to show, and we still want to show that the russian orthodox church is very far from supporting putin's rhetoric in its fullness. just to be clear about your own situation, you are no longer inside the russian orthodox church. technically, i think,

you resigned, but was it a genuine resignation, or were you pushed? well, i was pushed because in the beginning of the year 2023, i was suspended as a priest by a secret resolution of the patriarch of moscow. so this came from kirill? this came from kirill directly. how do you know? well, i know because i was then a diocesan secretary, so i know things. but, for me, it was a clear move that if this was a temporary suspension, then the indefinite one will come sooner or later. so then i realised that i have to go. do you feel entirely safe now? i know you've moved from madrid, where you were running the russian orthodox cathedral in madrid. you now live in germany. we know that the russian government doesn't like dissidents, opponents, to be vocal, to be active,

whether they are operating inside russia or very farfrom russia. do you feel threatened in any way? well, i wouldn't want to compare my own risks with the risk of the people who are physically in russia, and with the bravery of those people who are in russia. for example, with the people that i have met personally, the russian political prisoners who have been exchanged, on the one hand, and on the other hand, with the real risks of those people who remain in ukraine and defend their country. i just don't see myself in the same situation. what do you think the russian orthodox church makes of the fact that you're still preaching, albeit not in their church, but you are still an active orthodox priest, no longer tied to moscow? i didn't ask them. do you use your pulpit to send a very clear message of opposition? well, i don't think that the pulpit is meant for opposition. i think that the pulpit is meant to proclaim the gospel and to proclaim the christian vision.

but if what you preach contradicts the official narrative, then you are being accused of participation in the opposition. but, of course, i still keep in touch with the russian media, both in the country and abroad. some people still carry on working in russia and they are the real heroes. like, for example, dmitry muratov, who is the nobel prize winner and the editor—in—chief in the past of novaya gazeta. so, these people are the real heroes. and, of course, i try to support people and address people using the possibilities that i have, both the russian journalists who are in russia and abroad. at the beginning of this programme, i talked about the way in which putin's vision for a russian world, a greater russia, of course, is premised upon military

power, but it also has a very strong cultural, spiritual element. the association between putin and the leadership of the russian orthodox church could not be stronger. explain to me how this relationship actually works between church and state. well, some of the experts, like, for example, father cyril hovorun, they would say that the war consists of two elements — the weapons and the ideas, because the weapons do not shoot without the ideas and the ideology. so he would say that while the weapons are provided by the state, the ideology is provided by the church. this is true, but only in part. so, for example, if you look at the doctrine of the russian world, which you have mentioned, it was constructed artificially in the 19905 as an alternative to the post—soviet identity, basically of shame, after the collapse of the soviet union. but then it was taken up by kremlin and, for example, vladislav surkov,

who was one of the politicians directly responsible for the policy of russia in eastern ukraine. he said that, for us, this concept was interesting because it corresponded to our desire to expand. and, in another interview, he said that for russia to be within its limits is boring and uncomfortable. the paper of the moscow patriarchate in this sense is that the doctrine is being sacralized. so it is the russian world, not simply as an ethnic or a national community, but as a community which is morally superior to the world because it lives according to the so—called traditional values, which have the divine origin. it's a supernatural community, which was born at the baptism of russia, etc. i guess what i'm really getting to is the degree to which vladimir putin dictates to the russian orthodox church and uses it as a tool. is that the way you see it, or is it more complex than that? i think it's way more complex than that. and i think that it's

also quite different from the situation in which the church found itself in the soviet union. so, for example, i remember a story which was told to me by metropolitan anthony bloom, who lived in london, who represented the russian church here for decades. and he said that once, it must have been the 19705, to london came metropolitan nikodim, who was a teacher of the patriarch, and he gave a press conference, probably here in the bbc. the journalists were asking him, you know, "how is the church in russia? "are there any persecutions? "is there any pressure?" he said, "everything is fine, everything is brilliant." and after that he approached metropolitan anthony and asked, "how did i sound? how was it?" he said, "it was terrible and everyone was laughing "at you and no—one believed you." he said, "brilliant, "because this is the way i meant it to be." now, the difference now, is that the people who preach what we call "z theology," i think they believe what they preach. i don't think that it's possible to persuade the patriarch to say something that he does not believe. so, i would not think... hang on, this is important.

i mean, the patriarch has basically, to paraphrase him somewhat, has basically described the war in ukraine as a holy war. he suggested that those who die fighting for russia in this war will be absolved of their sins. this makes it sound like some sort of holy crusade. well, i mean, on the one hand, i think that what is i think that what is really important here really important here is that the relationship is that the relationship between the church between the church and the state is not simply and the state is not simply objects and subjects. objects and subjects. i think that when you listen i think that when you listen to these people, to these people, you have to understand you have to understand that it is something that it is something very similar to very similar to an apocalyptic sect, an apocalyptic sect, which is absolutely assured which is absolutely assured in its own superiority, in its own superiority, and it is sure that the world and it is sure that the world does not have any meaning. relationship with the church, does not have any meaning. the existence of the world the existence of the world has no meaning has no meaning without the existence without the existence of this community. of this community. so i think that so i think that we're speaking about something we're speaking about something that these people that these people actually share, actually share, rather than they impose rather than they impose one on the other. one on the other. it's a shared vision. it's a shared vision. so let's talk so let's talk about putin himself. about putin himself. do you believe that do you believe that

vladimir putin is being cynical vladimir putin is being cynical and opportunist in his and opportunist in his relationship with the church, or is he actually a religious man? well, i think that in a way he is religious, but it is a kind of religion which has nothing to do with christianity. i have tried to analyse some of the things that he's said

which would really, if a man asks another, "are you muzhik or not?" it's really the capacity to resolve any conflict by violence and by aggression. so, for example, you may want to refer to a book written by hector garcia, which is called the alpha god, where he shows how sometimes in the evolution of humanity, the alpha males were inventing alpha gods to make them look like themselves. so i think that we are speaking about some kind of religion, but it's going to be a very, very basic one. let's talk about another russian, who was very public in his religiosity, and that's alexei navalny. you agreed to officiate in a commemorative service just a few months ago after navalny�*s death in prison, which involved his wife. and she thanked you for your involvement and you've spoken about your admiration for navalny�*s courage. in a way, how can the same russian orthodox religion

have fuelled the behaviours, the belief system of putin and of alexei navalny? well, i mean, if you look at the history of christianity, you can say that christianity has been fuelling all kinds of things — none of which are going to improve. but i think that regarding navalny himself, i never knew him personally, but i think that we owe him a few things. one is that he, um, contributed to destroy a myth, which is one of the central ones in the russian propaganda that if someone thinks and acts not in accordance with the official line, it means that he is paid from abroad and he is directed from abroad. now, obviously, there is no authority, and there is no money that can send someone to a place like kharp and to accept terrible death in that prison. the second thing is something that i spoke about at this memorial service

is that, you know, being a christian is notjust about, um, quoting the bible, but it's about following christ in a very literal manner. so the image that i had in front of my eyes when he was boarding a plane from berlin to moscow is that of descent into hell. so one of the things that i said at the ceremony is that navalny taught us that you can be in hell and not be a part of it. you took navalny�*s fight against putin as an example that others could follow. we've discussed in this interview how difficult it is to be a dissident priest in russia today. but you've said that, actually, there is scope for peaceful resistance in russia that can make a meaningful difference to russia's future. in fact, not so long ago, you said that, "we russians can learn from martin luther king." "i think that in russia, "we have not yet exhausted the potential "for nonviolent resistance. " surely, given what happened to navalny, given the enormity

of putin's repressive machinery inside the state, that's just wishful thinking. i don't think it is. because if you think how to stop a tank or an aeroplane, maybe the obvious question would be that, you know, it has to be stopped only by weapons. but in order for it to advance, you have people inside who are motivated to do it, and there are people who construct it. so, for example, i saw someone with an academic background. itry... what i have tried to do in the last months and a few years is to try to see this religious, pseudo religious, doctrine and to try to deconstruct it. and this would be a way to simply to show people how they are being manipulated. you think russians are listening to you? some of them are. i wouldn't say that there... we can't say there are many or not. but, uh, for example,

when we made an interview with katerina gordeeva, there were some 2 million viewers. so i think that for people, it is because people are so disillusioned with the church, with the institutional church, because people feel that using the image of the gospel, they are receiving the stone instead of the bread, and instead of the christian message, they receive a mix of conspiracy, militarism and nationalism. it's very important for them to hear some voices, which, in the middle of this gaslight, if i may use this word, help them to survive. just a final thought. volodymyr zelensky and the ukrainian parliament have just essentially banned the orthodox church on ukraine's soil. they're closing down those churches. they've accused some clerics involved with the church of acting as agents of russia. some have been accused of treason. do you, as a former priest in the russian orthodox church, agree with ukraine

that the church has been used as an agent, in effect, in places like ukraine? well, first of all, there is no russian orthodox church in ukraine now. so what is the ukrainian orthodox church has... which is the moscow affiliated... ? well, it is... the question is precisely whether it is affiliated because it is not affiliated any longer now for a few years, and there is no reason why it should be victimised. but i think that in a sense, what is happening in ukraine because... well, how should i explain it? i think that what happens in a war, especially if the victory does not seem to be very near, is that the massive aggression is being canalised from the external enemy to the internal one. so in this sense, i would say that ukraine is really repeating the... well, i wouldn't want to use a mistake, it has to be some...stronger word. but what is being done in russia. so, obviously, the state in ukraine

is farfrom being neutral. and of course, as a christian, as a priest, i cannot approve of cases when the churches are taken over by violence and by force, and the authorities turn their blind eye. i'm not necessarily saying the government as such, but the local governments. and i don't think that these questions can be decided by... ..decided by violence and by force. i would never approve it. but you feared what the ukrainians have done to this, as you say, this orthodox church, which is ukrainian, but in the past has historically been tied to the russian orthodox church, you believe that the measures taken could represent a form of religious repression or not? well, it is definitely a form of repression. but i don't think that anyone should be, in this sense, judged by their past. i think that you have to consider the reality, which is there today, and the reality today is that the people who belong to this church, they are... ..supporting their country

in their war of freedom, independence, and i don't see a reason why they should be victimised. and, on the whole, you know, when every state functionary sees himself as a kind of emperor constantine and thinks that he has the authority to rule and to govern what we may want to call religious life. you know, i'm not quite happy about that. andrey kordochkin, we have to end there. i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you. thank you so much. thank you very much indeed. hello. we saw a lot more sunshine around across england

and wales on tuesday. it was less gloomy and humid as well, but a cooler, fresher feel to things for the middle parts of the week for pretty much all areas, and we'll see a mixture of sunshine and showers. now, this area of high pressure has been trying to push in from the west to settle things down. we've got a number of weak weather fronts across the uk, giving areas of cloud and some patchy areas of rain and showers. but what you will notice is the cooler and fresher air mass, which is across the country to begin wednesday. and, again, it's going to be quite chilly to start the day across parts of scotland and northern ireland, certainly out in the countryside. low single digits for england and wales, also a little bit fresher, 10—14 degrees. but we'll have those weather fronts bringing patches of rain and some showers around, some sunshine in between, and as we go into the afternoon, it will be one of sunshine and showers, the odd heavier one here and there. and temperature—wise, you will notice that 15—20 degrees from north to south, so that will feel a lot fresher than of late —

we'll have lost the humidity as well. now, as we head into wednesday night, we start to see the showers merging together to produce longer spells of rain across the midlands, southern and eastern england. this area of rain will turn heavy as it pushes in towards wales and the southwest. further north, it's a drier picture, clear skies again across western scotland, so cooler here, but further south and east starts to pick up more cloud and humidity from the near continent. now, thursday looks particularly wet across southern britain. this area of low pressure over the near continent is going to spin up some pretty heavy rainfall and also stronger easterly winds with higher humidity, so very wet indeed across parts of mid — south wales, the midlands southwards. further north, it's quieter into an area of high pressure. we've got sunshine for scotland, northern ireland, but fairly grey conditions for eastern scotland and eastern england, with a strong easterly wind developing here. so a warm day to come in the north, with a sunshine, even the high teens, low 20s in the south, but it will feel more humid. friday, another weather front brings heavy rain again across southern areas, and into the weekend, we hold on to this

area of low pressure, which will affect more southern parts of the country, whereas further north, you'll be into an area of high pressure, so it should tend to stay drier throughout. friday could see that heavy rainfall across parts of wales and southern england, and we'll see further showers into the weekend for england and wales — drier and sunnier further north.

live from london. this is bbc news. six children and a pregnant woman were among 12 people who drowned when a boat carrying dozens of migrants sank off the french coast in the english channel. the final report into one of britain's worst—ever residential fires will be published later, six years after a public inquiry into the grenfell tower disaster. linda sun, a former aide to the new york governor, has been charged with secretly acting as an agent of the chinese government. pope francis has arrived at the presidential palace in the indonesian capital jakarta, kicking off the longest and farthest trip of his tenure to the asia pacific region. hello, i'm sally bundock.