this programme continues on bbc 1.

no one should have died in the grenfell tower fire. they did, according to the final inquiry report out today, because of failings, incompetence, dishonesty and greed at almost every level — governments, construction contractors, cladding and insulation firms, the local council, the tenant management organisation, the architect and the london fire brigade. tonight we'll talk to survivors and to those who lost loved ones and ask — what happens next?

welcome to newsnight. tonight's programme is about the absolutely scathing conclusions of the final inquiry report published today into the grenfell tower fire. with us this evening natasha elcock, chair of grenfell united, which represents some of the families of victims and survivors. natasha lived in the tower on the 11th floor and lost her uncle, steven power. karim mussilhy is here. he's the vice chair of grenfell united — his uncle hesham rahman died that night. tiago alves grew up in the tower — he escaped from the 13th floor with his mum, dad and sister.

welcome, all of you. thank you very much for being here. i know you have had a very, very intense 2a hours. we are gratefulfor your had a very, very intense 2a hours. we are grateful for your time. seven years on you have officially been told it should never have happened, the death of 72 people was avoidable. how do you reflect on that? i avoidable. how do you reflect on that? 4' avoidable. how do you reflect on that? ~ ., , , ., y avoidable. how do you reflect on that? ~ .,, _, , that? i think as you rightly pointed out it has been _ that? i think as you rightly pointed out it has been a _ that? i think as you rightly pointed out it has been a long _ that? i think as you rightly pointed out it has been a long 36 - that? i think as you rightly pointed out it has been a long 36 hours - out it has been a long 36 hours since we received the report, because we were fortunate enough to receive it before the public did yesterday. i think the report is extensive and batch comprehensive that obviously we have not had an opportunity to even touch the surface —— and that comprehensive. as you pointed out, for me, the most important thing i have taken away this far until we get into the detail is highlighting the fact that every single one of the lives lost was avoidable. it is something we have always known, it does not come

as a surprise that we knew... when you hear someone like sir martin moore—bick deliver that it is powerful and itjust moore—bick deliver that it is powerful and it just affirms moore—bick deliver that it is powerful and itjust affirms what moore—bick deliver that it is powerful and it just affirms what we have known all along. h0??? powerful and it just affirms what we have known all along.— have known all along. how do you reflect on hearing _ have known all along. how do you reflect on hearing this _ have known all along. how do you reflect on hearing this officially, i reflect on hearing this officially, tiago? i reflect on hearing this officially, tia . 0? ~ , reflect on hearing this officially, tia i 0? ~ , ., ., reflect on hearing this officially, tiauo? ~ , ., ., tiago? i think it is good to have it rinted tiago? i think it is good to have it printed on — tiago? i think it is good to have it printed on paper. _ tiago? i think it is good to have it printed on paper, it _ tiago? i think it is good to have it printed on paper, it is _ tiago? i think it is good to have it printed on paper, it is something | tiago? i think it is good to have it i printed on paper, it is something we can refer_ printed on paper, it is something we can refer t0~ — printed on paper, it is something we can refert0~ i— printed on paper, it is something we can refer to. i believe the report follows— can refer to. i believe the report follows the evidence quite well, we heard _ follows the evidence quite well, we heard the _ follows the evidence quite well, we heard the evidence throughout phase one and _ heard the evidence throughout phase one and two but this was purely about— one and two but this was purely about phase two. i think it follows it really— about phase two. i think it follows it really well and is able to put on paper— it really well and is able to put on paper exactly why it happened basically highlight all the failures from corporate, government, local authority — from corporate, government, local authority it — from corporate, government, local authority. it is good because we can point _ authority. it is good because we can point to— authority. it is good because we can point to edge, an official government document, something we can say— government document, something we can say somebody completely independent from all of this has basically— independent from all of this has basically found there was greed, corruption — basically found there was greed, corruption throughout the whole of the time _

corruption throughout the whole of the time before the fire.— corruption throughout the whole of the time before the fire.- a| the time before the fire. karim? a little bit of — the time before the fire. karim? a little bit of both. _ the time before the fire. karim? a little bit of both. |_ the time before the fire. karim? a little bit of both. i think— the time before the fire. karim? a little bit of both. i think it - the time before the fire. karim? a little bit of both. i think it is - little bit of both. i think it is important — little bit of both. i think it is important we _ little bit of both. i think it is important we have - little bit of both. i think it is important we have it - little bit of both. i think it is important we have it on - little bit of both. i think it is i important we have it on paper. little bit of both. i think it is - important we have it on paper. these are things _ important we have it on paper. these are things we — important we have it on paper. these are things we have _ important we have it on paper. these are things we have been— important we have it on paper. these are things we have been saying - important we have it on paper. these are things we have been saying for. important we have it on paper. these are things we have been saying for a i are things we have been saying for a few years. _ are things we have been saying for a few years. we — are things we have been saying for a few years, we have _ are things we have been saying for a few years, we have been— are things we have been saying for a few years, we have been calling - are things we have been saying for a few years, we have been calling out| few years, we have been calling out these _ few years, we have been calling out these companies, _ few years, we have been calling out these companies, we _ few years, we have been calling out these companies, we knew- few years, we have been calling out these companies, we knew what- few years, we have been calling out i these companies, we knew what they were _ these companies, we knew what they were the _ these companies, we knew what they were the inquiry— these companies, we knew what they were. the inquiry has _ these companies, we knew what they were. the inquiry has done _ these companies, we knew what they were. the inquiry has done a - were. the inquiry has done a thorough _ were. the inquiry has done a thoroughioh_ were. the inquiry has done a thoroughjob in— were. the inquiry has done a thorough job in following - were. the inquiry has done a thorough job in following the evidence _ thorough job in following the evidence and _ thorough job in following the evidence and giving - thorough job in following the evidence and giving us more| thorough job in following the . evidence and giving us more of thorough job in following the - evidence and giving us more of a clear— evidence and giving us more of a clear understanding _ evidence and giving us more of a clear understanding on— evidence and giving us more of a clear understanding on the - evidence and giving us more of a clear understanding on the how, | evidence and giving us more of a - clear understanding on the how, why and who— clear understanding on the how, why and who will, — clear understanding on the how, why and who will, but _ clear understanding on the how, why and who will, but today _ clear understanding on the how, why and who will, but today and - clear understanding on the how, why and who will, but today and always l and who will, but today and always will he _ and who will, but today and always will be about — and who will, but today and always will be about the _ and who will, but today and always will be about the 18 _ and who will, but today and always will be about the 18 children - and who will, but today and always will be about the 18 children and i and who will, but today and alwaysl will be about the 18 children and 50 for adutts— will be about the 18 children and 50 for adults that _ will be about the 18 children and 50 for adults that were _ will be about the 18 children and 50 for adults that were lost, _ will be about the 18 children and 50 for adults that were lost, like - for adults that were lost, like natasha _ for adults that were lost, like natasha said. _ for adults that were lost, like natasha said. that _ for adults that were lost, like natasha said. that is - for adults that were lost, like natasha said. that is at i for adults that were lost, like natasha said. that is at the l natasha said. that is at the forefront _ natasha said. that is at the forefront of _ natasha said. that is at the forefront of everything i natasha said. that is at the forefront of everything we i natasha said. that is at the i forefront of everything we do natasha said. that is at the - forefront of everything we do every single _ forefront of everything we do every single day, — forefront of everything we do every single day, and _ forefront of everything we do every single day, and like _ forefront of everything we do every single day, and like you _ forefront of everything we do every single day, and like you said, i single day, and like you said, victoria, _ single day, and like you said, victoria, their— single day, and like you said, victoria, their deaths- single day, and like you said, victoria, their deaths were i victoria, their deaths were avoidable _ victoria, their deaths were avoidable, they— victoria, their deaths were avoidable, they should i victoria, their deaths were i avoidable, they should have victoria, their deaths were - avoidable, they should have been here today, — avoidable, they should have been here today, starting _ avoidable, they should have been here today, starting school- avoidable, they should have been here today, starting school all- here today, starting school all starting — here today, starting school all starting their— here today, starting school all starting their new _ here today, starting school all starting their newjourneys, i here today, starting school all. starting their newjourneys, here with us— starting their newjourneys, here with us today _ starting their newjourneys, here with us today i— starting their new 'ourneys, here with us today.— starting their new “ourneys, here with us today. i want to read a list of those who _ with us today. i want to read a list of those who failed _ with us today. i want to read a list of those who failed you _ with us today. i want to read a list of those who failed you and i with us today. i want to read a list of those who failed you and your. of those who failed you and your loved ones. because it is shocking. and they failed you, according to

the inquiry chair, because they were either dishonest, greedy, incompetent or indifferent. consecutive governments, conservative, labour, the coalition and conservatives again. three cladding and insulation firms were dishonest about the testing of the materials. kensington and chelsea council, the tenant management organisation, the refurbishment contractor and subcontractors, the architects, the london fire brigade, the bodies that certified the cladding and insulation, saying they met with government guidance. all of these organisations and institutions and private firms failed to some extent or another. how do you respond to that? it extent or another. how do you respond to that?— extent or another. how do you respond to that? it is a long list which is even _ respond to that? it is a long list which is even longer _ respond to that? it is a long list which is even longer if - respond to that? it is a long list which is even longer if we i respond to that? it is a long list which is even longer if we go i respond to that? it is a long list. which is even longer if we go into individuals and talk about people's

roles within some of these departments and organisations. you have clearly seen here that we were failed across the board, notjust a department of government or the company that made the cladding, we were failed everywhere and it was not just were failed everywhere and it was notjust before and during the fire, it continued after the fire and we can talk more in a little bit about some of the roles of these corporations and how they continue to push their dangerous materials from systematic dishonesty, but it is crazy. how have we allowed it to get this far? how have we got to this point? seven years after which we need a report to tell us what we all kind of already really knew. it is all about what happens now. latte is all about what happens now. we will definitely talk about what you want to happen next, but how do you rationalise this, natasha? so many organisations, so many people involved are not one person to tip

their hand and said, this is a dishonest test all, oh, we have manipulated the results of this test, we are marketing this dishonestly. ihla test, we are marketing this dishonestly.— test, we are marketing this dishonestl. ., , , dishonestly. no biggie. isuppose it is tuite dishonestly. no biggie. isuppose it is quite difficult _ dishonestly. no biggie. isuppose it is quite difficult to _ dishonestly. no biggie. isuppose it is quite difficult to rationalise. i is quite difficult to rationalise. it was clear to us early on that no one, you have read the long list and it means across all of those organisations none of them will do the right thing. we have gone through a process where we have heard how document were destroyed. if we have heard the word i don't recall once, we have purchased 1 million times. certainly everyone had amnesia when it came to the right thing to do, so to try to rationalise it, it comes as no surprise as they have both said any of this, really. this is about now what happens next, and i think the biggest challenge here is we have been having these conversations with

various media outlets for the last seven years and even though we have this report which we have probably waited a little bit too long full but we are appreciative of what has happened in the last couple of years, even though we have it now, if i am honest it could be we were having the same conversations in 2018, 2019. we still have unsafe buildings, these culprits selling their products. we still have cultural issues. —— these corporates selling their products. we still haveissues selling their products. we still have issues within the london fire brigade. no one has moved to the fore within seven years... find brigade. no one has moved to the fore within seven years. . .- fore within seven years... and i should say. _ fore within seven years... and i should say. on _ fore within seven years... and i should say, on arconic, - fore within seven years. .. and i should say, on arconic, our- fore within seven years... and i i should say, on arconic, our product, arconic did the flammable cladding, was safe to use as a building material and legal to sell in the

uk, we reject any claim we sold an unsafe product.— uk, we reject any claim we sold an unsafe product._ they| unsafe product. outrageous. they refused to come _ unsafe product. outrageous. they refused to come to _ unsafe product. outrageous. they refused to come to the _ unsafe product. outrageous. they refused to come to the inquiry i unsafe product. outrageous. they| refused to come to the inquiry and give evidence, they refuse to go to the grenfell testimony week. that give evidence, they refuse to go to the grenfell testimony week. at the end of the day. _ the grenfell testimony week. at the end of the day, today _ the grenfell testimony week. at the end of the day, today is _ the grenfell testimony week. at the end of the day, today is about i end of the day, today is about defence. you asked how he rationalise it. nobody has put their hands up and people are still not. there are other statements where people are talking about it we accept historical failings, for example. tiago, let me look at a couple of governments identified in the report. between 2012 and 2017 the report. between 2012 and 2017 the coalition government and that the coalition government and that the conservatives, the department for communities and local government, the inquiry chair said it had multiple warnings in those five years about the risks of flammable cladding and insulation but they failed to act on what they knew. can you think of any explanation why they would not act?

i think one of the most important thing _ i think one of the most important thing since — i think one of the most important thing since privatisation, so the brei _ thing since privatisation, so the bre. the — thing since privatisation, so the bre, the regulator, at one point they were — bre, the regulator, at one point they were completely separate from government and that they were kind of brought— government and that they were kind of brought out. and by doing that, that's— of brought out. and by doing that, that's began to allow companies to kind of— that's began to allow companies to kind of pay— that's began to allow companies to kind of pay for their own testing which _ kind of pay for their own testing which then allowed them to fudge the results _ which then allowed them to fudge the results. �* ., , , which then allowed them to fudge the results. . ., , , . ., results. and as the inquiry chair said, the regulator— results. and as the inquiry chair said, the regulator was - results. and as the inquiry chair said, the regulator was not i said, the regulator was not independent.— said, the regulator was not inde-endent. , , ., said, the regulator was not inde-endent. ., independent. and because that was the case that _ independent. and because that was the case that allowed _ independent. and because that was the case that allowed the _ independent. and because that was the case that allowed the market i independent. and because that was the case that allowed the market to basically _ the case that allowed the market to basically regulate itself, and by regulating itself be allowed themselves to put themselves at a position— themselves to put themselves at a position to basically sell cladding but ended up going into the tower. at the _ but ended up going into the tower. at the end — but ended up going into the tower. at the end of the day, what we need to understand despite not having that independent body that cares niore _ that independent body that cares more about the needs of the people up more about the needs of the people up and _ more about the needs of the people up and down the country and instead trying _ up and down the country and instead trying to—

up and down the country and instead trying to focus on creating profits by putting themselves... by being able to— by putting themselves... by being able to sell all of this, i think... you _ able to sell all of this, i think... you know _ able to sell all of this, i think... you know- - -_ you know... the priorities were wroni ? you know... the priorities were wrong? yeah- _ you know. .. the priorities were wrong? yeah. it— you know. .. the priorities were wrong? yeah. it is— you know... the priorities were wrong? yeah. it is profit - you know... the priorities were wrong? yeah. it is profit before --eole, wrong? yeah. it is profit before people. that — wrong? yeah. it is profit before people. that is _ wrong? yeah. it is profit before people, that is what _ wrong? yeah. it is profit before people, that is what it - wrong? yeah. it is profit before people, that is what it boils i wrong? yeah. it is profit before i people, that is what it boils down to. ~ ., , , people, that is what it boils down to. , ., people, that is what it boils down to. ., ., , to. maybe also part of the reason is the extensive _ to. maybe also part of the reason is the extensive lobbying _ to. maybe also part of the reason is the extensive lobbying that - to. maybe also part of the reason is the extensive lobbying that has i to. maybe also part of the reason is| the extensive lobbying that has been allowed _ the extensive lobbying that has been allowed to _ the extensive lobbying that has been allowed to happen _ the extensive lobbying that has been allowed to happen between - allowed to happen between corporations _ allowed to happen between corporations and _ allowed to happen between i corporations and government. allowed to happen between - corporations and government. there have been— corporations and government. there have been some _ corporations and government. there have been some very— corporations and government. there have been some very cosy _ have been some very cosy relationships— have been some very cosy relationships between- have been some very cosy l relationships between some have been some very cosy i relationships between some of have been some very cosy _ relationships between some of these corporations— relationships between some of these corporations and _ relationships between some of these corporations and the _ relationships between some of these corporations and the government. i relationships between some of these l corporations and the government. we can't allow— corporations and the government. we can't allow corporations _ corporations and the government. we can't allow corporations to _ corporations and the government. we can't allow corporations to buy- corporations and the government. we can't allow corporations to buy time i can't allow corporations to buy time and be _ can't allow corporations to buy time and be allowed _ can't allow corporations to buy time and be allowed to _ can't allow corporations to buy time and be allowed to influence - can't allow corporations to buy time | and be allowed to influence building regulations— and be allowed to influence building regulations to — and be allowed to influence building regulations to the _ and be allowed to influence building regulations to the point _ and be allowed to influence building regulations to the point where i and be allowed to influence building regulations to the point where theyl regulations to the point where they are bragging — regulations to the point where they are bragging about _ regulations to the point where they are bragging about it, _ regulations to the point where they are bragging about it, driving - are bragging about it, driving around — are bragging about it, driving around london _ are bragging about it, driving around london and _ are bragging about it, driving around london and a - are bragging about it, driving around london and a pink- are bragging about it, driving| around london and a pink van are bragging about it, driving - around london and a pink van saying we have _ around london and a pink van saying we have entered _ around london and a pink van saying we have entered the _ around london and a pink van saying we have entered the building - we have entered the building regulations— we have entered the building regulations and _ we have entered the building regulations and entered i we have entered the building - regulations and entered parliament to help _ regulations and entered parliament to help shape — regulations and entered parliament to help shape building _ regulations and entered parliament to help shape building regulations, | to help shape building regulations, conipanies — to help shape building regulations, companies putting _ to help shape building regulations, companies putting up— to help shape building regulations, companies putting up pictures i to help shape building regulations, companies putting up pictures of. companies putting up pictures of number— companies putting up pictures of number ten _ companies putting up pictures of numberten with— companies putting up pictures of number ten with the _ companies putting up pictures of number ten with the door - companies putting up pictures of number ten with the door half . companies putting up pictures of- number ten with the door half open. it

number ten with the door half open. it says— number ten with the door half open. it says 1000 — number ten with the door half open. it says 1000 words. _ number ten with the door half open. it says 1000 words. maybe _ number ten with the door half open. it says 1000 words. maybe we - number ten with the door half open. it says 1000 words. maybe we needl number ten with the door half open. i it says 1000 words. maybe we need to look at _ it says 1000 words. maybe we need to look at that, _ it says 1000 words. maybe we need to look at that, looking _ it says 1000 words. maybe we need to look at that, looking at _ it says 1000 words. maybe we need to look at that, looking at regulating i look at that, looking at regulating lobbying _ look at that, looking at regulating lobbying and _ look at that, looking at regulating lobbying and not— look at that, looking at regulating lobbying and not allowing - look at that, looking at regulating lobbying and not allowing these . lobbying and not allowing these corporations _ lobbying and not allowing these corporations to _ lobbying and not allowing these corporations to buy— lobbying and not allowing these corporations to buy time - lobbying and not allowing these corporations to buy time and i corporations to buy time and influence _ corporations to buy time and influence policies— corporations to buy time and influence policies and - corporations to buy time and i influence policies and effectively be able — influence policies and effectively be able to — influence policies and effectively be able to create _ influence policies and effectively be able to create their _ influence policies and effectively be able to create their own - influence policies and effectively. be able to create their own system and mark— be able to create their own system and marktheir_ be able to create their own system and mark their own _ be able to create their own system and mark their own homework- be able to create their own system. and mark their own homework when things— and mark their own homework when things go— and mark their own homework when things go wrong _ and mark their own homework when things go wrong. the _ and mark their own homework when things go wrong-— and mark their own homework when things go wrong. the statement from that company — things go wrong. the statement from that company says — things go wrong. the statement from that company says we _ things go wrong. the statement from that company says we are _ things go wrong. the statement from | that company says we are considering the contents of the report with care. we have talked about the coalition and the conservatives, the last labour government failed to pay attention to striking results of a big test in 2001 which involved the panels which are burnt violently. they knew the results and they did nothing. they knew the results and they did nothinu. ., , they knew the results and they did nothinu. .,, _, , ., nothing. over the last couple of da s we nothing. over the last couple of days we have — nothing. over the last couple of days we have learned _ nothing. over the last couple of days we have learned that - nothing. over the last couple of days we have learned that since nothing. over the last couple of- days we have learned that since 1991 the government _ days we have learned that since 1991 the government has— days we have learned that since 1991 the government has known. - days we have learned that since 1991 the government has known. i'm - days we have learned that since 1991 the government has known. i'm not| the government has known. i'm not sure exactly— the government has known. i'm not sure exactly when _ the government has known. i'm not sure exactly when this _ the government has known. i'm not sure exactly when this fire - the government has known. i'm not sure exactly when this fire was - the government has known. i'm not sure exactly when this fire was but. sure exactly when this fire was but i sure exactly when this fire was but i believe _ sure exactly when this fire was but i believe it— sure exactly when this fire was but i believe it was _ sure exactly when this fire was but i believe it was in— sure exactly when this fire was but i believe it was in the _ sure exactly when this fire was but i believe it was in the 70s, - sure exactly when this fire was but i believe it was in the 70s, a - i believe it was in the 70s, a cladding _ i believe it was in the 70s, a cladding fire. _ i believe it was in the 70s, a cladding fire. we _ i believe it was in the 70s, a cladding fire. we had - i believe it was in the 70s, a cladding fire. we had an - i believe it was in the 70s, a - cladding fire. we had an inquiry, that was—

cladding fire. we had an inquiry, that was the _ cladding fire. we had an inquiry, that was the first _ cladding fire. we had an inquiry, that was the first opportunity - cladding fire. we had an inquiry, that was the first opportunity for the government— that was the first opportunity for the government to _ that was the first opportunity for the government to really - that was the first opportunity fori the government to really address that was the first opportunity for - the government to really address the issues _ the government to really address the issues of— the government to really address the issues of cladding _ the government to really address the issues of cladding fires _ the government to really address the issues of cladding fires and _ issues of cladding fires and dangerous— issues of cladding fires and dangerous materials - issues of cladding fires and dangerous materials on - issues of cladding fires and - dangerous materials on high—rise buildings — dangerous materials on high—rise buitdings and _ dangerous materials on high—rise buildings and that _ dangerous materials on high—rise buildings and that it _ dangerous materials on high—rise buildings and that it continued i buildings and that it continued throughout _ buildings and that it continued throughout. we _ buildings and that it continued throughout. we have - buildings and that it continued throughout. we have had - buildings and that it continued i throughout. we have had lakanal house, _ throughout. we have had lakanal house, we — throughout. we have had lakanal house, we keep— throughout. we have had lakanal house, we keep referring - throughout. we have had lakanal house, we keep referring to - throughout. we have had lakanal house, we keep referring to it. house, we keep referring to it because — house, we keep referring to it because that _ house, we keep referring to it because that was _ house, we keep referring to it because that was the - house, we keep referring to it because that was the most. house, we keep referring to it- because that was the most recent where _ because that was the most recent where people _ because that was the most recent where people died, _ because that was the most recent where people died, there - because that was the most recent where people died, there were i where people died, there were recommendations— where people died, there were recommendations and - where people died, there were recommendations and they - where people died, there were recommendations and they did nothing — recommendations and they did nothinu. ., days after the fire, emily spoke to the then pm theresa may. this was preventable, wasn't it? in 2013, a coroner had safety recommendations which included putting sprinklers in all these buildings, and it was never done. there were two types of material that could have been used in the cladding, one was flammable and one was fireproof, and the fireproof one cost £2 more. was that not £2 worth spending? we have yet to find out what the cause of the fire was. the fire brigade, the fire service are doing that. the public inquiry will get to the wider issues of responsibility in relation to this. just in terms of reassuring, there are 4000 other high—rise blocks, there are many, many residents tonight

wondering what kind of precautions you are taking. when will you be able to tell them that they are safe when they go to sleep in their beds? well, the government is doing everything in its power... when? to ensure that people are safe. we've identified those buildings, and over the weekend, now and over the weekend, people are going in and inspecting those buildings. we will do everything in our power to make sure that people are safe. you were all shaking your heads. that was literally two days after the fire — that was literally two days after the fire i — that was literally two days after the fire. ~ . , ., ~ the fire. i think we are shaking their heads — the fire. i think we are shaking their heads because _ the fire. i think we are shaking their heads because can - the fire. i think we are shaking their heads because can you i the fire. i think we are shaking i their heads because can you even begin to imagine that that was the statement made back then the? we are going into 4000 buildings this weekend and the commitment is to make people safe. you then have to

question, and a lot of stuff can be quite kneejerky and i get that because that is stuff going on than the government are up against it and say things they don't necessarily mean, but if you take it at face value that was the intention, what has happened in that time this start those buildings being made safe? 2300 high—rise buildings have not had remedial work to remove the cladding. had remedial work to remove the claddinu. , ., ~' had remedial work to remove the claddinu. , ., ,, �* cladding. they work hasn't even be . un. cladding. they work hasn't even begun- so _ cladding. they work hasn't even begun. so what _ cladding. they work hasn't even begun. so what is _ cladding. they work hasn't even begun. so what is going - cladding. they work hasn't even begun. so what is going on - cladding. they work hasn't even i begun. so what is going on behind the scenes that none of us are aware of that has prevented that from happening. we have heard a lot around welding owners who live overseas and the developers and all of that stuff. we hear a lot of that but if the sentiment, regardless of the type of building, social or private, is to keep people safe which is the obligation of the government, why has that not

happened yet? i think this boils down to the cosy relationships, and i will go as far as to say the civil service, because they are why a lot of stuff doesn't happen. i service, because they are why a lot of stuff doesn't happen.— of stuff doesn't happen. i would 'ust like of stuff doesn't happen. i would just like to _ of stuff doesn't happen. i would just like to read _ of stuff doesn't happen. i would just like to read your— of stuff doesn't happen. i would just like to read your statement| just like to read your statement from theresa may. "i would like to pay tribute to the bereaved families and the survivors for the dignity they have shown in the face of a tragedy so extreme, it is beyond our imagining." cani can i ask you all about the impact on your lives since then? natasha, for example, you rang the fire service at 1:28am and it didn't get out of that building until 4:47am. thiago, you moved into that tower when you were nine months old. you grew up there. what is the effect on your life since then the? it is your life since then the? it is interesting — your life since then the? it is interesting because - your life since then the? it s interesting because you see he moved interesting because you see he moved in when he was nine months old, i

have watched him grow into the young man that he is today. since then, it has been a whirlwind, really. we have been thrust into something that no one would ever dream of being. we all live very normal lives, that is all live very normal lives, that is a student, we were doing what normal people do. we went to sleep and woke up people do. we went to sleep and woke up the next morning and their whole lives completely changed and are still changed.— lives completely changed and are still chanced. . ., ., still changed. what about the impact on ou? still changed. what about the impact on you? growing _ still changed. what about the impact on you? growing up, _ still changed. what about the impact on you? growing up, the _ still changed. what about the impact on you? growing up, the whole - still changed. what about the impact| on you? growing up, the whole tower felt really much _ on you? growing up, the whole tower felt really much like _ on you? growing up, the whole tower felt really much like a _ on you? growing up, the whole tower felt really much like a community. . felt really much like a community. some _ felt really much like a community. some people say it takes a village to raise _ some people say it takes a village to raise a — some people say it takes a village to raise a child and i pretty much feel to raise a child and i pretty much feet with — to raise a child and i pretty much feel with that. i wouldn't be the feel with that. iwouldn't be the person— feel with that. i wouldn't be the person i— feel with that. i wouldn't be the person i was today if i didn't have the many— person i was today if i didn't have the many experiences from growing up with people around the tower. i had friends, _ with people around the tower. i had friends, family, or living in the tower, — friends, family, or living in the tower, people i would go to school with _ tower, people i would go to school with and — tower, people i would go to school with and i— tower, people i would go to school with. and i think again the only

reason — with. and i think again the only reason i — with. and i think again the only reason i am able to come out here and to— reason i am able to come out here and to be — reason i am able to come out here and to be able to have these conversations is because of how everyone — conversations is because of how everyone has inspired me and really .ave everyone has inspired me and really gave me _ everyone has inspired me and really gave me hope to kind of move forward and succeed _ gave me hope to kind of move forward and succeed in life. it is one of those — and succeed in life. it is one of those very— and succeed in life. it is one of those very strange things that i am moulded _ those very strange things that i am moulded by the people around me. one of the _ moulded by the people around me. one of the weird _ moulded by the people around me. one of the weird things was throughout my whole — of the weird things was throughout my whole life i didn't necessarily feel british, i always felt like an immigrant, but we lived in harmony and what _ immigrant, but we lived in harmony and what people would consider an immigrant — and what people would consider an immigrant community and it made me the person— immigrant community and it made me the person i_ immigrant community and it made me the person i am today, a person who continues— the person i am today, a person who continues to — the person i am today, a person who continues to interact with so many different— continues to interact with so many different cultures and people on a day—to—day basis. that night it realty— day—to—day basis. that night it really did — day—to—day basis. that night it really did break up a community guite _ really did break up a community quite a — really did break up a community quite a bit _ really did break up a community quite a bit. fortunately we have been _ quite a bit. fortunately we have been able — quite a bit. fortunately we have been able to stick together and we will continue to. it is only this

community feeling that gives us the strength— community feeling that gives us the strength to move forward. like community feeling that gives us the strength to move forward.— strength to move forward. like the other guys. — strength to move forward. like the other guys. this — strength to move forward. like the other guys, this has _ strength to move forward. like the other guys, this has completely . other guys, this has completely changed — other guys, this has completely changed our— other guys, this has completely changed our life. _ other guys, this has completely changed our life. it— other guys, this has completely changed our life. it is— other guys, this has completely changed our life. it is almost. other guys, this has completely. changed our life. it is almost like we have — changed our life. it is almost like we have seen— changed our life. it is almost like we have seen the _ changed our life. it is almost like we have seen the world - changed our life. it is almost like we have seen the world for - changed our life. it is almost like we have seen the world for a - we have seen the world for a completely— we have seen the world for a completely different - we have seen the world for a completely different place, i we have seen the world for a l completely different place, or through— completely different place, or through a _ completely different place, or through a different _ completely different place, or through a different lens - completely different place, or through a different lens are l completely different place, or- through a different lens are taking the blue _ through a different lens are taking the blue pitt— through a different lens are taking the blue pill or— through a different lens are taking the blue pill or whatever- through a different lens are taking the blue pill or whatever you - through a different lens are taking the blue pill or whatever you wanti the blue pill or whatever you want to catt— the blue pill or whatever you want to call it. — the blue pill or whatever you want to call it. we — the blue pill or whatever you want to call it, we can— the blue pill or whatever you want to call it, we can never— the blue pill or whatever you want to call it, we can never go- the blue pill or whatever you want to call it, we can never go back. the blue pill or whatever you want to call it, we can never go back to| to call it, we can never go back to how things — to call it, we can never go back to how things were _ to call it, we can never go back to how things were before. - to call it, we can never go back to how things were before. how- to call it, we can never go back to how things were before. how do i to call it, we can never go back to. how things were before. how do you move _ how things were before. how do you move on— how things were before. how do you move on from — how things were before. how do you move on from going _ how things were before. how do you move on from going through- how things were before. how do you i move on from going through something so catastrophic. — move on from going through something so catastrophic, and _ move on from going through something so catastrophic, and while _ move on from going through something so catastrophic, and while the - move on from going through something so catastrophic, and while the world - so catastrophic, and while the world witnessed _ so catastrophic, and while the world witnessed your— so catastrophic, and while the world witnessed your grief— so catastrophic, and while the world witnessed your grief was _ so catastrophic, and while the world witnessed your grief was public. - so catastrophic, and while the world | witnessed your grief was public. and as you _ witnessed your grief was public. and as you do _ witnessed your grief was public. and as you do what — witnessed your grief was public. and as you do what you _ witnessed your grief was public. and as you do what you do, _ witnessed your grief was public. and as you do what you do, you - witnessed your grief was public. and as you do what you do, you learn - witnessed your grief was public. and as you do what you do, you learn it. as you do what you do, you learn it was att— as you do what you do, you learn it was all a _ as you do what you do, you learn it was all a voluble _ as you do what you do, you learn it was all a voluble —— _ as you do what you do, you learn it was all a voluble —— avoidable - as you do what you do, you learn it was all a voluble —— avoidable andl was all a voluble —— avoidable and also corruption _ was all a voluble —— avoidable and also corruption and _ was all a voluble —— avoidable and also corruption and everything - was all a voluble —— avoidable and also corruption and everything we | also corruption and everything we learned _ also corruption and everything we learned today _ also corruption and everything we learned today. nothing _ also corruption and everything we learned today. nothing will - also corruption and everything we learned today. nothing will bring i learned today. nothing will bring anything — learned today. nothing will bring anything back— learned today. nothing will bring anything back for— learned today. nothing will bring anything back for us _ learned today. nothing will bring anything back for us and - learned today. nothing will bring anything back for us and that - learned today. nothing will bring anything back for us and that is i learned today. nothing will bring . anything back for us and that is the way we _ anything back for us and that is the way we try— anything back for us and that is the way we try to — anything back for us and that is the way we try to deal _ anything back for us and that is the way we try to deal with _ anything back for us and that is the way we try to deal with our- anything back for us and that is the way we try to deal with our grief, . way we try to deal with our grief, to make — way we try to deal with our grief, to make sure _ way we try to deal with our grief, to make sure we _ way we try to deal with our grief, to make sure we never— way we try to deal with our grief, to make sure we never wake - way we try to deal with our grief, to make sure we never wake up. way we try to deal with our grief, i to make sure we never wake up to another— to make sure we never wake up to another grenfell— to make sure we never wake up to another grenfell again, _ to make sure we never wake up to another grenfellagain, and - to make sure we never wake up to another grenfellagain, and as- to make sure we never wake up to i another grenfell again, and as close as that _ another grenfell again, and as close as that might— another grenfell again, and as close as that might have _ another grenfell again, and as close as that might have been _ another grenfell again, and as close as that might have been in - another grenfell again, and as close as that might have been in the - another grenfell again, and as close as that might have been in the last. as that might have been in the last few years — as that might have been in the last few years or—

as that might have been in the last few years or weeks, _ as that might have been in the last few years or weeks, that _ as that might have been in the last few years or weeks, that is - as that might have been in the last few years or weeks, that is really. few years or weeks, that is really scary— few years or weeks, that is really scary for— few years or weeks, that is really scary for us, _ few years or weeks, that is really scary for us, one _ few years or weeks, that is really scary for us, one of— few years or weeks, that is really scary for us, one of our— few years or weeks, that is really scary for us, one of our biggest l scary for us, one of our biggest fears — scary for us, one of our biggest fears so — scary for us, one of our biggest fears so we _ scary for us, one of our biggest fears. so we submerge - scary for us, one of our biggest| fears. so we submerge yourself scary for us, one of our biggest i fears. so we submerge yourself in the work— fears. so we submerge yourself in the work in — fears. so we submerge yourself in the work in the _ fears. so we submerge yourself in the work in the hope _ fears. so we submerge yourself in the work in the hope that - fears. so we submerge yourself in the work in the hope that one - fears. so we submerge yourself in the work in the hope that one day| fears. so we submerge yourself in i the work in the hope that one day we can rest— the work in the hope that one day we can rest easy — the work in the hope that one day we can rest easy. the _ the work in the hope that one day we can rest easy. the kids _ the work in the hope that one day we can rest easy. the kids and _ the work in the hope that one day we can rest easy. the kids and the - can rest easy. the kids and the families— can rest easy. the kids and the families we _ can rest easy. the kids and the families we lost _ can rest easy. the kids and the families we lost will— can rest easy. the kids and the families we lost will live - can rest easy. the kids and the| families we lost will live forever through— families we lost will live forever through the _ families we lost will live forever through the change _ families we lost will live forever through the change that - families we lost will live forever through the change that we - families we lost will live forever. through the change that we bring about— through the change that we bring about hopefutty _ through the change that we bring about hopefully one _ through the change that we bring about hopefully one day. - through the change that we bring about hopefully one day. we - through the change that we bring about hopefully one day.- about hopefully one day. we will talk about that _ about hopefully one day. we will talk about that change _ about hopefully one day. we will talk about that change in - about hopefully one day. we will talk about that change in a - about hopefully one day. we will - talk about that change in a moment. grenfell is a large community — involving many different people, families and groups. 0n the morning ofjune 14th i spoke to a dad who'd escaped from the fourth floor — the floor where the fire had started. he managed to get out with his partner and two young children. his name is mahad eghal and he's given us permisson to play an extract from his interview. he told me about the smoke as they tried to escape. it's incredible we survived. so many people were left inside. we had so many relatives and families and friends that called and said, "we are still trapped in, let the fire services know that we are still here, we are trapped." there is a kid that called and said he was trapped in his room. so... it's... you know, it's a very horrible situation. lives have been lost.

i can confirm lives have been lost, there has been fatalities of some of our friends, some of ourfamily, some of our loved ones, our neighbours. it's... i am really sorry. it's heart—aching, it really is. how could this...? wow. we saw a lot. we saw a lot, man. we saw a lot with our own eyes. we saw... we saw friends, families... honestly, it's all right, you don't have to say any more. i'm so sorry. i spoke to mahad tonight and he told me he was satisfied with the report — it put in black and white he said, what people like him and many others had been saying essentially since day one. let's talk to kate lamble, host of the bbc podcast grenfell: building a disaster. kate has followed the

inquiry since it began. what struck you about this huge report? what struck you about this huge re ort? ~ . what struck you about this huge reort? ~ . .,, what struck you about this huge reort? . , , , what struck you about this huge reort? . , ,, report? what was surprising about the re ort report? what was surprising about the report was _ report? what was surprising about the report was how _ report? what was surprising about the report was how little _ report? what was surprising about the report was how little was - the report was how little was surprising. when you watch the evidence over the six years as i have, the inquiry has heard in detail about the missed opportunities that were experienced in those years. what was noticeable about the evidence was how little responsibility organisations took for their part in the fire. often you would see evidence that said someone else should be checking on they pointed to another person. the inquiry called it a merry—go—round of buckpassing and they drew a big diagram that looked like spaghetti dropped on the floor. this report is about unpicking the web of accusations and laying out the responsibility very clearly. there are over 50 _

responsibility very clearly. there are over 50 recommendations i responsibility very clearly. there i are over 50 recommendations and responsibility very clearly. there are over 50 recommendations and we will here form a government minister any moment, but it is notjust about practical stuff that needs to change. it is about a whole culture. we have the recommendations and some of them are very easy like inspecting the london fire brigade but some are bigger involving an entire industry. they're talking about a consultation on getting rid of private building control which is the organisation that checks buildings for safety and how to extract commercialisation from issues of safety. if this inquiry has found that his decades worth of failure and about layers and layers of different organisations, how can any number of create that sizeable cultural change that might be needed to address those problems. just before we came on air i spoke to the housing minister matthew pennycook. i asked him about some of failings of the last labour government identified in today's report. the report is very clear. it was failures from successive governments of all colours, from the knowsley fire,

if you like, in 1991, all the way up to grenfell. i think it's... without being too party political about it, i think one of the key findings is by 2016, the department was clearly aware of the risks and had had multiple opportunities to act on them. so in no sense am i dismissing any blame on the part of the previous labour government, but i think it was a failure over many, many years by many governments not to act. the housing department, in 2001, again under a labour government, also knew about the risks. the report points out that it failed to pay due regard to the "striking results" — the inquiry chair�*s words — of a large scale test in 2001 involving the acm panels, the flammable panels which burned violently, or to take any steps either to ascertain the extent to which panels of that kind were being used, or to warn the construction industry about the risks they posed. so they knew and did nothing? yeah, and i think the report

is very clear on that. and we fully accept the role that government has played over many decades in not preventing this tragedy. as i say, i think what viewers will want to know is — are buildings safe now? the regime that's been put in place in recent years, following damejudith hackitt�*s 2018 report, is a very different one that existed at the time of the grenfell fire. is it a regime that we can be absolutely confident ensures that every building is safe? i'm not sure we can make that call. we've got to make further changes, we think, in terms of regulation, potentially legislation. keir starmer said in the commons today he was going to write to all the companies found by the inquiry to be part of these horrific failings as the first step to stopping them being awarded government contracts. is that it — a letter? a letter is a first step to stopping them getting government contracts. a first step? what do you mean? well, it's the companies identified in the report. yeah. i think there's a complex system here around contracting, subcontracting where public money is flowing to. the cabinet office, i think, will do

a review of all of that environment. the cps say there is no chance of prosecutions, if any, for at least a couple of years. that would be heading towards a decade after the grenfell tower fire. keir starmer is obviously a former director of public prosecutions. is that really good enough? i don't think it is good enough. and while the inquiry, which was extremely detailed, exhaustive and it had to be lengthy, but i understand, if you like, if you're a survivor, if you're a bereaved family member, if you're part of the wider community that was directly impacted, why that feels like a... why that feels like a very, very long time. the met investigation is incredibly legally complex. it's got to run its course, we don't want to prejudice any future prosecution, but that investigation has to proceed very quickly now. for the people who still live in thousands of buildings with unsafe cladding, when will it be removed? it depends in terms

of what the specific conditions are on each building. can you...? as a government, can you speed it up? we can speed it up. we intend to bring forward a remediation acceleration plan in the autumn. we've got to review how leaseholders are better protected from costs. we've got to accelerate the pace of remediation. but looking under the bonnet, we found a number of challenges. for example, we don't know for certain that all of the buildings that are dangerous have been identified. 0k. matthew pennycook, thank you very much for talking to newsnight. thank you very much. so it may be a couple of years before we hear about any charges. what does justice look like for you to? i what does 'ustice look like for you to? ~ what does 'ustice look like for you to? .. ~ what does 'ustice look like for you to? ~' . , . , to? i think the ultimate 'ustice is criminal prosecution. _ to? i think the ultimate 'ustice is criminal prosecution. i h to? i think the ultimatejustice is criminal prosecution. i think- to? i think the ultimatejustice is criminal prosecution. i think that i criminal prosecution. i think that those who are accountable for what happened on that night and to our loved ones are held to the highest

possible criminal prosecution that they can be, but it is a long way off. we are under no illusions about that. we knew many years ago that it wasn't going to be as quick as we would have liked it to have been. [30 would have liked it to have been. do you have confidence that you will see justice? you have confidence that you will seejustice? i you have confidence that you will see justice?— you have confidence that you will see justice? seejustice? i think... you have to have hope. _ seejustice? i think... you have to have hope. i— seejustice? i think... you have to have hope, i don't— seejustice? i think... you have to have hope, i don't know _ seejustice? i think... you have to have hope, i don't know about - have hope, i don't know about confidence. i have hope, i don't know about confidence.— have hope, i don't know about confidence. . , , ., , , confidence. i mean, my problem is, and my trouble _ confidence. i mean, my problem is, and my trouble with _ confidence. i mean, my problem is, and my trouble with this _ confidence. i mean, my problem is, and my trouble with this whole - and my trouble with this whole police — and my trouble with this whole police thing _ and my trouble with this whole police thing and _ and my trouble with this whole police thing and i _ and my trouble with this whole police thing and i have - and my trouble with this whole police thing and i have said - and my trouble with this whole| police thing and i have said this and my trouble with this whole . police thing and i have said this a lot, because _ police thing and i have said this a lot, because i_ police thing and i have said this a lot, because i think— police thing and i have said this a lot, because i think it _ police thing and i have said this a lot, because i think it is - police thing and i have said this a lot, because i think it is really. lot, because i think it is really important. _ lot, because i think it is really important, the _ lot, because i think it is really important, the police - lot, because i think it is really important, the police never. lot, because i think it is really. important, the police never went lot, because i think it is really- important, the police never went and seized _ important, the police never went and seized any— important, the police never went and seized any evidence. _ important, the police never went and seized any evidence. i— important, the police never went and seized any evidence. i struggled - important, the police never went and seized any evidence. i struggled to i seized any evidence. i struggled to come _ seized any evidence. i struggled to come to— seized any evidence. i struggled to come to terms _ seized any evidence. i struggled to come to terms with _ seized any evidence. i struggled to come to terms with that. - seized any evidence. i struggled to come to terms with that. the - seized any evidence. i struggled to| come to terms with that. the police never _ come to terms with that. the police never went — come to terms with that. the police never went and _ come to terms with that. the police never went and seized _ come to terms with that. the police never went and seized any - come to terms with that. the police never went and seized any evidencei never went and seized any evidence from any— never went and seized any evidence from any individual— never went and seized any evidence from any individual or— never went and seized any evidence from any individual or corporate - from any individual or corporate entity— from any individual or corporate entity or— from any individual or corporate entity or organisation, - from any individual or corporate entity or organisation, and - from any individual or corporate entity or organisation, and we l from any individual or corporate . entity or organisation, and we see the repercussions _ entity or organisation, and we see the repercussions of _ entity or organisation, and we see the repercussions of that - entity or organisation, and we see the repercussions of that in - entity or organisation, and we see the repercussions of that in the i the repercussions of that in the public— the repercussions of that in the public inquiry _ the repercussions of that in the public inquiry later— the repercussions of that in the public inquiry later with - the repercussions of that in the public inquiry later with bend i public inquiry later with bend diaries— public inquiry later with bend diaries and _ public inquiry later with bend diaries and destroyed - public inquiry later with bend i diaries and destroyed laptops. public inquiry later with bend - diaries and destroyed laptops. they

bra- diaries and destroyed laptops. they brag about— diaries and destroyed laptops. they brag about football— diaries and destroyed laptops. they brag about football fields _ diaries and destroyed laptops. they brag about football fields worth - diaries and destroyed laptops. they brag about football fields worth of. brag about football fields worth of evidence — brag about football fields worth of evidence and _ brag about football fields worth of evidence and documents, - brag about football fields worth of evidence and documents, and - brag about football fields worth of evidence and documents, and i. brag about football fields worth ofi evidence and documents, and i am brag about football fields worth of- evidence and documents, and i am not an expert _ evidence and documents, and i am not an expert but — evidence and documents, and i am not an expert but when _ evidence and documents, and i am not an expert but when you _ evidence and documents, and i am not an expert but when you are _ evidence and documents, and i am not an expert but when you are a - an expert but when you are a corporation _ an expert but when you are a corporation and _ an expert but when you are a corporation and you - an expert but when you are a corporation and you are - an expert but when you are a i corporation and you are asked an expert but when you are a - corporation and you are asked to hand _ corporation and you are asked to hand over— corporation and you are asked to hand over evidence _ corporation and you are asked to hand over evidence that - corporation and you are asked to hand over evidence that can - hand over evidence that can incriminate _ hand over evidence that can incriminate you _ hand over evidence that can incriminate you there - hand over evidence that can incriminate you there are i hand over evidence that can . incriminate you there are going hand over evidence that can - incriminate you there are going to overwhelm — incriminate you there are going to overwhelm you _ incriminate you there are going to overwhelm you with _ incriminate you there are going to overwhelm you with a _ incriminate you there are going to overwhelm you with a lot - incriminate you there are going to overwhelm you with a lot of- incriminate you there are going to overwhelm you with a lot of clap. | incriminate you there are going to| overwhelm you with a lot of clap. i don't _ overwhelm you with a lot of clap. i don't have — overwhelm you with a lot of clap. i don't have confidence _ overwhelm you with a lot of clap. i don't have confidence but- overwhelm you with a lot of clap. i don't have confidence but i- overwhelm you with a lot of clap. i don't have confidence but i have i overwhelm you with a lot of clap. i| don't have confidence but i have to be optimistic— don't have confidence but i have to be optimistic and _ don't have confidence but i have to be optimistic and i— don't have confidence but i have to be optimistic and i have _ don't have confidence but i have to be optimistic and i have to - don't have confidence but i have to be optimistic and i have to hope i be optimistic and i have to hope they do— be optimistic and i have to hope they do their— be optimistic and i have to hope they do theirjob _ be optimistic and i have to hope they do theirjob and _ be optimistic and i have to hope they do theirjob and bring - be optimistic and i have to hope| they do theirjob and bring about charges — they do theirjob and bring about charges am _ they do theirjob and bring about charges am i— they do theirjob and bring about charges. am i confident- they do theirjob and bring about charges. am i confident in- they do theirjob and bring about charges. am i confident in that l charges. am i confident in that being _ charges. am i confident in that being the — charges. am i confident in that being the case? _ charges. am i confident in that being the case? not— charges. am i confident in that being the case? not so- charges. am i confident in that being the case? not so much. i being the case? not so much. tomorrows _ being the case? not so much. tomorrow's front— being the case? not so much. tomorrow's front pages - being the case? not so much. tomorrow's front pages as i being the case? not so much. | tomorrow's front pages as you being the case? not so much. i tomorrow's front pages as you can imagine all about the conclusion of the inquiry report today. you can see them on your screens right now. we're going to pause there. as we come to the end of the programme we're going to hear some of the words written by booker prize winner ben okri. ben wrote a poem immediately after the fire called — grenfell tower, june, 2017 — to raise funds for survivors and relatives of the victims. ben is going to read us some of it.