is it a labour love—in with the unions? a fresh test lies ahead. and fearing homelessness — the couple who escaped this horror fire ten days ago.

keir starmer addresses the trades unions next week, facing calls to raise tax. he'll be the first labour prime minister at their conference in 15 years with some big pay deals forjunior doctors and train drivers already signed. here tonight are francis o'grady, who ran the tuc, which says the uk lags behind other western nations in worker protection and reward. and salma shah, one—time advisor to the conservatives, the party which says labour's busy writing blank cheques to its mates. if it looks like a big tilt in a couple of months from the tories and their attitude to workers, and labour and their attitude to workers, that is because it is a big tilt? �* ., , , ., . tilt? i'm not sure it is that much of a big tilt _ tilt? i'm not sure it is that much of a big tilt and _ tilt? i'm not sure it is that much of a big tilt and there _ tilt? i'm not sure it is that much of a big tilt and there were - tilt? i'm not sure it is that much| of a big tilt and there were many voices in the conservatives that recognise that there had to be pay

deals that would secure public services... deals that would secure public services- - -_ deals that would secure public services... �* , ., ., ., services... but 'ust do not do them? there was services... butjust do not do them? there was absolutely _ services... butjust do not do them? there was absolutely a _ services... butjust do not do them? there was absolutely a problem - there was absolutely a problem in the fact that decisions were not being made and things were not getting through and that is the result of the government collapsing which is why you saw the electoral result that you did. the issue is, yes, workers' rights have got to be protected and there is absolutely a problem with rising inflation and public sector salaries not keeping pace with that, and as we have discussed previously, what that does to recruitment in those really importantjobs, in the nhs, for example, but the political difficulty that the chancellor is going to face is that you have public sector pay deals which will then be pitted against things like winter fuel allowance being taken winter fuel allowance being ta ken away winter fuel allowance being taken away from elderly people. i will winter fuel allowance being taken away from elderly people. i will get to that. away from elderly people. i will get to that- but — away from elderly people. i will get to that. but i'm — away from elderly people. i will get to that. but i'm surprised _ away from elderly people. i will get to that. but i'm surprised you - away from elderly people. i will get to that. but i'm surprised you are i to that. but i'm surprised you are swerving for what must feel like a root and branch change in attitude is a conservative government are

planned with the ministers who would not sit at the table with trade unionists, to one that does deals. the context for this is covid, let's be honest. — the context for this is covid, let's be honest, where as the recent inquiry— be honest, where as the recent inquiry fan, we had to staff and hundreds— inquiry fan, we had to staff and hundreds of thousands of vacancies -- the _ hundreds of thousands of vacancies —— the recent inquiry found. the -- the recent inquiry found. the context is _ -- the recent inquiry found. the context is a _ —— the recent inquiry found. tie: context is a general —— the recent inquiry found. tt;e: context is a general election and both of you are telling me nothing has changed, but we think everything has changed, but we think everything has changed. has changed, but we think everything has changed-— has changed, but we think everything has chanced. , ., , . ., has changed. everything has changed. the conservatives, _ has changed. everything has changed. the conservatives, when _ has changed. everything has changed. the conservatives, when i _ has changed. everything has changed. the conservatives, when i was - has changed. everything has changed. the conservatives, when i was to - has changed. everything has changed. the conservatives, when i was to let l the conservatives, when i was to let the tuc, _ the conservatives, when i was to let the tuc, ministers would not sit down _ the tuc, ministers would not sit down with— the tuc, ministers would not sit down with representatives of those unions, _ down with representatives of those unions, and ministers were the first to walk_ unions, and ministers were the first to walk out — unions, and ministers were the first to walk out and that is when we saw record _ to walk out and that is when we saw record levels of... so to walk out and that is when we saw record levels of. . ._ record levels of... so you are sa in: record levels of... so you are saying it _ record levels of... so you are saying it was _ record levels of... so you are saying it was rubbish, - record levels of... so you are saying it was rubbish, even i record levels of... so you are - saying it was rubbish, even though she is saying there is nothing to see here? i she is saying there is nothing to see here? .. ., she is saying there is nothing to see here?— see here? i cannot tell you the de th of see here? i cannot tell you the depth of feeling _ see here? i cannot tell you the depth of feeling there - see here? i cannot tell you the depth of feeling there is - see here? i cannot tell you the depth of feeling there is in - see here? i cannot tell you the depth of feeling there is in the | depth of feeling there is in the trade — depth of feeling there is in the trade union movement and the labour movemerit— trade union movement and the labour movement about the insult that was given— movement about the insult that was given to _

movement about the insult that was given to key workers who had put their— given to key workers who had put their lives — given to key workers who had put their lives on the line for the rest of us _ their lives on the line for the rest of us and — their lives on the line for the rest of us. and also, we have had a couple — of us. and also, we have had a couple of decades of falling living standards, and real cuts in pay. the thin i standards, and real cuts in pay. the thing i want — standards, and real cuts in pay. thing i want to standards, and real cuts in pay. tug; thing i want to address standards, and real cuts in pay. tt9: thing i want to address is standards, and real cuts in pay. tt9 thing i want to address is that we are talking about specific negotiations and the sentiment within the conservatives and a conservative like me, was about how do we get to that deal, how do we do something that is affordable and acceptable, and i'm not saying that was evident in all the negotiations, certainly not, and there are conservatives that would have wanted to see negotiations go a lot better than they did, so what i'm saying, the sentiment that is shared is the same, and i understand why the labour government has agreed to the pay deals and i know why they have come in quick succession because their mission is about delivery and you cannot do that without public sector workers, you cannot do that without public sectorworkers, but you cannot do that without public sector workers, but i think the politics of this again some of the decisions that rachel reeves is going to make could be very difficult for her after her first

budget. difficult for her after her first budaet. , , :, , ., budget. this is not 'ust about 'ustice budget. this is not 'ust about justice for h budget. this is not 'ust about justice for public _ budget. this is notjust about justice for public sector - budget. this is notjust about i justice for public sector workers who have — justice for public sector workers who have seen real cuts to their pay, _ who have seen real cuts to their pay, it _ who have seen real cuts to their pay. it is— who have seen real cuts to their pay, it is also about the economy, and it— pay, it is also about the economy, and if you — pay, it is also about the economy, and if you cannot get people back to work because they are sick, if you cannot— work because they are sick, if you cannot educate people and train them with the _ cannot educate people and train them with the skills we need to rebuild grow. _ with the skills we need to rebuild grow, then we are in trouble. fiddly grow, then we are in trouble. oddly enou~h, grow, then we are in trouble. oddly enough. was _ grow, then we are in trouble. oddly enough, was actually _ grow, then we are in trouble. orri enough, was actually agreeing with you, there was an outbreak of agreement —— salma was actually agreeing with you. in terms of political red meat, robertjenrick, the leading conservative candidate at the moment, but only talking the talk but walking the walk, walking and talking about this subject and we can listen to him on the link between pensioners and train drivers. it says a lot about keir starmer�*s politics, from the choices he's making, what he's spending money on and how he's funding it. he's chosen to give well—paid train drivers a £10,000 a year pay rise without settling the strikes. how is he funding this?

by cutting the winter fuel payments for 10 million pensioners, just as energy prices are rising. you are now advising robertjenrick, you are writing his scripts? i’m you are now advising robert jenrick, you are writing his scripts?— you are writing his scripts? i'm not advisin: you are writing his scripts? i'm not advising him- _ you are writing his scripts? i'm not advising him. but _ you are writing his scripts? i'm not advising him. but that _ you are writing his scripts? i'm not advising him. but that is _ you are writing his scripts? i'm not advising him. but that is the - you are writing his scripts? i'm not advising him. but that is the point| advising him. but that is the point ou are advising him. but that is the point you are making- _ advising him. but that is the point you are making. i _ advising him. but that is the point you are making. i can _ advising him. but that is the point you are making. i can see - advising him. but that is the point you are making. i can see how- advising him. but that is the point| you are making. i can see how that would be a — you are making. i can see how that would be a political— you are making. i can see how that would be a political tactic- you are making. i can see how that would be a political tactic that - you are making. i can see how that would be a political tactic that any| would be a political tactic that any of the leadership candidates in the opposition would use against the chancellor because she has very difficult decisions and the reason thatis difficult decisions and the reason that is going to be political salient is that there will be a feeling, especially for older people who cannot work their way out of any potential poverty, that they do not have the opportunity to be able to have the opportunity to be able to have the opportunity to be able to have the same standards of living is train drivers or anybody else who had an inflation busting salary. the conservatives are trying to stir up

that feeling but of course it is nonsense _ that feeling but of course it is nonsense because the chancellor has made clear— nonsense because the chancellor has made clear that the triple lock has atready— made clear that the triple lock has already delivered an extra £900 on pensions _ already delivered an extra £900 on pensions this year, outstripping the winter allowance being removed for better— winter allowance being removed for better off pensioners, and that they will be having more to come the following year. the key issue here is that— following year. the key issue here is that the — following year. the key issue here is that the triple lock is also based — is that the triple lock is also based on _ is that the triple lock is also based on pay, pay, inflation, and the 25%~ — based on pay, pay, inflation, and the 2.596. :, :, :, :, the 2.596. you are moving what the ke issue the 2.596. you are moving what the key issue is — the 2.596. you are moving what the key issue is because _ the 2.596. you are moving what the key issue is because what - the 2.596. you are moving what the key issue is because what we - the 2.596. you are moving what the key issue is because what we are l key issue is because what we are talking about now is the political pressure and i'm looking at the front page of the financial times, the first time we can ever get this up at the right time. rachel reeves faces whitehall cuts revolt. is your successor for novak wrong to call for an increase in capital gains tax up for an increase in capital gains tax up to the top level attacks, for instance? —— paul novak. up to the top level attacks, for instance? -- paul novak. i believe he is absolutely right _ instance? -- paul novak. i believe he is absolutely right because - instance? -- paul novak. i believe he is absolutely right because i - he is absolutely right because i have called for it myself, and i think— have called for it myself, and i think the prime minister has been

clear— think the prime minister has been clear that — think the prime minister has been clear that those with the broadest shoulders— clear that those with the broadest shoulders should take their fair share _ shoulders should take their fair share and — shoulders should take their fair share and yet we have a situation where _ share and yet we have a situation where people who work in social care or shops _ where people who work in social care or shops or warehouses are effectively paying a higher rate of tax on people who get their money from shares and property. that does not feel— from shares and property. that does not feel right. i think they will be many voices encouraging the chancellor to have a look at equalising income tax and capital gains _ equalising income tax and capital gains tax — equalising income tax and capital gains tax will top this is how it is looking. — gains tax will top this is how it is lookin: , ,, ., , looking, keir starmer will be applauded by _ looking, keir starmer will be applauded by the tuc - applauded by the tuc conference attendees, but also calls for tax rises, a gift to the unions, and it will look for the tories, like red meat, back to the 70s, keir starmer is of with the party that funds him. —— is off. is of with the party that funds him. -- is off. . , ., -- is off. that will be a powerful oint -- is off. that will be a powerful point because — -- is off. that will be a powerful point because during _ -- is off. that will be a powerful point because during the - -- is off. that will be a powerful point because during the labouri point because during the labour election campaign there was not clarity about what was going to go up clarity about what was going to go up so it will feel like a surprise

to people, and it's something you said i want to pick up on, you said it is tory sentiments that are stirring this, but there are people i speak to who have had their winter fuel, orwho i speak to who have had their winter fuel, or who will have that taken away, it is response to how people are feeling and you cannot dismiss that, although i understand what you are saying about the impact on public services, and we agree with each other there. it public services, and we agree with each other there.— each other there. it needed to be improved- _ each other there. it needed to be improved. absolutely. _ each other there. it needed to be improved. absolutely. nobody. each other there. it needed to be - improved. absolutely. nobody wants to be in this — improved. absolutely. nobody wants to be in this position, _ improved. absolutely. nobody wants to be in this position, we _ improved. absolutely. nobody wants to be in this position, we have - improved. absolutely. nobody wants to be in this position, we have got i to be in this position, we have got the famous — to be in this position, we have got the famous £22 billion black hole. there _ the famous £22 billion black hole. there is— the famous £22 billion black hole. there is a — the famous £22 billion black hole. there is a question the chancellor needs to answer about how she has got to rationalise this to those who are struggling without winter fuel payments will top but there's a difference between that and what the conservatives are trying to do which is that train — conservatives are trying to do which is that train drivers, _ conservatives are trying to do which is that train drivers, who _ conservatives are trying to do which is that train drivers, who are - conservatives are trying to do which is that train drivers, who are not on £65.000 _ is that train drivers, who are not on £65,000 per year, is that train drivers, who are not on £65,000 peryear, their is that train drivers, who are not on £65,000 per year, their starting salary— on £65,000 per year, their starting salary is _ on £65,000 per year, their starting salary is £24,000. in

on £65,000 per year, their starting salary is 94.000.— on £65,000 per year, their starting salary is £24,000. in some parts of the country — salary is £24,000. in some parts of the country it _ salary is £24,000. in some parts of the country it is _ salary is £24,000. in some parts of the country it is a _ salary is £24,000. in some parts of the country it is a starter. _ salary is £24,000. in some parts of the country it is a starter. it - salary is £24,000. in some parts of the country it is a starter. it is - salary is £24,000. in some parts of the country it is a starter. it is a - the country it is a starter. it is a nutcracker for keir starmer, if you agree, especially if you listen to this. here's adrian ramsay co—leader of the green party. i proudly championed a wealth tax during the general election campaign, and i will do the same on budget day, and i will do the same every single day. i hear this government claim that we can't afford to pay for the necessary climate action, or to make sure everyone has a safe, affordable, warm home, or to fund our much loved nhs. applause. so you can now see from the left a challenge in parliament, from people saying there needs to be higher taxes to pay for the welfare state and all of the things that rachel reeves said she would not raise taxes on. .: , , taxes on. rachel reeves said she would not raise _ taxes on. rachel reeves said she would not raise taxes _ taxes on. rachel reeves said she would not raise taxes on - taxes on. rachel reeves said she would not raise taxes on working | would not raise taxes on working people. — would not raise taxes on working

people, and i think what many of us are saying _ people, and i think what many of us are saying is, we need to start tackling — are saying is, we need to start tackling wealth inequality. you a . ree tackling wealth inequality. you agree with _ tackling wealth inequality. you agree with the _ tackling wealth inequality. ym. agree with the green party? tackling wealth inequality. you i agree with the green party? the tackling wealth inequality. you - agree with the green party? the tuc has been arguing _ agree with the green party? the tuc has been arguing for— agree with the green party? the tuc has been arguing for this _ agree with the green party? the tuc has been arguing for this for - agree with the green party? the tuc has been arguing for this for a - agree with the green party? the tuc has been arguing for this for a lot - has been arguing for this for a lot longer— has been arguing for this for a lot longer than others and we have always— longer than others and we have always said that that wealth tax is needed _ always said that that wealth tax is needed. . . always said that that wealth tax is needed. ,, ., , . needed. shall we predict, capital cains needed. shall we predict, capital gains taxes _ needed. shall we predict, capital gains taxes going _ needed. shall we predict, capital gains taxes going up _ needed. shall we predict, capital gains taxes going up in _ needed. shall we predict, capital gains taxes going up in october, | gains taxes going up in october, shall we predict? t gains taxes going up in october, shall we predict?— gains taxes going up in october, shall we predict? i have said that for a lona shall we predict? i have said that for a long time. _ shall we predict? i have said that for a long time. that _ shall we predict? i have said that for a long time. that is _ shall we predict? i have said that for a long time. that is down - shall we predict? i have said that for a long time. that is down to i shall we predict? i have said that i for a long time. that is down to the chancellor- — for a long time. that is down to the chancellor. yes, _ for a long time. that is down to the chancellor. yes, but _ for a long time. that is down to the chancellor. yes, but this _ for a long time. that is down to the chancellor. yes, but this is - for a long time. that is down to the chancellor. yes, but this is a - chancellor. yes, but this is a prediction- — chancellor. yes, but this is a prediction. i— chancellor. yes, but this is a prediction. i hope _ chancellor. yes, but this is a prediction. i hope that - chancellor. yes, but this is a prediction. i hope that we i prediction. i hope that we see alongside _ prediction. i hope that we see alongside the _ prediction. i hope that we see alongside the issue _ prediction. i hope that we see alongside the issue of - prediction. i hope that we see l alongside the issue of non-dom prediction. i hope that we see - alongside the issue of non-dom and alongside the issue of non—dom and vat on _ alongside the issue of non—dom and vat on private schools and windfall taxes _ vat on private schools and windfall taxes on _ vat on private schools and windfall taxes on oil — vat on private schools and windfall taxes on oil and gas, i hope that we see a _ taxes on oil and gas, i hope that we see a reset — taxes on oil and gas, i hope that we see a reset on wealth taxes in the uk. ~ see a reset on wealth taxes in the uk. : :, see a reset on wealth taxes in the uk. ~ :, :, :, . :, see a reset on wealth taxes in the uk. we are going to come back to this a lot but _ uk. we are going to come back to this a lot but i — uk. we are going to come back to this a lot but i think— uk. we are going to come back to this a lot but | think | _ uk. we are going to come back to this a lot but i think i got - uk. we are going to come back to this a lot but i think i got your - this a lot but i think i got your prediction and i certainly got yours. they will be more injust a moment. residents who escaped a high—rise fire days before the publication of the grenfell report say some

of them face being homeless on monday. around 100 people fled the flames in dagenham on their block where scaffolding was up to replace at—risk cladding. newsnight has spoken to one couple who filmed their exit facing padlocked doors. they're now being housed in a hotel, afraid they've nowhere to go after the weekend. i spoke to kasja earlier and started by asking her to describe the moment she realised her block was on fire. you know, when we wake up. we don't know it's fire because it's no alarm. so i'm saying to my husband, something has happened, something has happened. so when are we going outside? it'sjust like smoke in the corridor. one side is very big smoke. one side is less.

so we choose just left side. to going outside. and we'rejust going to emergency exit. and the dog did more work to save you than the fire alarm? of course, maybe we just that maybe when it's not, when we not have dog in the home. what were you able to take from your flat last monday? what could you take out of the flat? wejust take... ijust pick up small dog because because i'm worried about dog. and we just took a passport and that's it. tell me what you filmed on the scaffolding. i'm just looking at scaffolding. when we're going outside, its like scaffolding is in the fire. people, so much screaming. we can't go out because it's

padlocked outside in the gate. and police help us to going out. not fire people, just police. we find the ladder and we justjump in the ladder and police man hejumping us from another side. my husband, he helped people going out from the gate. of course we are in shock because i'm just crying when i'm done this video. it's very bad news from today. we can take nothing because the sixth floor is completely damaged and five floors is same damage and we can take nothing. and your husband, who i've met, is an electrician. what's happened to his equipment? eerything he tells us is damaged. so my husband, he's not working because everything left in the house so he can't find a job now.

because all staff from work for my husband is damage. so he already lost the job. yeah, we have very bad news today, so i don't believe. because anyway. it's so much different in my country. it's more than my government, more help people in my country, everything be all right. but at this moment anyway, i can't talk. no, i know it's the waiting. i've met you and you've explained the stress to me. how much is it difficult for you not knowing where you will live next week?

i can't work. i can't sleep because i'm just worried what's happening next monday. we know people are working very hard. i've heard you've given some criticism in your position with no home and you've lost everything, but can you tell me what you need to hear and what you need most urgently? what i need now i need to know, just government. he gave me just place for stay. i don't care about stuff. i don't care now about stuff. london fire brigade are investigating the cause of the fire, which is not yet known. barking and dagenham council told newsnight it knows some hotel bookings are coming to an end on monday, but it will be renewing bookings for those who need emergency accommodation, and that all residents have been informed of the hotel extension process. block management, which manages the building, said: "we are working with all parties involved to ensure the safety and well—being of residents and continue to provide regular updates. "

martina lees is the senior property writer at the sunday times and the times who's dedicated much of her work to investigating the building safety scandal. martina, shall we start with that account, no firm home on monday when i spoke to her this afternoon. tt really makes me angry to hear that. i have been writing about the cladding scandal but almost since the grenfell fire and her story is not the first i have heard. i spoke to another woman who bought her flat three years ago, nine months after she bought it she was forced to move out because the building is so unsafe that no one is allowed to live there. she has been homeless for three years, living in a tiny room in a student hostel washing her clothes in the bathroom. you room in a student hostel washing her clothes in the bathroom.— clothes in the bathroom. you are makin: a clothes in the bathroom. you are making a link— clothes in the bathroom. you are making a link to _ clothes in the bathroom. you are making a link to me, we - clothes in the bathroom. you are making a link to me, we are - clothes in the bathroom. you are - making a link to me, we are focusing on someone driven out by fire but there is anyone else whose lives are inserted by the risk of fire and

fear of fire. so if we take the fire and we can take the fear of it, how many people do you think we now know are living with this threat?— are living with this threat? overall across britain _ are living with this threat? overall across britain in _ are living with this threat? overall across britain in flats _ are living with this threat? overall across britain in flats that - are living with this threat? overall across britain in flats that are - across britain in flats that are known or estimated to have fire risks by the government, it could be “p risks by the government, it could be up to 560,000 people still living in flats that have not been fixed since the grenfell fire. so up to 700,000 people were trapped in flats with fire risk and up to nearly 3 million with flats they could not sell. i looked at how many people have actually been forced to move out of their homes, earlier this year, for their homes, earlier this year, for the sunday times, and we found over 15,000 people have had to move out. because the fire service have said these aren't safe?— because the fire service have said these aren't safe? exactly, or there was a fire and _ these aren't safe? exactly, or there was a fire and they _ these aren't safe? exactly, or there was a fire and they had _ these aren't safe? exactly, or there was a fire and they had to _ these aren't safe? exactly, or there was a fire and they had to move - these aren't safe? exactly, or there | was a fire and they had to move out. so we're looking at a fire days ahead of the grenfell report. the report was on wednesday, the fire

was last monday. can viewers in seven years the same patchwork of missed opportunity and bad responsibility, lines of responsibility, lines of responsibility, exists now as existed the day before grenfell? most buildings that are stuck in the scandal, it is like a mini grenfell. the police and well the grenfell inquiry have said there is a web of blame and it is a merry—go—round of buckpassing. that is what goes on that other buildings do. it is buckpassing between the freeholder, layers of landlords that own the building, the developer, the sub contractors who built it, the government who can pay for it in some cases. and people argue about who should pay and how much work should be done and stuck in the middle of the people living in those buildings and i still can't move,

they still can't sell. they are still at risk.— they still can't sell. they are still at risk. . , still at risk. some advised sa'id javid still at risk. some advised sa'id javid when he i still at risk. some advised sa'id javid when he was i still at risk. some advised sa'id javid when he was secretary h still at risk. some advised sajid - javid when he was secretary of state javid when he was secretary of state for housing at the time of grenfell and frances argued the high—rise checks at the tuc back in 2017. salma, can you take us back to the room. there is this patchwork of buckpassing. do you rememberfeeling overwhelmed by a patchwork of buckpassing when you were at the heart of government? t heart of government? i wouldn't characterise _ heart of government? i wouldn't characterise it _ heart of government? i wouldn't characterise it as _ heart of government? i wouldn't characterise it as that _ heart of government? i wouldn't characterise it as that in - heart of government? i wouldn't characterise it as that in the - characterise it as that in the immediate aftermath of the tragedy. but what _ immediate aftermath of the tragedy. but what was really apparent is that there were — but what was really apparent is that there were questions coming in that nohody— there were questions coming in that nobody knew how to answer. including ou? yes, nobody knew how to answer. including you? yes, because _ nobody knew how to answer. including you? yes, because they _ nobody knew how to answer. including you? yes, because they were - nobody knew how to answer. including you? yes, because they were expert i you? yes, because they were expert cuestions. you? yes, because they were expert questions. what _ you? yes, because they were expert questions. what was _ you? yes, because they were expert questions. what was the _ you? yes, because they were expert questions. what was the cladding? i questions. what was the cladding? who was— questions. what was the cladding? who was responsible? there was immediate necessity about housing people. _ immediate necessity about housing people, as you have just seen. then there _ people, as you have just seen. then there were — people, as you have just seen. then there were the wider questions about what other— there were the wider questions about what other buildings are not safe.

and how— what other buildings are not safe. and how are we monitoring the situation — and how are we monitoring the situation and how did we know where those _ situation and how did we know where those buildings were throughout the entire _ those buildings were throughout the entire country. and so what we found were there _ entire country. and so what we found were there were questions coming in and the _ were there were questions coming in and the more questions that came in the more _ and the more questions that came in the more we — and the more questions that came in the more we realise that actually we couldn't _ the more we realise that actually we couldn't answer it. a big reason why we have _ couldn't answer it. a big reason why we have the — couldn't answer it. a big reason why we have the inquiry. you couldn't answer it. a big reason why we have the inquiry.— we have the inquiry. you were workin: we have the inquiry. you were working for— we have the inquiry. you were working for the _ we have the inquiry. you were working for the secretary - we have the inquiry. you were working for the secretary of i working for the secretary of state for housing and you couldn't answer the questions are coming in? title. the questions are coming in? no, absolutely _ the questions are coming in? no, absolutely not. _ the questions are coming in? no, absolutely not. frances, - the questions are coming in? no, absolutely not. frances, is - the questions are coming in? no, absolutely not. frances, is this i the questions are coming in? no, absolutely not. frances, is this a| absolutely not. frances, is this a failure of tory — absolutely not. frances, is this a failure of tory government - absolutely not. frances, is this a failure of tory government or . absolutely not. frances, is this a failure of tory government or a i failure of tory government or a failure of tory government or a failure of tory government or a failure of government?- failure of tory government or a failure of government? i think it is both but i don't _ failure of government? i think it is both but i don't think _ failure of government? i think it is both but i don't think the - failure of government? i think it is both but i don't think the tories i both but i don't think the tories can escape the fact that there was a push for deregulation from 2011 onwards. david cameron, bonfire of regulations, rules that keep us safe. there was too cosy a relationship with the construction industry, regulate your selves, relationship with the construction industry, regulate yourselves, mark your own homework. that was never a good idea. and there was austerity. i mean, let's not forget that since

2013i think we have seen 25% cuts in fire brigades. we have seen health and safety inspectors cut by a third since 2010. ~ . and safety inspectors cut by a third since 2010-— since 2010. what i would really counsel against is _ since 2010. what i would really counsel against is creating - since 2010. what i would really counsel against is creating a i counsel against is creating a political _ counsel against is creating a political narrative around this issue — political narrative around this issue. because if you look at the inquiry— issue. because if you look at the inquiry and — issue. because if you look at the inquiry and the web that you have 'ust inquiry and the web that you have just talked — inquiry and the web that you have just talked about of blame, there is failure _ just talked about of blame, there is failure across everything. and there is a failure — failure across everything. and there is a failure across a period of time that even— is a failure across a period of time that even proceeds 2010 on the 2010 election _ that even proceeds 2010 on the 2010 election. so if you're talking about fire safety— election. so if you're talking about fire safety guidance, we are talking about _ fire safety guidance, we are talking about 2009 that had not been updated. and i think the issue here is on the _ updated. and i think the issue here is on the things that i fear more than _ is on the things that i fear more than anything, is that even after seven. _ than anything, is that even after seven, nearly eight years of this inquiry. — seven, nearly eight years of this inquiry. we _ seven, nearly eight years of this inquiry, we get to this damning report. — inquiry, we get to this damning report, and it is damning and these failures. _ report, and it is damning and these failures, and we have platitudes afterwards and we go back to

business _ afterwards and we go back to business as usual. it cannot be business — business as usual. it cannot be business as usual. it cannot be business as usual. it cannot be business as usual after this report. but i _ business as usual after this report. but i think— business as usual after this report. but i think what francis is saying is that the tories got in and changed regulation as usual to deregulation as usual so that as a finger of suspicion that is pointing. finger of suspicion that is pointing-— finger of suspicion that is pointing. finger of suspicion that is ”ointin. . : ~ . finger of suspicion that is ”ointin. . : ,, ., , pointing. yes. and i think what is really important _ pointing. yes. and i think what is really important about _ pointing. yes. and i think what is really important about this - pointing. yes. and i think what is really important about this is - pointing. yes. and i think what is i really important about this is going back and _ really important about this is going back and having a frantic look at how that — back and having a frantic look at how that was actually done within the department. but how that was actually done within the department.— how that was actually done within the department. but am i not right that the chair of _ the department. but am i not right that the chair of the _ the department. but am i not right that the chair of the inquiry has - that the chair of the inquiry has said it is time to go back to a centralised state regulator. is that not one of the findings of the inquiry? not one of the findings of the iniui ? . : , :, not one of the findings of the iniui ? . . , :, , inquiry? exactly. one of the things that came out _ inquiry? exactly. one of the things that came out very _ inquiry? exactly. one of the things that came out very strongly - inquiry? exactly. one of the things that came out very strongly in - inquiry? exactly. one of the things that came out very strongly in the | that came out very strongly in the report was the problem with privatised regulators and test houses who are paid by developers to test and certify their products. and the inquiry said that they were conflicted between making money and keeping people safe. this

conflicted between making money and keeping people safe.— keeping people safe. this is what frances o'grady _ keeping people safe. this is what frances o'grady calls _ keeping people safe. this is what frances o'grady calls marking - keeping people safe. this is what i frances o'grady calls marking their frances 0'grady calls marking their own homework. i will go back to me i should on the video. 0ne own homework. i will go back to me i should on the video. one of the things i wonder if we should go on talking about is although there was criticism of the fire service, the fires in that building, the fire engines were arriving, members of the fire service were going into those flames, going into assist so should we end this discussion by paying tribute to the individual services, who are trying against this patchwork to save lives. t spoke to firefighters in the aftermath of grenfell and the personal bravery but also trauma of those firefighters and what they had seen and experienced from the building they ran into, when we are as ordinary people would hope to run away from it, is extraordinary.

there is criticism for their boss class but even this one from ten days ago, when you see them arriving with those flames are seven stories high. with those flames are seven stories hieh. . ~ , :, high. yeah, i think you can't underestimate _ high. yeah, i think you can't underestimate the - high. yeah, i think you can't underestimate the level- high. yeah, i think you can't underestimate the level of i underestimate the level of dedication and passion it takes to be able _ dedication and passion it takes to be able to— dedication and passion it takes to be able to go into situations like that _ be able to go into situations like that and — be able to go into situations like that and i— be able to go into situations like that. and i will echo what francis said. _ that. and i will echo what francis said. that — that. and i will echo what francis said, that there were not people who put themselvesjust at said, that there were not people who put themselves just at physical risk but mental risk as well because it stays— but mental risk as well because it stays with — but mental risk as well because it stays with you was yellow can i say one of— stays with you was yellow can i say one of the — stays with you was yellow can i say one of the most important things in keir starmer's statement on grenfell is we need _ keir starmer's statement on grenfell is we need to start listening to the voices— is we need to start listening to the voices of— is we need to start listening to the voices of working class people, including — voices of working class people, including people of colour. and i thought— including people of colour. and i thought that was spot on and needed to be said _ thought that was spot on and needed to be said. gk. thought that was spot on and needed to be said. ~ . to be said. ok. i think what we have done is in a — to be said. ok. i think what we have done is in a brief _ to be said. ok. i think what we have done is in a brief discussion about i done is in a brief discussion about something that is so affecting half a million people right now, many of who could be watching, is try to pay tribute to brave uniform services as well as our criticism of public

policy. thank you for your expertise, it has been very nice to meet you. the world's worst national football team has notched up its first competitive win. san marino beat liechenstein1—0 with a team of players working normaljobs off the pitch. it's a tiny country but the fortunes of the lowest ranked team are followed by fans of the underdog, of the passion of playing with no expectation of winning. i heard from midfielder marcello mularoni and started by asking him about the atmosphere in the locker room following the unprecedent result. yeah, it was a wonderful atmosphere because it's the first win since 2004, so everybody wants to enjoy that moment. everybody want to make a hug to the other team—mates and have a little party in the changing room, where we can celebrate together.

and so for the first time for a long time we can enjoy our victory forsure, ourwin. and so that's a wonderful atmosphere here and also in the video you can see it. i can see it. and nicko, who scored the goal, wasn't even alive when you last won a game. and all the players i see in the video, most of you have a second job in san marino. football is played alongside your career. yeah, for sure. for example, for me i'm a business consultant and i work during the day and so i go to work after my normal work, i go to training with my club during the evening. so for us it is difficult to compete against professional players but for sure when we can achieve that kind of result it is multiples of sensation and emotion.

everybody knows that the national team is a little bit not so competitive with other national teams. but every time we compete here, we can find a great atmosphere, also around the stadium. yeah. it also means there's a sense of humour involved, there is a banter as we call it in sport in uk. sometimes you lose with very big scores against you and does this hurt, knowing that some fans around the world say, oh, san marino lost 10—0? yeah, for sure. it's not easy for us with these kind of results but we understand the different level against some of the players and for sure the nations league is a way to improve our movement and also

to make some results and to keep ourselves more confident and also to play against the most team—mates. yes, because we on this programme, newsnight, we are not taking that attitude of those sneering people because we are thinking of the joy you must have in going all over the world meeting some of your own footballing heroes and playing against them. i mean, have you been representing your country playing against names you can tell me now who you respect as footballing heroes? yeah, for example jude bellingham. i played againstjude bellingham, so it's kind of emotions to play against him. and for sure in san marino we had andy selva, that is our hero because he is the most goal—scorer for san marino team.

your next match is against moldova.