welcome to hardtalk, from lake como in northern italy. i'm stephen sackur. this is the venue for the ambrosetti forum, a gathering of international politicians, where this year, the conversation keeps returning to one simple question — who will win the us presidential election in november, and what will it mean for global geopolitics? well, my guest today has strong opinions on that matter. he is republican us senator lindsey graham, one of donald trump's closest allies on capitol hill. he is all in for team trump. but are america's voters growing weary of the former president?

senator lindsey graham, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. senator, why has the replacement ofjoe biden with kamala harris, on the democratic side of this presidential race, why has it knocked the trump campaign so badly off balance? i think it was a... it's taken a while for them to get their sea legs, but i think they're good to go now. i thought he would be replaced. you know, we were all saying, as republicans, "the guy is not capable. he's in decline." and all of a sudden he leaves. you know, it'sjust switching up candidates that late, it took a while to absorb that, but i think he'd be ready... this coming tuesday is the debate, and i think it'll be probably the most consequential debate maybe in a long time, if not ever. you talk about the way in which, for so long, the trump campaign was built around the idea thatjoe biden was too old, he wasn't competent.

yeah. right, right, right. there's a big problem now for trump, isn't there? he's the old guy. he's 78 years old. and people looking at him right now, and the way he is responding to questions on the campaign trail, they are now asking questions about his cognitive abilities. yeah. i think you see in polling that people see he's fit for thejob. what he's going to have to do now, in my view, you know, we're running against someone who is just not really capable in the eyes of, like, 70% of the people. right now, you see, you have no doubt that she's capable, you know, in terms of intellectual ability, i don't think that's going to be a problem for trump. well, hang on. so, i mean, donald trump repeatedly has called her dumb, not an intelligent person. yeah. are you saying he needs to drop that? well, you know, ithink you can't be a senator, vice president, attorney general if you don't have something going for you. on policy, i think her policies are bad. so they want this insult contest. you know, the whole democratic convention was not about what they've done for the country, but, you know, an attack on trump and just fluff about policy.

my advice is, don't take the bait. start talking about what happened when you were president versus what they're doing. just one more question on... questions now about trump's capabilities, his capacities. back in the summer, before biden withdrew from the race, you argued that both biden and trump should take cognitive tests. do you still believe that donald trump should take a cognitive test? sure. i'm fine with donald trump. if he wants to, he can. i always thought biden was diminished. i never have thought that about trump. and you see it in the polling. nobody believes that trump's not capable. the question is, is he the right pick? and that's what it's going to be about. and they're trying to make it about trump. and what trump ought to be, in my view, be making it about policy. there's a big problem for the republicans in that you are a party divided right now, aren't you? i mean, there are some extraordinarily senior, influential republicans who simply will not vote for donald trump.

they think he is too dangerous to the republic, the latest of which is former vice president dick cheney. yeah. when he says that, it matters. i'm not so sure. i think that's sort of built into the cake. you know... dick cheney? yeah, i like dick cheney. one of the most staunch conservatives in the united states of america who says he cannot, will not vote for trump because he is a danger. i can't think of any other republican that i know of who will change their vote. you got the brother of walz saying he's100% against tim walz. i don't think that matters a whole lot. dick cheney... you got high profile... like, robert f kenneder is now supporting trump. i didn't see that coming. and that may matter some. so time will tell. yeah, i mean, on the republican side... it's a strange election where you have the kennedys supporting trump, and the cheneys supporting harris. it's a bit of a weird time at home. but you are a house divided,

and some of the people who know trump best... we're always a house divided. yeah, but some of the people who know trump best, and i'm thinking now of mike pence, again, saying, "i cannot in good "conscience endorse him. anyone who puts himself "above the constitution of our country should never be president." are you telling me that american voters will pay no heed to that? yeah. i don't think it's going to matter a whole lot. robert f kenneder might help with that segment of the libertarian section of the country, i don't know. i like mike pence. i like all these people. but it didn't stop him in the primary, i think. i don't know who pence is going to vote for, but i can tell you this — it's a toss—up election. i really don't know who's going to win, but i wouldn't trade places with the other side. yeah. let's just look at the pitch the trump team is now making to win this election. it seems you're going to double down on the idea that kamala harris is, to quote

donald trump, a communist. do you think american voters are going to buy that? yeah, i think she's one of the most... rather than saying maybe communist, the most liberal person to ever seek office by a major party, i believe that completely. she's for reparations. the green new deal would destroy the fossil fuel economy. medicare for all destroys private health care for millions of americans. yeah, i think she's taken the most radical positions that could be taken by a member of the united states senate. and, yeah, i think she's definitely the most liberal person to ever be nominated by a major party. absolutely. senator, i'm sure you'd agree, truth—telling matters when it comes to looking at your opponent's campaign, right, and their offer to the american public? you in the republican party are not telling the truth about kamala harris on a whole range of subjects. like what? like, for example, you are accusing her of wanting to ban all fracking across the united states. yeah. she has made it absolutely plain that she now, whatever she said five, six years ago, she now will not — will not — impose

a ban on fracking. so why say something that's not true? why did she change? politicians change on all sorts of things. yeah, but why? for political reasons, right? because it's not popular. it was popular at the time. shejumped on the green new deal, which eliminates fossil fuels very quickly. it's like a $90 trillion change in our economy. why did she get on the bill? who is she trying to please? why is she getting off the bill? because it's a dumb, stupid idea. no, i don't believe for a minute she's changed. she says, "my values haven't changed." what are her values? to declare war on fossil fuels. no, i don't believe her. i believe she'll push a very radical environmental agenda. her values haven't changed. that's what she said. the democrats in power, biden—harris, they've created almost 16 million newjobs. if you look over the span of the last few decades, as bill clinton pointed out at the democratic convention, democratic administrations have created jobs, republican

administrations have not. that's the truth. well, here's the truth. 65% of americans believe we're going on the wrong track. when trump left office... if you would just address my point, senator. yeah. no, that's not true. bill clinton didn't. that's not true. we've created a lot ofjobs. with the greatest of respect, the figures are quite clear. they've been independently analysed. why do people believe the country's so off track? why do people, consistently over 60%, believe the nation is going in the wrong direction, in terms of the economy and security? because the policies are not working. with respect, senator, it may be because people like donald trump, and with the greatest respect, yourself, twist the facts, do not tell the truth about what has and has not happened under the watch of biden and harris. or it may be what the democrats are saying doesn't resonate with the average person because they're not living what they're saying. when trump left office, gasoline was $1.87 a gallon. it's gone up dramatically.

mortgage rates below 3%. we had the lowest illegal crossings at the border in a0 years. inflation is eating people's pay cheque alive. we've had ten million illegal immigrants come into the country raping and murdering people. people do not believe the policies are working. they're living the consequences of disastrous policy choices. inflation is down, as you well know. it's been over 5%. you accuse kamala harris of being soft on crime. in california, she was criticised for being too tough on crime. and the fact is, and again, facts matter, violent crime and murders across the united states have gone down during the biden—harris years. i don't buy that one bit. but, again, it's difficult to conduct a conversation if you won't accept facts which come from official us government agencies. i don't accept the fact that america... along the border is chaos. you're telling me that these border communities are safe?

go to one of them. go tell the people whose families have been raped and murdered by illegal immigrants, "things are fine." america is not buying what you're saying because it's not true. i guess, on the migration issue, which clearly you and the republicans are going to run hard with over the next two months, there is one problem for your party, and that is that it was your side of the congress which blocked a bipartisan effort to pass the toughest crackdown on border security. i was in the gang of eight. i've been involved in three major efforts to reform immigration comprehensively. the reason i voted against the bill, it didn't have any changes to parole. they're paroling into the country 30,000 people a month from four countries, i believe illegally. parole can be used for an individual situation, not large groups. so that's why i didn't vote for the bill. let me quote to you, the republican senator, your colleaguejames lankford of oklahoma, who worked very hard to draw up this... yeah, he's a good guy. good guy.

good guy, you say. great guy. he was so involved in this bipartisan effort to get tough on border security, he said — this is, the bill that was brought up, a crucial moment after three decades of inaction to decide whether we are going to do something or nothing to fix the border. the truth... and again, it's about facts. the truth is, your party opted to do nothing. no, that's not true. that's what the democrats say and that's what you're saying. i was actually there. i voted on the bill. the truth is, i tried to put a limit on the number of people who could be paroled into the country when, um, during biden... ..excuse me, obama and trump, about 5,800 people a year were paroled in. during the biden years, it's been almost a million people. it's being abused. that's one of the magnets that attract people illegally. we could never get my democratic colleagues to put a cap on parole. therefore i voted no. senator, the polls are tight, particularly in the crucial swing states. but where they are not tight

is when it comes to america's women, where right now kamala harris has double—digit leads. i6%, i think. yeah. do you accept that the republican party and donald trump have a serious women problem? there's definitely a gender gap that's been there for quite a while. i think he's up 9 with men, down 16 maybe. it always hovers around this, up to 20 at times. and why do you think that is? uh... bottom line, i hope we can convince american women that if you want prosperity and safety, you've got to change policy. if you think we're on the wrong course as a nation, you've got to pick new people to do different and new things, and remind them of the trump years, where we had lower inflation and more secure. the world was not on fire. we didn't have any wars. i think that's the way to go. but at the end of the day, all the states that really matter is margin of error. georgia is coming our way, i think. governor kemp is helping trump

now, and that will be helpful. but i want to stick with the women issue. what we have seen is, for example, jd vance talking about what he calls childless cat ladies, miserable in their own lives, and they, he says, want to make the rest of the country miserable, too. we've seen donald trump reposting on social media disparaging comments and jokes about kamala harris and her sexual past. do you think it's time that the two of them stop disparaging women? well, i think our party... i think president trump is doing well as a candidate tied with a very... ..in a contest of a divided nation. but my question was, is it time for trump and vance to stop disparaging women? is it time...? is it time for them to stop disparaging trump and vance and belittling president trump as somebody he's not? it's probably time for

us all to act better. but this election is not going to be decided based on words. it's going to be decided based on policy and action. if i may, and we talk about policy, perhaps the key policy when it comes to settling many women's votes is abortion. you are an advocate of a nationwide ban on abortion. donald trump says he wants to leave it where it is right now with the states. right. it looks like the republican party is confused. ok, so basically the polling is pretty clear. at 15 weeks, about 65% to 70% of people would limit abortion. that's my position. president trump let the states decide. i support the exceptions. it's not going to determine the outcome of the race, in my view. really? yes. given what we've just said about where women are today in terms of the polls... yeah. ..you're 16 points behind. clearly, women do not like the republican stance on abortion. it's just not because of abortion. i don't... i haven't looked at the cross tabs.

i'm here to tell you that we're not going to lose the election because we want the states to do it. they would allow abortion up to demand at 2a weeks and beyond. that's the chinese position. that's the north korean position. that's not... less than 20% of americans want to have abortion in the eighth and ninth month. yeah. let's talk about one other important sector of the voting public. that is minorities in america. i'm thinking about black voters, latino voters. when biden was still in the race, there was some clear evidence that trump was making some inroads into both those votes. right. those inroads seem to have been lost since kamala harris. she has consolidated the base a bit. trump is still doing better than most every republican i know of with hispanics and african—american men in particular. but she has stopped the bleeding. you talk to trump quite often, don't you? yeah. a couple of days ago. yeah. what did you say to him when he started to, it seems, question kamala harris�*s own racial identity?

when he said, you know, "she makes a turn. "she wants to be known as a black person. "is she indian? is she black? "i don't know." did you tell him to back off his questioning of her own identity? i said her philosophy, her ideology, her governing principles are, i think, the best way to differentiate yourself. that's what i said then. that's what i believe now. a contest of comparing what policies are best for lowering inflation, who is best able to keep the world from being on fire, made us energy independent, is the winning way forward. americans are hurting financially. right. so that's what i would do. i get your point. so when you hear senior colleagues of yours in your party describing kamala harris as the — quote unquote — dei candidate, as though she's some sort of token, that she's only there because of the colour of her skin, what do you say

to those colleagues of yours? i don't think that's appropriate. i don't think it works. but it's happening, senator. yeah. well, yeah, one guy from tennessee. do you want me to give you every stupid thing some liberals said? what you've got to understand, this election is shaping up to be very close. slight advantage for trump, because the conditions in america are such for change. the question for trump — can he be considered an acceptable alternative to an administration people don't like? that's the challenge. if he reminds people of what he did when he was president, then i think he has a very good chance of winning. we're speaking to each other in europe, and international affairs matter to the american public, but they certainly matter to the global public watching the us presidential race. if you have one signature concern on the global scene, it is getting america to offer more support to ukraine in theirwaragainst

vladimir putin and russia. what do you say to european politicians who are deeply worried, some of them, at least, that if donald trump wins the white house, support for ukraine from america will be cut? well, i don't think it will be cut, but i will say the first thing to my nato allies, you better get to 2%. it's not fair. you mean, defence expenditure as a proportion of gdp? yeah, yeah. he believes, and so do i, and sam nunn, years ago wanted to put pressure on nato nations to be 3%. your nation's at 2%. we're just going to focus on that. i think what he'll do with ukraine is they're sitting on about $6 or $7 trillion of critical minerals. some of the aid in the future will be alone. but the goal is to end the war without creating another war. so i want to end the war as soon as possible. i want to make sure that putin did not win this thing, that ukraine is still standing and a sovereign country, that china sees putin as having made a mistake.

that comes from a negotiating table. yeah, but hang on. donald trump says that he believes he can sort this out and get a settlement within 2a hours of winning the election. the only way that could happen, and this is obvious, the only way it could happen, is by accepting that russia continues to hold a swathe continues to hold a swathe of ukrainian territory, of ukrainian territory, almost 20% of ukraine's land. almost 20% of ukraine's land. i think president trump i think president trump will not end this war in a way will not end this war in a way to create another war. to create another war. minsk did not work. minsk did not work. versailles did not work. versailles did not work. the budapest memorandum the budapest memorandum did not work. did not work. i have told him continuously, i have told him continuously, how you end a war determines how you end a war determines whether or not trump will tell putin, whether or not you create new wars. you create new wars. to the biden administration, to the biden administration, let the ukrainians use let the ukrainians use long—range weapons to hit long—range weapons to hit legitimate military targets legitimate military targets to get more leverage over to get more leverage over the russians, so we can end it the russians, so we can end it sooner rather than later. sooner rather than later. the restrictions on weapons, the restrictions on weapons, the delay in weapons, the delay in weapons, using the f—i6, getting tanks using the f—i6, getting tanks in, it's made the war in, it's made the war go on longer. go on longer.

i really do believe that i really do believe that trump will tell putin, "i'm going to be all in for ukraine "if you don't "accept a reasonable deal." but why do you believe that when we know that donald trump used his leverage with republicans on capitol hill to delay the 60 billion aid package for ukraine, and jd vance has said on the record, quote, "i do not care about ukraine." yeah, well, he's not president. and i likejd. i care about ukraine. but let me tell you, the package passed because we turned some of it into a loan. we had a lend—lease programme with great britain during world war ii. the bottom line is, america is hurting financially. there's no reason not to make this a loan. the eu has made part of their aid package to the ukrainians a loan, favourable terms. and that got trump to yes. how this war ends is very important. you've got to create enough military pressure on putin to get him to the table. they need f—i6s, retired nato pilots should be in these cockpits.

there are a bunch of nato pilots retired that would fly for ukraine. to speed up using the planes, we need another supplemental in congress after the election. more weapons coming. we need sanctions on banking and microchips to make it harder for russia to stay in the fight. so i am all in for helping ukraine, and the big fear i have is iran. i really do believe we're letting iran get too powerful. just a final thought on what will happen

it was an election worthy of certification. that's exactly what i'll do next time. here's what. .. and the fact that donald trump continues to say that the 2020 election was stolen, that he was the victim, that he was the victim of a rigged election. he calls those who stormed the capitol onjanuary 6th patriots and heroes. he says he will pardon them. doesn't that give you pause that after this coming election, if he's defeated, he's not going to accept it? i'm focused on getting this right this time and we'll see how the votes shake out. as to january 6th, people who participated in the riots and attacked cops, they deserved to go to jail. some people are being held without lawyers. that's not right. i think the american people are going to, more likely than not, elect donald trump simply because they believe his policies are superior to biden and harris.

and while he was president, the world was not on fire. russia didn't invade ukraine. we had iran in a box. all that changed due to policy choices by biden and harris that unleashed iran after we withdrew from afghanistan. it was the worst signal you could send. a final thought about donald trump. if he loses, is that the end of donald trump and the end of his grip on your party? well, if he loses, i don't see him ever running again. i think the maga movement will still exist, but we'll have to re—evaluate the party, trying to take the best of trump, the best of all of the figures in the republican party and put it back together again. you know, the labour party had that same problem. the tories now have it. you know, politics runs in cycles. if he wins, i think you're going to have a bigger republican party, working—class people more attracted to the republican party under donald trump.

we're actually growing with minorities. so time will tell. stay tuned. lindsey graham, thanks forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you. low pressure and early warmth in september have brought flooding rains to some this weekend. a month's worth of rain fell in parts of the west midlands on the slow—moving weather front on sunday, which is only slowly easing its way eastwards through the remainder of the night, so the heaviest rain does ease. the thunderstorms ease away as well but there'll be misty low cloud and hill fog with this weather system in the east. further west, the skies start to clear and it will be

chillier for scotland and northern ireland in particular and, in fact, in these areas, it was chillier on sunday as well. still warm and muggy in the south and still with a lot of murky weather. first thing on monday, quite grey, quite damp on that weather front initially but compared with sunday for wales, for north west england, for the southwest of england, it's a much drier picture for eastern scotland as well. but the rain does roll back in to the west of scotland, northern ireland later and this cloud, murky low cloud could just hang on in east anglia and the southeast for much of the day. where we see the sunshine 17 or 18, but that's considerably down. and as we saw on sunday, temperatures are lower anyway in the north now and then, that rain rushes eastwards as we go through monday night. on a developing area of low pressure actually got a sting in its tail, i think, by the time we get to tuesday. a fresher night in the south, despite quite a bit of cloud and quite a bit of breeze as well. we'lljust notice it won't feel as close. but this weather system will slowly meander its way southwards. and then behind it, we open the doors to this northwesterly air flow.

hence, it will feel chilly midweek. and the northwesterly wind is a chilly direction at any time of year, so we will notice that particularly tuesday and wednesday when the winds are strongest. lots of showers around, strong winds as well — notjust by day, but by night. by the end of the night — the end of the week, rather — we could have a touch of grass frost in the north, but that's the end of the week. however, from midweek onwards, the showers coming in thick and fast as scotland could be a little bit wintry over the top of the munros, this rainjust dragging its heels in the south, but a windier day for all of us. gales possibly in the north and the east. and it's here where the rain hangs around and it could give some significant rainfall across the likes of orkney and shetland as well through tuesday and into wednesday. so, although we'll see 12—18, i think those temperatures, tempered by the strength of the wind — particularly so on wednesday — does look as if southern areas may see a ridge of high pressure building towards the end of the week, but we will firm up on the details as the time goes on. more online.

live from london, live from london, this is bbc news. this is bbc news. the impact of the covid the impact of the covid pandemic on healthcare workers pandemic on healthcare workers government's anti—democratic and patients in the uk is set and patients in the uk is set to be examined as the public to be examined as the public inquiry enters its next phase. inquiry enters its next phase. the us secretary of state the us secretary of state says the political exile says the political exile

of venezuela's opposition of venezuela's opposition leader edmundo gonzalez leader edmundo gonzalez is a direct result of its is a direct result of its government's anti—democratic measures. pope francis travels to timor—leste today for the first papal visit to the predominantly catholic country since its independence. and in tennis, the world number one jannik sinner beats the american taylor fritz in straight sets to win his first us open.