in a scathing report published in the last few seconds, the surgeon tasked by the pm to assess the state of the nhs says it's in a critical condition. can sir keir starmerfix it? and as the government this week pledges to "double down" on knife crime, the fathers of these two teenagers, both fatally stabbed, say the law must go much further. hello and welcome to newsnight, live each weeknight with interviews and insight. with us this evening, lord bethell who was a health minister

under the last conservative government. marvin rees, who was labour mayor of bristol for eight years and gp and director of research at health think tank the nuffield trust, — dr becks fisher — and nick, too. we are going to talk about this 160 page report. it's just been published by consultant surgeon and former labour health minister now independent peer lord darzi who was asked by the prime minister to investigate the state of the nhs in england and the state of the nation's health — much of it we all know already cos we all use the nhs: waiting time targets are being missed, we struggle to see a gp, a & e is in an awful state says lord darzi. but some of what he says isn't quite so obvious. nick, tell us more about what he says? here it is, a pretty hefty tome. this is a very stark assessment. he talks about how the nhs is in a

critical condition but he does say the vital signs remain strong. there are all the examples you talked about and then lord darzi talks about and then lord darzi talks about how there are four heavy interrelated factors that have contributed to what he describes as the dire state of the nhs. firstly, austerity and funding and capital starvation. secondly, the impact of covid and the aftermath. thirdly, a lack of patient boys and staff engagement and finally, management structures. two of those factors he lays out the door of the last government, austerity and those management changes, well, he's thinking about andrew lansley, the first health secretary in the coalition, his massive reforms which lord darzi describes as a calamity without precedent. and on covid, he has this fascinating, extraordinary fact that the nhs delayed, cancelled or postponed more routine care than any comparable health system but he does say that the state of the nhs is notjust about

does say that the state of the nhs is not just about what happens does say that the state of the nhs is notjust about what happens in the nhs he talks about how health in our country is deteriorating, talks about the impact of poor housing and low income. figs about the impact of poor housing and low income. fissi about the impact of poor housing and low income. �* , about the impact of poor housing and low income-— low income. as i said, quite a bit of this we — low income. as i said, quite a bit of this we know _ low income. as i said, quite a bit of this we know already. - low income. as i said, quite a bit of this we know already. but - low income. as i said, quite a bit| of this we know already. but what low income. as i said, quite a bit. of this we know already. but what is this report for, where is it leading to? keir starmer is doing a big speech tomorrow? this to? keir starmer is doing a big speech tomorrow?— to? keir starmer is doing a big speech tomorrow? this report is desiuned speech tomorrow? this report is designed to _ speech tomorrow? this report is designed to lay _ speech tomorrow? this report is designed to lay the _ speech tomorrow? this report is designed to lay the ground - speech tomorrow? this report is designed to lay the ground for. speech tomorrow? this report is i designed to lay the ground for keir starmer�*s ten year plan for the nhs. in that speech tomorrow, the prime minister is going to say this, it is reform or die and then the prime minister will pledge what he is going to describe as the biggest reimagining of our nhs since its birth. he will say this will involve three big shifts. firstly, move from what he described as analog to digital nhs. secondly, move more care from hospitals to communities and thirdly, talking about the need to be more bold about moving from sickness to prevention. that to reform or die message means the

emphasis will be on reforms, not increasing taxes. 0ne emphasis will be on reforms, not increasing taxes. one final thing, an independent report commissioned by the government, i don't see any mention of the fact lord darzi was a labour health minister in gordon brown's government. he labour health minister in gordon brown's government.— labour health minister in gordon brown's government. he was indeed. lord bethell, — brown's government. he was indeed. lord bethell, health _ brown's government. he was indeed. lord bethell, health minister - brown's government. he was indeed. lord bethell, health minister under i lord bethell, health minister under the last conservative government. welcome. your government left the nhs in a critical condition according to lord darzi, do you accept that?— accept that? the report is incredibly _ accept that? the report is incredibly powerful- accept that? the report is incredibly powerful and i accept that? the report is - incredibly powerful and spells out incredibly powerful and spells out in clear_ incredibly powerful and spells out in clear terms and i wouldn't argue with a _ in clear terms and i wouldn't argue with a word — in clear terms and i wouldn't argue with a word of the evidence he has put forward. he also very thoughtfully puts together some of the reasons for that and that does include _ the reasons for that and that does include the massive demographic changes— include the massive demographic changes we have got, the underlying poor health of the nation, as nick referred _ poor health of the nation, as nick referred to, — poor health of the nation, as nick referred to, and some of the workforce _ referred to, and some of the workforce problem is we, like every other— workforce problem is we, like every other country in the world, are suffering — other country in the world, are suffering from.— other country in the world, are suffering from. you didn't mention austeri , suffering from. you didn't mention austerity. i— suffering from. you didn't mention austerity, iwill_ suffering from. you didn't mention austerity, i will come _ suffering from. you didn't mention austerity, i will come back- suffering from. you didn't mention austerity, i will come back to - suffering from. you didn't mention austerity, i will come back to that, which was a coalition policy because he says although he has worked in

the nhs for 30 years, he is shocked by some of the things he has found. 0ne by some of the things he has found. one example, let me give to you, the uk has appreciably higher cancer mortality rates than other countries. no progress whatsoever was made in diagnosing cancer at stage one and stage two, which everyone knows are the early stages, in other words more likely to survive, between 2013—21. he in other words more likely to survive, between 2013-21. he is riuht. survive, between 2013-21. he is right- that— survive, between 2013-21. he is right- that is — survive, between 2013-21. he is right. that is unbelievable. - right. that is unbelievable. catchina right. that is unbelievable. catching disease _ right. that is unbelievable. catching disease early - right. that is unbelievable. catching disease early and | right. that is unbelievable. - catching disease early and treating earlier— catching disease early and treating earlier something the nhs is particularly bad at. we have the attitude — particularly bad at. we have the attitude that we wait for people to stagger— attitude that we wait for people to stagger into a&e, being blood and with lamps and then we intervene when _ with lamps and then we intervene when it's— with lamps and then we intervene when it's clear what the condition is. when it's clear what the condition is that _ when it's clear what the condition is that is — when it's clear what the condition is. that is not appropriate in the zist is. that is not appropriate in the 215t century and it speaks of a very old—fashioned model that we need to fix. old—fashioned model that we need to fix what— old—fashioned model that we need to fix. what keir starmer is due to announce — fix. what keir starmer is due to announce tomorrow is the kind of ambition— announce tomorrow is the kind of ambition that is needed to fix that. i do ambition that is needed to fix that. i do hope _ ambition that is needed to fix that. i do hope that he has his eyes firmly— i do hope that he has his eyes firmly fixed on the big ambition for that _ firmly fixed on the big ambition for that do _ firmly fixed on the big ambition for that. , .,

firmly fixed on the big ambition for that. ,, , firmly fixed on the big ambition for that. i. , .,, that. do you wish the last conservative _ that. do you wish the last conservative government | that. do you wish the last - conservative government over the last 1a years had that kind of ambition? in last14 years had that kind of ambition?— last 14 years had that kind of ambition? ,., ._ , , ambition? in some ways. listen, there was. _ ambition? in some ways. listen, there was, after— ambition? in some ways. listen, there was, after the _ ambition? in some ways. listen, there was, after the lansley - there was, after the lansley reforms, _ there was, after the lansley reforms, there was a feeling that we couldn't— reforms, there was a feeling that we couldn't trouble the system again. do you _ couldn't trouble the system again. do you what lord darzi calls the health and social care... i do you what lord darzi calls the health and social care. . .- do you what lord darzi calls the health and social care... i read it. it was a health and social care... i read it. it was a calamity _ health and social care... i read it. it was a calamity without - it was a calamity without international president. it proved disastrous for stock do you agree? the danger of scapegoating andrew lansley— the danger of scapegoating andrew lansley for today' nhs problems... it is lansley for today' nhs problems... it is not _ lansley for today' nhs problems... it is not really about scapegoating andrew lansley. he was the health secretary, the prime minister was david cameron, the chancellor george osborne, they were all in it 0sborne, they were all in it together and the party voted for it. those reforms were a mistake. they were largely unwound and they were regretful— were largely unwound and they were regretful but the idea that today' nhs is _ regretful but the idea that today' nhs is problematic simply because of a reform _ nhs is problematic simply because of a reform agenda that went wrong 12 years _ a reform agenda that went wrong 12 years agom — a reform agenda that went wrong 12 years ago... it a reform agenda that went wrong 12 years ago- - -— years ago... it is not 'ust because of that.

years ago... it is notjust because of that. administrative _ of that. administrative displacement. - of that. administrative displacement. i - of that. administrative displacement. i would | of that. administrative - displacement. i would like us to of that. administrative _ displacement. i would like us to be focused _ displacement. i would like us to be focused on — displacement. i would like us to be focused on the other thing, the capital— focused on the other thing, the capital spend. why couldn't we persuade — capital spend. why couldn't we persuade the treasury to spend the 39 billion? — persuade the treasury to spend the 39 billion? you persuade the treasury to spend the 39 billion? ., persuade the treasury to spend the 39 billion?_ wes - 39 billion? you tell me. wes streeting — 39 billion? you tell me. wes streeting would _ 39 billion? you tell me. wes streeting would have - 39 billion? you tell me. wes streeting would have to - 39 billion? you tell me. wes i streeting would have to answer 39 billion? you tell me. wes - streeting would have to answer that. we didn't— streeting would have to answer that. we didn't manage to do it and he is now facing — we didn't manage to do it and he is now facing the challenge. the answer is health— now facing the challenge. the answer is health and growth were not put together— is health and growth were not put together in the same thought. we never— together in the same thought. we never managed to persuade the treasury— never managed to persuade the treasury that an investment in health— treasury that an investment in health would yield an economic dividend — health would yield an economic dividend. in fact, the treasury took the view_ dividend. in fact, the treasury took the view that spending money on health— the view that spending money on health was basically money down the drain and _ health was basically money down the drain and allthat health was basically money down the drain and all that would happen as it would _ drain and all that would happen as it would lead to older people living longer and costing us more. we need a massive _ longer and costing us more. we need a massive rethink on that mentality and if— a massive rethink on that mentality and if that— a massive rethink on that mentality and if that is not fixed, we will have _ and if that is not fixed, we will have the — and if that is not fixed, we will have the same problem in ten years' time _ have the same problem in ten years' time. so_ have the same problem in ten years' time, ., , , have the same problem in ten years' time. ., , , ., time. so austerity, lord darzi oints time. so austerity, lord darzi points out. — time. so austerity, lord darzi points out, was _ time. so austerity, lord darzi points out, was one - time. so austerity, lord darzi points out, was one of - time. so austerity, lord darzi points out, was one of the i time. so austerity, lord darzi. points out, was one of the four major reasons why the nhs is in the state it is in england and capital start date —— starvation. spending growing at around 1% in real terms

buster in 2018, more realistic promise was made of 3.4% and that was broken. spending increased by just under 3% a year.— just under 3% a year. day-to-day sendin: just under 3% a year. day-to-day spending on the nhs has - just under 3% a year. day-to-day spending on the nhs has never i just under 3% a year. day-to-day i spending on the nhs has never been higher~ _ spending on the nhs has never been higher~ we _ spending on the nhs has never been higher. we are currently spending, eu average, we are absolutely spending more than we have ever done _ spending more than we have ever done. there is a capital deficit that— done. there is a capital deficit that the — done. there is a capital deficit that the problem with the nhs in the report— that the problem with the nhs in the report from lord darzi points out, it's more — report from lord darzi points out, it's more than what happened ten years— it's more than what happened ten years ago. — it's more than what happened ten years ago, it's that we haven't adjusted — years ago, it's that we haven't adjusted to the amazing industrial revolution going on in health to catch— revolution going on in health to catch disease earlier and treating eartier~ to — catch disease earlier and treating earlier. to make up the workforce deficit _ earlier. to make up the workforce deficit that — earlier. to make up the workforce deficit that we have and every other country _ deficit that we have and every other country has — deficit that we have and every other country has. to get community treatment— country has. to get community treatment working and fired up and to deliver— treatment working and fired up and to deliver productivity returns. these — to deliver productivity returns. these are _ to deliver productivity returns. these are massive challenges. they are massive — these are massive challenges. they are massive challenges _ these are massive challenges. tue: are massive challenges but these are massive challenges. tte: are massive challenges but you these are massive challenges. t"t21 are massive challenges but you had 14 years. i feel like you are speaking as though you haven't been in power for speaking as though you haven't been in powerfor loads speaking as though you haven't been in power for loads of time. speaking as though you haven't been in powerfor loads of time. tt is

in power for loads of time. it is not that, _ in power for loads of time. it is not that, i _ in power for loads of time. it is not that, i feel _ in power for loads of time. it is not that, i feel very _ in power for loads of time. it is not that, i feel very frustrated that we — not that, i feel very frustrated that we were not able to wrestle with these problems as effectively as we _ with these problems as effectively as we should have done. gk. with these problems as effectively as we should have done. 0k. that's for sure, as we should have done. 0k. that's for sure. you _ as we should have done. 0k. that's for sure, you are _ as we should have done. 0k. that's for sure, you are a _ as we should have done. 0k. that's for sure, you are a gp _ as we should have done. 0k. that's for sure, you are a gp in _ for sure, you are a gp in 0xfordshire and also from the nuffield trust, which has contributed to some extent of this report. does it ring true with your experience and experience of your patients? experience and experience of your atients? ~ , ,., , ~' patients? absolutely, i think it does. i think _ patients? absolutely, i think it does. i think all— patients? absolutely, i think it does. i think all of _ patients? absolutely, i think it does. i think all of us - patients? absolutely, i think it does. i think all of us who i patients? absolutely, i think it does. i think all of us who use | patients? absolutely, i think it i does. i think all of us who use the nhs, who work in it and study it know full well it has been really struggling for a long time now. i think those problems have been in plain sight. i think what the report of lord darzi does is put it all together in a way that is quite arresting. i think the challenge now is also recognising that this is a partial diagnosis. i think government has been very keen to say we are going to set out all of the problems with the nhs but then outside the terms of this review where public health and social care. two vital services in the remit of local authorities. budgets have been massively cut, huge policy problems

have not been attended to over the past decade and the social care a lot longer. those services are affecting the nhs. find lot longer. those services are affecting the nhs.— lot longer. those services are affecting the nhs. and as we all know and these _ affecting the nhs. and as we all know and these are _ affecting the nhs. and as we all know and these are lord - affecting the nhs. and as we all know and these are lord darzi's| know and these are lord darzi's words, 13% of nhs beds are occupied by people waiting for social care support. marvin rees, sir keir starmer will say tomorrow reform or die, essentially because that is that what patients want to hear, what staff want to hear, more reform? tt what staff want to hear, more reform? . what staff want to hear, more reform? , ., ., , ., ., ., . reform? it is not a question of once but what we — reform? it is not a question of once but what we need _ reform? it is not a question of once but what we need to _ reform? it is not a question of once but what we need to hear. - reform? it is not a question of once but what we need to hear. we i reform? it is not a question of oncej but what we need to hear. we need reform? it is not a question of once i but what we need to hear. we need to hear the _ but what we need to hear. we need to hear the scale — but what we need to hear. we need to hear the scale of— but what we need to hear. we need to hear the scale of the _ but what we need to hear. we need to hear the scale of the challenge. - but what we need to hear. we need to hear the scale of the challenge. the i hear the scale of the challenge. the lord darzi _ hear the scale of the challenge. the lord darzi report _ hear the scale of the challenge. the lord darzi report lays _ hear the scale of the challenge. the lord darzi report lays it— hear the scale of the challenge. the lord darzi report lays it out. - hear the scale of the challenge. the lord darzi report lays it out. i- lord darzi report lays it out. i would — lord darzi report lays it out. i would say. _ lord darzi report lays it out. i would say. in _ lord darzi report lays it out. i would say, in the _ lord darzi report lays it out. i would say, in the three - lord darzi report lays it out. i| would say, in the three pillars lord darzi report lays it out. i- would say, in the three pillars you mentioned — would say, in the three pillars you mentioned that _ would say, in the three pillars you mentioned that keir— would say, in the three pillars you mentioned that keir will— would say, in the three pillars you mentioned that keir will talk i would say, in the three pillars you i mentioned that keir will talk about, this movement _ mentioned that keir will talk about, this movement to _ mentioned that keir will talk about, this movement to prevention - mentioned that keir will talk about, this movement to prevention as i mentioned that keir will talk about, i this movement to prevention as well, is incredibly— this movement to prevention as well, is incredibly welcome. _ this movement to prevention as well, is incredibly welcome. since - this movement to prevention as well, is incredibly welcome. since i- this movement to prevention as well, is incredibly welcome. since i was i is incredibly welcome. since i was elected _ is incredibly welcome. since i was elected in — is incredibly welcome. since i was elected in 2016 _ is incredibly welcome. since i was elected in 2016 and _ is incredibly welcome. since i was elected in 2016 and before - is incredibly welcome. since i was elected in 2016 and before that i. elected in 2016 and before that i worked — elected in 2016 and before that i worked in — elected in 2016 and before that i worked in public— elected in 2016 and before that i worked in public health- elected in 2016 and before that i worked in public health when i elected in 2016 and before that i worked in public health when it. elected in 2016 and before that i. worked in public health when it was in the _ worked in public health when it was in the national— worked in public health when it was in the national health _ worked in public health when it was in the national health service i worked in public health when it was in the national health service was i in the national health service was that we _ in the national health service was that we were _ in the national health service was that we were constantly— in the national health service was that we were constantly asking i in the national health service wasj that we were constantly asking for the national— that we were constantly asking for the national conversation - that we were constantly asking for the national conversation about i the national conversation about health— the national conversation about health not— the national conversation about health notjust _ the national conversation about health not just a _ the national conversation about health not just a focus - the national conversation about health not just a focus on - the national conversation abouti health not just a focus on health services — health not just a focus on health services but _ health not just a focus on health services but to _ health not just a focus on health

services but to look— health not just a focus on health services but to look at _ health not just a focus on health services but to look at public- services but to look at public health — services but to look at public health not _ services but to look at public health. not even getting i services but to look at public health. not even getting to. services but to look at public. health. not even getting to the point _ health. not even getting to the point of— health. not even getting to the point of once _ health. not even getting to the point of once a _ health. not even getting to the point of once a man _ health. not even getting to the point of once a man begins i health. not even getting to the i point of once a man begins to be set, _ point of once a man begins to be set. how— point of once a man begins to be set. how do— point of once a man begins to be set. how do you _ point of once a man begins to be set, how do you create the i set, how do you create the conditions _ set, how do you create the conditions across - set, how do you create the conditions across housing, | conditions across housing, education. _ conditions across housing, education, access- conditions across housing, education, access to - conditions across housing, i education, access to nutrition, loneliness that— education, access to nutrition, loneliness that people are i education, access to nutrition, j loneliness that people are less vulnerable? _ loneliness that people are less vulnerable?— loneliness that people are less vulnerable? ~ ., , , ., ., vulnerable? what is frustrating to me is not only — vulnerable? what is frustrating to me is not only from _ vulnerable? what is frustrating to me is not only from an _ vulnerable? what is frustrating to me is not only from an nhs i vulnerable? what is frustrating to me is not only from an nhs point| vulnerable? what is frustrating to i me is not only from an nhs point of view are _ me is not only from an nhs point of view are way— me is not only from an nhs point of view are way behind on scanning, on vaccines— view are way behind on scanning, on vaccines and — view are way behind on scanning, on vaccines and the basic admin of running — vaccines and the basic admin of running public health, as marvin pointed — running public health, as marvin pointed out, we haven't created a world _ pointed out, we haven't created a world in _ pointed out, we haven't created a world in which it is easy to lead a healthy_ world in which it is easy to lead a healthy life. that is partly about the food — healthy life. that is partly about the food environment, dirty air, the stress _ the food environment, dirty air, the stress people have at work and houses — stress people have at work and houses people live in. i would like to see _ houses people live in. i would like to see a _ houses people live in. i would like to see a report like this leads to a rcatty— to see a report like this leads to a really ambitious agenda that goes upstream and fixed the kind of world people _ upstream and fixed the kind of world people live _ upstream and fixed the kind of world people live in so we can actually reduce — people live in so we can actually reduce the — people live in so we can actually reduce the amount of disease in this country _ reduce the amount of disease in this country is _ reduce the amount of disease in this count . . .. reduce the amount of disease in this count . , ., , i reduce the amount of disease in this country._ i think i reduce the amount of disease in this country._ i think it i country. is that doable? i think it would certainly _ country. is that doable? i think it would certainly be _ country. is that doable? i think it would certainly be a _ country. is that doable? i think it would certainly be a challenge i country. is that doable? i think it would certainly be a challenge in| would certainly be a challenge in the current fiscal situation is that i wanted to address this point about reform, which you raised as well, and i want to be very clear about what we think should be in the spoke —— scope of reform and what shouldn't. keir starmer setting out

three missions and there are two important things i hope will be taken off the table. the first is moving away from their system of paying for the nhs. universal health care funded by taxation, free at the point of delivery. we know there is enormous public support for that. that needs to be off the table. the second thing is big structural reorganisation out of the 2012 act. we have orally had the criticisms from lord darzi. many of us who work and research the service would say let's take big top down reforms of the table. the benefits of those are often over imagined, overstated, the disruption is underestimated and underplayed and i think it would be great to have a conversation about what reform can look like when it doesn't have those components in it. it could take many years for... you didn't manage it in 14, labour may not manage it in five or ten if they got elected again. and the state of the nhs, as lord darzi points out,

is critical. it needs improvement now, doesn't it, marvin rees? again, the labour now, doesn't it, marvin rees? again, the labour party _ now, doesn't it, marvin rees? again, the labour party have _ now, doesn't it, marvin rees? again, the labour party have been _ now, doesn't it, marvin rees? again, the labour party have been talking i the labour party have been talking about _ the labour party have been talking about the — the labour party have been talking about the inheritance _ the labour party have been talking about the inheritance and - the labour party have been talking about the inheritance and that i the labour party have been talking about the inheritance and that is i about the inheritance and that is what _ about the inheritance and that is what it _ about the inheritance and that is what it is — about the inheritance and that is what it is. health _ about the inheritance and that is what it is. health is _ about the inheritance and that is what it is. health is in _ about the inheritance and that is what it is. health is in crisis i what it is. health is in crisis right— what it is. health is in crisis right now— what it is. health is in crisis right now and _ what it is. health is in crisis right now and we _ what it is. health is in crisis right now and we need i what it is. health is in crisisl right now and we need crisis intervention— right now and we need crisis intervention in— right now and we need crisis| intervention in people's lives now and at the — intervention in people's lives now and at the same time _ intervention in people's lives now and at the same time needing i intervention in people's lives now and at the same time needing to| intervention in people's lives now. and at the same time needing to fix and at the same time needing to fix a system _ and at the same time needing to fix a system that— and at the same time needing to fix a system that has— and at the same time needing to fix a system that has to _ and at the same time needing to fix a system that has to deliver- and at the same time needing to fix a system that has to deliver againstj a system that has to deliver against those _ a system that has to deliver against those crises — a system that has to deliver against those crises but _ a system that has to deliver against those crises but in _ a system that has to deliver against those crises but in a _ a system that has to deliver against those crises but in a different- a system that has to deliver against those crises but in a different way. those crises but in a different way in the _ those crises but in a different way in the future _ those crises but in a different way in the future. it— those crises but in a different way in the future. it is— those crises but in a different way in the future. it is a _ those crises but in a different way in the future. it is a wicked - in the future. it is a wicked challenge _ in the future. it is a wicked challenge. going _ in the future. it is a wicked challenge. going back- in the future. it is a wicked challenge. going back to i in the future. it is a wicked i challenge. going back to the in the future. it is a wicked - challenge. going back to the report again. _ challenge. going back to the report again. there — challenge. going back to the report again. there is— challenge. going back to the report again, there is only— challenge. going back to the report again, there is only so— challenge. going back to the report again, there is only so much- challenge. going back to the reporti again, there is only so much anyone can do— again, there is only so much anyone can do at— again, there is only so much anyone can do at any— again, there is only so much anyone can do at any one _ again, there is only so much anyone can do at any one time. _ again, there is only so much anyone can do at any one time. i— again, there is only so much anyone can do at any one time. ithink- again, there is only so much anyone can do at any one time. i think it- can do at any one time. i think it is absolutely _ can do at any one time. i think it is absolutely essential _ can do at any one time. i think it is absolutely essential we - can do at any one time. i think it is absolutely essential we look i can do at any one time. i think it| is absolutely essential we look at the national— is absolutely essential we look at the national health _ is absolutely essential we look at the national health service - is absolutely essential we look at the national health service itself| the national health service itself but we _ the national health service itself but we have _ the national health service itself but we have to _ the national health service itself but we have to look _ the national health service itself but we have to look at _ the national health service itself but we have to look at the - the national health service itself. but we have to look at the context in which _ but we have to look at the context in which it — but we have to look at the context in which it is— but we have to look at the context in which it is happening. _ but we have to look at the context in which it is happening. when i but we have to look at the context| in which it is happening. when you talked _ in which it is happening. when you talked about — in which it is happening. when you talked about the _ in which it is happening. when you talked about the increasing - talked about the increasing complexity— talked about the increasing complexity and _ talked about the increasing complexity and growing i talked about the increasing i complexity and growing needs of talked about the increasing - complexity and growing needs of the population. — complexity and growing needs of the population. it— complexity and growing needs of the population. it is _ complexity and growing needs of the population, it is something - complexity and growing needs of the population, it is something that hasl population, it is something that has happened _ population, it is something that has happened around _ population, it is something that has happened around the _ population, it is something that has happened around the nhs- population, it is something that has happened around the nhs that i population, it is something that has happened around the nhs that is i happened around the nhs that is bringing — happened around the nhs that is bringing huge _ happened around the nhs that is bringing huge demand _ happened around the nhs that is bringing huge demand to - happened around the nhs that is bringing huge demand to the i happened around the nhs that is i bringing huge demand to the service was not _ bringing huge demand to the service was not let's— bringing huge demand to the service was not let's not— bringing huge demand to the service was not let's not forget, _ bringing huge demand to the service was not let's not forget, that - bringing huge demand to the service was not let's not forget, that is i was not let's not forget, that is also _ was not let's not forget, that is also something _ was not let's not forget, that is also something of— was not let's not forget, that is also something of a _ was not let's not forget, that is also something of a public- was not let's not forget, that is - also something of a public creation. population — also something of a public creation. population health— also something of a public creation. population health outcomes - also something of a public creation. population health outcomes are - also something of a public creation. i population health outcomes are down to social— population health outcomes are down to social policy — population health outcomes are down to social policy. there _ population health outcomes are down to social policy. there has _ population health outcomes are down to social policy. there has been - to social policy. there has been proactive — to social policy. there has been proactive disinvestment- to social policy. there has been proactive disinvestment in- to social policy. there has been proactive disinvestment in our. proactive disinvestment in our population— proactive disinvestment in our population since _ proactive disinvestment in our population since 2010 - proactive disinvestment in our population since 2010 that - proactive disinvestment in our| population since 2010 that has proactive disinvestment in our- population since 2010 that has left our population _ population since 2010 that has left our population is _

population since 2010 that has left our population is more _ population since 2010 that has left our population is more vulnerablei population since 2010 that has left l our population is more vulnerable to sickness _ our population is more vulnerable to sickness that — our population is more vulnerable to sickness. that sickness _ our population is more vulnerable to sickness. that sickness has - sickness. that sickness has accumulated _ sickness. that sickness has accumulated through- sickness. that sickness has accumulated through the l sickness. that sickness has. accumulated through the life sickness. that sickness has - accumulated through the life course and turned — accumulated through the life course and turned up— accumulated through the life course and turned up in— accumulated through the life course and turned up in services _ accumulated through the life course and turned up in services increasing| and turned up in services increasing demand _ and turned up in services increasing demand on — and turned up in services increasing demand on the _ and turned up in services increasing demand on the nhs. _ and turned up in services increasing demand on the nhs. good - and turned up in services increasing demand on the nhs. good quality. demand on the nhs. good quality homes, _ demand on the nhs. good quality homes, so — demand on the nhs. good quality homes, so we _ demand on the nhs. good quality homes, so we overcome - demand on the nhs. good quality homes, so we overcome the - demand on the nhs. good quality. homes, so we overcome the housing crisi5, _ homes, so we overcome the housing crisis. how— homes, so we overcome the housing crisis. how we — homes, so we overcome the housing crisis. how we keep _ homes, so we overcome the housing crisis, how we keep kids— homes, so we overcome the housing crisis, how we keep kids in— homes, so we overcome the housing crisis, how we keep kids in school, . crisis, how we keep kids in school, in the _ crisis, how we keep kids in school, in the education _ crisis, how we keep kids in school, in the education system, - crisis, how we keep kids in school, in the education system, all- crisis, how we keep kids in school, in the education system, all of- in the education system, all of these — in the education system, all of these things _ in the education system, all of these things produce - in the education system, all of these things produce a - in the education system, all of these things produce a more l these things produce a more resilient _ these things produce a more resilient population- these things produce a more resilient population which, . these things produce a more - resilient population which, going back to _ resilient population which, going back to your— resilient population which, going back to your earlier— resilient population which, going back to your earlier point, - back to your earlier point, healthier— back to your earlier point, healthier population - back to your earlier point, healthier population is - back to your earlier point, healthier population is a l back to your earlier point, - healthier population is a more economically— healthier population is a more economically prosperous - healthier population is a more - economically prosperous population and better— economically prosperous population and better for— economically prosperous population and better for our economic - and better for our economic resistance _ and better for our economic resistance to _ and better for our economic resistance to stop _ and better for our economic resistance to stop talking i and better for our economic - resistance to stop talking about investment, _ resistance to stop talking about investment, this _ resistance to stop talking about investment, this is _ resistance to stop talking about investment, this is a _ resistance to stop talking about investment, this is a sort - resistance to stop talking about investment, this is a sort of- investment, this is a sort of template _ investment, this is a sort of template for— investment, this is a sort of template for the _ investment, this is a sort of template for the reform - investment, this is a sort of. template for the reform plans investment, this is a sort of- template for the reform plans from“ template for the reform plans from keir starmer- _ template for the reform plans from keir starmer. in _ template for the reform plans from keir starmer. in his _ keir starmer. in his speech tomorrow, he is going to say we are at a fork in the road and we had a choice, raise taxes on working people to meet the ever higher costs of ageing population or we know working people cannot afford to pay more so it is reform or die. so a report that says one of the four core problems of the nhs is a lack of investment, is being picked up by the prime minister to say it's reform rather than increased taxes.

it is interesting, the last labour government, you will remember this, what happened with gordon brown going into the 2001 election? he got the one leicester report that said a 1% increase in national insurance and labour went into that 2001 election pledging a tax increase to increase to be spent on the nhs. election pledging a tax increase to be spent on the nhs. there are other ways to invest, it there are other ways to invest, it could _ there are other ways to invest, it could be — there are other ways to invest, it could be just _ there are other ways to invest, it could _ there are other ways to invest, it could be — there are other ways to invest, it could be just _ there are other ways to invest, it could be just the _ there are other ways to invest, it could be just the sum _ could be just the _ there are other ways to invest, it could be just the sum _ there are other ways to invest, it could be just the sum of money, | there are other ways to invest, it. could be just the sum of money, but tletter— could be just the sum of money, but betterjoin_ could be just the sum of money, but there are other ways to invest, it could be just the sum of money, | there are other ways to invest, it. could be just the sum of money, but tletter— could be just the sum of money, but betterjoin— could be just the sum of money, but betterjoin up— could be just the sum of money, but betterjoin up— could be just the sum of money, but betterjoin up between— betterjoin up between— could be just the sum of money, but could be just the sum of money, but betterjoin up between housing, - betterjoin up between housing, education — betterjoin up between housing, education transport _ betterjoin up between housing, betterjoin up between housing, - betterjoin up between housing, education — betterjoin up between housing, education transport _ betterjoin up between housing, education transport policy, - education transport policy, - betterjoin up between housing, - education transport policy, chester, adult _ education transport policy, chester, adult skills. — education transport policy, chester, betterjoin up between housing, - education transport policy, chester, adult _ education transport policy, chester, adult skills. — education transport policy, chester, adult skills, children's _ education transport policy, chester, adult skills, children's pathway, - adult skills, children's pathway, all those — adult skills, children's _ education transport policy, chester, adult skills, children's pathway, - adult skills, children's pathway, all those — adult skills, children's pathway, all those could _ adult skills, children's pathway, all those could be _ adult skills, children's pathway, adult skills, children's pathway, all those could _ adult skills, children's pathway, all those could be _ adult skills, children's pathway, all those could be low—cost - all those could be low—cost interventions _ all those could be low—cost interventions that - all those could be low—cost all those could be low—cost - all those could be low—cost interventions _ all those could be low—cost interventions that - all those could be low—cost interventions that reduce . all those could be low—cost - interventions that reduce higher interventions that reduce . all those could be low—cost - interventions that reduce higher costs— interventions that reduce higher costs later— interventions that reduce higher made those exact points. costs— interventions that reduce higher costs later— interventions that reduce higher costs later on. _ costs later on. _ interventions that reduce higher costs later on. i— interventions that reduce higher interventions that reduce higher costs later on. i— interventions that reduce higher costs later on.— interventions that reduce higher costs later on. i think sugar tax, costs later on.— interventions that reduce higher costs later on. i think sugar tax, smokin: costs later on. i think sugar tax, smoking bans. _ costs later on. i think sugar tax, smoking bans, things _ costs later on. i think sugar tax, smoking bans, things which - costs later on. i think sugar tax, l smoking bans, things which could smokin: costs later on. i think sugar tax, smoking bans. _ costs later on. i think sugar tax, smoking bans, things _ costs later on. i think sugar tax, smoking bans, things which - costs later on. i think sugar tax, l smoking bans, things which could make quite a big impact and we need make quite a big impact and we need to persuade the 0br to start scoring to persuade the 0br to start scoring some of these investments so that some of these investments so that money can be borrowed in order to money can be borrowed in order to invest in a health system. i invest in a health system. i money can be borrowed in order to money can be borrowed in order to invest in a health system.- invest in a health system. i cannot think of a single _ invest in a health system.- invest in a health system. i cannot think of a single _ invest in a health system. i cannot think of a single public _ invest in a health system. i cannot think of a single public health - think of a single public health minister— think of a single public health invest in a health system. i cannot think of a single public _ invest in a health system. i cannot think of a single public health - think of a single public health minister— think of a single public health minister over the 27 years that i minister over the 27 years that i have _ minister over the 27 years that i have treen— minister over the 27 years that i have been in westminster has not have _ minister over the 27 years that i have treen— minister over the 27 years that i have been in westminster has not made _ made _ have been in westminster has not made those exact points. | have been in westminster has not made those exact points. |

have been in westminster has not made those exact points.- have been in westminster has not have been in westminster has not made those exact points.- have been in westminster has not made those exact points. i think it matters where _ made those exact points. i think it matters where we _ made those exact points. i think it matters where we spend - made those exact points. i think it matters where we spend the - made those exact points. i think it i matters where we spend the money, money has to ship into primary community services from hospitals

their dads are here tonight in the week the prime minister held a knife crime summit aimed at halving incidents over the next decade. knife crime in england and wales rose by 7% in the year to december 2023 compared with the previous 12 months, according to officialfigures. but the total of around 49,500 recorded offences remained below pre—pandemic levels. lets�* talk to rob's dad colin and charlie's dad martin. thank you very much for being with us, thank you for your patience. martin, what was charlie like? i get martin, what was charlie like? i get asked this question _ martin, what was charlie like? i get asked this question are not and i have not got the time to answer it, to be honest because there are so many things i could say about my incredibly unique, charismatic, cheeky, with a heart of gold. could be a pain, as kids can, but he was the heartbeat of our family in so

many ways, charlie, was happy in life had his whole life ahead of him. ., . . , life had his whole life ahead of him. ., . ., .,, life had his whole life ahead of him. ., . ~' same him. colin, what was rob like? same as martin described _ him. colin, what was rob like? same as martin described about _ him. colin, what was rob like? same as martin described about his - him. colin, what was rob like? same as martin described about his son - as martin described about his son charlie _ as martin described about his son charlie it's— as martin described about his son charlie. it's almost the same as i could _ charlie. it's almost the same as i could have — charlie. it's almost the same as i could have said about rob. remember one thing _ could have said about rob. remember one thing in— could have said about rob. remember one thing in particular, when was about— one thing in particular, when was about 40 — one thing in particular, when was about 40 gave myjive money can go and spend. _ about 40 gave myjive money can go and spend, go and buy some or something _ and spend, go and buy some or something and i found out the money down to— something and i found out the money down to barclays bank in sitka to the children in need africa. that was the — the children in need africa. that was the call of the boy, he was a generous— was the call of the boy, he was a generous like, funny, cheeky like your son — generous like, funny, cheeky like your son was cheeky.— generous like, funny, cheeky like your son was cheeky. yeah, i called him cheeks- — your son was cheeky. yeah, i called him cheeks. and _ your son was cheeky. yeah, i called him cheeks. and deeply _ your son was cheeky. yeah, i called him cheeks. and deeply missed. i your son was cheeky. yeah, i called him cheeks. and deeply missed. ij him cheeks. and deeply missed. of course. him cheeks. and deeply missed. of course- and — him cheeks. and deeply missed. of course. and rob _ him cheeks. and deeply missed. of course. and rob was _ him cheeks. and deeply missed. of course. and rob was making - him cheeks. and deeply missed. of course. and rob was making his . him cheeks. and deeply missed. 0f| course. and rob was making his way in the acting world, he was doing so well. he in the acting world, he was doing so well. . , , , ., .,

well. he was. he finished shooting his harry potter — well. he was. he finished shooting his harry potter on _ well. he was. he finished shooting his harry potter on the _ well. he was. he finished shooting his harry potter on the tuesday, . well. he was. he finished shooting l his harry potter on the tuesday, was certified _ his harry potter on the tuesday, was certified as _ his harry potter on the tuesday, was certified as being dead. how wicked life is— certified as being dead. how wicked life is not— certified as being dead. how wicked life is not around anymore, it is awful — life is not around anymore, it is awful 0r— life is not around anymore, it is awful or to _ life is not around anymore, it is awful. or to be ideal, life is not around anymore, it is awful. 0rto be ideal, promising, foracting, — awful. 0rto be ideal, promising, for acting, for by a mindless, stupid — for acting, for by a mindless, stupid to _ for acting, for by a mindless, stupid to get two kitchen knives for the purpose of killing someone said that the _ the purpose of killing someone said that the comeback technique and someone — that the comeback technique and someone will die. they did and can i ask what— someone will die. they did and can i ask what to — someone will die. they did and can i ask what to charlie?— ask what to charlie? yeah, so, charlie went _ ask what to charlie? yeah, so, charlie went out, _ ask what to charlie? yeah, so, charlie went out, the - ask what to charlie? yeah, so, charlie went out, the last - ask what to charlie? yeah, so, charlie went out, the last time j ask what to charlie? yeah, so, | charlie went out, the last time i saw him move, the 22nd ofjuly last year on the saturday, got a knock on the door, two surfaces, sunday the

23rd ofjuly, half past 12 bank bank. i run downstairs are you martin? goodness me, they know my name yes, i am at it. i'm afraid yourson name yes, i am at it. i'm afraid your son charlie has been stuck is critical. my wife and my 15—year—old daughter to, critical. my wife and my 15—year—old daughterto, louise, adam, critical. my wife and my 15—year—old daughter to, louise, adam, who lives with his partner. a traumatic cardiac arrest, we were behind while they operated, they have to massage his heart,. the model times, but then we rushed up to the royal sussex, locked in a police car materialised child another cardiac arrest. very, very long story. fast forward, for two days fought for his life every gram of blood in his body, had a ruptured spleen ruptured bowel fought so hard god blesses hot, for two days, and then lost his battle 20 to eight on tuesday the

25th ofjuly, 17 years old, because someone thought it was all right to take a knife to a party, use it on innocent human being, victoria. pond innocent human being, victoria. and don't know how either of you cope with the loss of a child in that way. i don't know how. charity, for me. i way. i don't know how. charity, for me- i throw _ way. i don't know how. charity, for me. i throw myself— way. i don't know how. charity, for me. i throw myself into _ way. i don't know how. charity, for me. i throw myself into charlie's . me. i throw myself into charlie's promised, i made a promise that i would spend the rest of my life if you educating young people about the dangers of knife crime. we have lots of charity objects but it starts with education and we look at it at the moment and one of the things i am fighting for and hoping comes to passis am fighting for and hoping comes to pass is having as compulsory, in pshe lessons, because at the moment i'm finding some schools really embrace and others bury their heads in the sand. not going to schools because saying you have got a nice problem, we are preventative charity, i want to prepare children for life, because believe you me if it can happen to my little boy can happen to anyone that is interesting

because some... g0 happen to anyone that is interesting because some. . ._ because some... go on going to say the same thing- _ because some... go on going to say the same thing. ike _ because some... go on going to say the same thing. ike taylor - because some... go on going to say the same thing. ike taylor my - because some... go on going to say| the same thing. ike taylor my talks, don't no in the same thing. ike taylor my talks, don't go in there _ the same thing. ike taylor my talks, don't go in there to _ the same thing. ike taylor my talks, don't go in there to scare _ the same thing. ike taylor my talks, don't go in there to scare the - the same thing. ike taylor my talks, don't go in there to scare the kids i don't go in there to scare the kids but it is hard hitting the back four, but it needs to be full by educate children on what can do if they are aware of a knife carrier, how do you report it anonymously, if you know someone has got a knife at a party? the night charlie was stopped, there were three opportunities which were missed. chanc was mentioned twice and knife once. if one person reported that to a mother who was at home but they may have done something different they have seen an organisation like me or i work with a reformed gang member as well, carl scott they had seen someone like me. you member as well, carl scott they had seen someone like me.— member as well, carl scott they had seen someone like me. you lost rob 16 years ago. — seen someone like me. you lost rob 16 years ago. for _ seen someone like me. you lost rob 16 years ago. for you _ seen someone like me. you lost rob 16 years ago, for you is _ seen someone like me. you lost rob 16 years ago, for you isjust - seen someone like me. you lost rob 16 years ago, for you isjust a - seen someone like me. you lost rob 16 years ago, for you isjust a year i 16 years ago, for you is just a year and i know that you have to pay as the years have gone by, you got a little more sceptical, is that fair terms of what you want politicians to do politicians can do? because

the last government brought in various acts, increased the maximum sentence for carrying a knife, et cetera, this government are going to ban laws on the it is no surprise i have become sceptical, because 16 years past, what happened to? ads, rise years past, what happened to? a rise and another — years past, what happened to? a rise and another rise. _ years past, what happened to? a rise and another rise. i _ years past, what happened to? a rise and another rise. i have _ years past, what happened to? a rise and another rise. i have never- years past, what happened to? " so: and another rise. i have never seen one positive thing, says this is how knife crime. it was said once the conservative manifesto that they would want anyone caught carrying a knife could face a should have been the word should, not cooked. that one word changes everything. it is a get—out clause for the conservatives at the time. nothing positive happened. and i think it is about

time... we have got labour in position now, to make change. they can'tjust suddenly wake position now, to make change. they can't just suddenly wake up position now, to make change. they can'tjust suddenly wake up and say, oh, we have a knife crime issue. zt} oh, we have a knife crime issue. 20 ears. oh, we have a knife crime issue. 20 years. nice crime is up 78% in the last ten— years. nice crime is up 78% in the last ten years of his growing 5% year—on—year. it is good that the government are talking about knife crime _ government are talking about knife crime but _ government are talking about knife crime but you alluded to injure swords, — crime but you alluded to injure swords, zombie knives, i hearthis all the _ swords, zombie knives, i hearthis all the time, — swords, zombie knives, i hearthis all the time, we did not find the weapon— all the time, we did not find the weapon which murdered my son but i -ot weapon which murdered my son but i got his— weapon which murdered my son but i got his clothes yesterday, we have onlyjust _ got his clothes yesterday, we have onlyjust got them back you can see the michael woods, they are small. they think— the michael woods, they are small. they think it was a small folding night, _ they think it was a small folding night, so — they think it was a small folding night, so it is great that we are talking — night, so it is great that we are talking about that but the bigger picture _ talking about that but the bigger picture is, it can be no life. it starts — picture is, it can be no life. it starts with— picture is, it can be no life. it starts with education. 0ne picture is, it can be no life. it starts with education. one of the push _ starts with education. one of the push backs i always get is, it starts — push backs i always get is, it starts at _ push backs i always get is, it starts at home. of course it starts at home _ starts at home. of course it starts at home if— starts at home. of course it starts at home if you have got a family that have — at home if you have got a family that have got the infrastructure, that have got the infrastructure, that care — that have got the infrastructure, that care about their children, that love them — that care about their children, that love them enough to be able to demonstrate the right behaviours, role model, values, morals, if they

have _ role model, values, morals, if they have not— role model, values, morals, if they have not got— role model, values, morals, if they have not got that, then we are relying — have not got that, then we are relying on— have not got that, then we are relying on the education in schools. has got— relying on the education in schools. has got to — relying on the education in schools. has got to be part of our curriculum, i feel so passionately about— curriculum, i feel so passionately about it — curriculum, i feel so passionately about it i— curriculum, i feel so passionately about it. . curriculum, i feel so passionately aboutit. . ., curriculum, i feel so passionately about it. . ., ., about it. i want to come in on the back end of _ about it. i want to come in on the back end of that. _ about it. i want to come in on the back end of that. this _ about it. i want to come in on the back end of that. this is - about it. i want to come in on the back end of that. this is going - about it. i want to come in on the back end of that. this is going to | back end of that. this is going to sound stupid, 0k? knives are not a problem. does that surprise you? {30 problem. does that surprise you? go on the way i look at it is, it is the person that carries the night. we have an issue with people. take the man away from the... so, i know knives are the reason for people being killed, but it's the person that carries the knife, is the issue. courage, train, educate, deter labour party are in good position now to make sure what you have been asking for, supporting you on this 100% of the curriculum, it is the school, there must be something where they educate people. ijust

something where they educate people. i just want to ask you finally, thank you for being so open you for telling us about your boys — describe how the whole family is affected, when a child is taken like this do you know what, oh, my goodness, there are no words to describe the trauma, the darkness. i look at my daughter, who was 15 was not able to do her gcses because of the murder trial she was there when her brother died, she was there with the first knock on the dog the chapel of rest, she was at his funeral. ., ., , ., , , ., chapel of rest, she was at his funeral. ., ., i. , i. . funeral. how do you help your child when ou funeral. how do you help your child when you are _ funeral. how do you help your child when you are coming _ funeral. how do you help your child when you are coming to _ funeral. how do you help your child when you are coming to terms - funeral. how do you help your child when you are coming to terms with j when you are coming to terms with the fact— when you are coming to terms with the fact that you have lost one? you do everything you can to support them, _ do everything you can to support them, and — do everything you can to support them, and my eldest son, although it is slightly— them, and my eldest son, although it is slightly different with adam, i love him — is slightly different with adam, i love him equally but he has his own partner, _ love him equally but he has his own partner, his— love him equally but he has his own partner, his own child now. how do you give _ partner, his own child now. how do you give your — partner, his own child now. how do you give your child what they need when _ you give your child what they need when they— you give your child what they need when they are struggling so much themselves? it is the darkest of dark places. i have never felt so

lonely, — dark places. i have never felt so lonely, because unless, unless you have _ lonely, because unless, unless you have had _ lonely, because unless, unless you have had a — lonely, because unless, unless you have had a child murdered, i have only met — have had a child murdered, i have only met colin twice built a great level— only met colin twice built a great level of— only met colin twice built a great level of rapport, you just don't understand feelings and emotions, words _ understand feelings and emotions, words that don't even exist happy my family. _ words that don't even exist happy my family, colin's, it's excruciating. -- have— family, colin's, it's excruciating. -- have hit— family, colin's, it's excruciating. —— have hit my family. for family, colin's, it's excruciating. -- have hit my family.— family, colin's, it's excruciating. -- have hit my family. for both so much, -- have hit my family. for both so much. we — -- have hit my family. for both so much, we really _ -- have hit my family. for both so much, we really appreciate - -- have hit my family. for both so much, we really appreciate you i much, we really appreciate you talking to us and to our audience. earlier this week the prime minister held a downing street summit on knife crime attended by actor idris elba. here's some of what they had to say. people wanted to hear a voice like myself that had a soapbox to use and speak up and say something. five years later, six years later, though, unfortunately, we're still talking. you know, talking's good but action is more important. yeah. far too many knives are too easily available, whether that's online, whether that's through the post...

marvin rees, when you were mayor in bristol, there is a knife crime problem there, how do you think it should be approached first off, as we have done tonight, by listening to parents, and people who have been writing. i think this first step by keir starmer listening is a good sign. police scotland funded a violence reduction unit and they have approached my crime as a public health issue and significant liver

due to the number of incidents. so, they will go into hospitals and they will talk to someone who has been stabbed and they will say, have you got a job, have you got a house? do you need help getting off drugs? they do it that way. it feels like if that is good practice, it clearly is, why not do it everywhere? the oddlb did, — is, why not do it everywhere? the oddlb did, we _ is, why not do it everywhere? tie: oddlb did, we had is, why not do it everywhere? ti9: oddlb did, we had a team, is, why not do it everywhere? ti9 oddlb did, we had a team, my deputy mayor and my team went up to glasgow to learn from that public health approach. which requires an approach that takes the law and enforcement seriously, because it must. but also looks the determining factors, looks at wraparound support and offers a restorative route out as well so when people are wanting to get away from that life can get away from risk they can get support to find a way out. i have had young people in my office, just before i left, a young teenager who lived in that crossover world of potential to be a potential perpetrator, and what you

needed at that point in time was people to show that they