karsh gave a signed copy of the print to the chateau laurier hotel in ottawa, where he'd lived for almost 20 years. it hung in the reading room. then, in 2022, staff noticed it had been stolen and replaced with a fake. the police were helped by hundreds of people who sent in their own photos — some with the real image, some with the fake. it allowed them to narrow the date of the theft to just a few days. we now know the photograph was stolen in canada just after christmas in 2021. earlier this year, it was sold in london at an unnamed auction house and was eventually recovered from a private buyer in northern italy. but still, there are unanswered questions. why the auction house didn't do a quick google search on the internet is beyond me. they would have found instantly that this was a stolen piece.

the prime minister says he won't allow health unions to block nhs reform. one of britain's highest level trade union leader is here. will mick lynch and his colleagues play ball with labour reforms? also tonight, in an exclusive interview, john legend on his wife's abortion, elon musk and donald trump's claims that migrants eat your pets. he 5 - read that migrants eat your pets. he: spread vicious rumours that migrants eat your pets. he spread vicious rumours about them eating cats and dogs, playing to bigotry, like he always does.

welcome to newsnight— live each week night for interviews and insight. our exclsuive interview with pop starjohn legend in a little while. your insight tonight comes from the general secretary of the rmt union mick lynch. ex—snp mp hannah bardell. and lbc presenter and conservative commentator iain dale. and our political editor nick watt is here as always. we have had keir starmer talking about reform of the public services, particularly the nhs in england and then he says money will come, as a union leader when you hear a labour leader say there will be no extra money for the nhs without reforms how do you take that? i money for the nhs without reforms how do you take that?— how do you take that? i would be surrised how do you take that? i would be surprised if— how do you take that? i would be surprised if they _ how do you take that? i would be surprised if they don't _ how do you take that? i would be surprised if they don't put - how do you take that? i would be surprised if they don't put any - surprised if they don't put any money in. they have the winter challenge. he money in. they have the winter challenge-— money in. they have the winter challenge._ we - money in. they have the winter challenge._ we willl money in. they have the winter- challenge._ we will see, challenge. he said no. we will see, he has been — challenge. he said no. we will see, he has been brave _ challenge. he said no. we will see, he has been brave in _ challenge. he said no. we will see, he has been brave in his _ challenge. he said no. we will see, he has been brave in his terms - challenge. he said no. we will see, l he has been brave in his terms about

the winter fuel allowance. but you need to know where you're going to target the money, if reform is successful and he brings the staff with him, he may get the results that he wanted. there is a need for change. i think the unions will look at the proposals and see if they can work with him. but it will be a robust conversation and from what the bma has said and other colleagues, there will be partnerships to some extent, but there will be push back where there needs to be. here is what keir starmer said. reporter: professor john bell said this- morning that doctors and the _ bma have been a major drag on reforming health care. . do you predict that the bma will now embrace productivity reform with - open arms? well, look, i have said we'll do this with the staff and we will. but i know from my old job running the crown prosecution service that whenever you try to reform anything, there will be some people, i'm afraid, who will say, "don't do that, it

is better as it is". i know in my heart of hearts that we will meet pockets of people who will say, "don't do it, slow down, go over there, not over there, leave things as they are". we have to take that on and we will take that on. that's part and parcel of the change. so nick from what he said, what does it tell us about he he will approach public sector reform. he it tell us about he he will approach public sector reform.— public sector reform. he believes that he is on _ public sector reform. he believes that he is on a _ public sector reform. he believes that he is on a historic _ public sector reform. he believes that he is on a historic mission i public sector reform. he believes that he is on a historic mission to change the way the country is run. there is a political point. he believes it it 14 years of misrule, but he thinks there is structural problems and westminster is out of touch. he believes the nhs is broken and needs reform. in those remarks he was making clear that he is willing to be unpopular. he likens the mission with the nhs to the mission to reform the labour party. he talked of how there was resistance, but he said he drove the

changes through. i do have to say it sounded ratherfamiliar changes through. i do have to say it sounded rather familiar to another prime minister 25 years ago. let's listen to tony blair in 1999. people in the public sector are more rooted in the concept that if it's - always been done this way, it must always be done this way than any l group of people i've ever come across. i it is not that there aren't - wonderful people in there, with a tremendous commitment to publicl service, but you try getting change, you know, in the public sector- and public services and you know, i bare the scars on my back. so is keir starmer learning from tony blair who, looked so young there didn't he? he tony blair who, looked so young there didn't he?— there didn't he? he is a keen student of— there didn't he? he is a keen student of tony _ there didn't he? he is a keen student of tony blair - there didn't he? he is a keen student of tony blair and - there didn't he? he is a keen i student of tony blair and since there didn't he? he is a keen - student of tony blair and since he stopped being prime minister and in his new book tony blair said early on you have political capital, but little savvy. at the end of your time in office, you have little

political capital, but a lot of knowledge about how to deliver change. the big lesson from tony blair is you need to understand that and move very, very quickly. and so we have that message as nick said —— mick said is no extra cash without reform. the conservatives may say, is there a mismatch with what rachel reeves said injuly when she announced the pay settlements and the conservatives say they were delivered with no guarantee from the unions of increased productivity. that what is the tories are say. [30 that what is the tories are say. do ou that what is the tories are say. do you think there is a mismatch, iain dale? i you think there is a mismatch, iain dale? ~ , you think there is a mismatch, iain dale? ~' , ., you think there is a mismatch, iain dale? ~' , :, , :, : dale? i think there is a mismatch in the sense that _ dale? i think there is a mismatch in the sense that it _ dale? i think there is a mismatch in the sense that it is _ dale? i think there is a mismatch in the sense that it is difficult - dale? i think there is a mismatch in the sense that it is difficult to - the sense that it is difficult to turn _ the sense that it is difficult to turn around a public service very fihhinglx — turn around a public service very fihhinglx -- _ turn around a public service very fibbingly. —— very quickly and tony blair_ fibbingly. —— very quickly and tony blair found — fibbingly. —— very quickly and tony blair found that. o' fibbingly. —— very quickly and tony blair found that. 0' not least if you look— blair found that. 0' not least if you look at the ministers involved in a lot— you look at the ministers involved in a lot of— you look at the ministers involved in a lot of public service departments, they're very inexperienced and their civil servants_ inexperienced and their civil servants are the same ones that were

acting _ servants are the same ones that were acting with _ servants are the same ones that were acting with the conservatives and their— acting with the conservatives and their natural reaction is for the status— their natural reaction is for the status quo. the civil service doesn't _ status quo. the civil service doesn't particularly like change. the other— doesn't particularly like change. the other problem that i think there is that— the other problem that i think there is that keir— the other problem that i think there is that keir starmer in that speech used _ is that keir starmer in that speech used the _ is that keir starmer in that speech used the word reform i don't know how many— used the word reform i don't know how many time. reform is a positive word _ how many time. reform is a positive word. ~ :, how many time. reform is a positive word. . :, :, how many time. reform is a positive word. ~ . ., ., ., word. what about nigel farage, i don't like his _ word. what about nigel farage, i don't like his reform. _ word. what about nigel farage, i don't like his reform. that - word. what about nigel farage, i don't like his reform. that is - word. what about nigel farage, i don't like his reform. that is a i don't like his reform. that is a different point. _ don't like his reform. that is a different point. but _ don't like his reform. that is a different point. but he - don't like his reform. that is a different point. but he has - don't like his reform. that is a j different point. but he has not don't like his reform. that is a - different point. but he has not said what that _ different point. but he has not said what that means. we haven't had a single _ what that means. we haven't had a single policy. policy. wes streeting is more _ single policy. policy. wes streeting is more capable of of selling message of the difficulty of reform and more — message of the difficulty of reform and more willing to take on the unions — and more willing to take on the unions that keir starmer is. so it will he _ unions that keir starmer is. so it will be interesting to watch if dynamic _ will be interesting to watch if d namic. :, :, will be interesting to watch if dnamic. :, :, will be interesting to watch if dnamic. . . , , dynamic. hannah bardell, this is relevant to _ dynamic. hannah bardell, this is relevant to scotland, _ dynamic. hannah bardell, this is relevant to scotland, no - dynamic. hannah bardell, this is relevant to scotland, no extra i dynamic. hannah bardell, this is - relevant to scotland, no extra money until reform happens. if the reform

comes and the money comes that could mean more for scotland.— mean more for scotland. potentially. if is the operative _ mean more for scotland. potentially. if is the operative word, _ mean more for scotland. potentially. if is the operative word, its _ mean more for scotland. potentially. if is the operative word, its feels - if is the operative word, its feels like a _ if is the operative word, its feels like a continued _ if is the operative word, its feels like a continued austerity - if is the operative word, its feels| like a continued austerity agenda and two — like a continued austerity agenda and two of— like a continued austerity agenda and two of the _ like a continued austerity agenda and two of the key _ like a continued austerity agenda and two of the key things - like a continued austerity agenda and two of the key things that i like a continued austerity agenda i and two of the key things that lord d'arcy— and two of the key things that lord d'arcy said — and two of the key things that lord d'arcy said in— and two of the key things that lord d'arcy said in the _ and two of the key things that lord d'arcy said in the report _ and two of the key things that lord d'arcy said in the report was - and two of the key things that lord d'arcy said in the report was that l d'arcy said in the report was that chronic_ d'arcy said in the report was that chronic underfunding _ d'arcy said in the report was that chronic underfunding and - d'arcy said in the report was that chronic underfunding and lack- d'arcy said in the report was that chronic underfunding and lack ofi chronic underfunding and lack of capital— chronic underfunding and lack of capital spending _ chronic underfunding and lack of capital spending and _ chronic underfunding and lack of capital spending and austerity. chronic underfunding and lack of. capital spending and austerity were two of— capital spending and austerity were two of the — capital spending and austerity were two of the things _ capital spending and austerity were two of the things that _ capital spending and austerity were two of the things that strangled - capital spending and austerity were j two of the things that strangled the nhs for— two of the things that strangled the nhs for two — two of the things that strangled the nhs for two decades. _ two of the things that strangled the nhs for two decades. if— two of the things that strangled the nhs for two decades. if you - two of the things that strangled the nhs for two decades. if you want . nhs for two decades. if you want change _ nhs for two decades. if you want change and — nhs for two decades. if you want change and reform, _ nhs for two decades. if you want change and reform, why - nhs for two decades. if you want change and reform, why would i nhs for two decades. if you want i change and reform, why would you continue _ change and reform, why would you continue with — change and reform, why would you continue with the _ change and reform, why would you continue with the same _ change and reform, why would you continue with the same proposal? i change and reform, why would you i continue with the same proposal? in terms _ continue with the same proposal? in terms of— continue with the same proposal? in terms of unions, _ continue with the same proposal? in terms of unions, this _ continue with the same proposal? in terms of unions, this tough - continue with the same proposal? in terms of unions, this tough guy - continue with the same proposal? in terms of unions, this tough guy acti terms of unions, this tough guy act i'm terms of unions, this tough guy act i'm not— terms of unions, this tough guy act i'm not sure — terms of unions, this tough guy act i'm not sure that— terms of unions, this tough guy act i'm not sure that is— terms of unions, this tough guy act i'm not sure that is the _ terms of unions, this tough guy act i'm not sure that is the right - i'm not sure that is the right approach _ i'm not sure that is the right approach. we _ i'm not sure that is the right approach. we have - i'm not sure that is the right approach. we have taken i i'm not sure that is the right approach. we have taken anj i'm not sure that is the right - approach. we have taken an approach in scotland _ approach. we have taken an approach in scotland where _ approach. we have taken an approach in scotland where we _ approach. we have taken an approach in scotland where we included - approach. we have taken an approach in scotland where we included the - in scotland where we included the unions _ in scotland where we included the unions in — in scotland where we included the unions in discussions _ in scotland where we included the unions in discussions and - in scotland where we included the unions in discussions and we - in scotland where we included the unions in discussions and we havej unions in discussions and we have not lost _ unions in discussions and we have not lost a — unions in discussions and we have not lost a day— unions in discussions and we have not lost a day to— unions in discussions and we have not lost a day to strikes _ unions in discussions and we have not lost a day to strikes in - not lost a day to strikes in scotland. _ not lost a day to strikes in scotland, because - not lost a day to strikes in scotland, because we - not lost a day to strikes inl scotland, because we have not lost a day to strikes in - scotland, because we have invested in public _ scotland, because we have invested in public sector— scotland, because we have invested in public sector pay— scotland, because we have invested in public sector pay and _ scotland, because we have invested in public sector pay and in _ scotland, because we have invested in public sector pay and in engaging | in public sector pay and in engaging and making — in public sector pay and in engaging and making sure _ in public sector pay and in engaging and making sure it— in public sector pay and in engaging and making sure it is— in public sector pay and in engaging and making sure it is there. - in public sector pay and in engaging and making sure it is there.- and making sure it is there. labour would say they _ and making sure it is there. labour would say they have _ and making sure it is there. labour would say they have invested - and making sure it is there. labour would say they have invested in - would say they have invested in public sector pay. taste

would say they have invested in public sector pay.— would say they have invested in public sector pay. we got from blair and brown was _ public sector pay. we got from blair and brown was pfi _ public sector pay. we got from blair and brown was pfi and _ public sector pay. we got from blair and brown was pfi and many - public sector pay. we got from blair and brown was pfi and many of - public sector pay. we got from blair and brown was pfi and many of the | and brown was pfi and many of the structures have failed from that reform. i don't like the idea that there will be a battle between the unions and the government and the health service over these changes. change needs to happen, because the nhs is not working properly. that doesn't mean that the unions don't want change themselves. i know many gps, my wife worked in a community practice, who want change for the gps. they have a live dispute. many of them are exhausted, because they're underfunded and under paid. if they want to have preventative health in the community, you may get co—operation from the nurses unions, who want to move stuff into community practice. it doesn't necessarily mean if you have a

positive agenda for change its will be resisted. it may be welcomed. it may be nhs managers that resist more _ may be nhs managers that resist more gp — may be nhs managers that resist more. gp surgeries, you know a lot about, _ more. gp surgeries, you know a lot about, most— more. gp surgeries, you know a lot about, most of us want to have the same _ about, most of us want to have the same gp_ about, most of us want to have the same gp when we go to see a gp. but so many— same gp when we go to see a gp. but so manyyou_ same gp when we go to see a gp. but so many you get allocated a random one. so many you get allocated a random one that _ so many you get allocated a random one. that can't be good for continuity of care that. isn't something that government ministers should _ something that government ministers should he _ something that government ministers should be controlling. that should be should be controlling. that should he done _ should be controlling. that should be done either within the health service — be done either within the health service or— be done either within the health service or the gp surgeries themselves. it is ridiculous if either— themselves. it is ridiculous if either keir starmer or wes streeting pretend _ either keir starmer or wes streeting pretend any top down reforms, like you talked — pretend any top down reforms, like you talked with the andrew lansley reforms, _ you talked with the andrew lansley reforms, if — you talked with the andrew lansley reforms, if they try and do that, where _ reforms, if they try and do that, where everything comes from the centre _ where everything comes from the centre it — where everything comes from the centre it is— where everything comes from the centre, it is not going to work. how can you _ centre, it is not going to work. how can you have — centre, it is not going to work. how can you have a national health service — can you have a national health service if— can you have a national health service if you don't have national policies — service if you don't have national policies. we service if you don't have national olicies. ~ :, service if you don't have national olicies. ~ ., _, , policies. we had community hospitals. — policies. we had community

hospitals, we _ policies. we had community hospitals, we may _ policies. we had community hospitals, we may have - policies. we had communityl hospitals, we may have large policies. we had community - hospitals, we may have large scale practices with salaried doctor, rather than with a network contract, where doctors find exhausting, because they have to do business meetings after a long day. you have business managers to get large scale efforts in community care going. if that happens, if you transfer resource into communities, into the towns and villages, you may get a lot of co—operation, because people may want to work those hours outside. i may want to work those hours outside. :, �* ., , :, ~ outside. i don't hit the has worked well in scotland, _ outside. i don't hit the has worked well in scotland, community - outside. i don't hit the has worked well in scotland, community care, j outside. i don't hit the has worked i well in scotland, community care, it is not _ well in scotland, community care, it is not perfect, — well in scotland, community care, it is not perfect, but _ well in scotland, community care, it is not perfect, but we _ well in scotland, community care, it is not perfect, but we have - well in scotland, community care, it is not perfect, but we have had - well in scotland, community care, it is not perfect, but we have had a . is not perfect, but we have had a focus _ is not perfect, but we have had a focus on — is not perfect, but we have had a focus on social— is not perfect, but we have had a focus on social care _ is not perfect, but we have had a focus on social care being - is not perfect, but we have had a i focus on social care being delivered tocattv _ focus on social care being delivered locally and — focus on social care being delivered locally and having _ focus on social care being delivered locally and having acute _ focus on social care being delivered locally and having acute treatmentl locally and having acute treatment services, _ locally and having acute treatment services, mv— locally and having acute treatment services, my area _ locally and having acute treatment services, my area benefit - locally and having acute treatment services, my area benefit from - locally and having acute treatment services, my area benefit from anl services, my area benefit from an snp government— services, my area benefit from an snp government doing _ services, my area benefit from an snp government doing that. - services, my area benefit from an snp government doing that. we i services, my area benefit from an - snp government doing that. we need to be able _ snp government doing that. we need to be able to — snp government doing that. we need to be able to share _ snp government doing that. we need to be able to share ideas— snp government doing that. we need to be able to share ideas and - snp government doing that. we need to be able to share ideas and there i to be able to share ideas and there are some _ to be able to share ideas and there are some good _ to be able to share ideas and there are some good things— to be able to share ideas and there are some good things in— to be able to share ideas and there are some good things in the -

to be able to share ideas and there are some good things in the reportj are some good things in the report in lord _ are some good things in the report in lord darzi's_ are some good things in the report in lord darzi's report. _ are some good things in the report in lord darzi's report. there - are some good things in the report in lord darzi's report. there is - are some good things in the report in lord darzi's report. there is the| in lord darzi's report. there is the digitisation— in lord darzi's report. there is the digitisation stuff— in lord darzi's report. there is the digitisation stuff is _ in lord darzi's report. there is the digitisation stuff is interesting, . digitisation stuff is interesting, but people _ digitisation stuff is interesting, but people want _ digitisation stuff is interesting, but people want to _ digitisation stuff is interesting, but people want to speak- digitisation stuff is interesting, but people want to speak to i digitisation stuff is interesting, but people want to speak to a i digitisation stuff is interesting, - but people want to speak to a person and he _ but people want to speak to a person and he cared — but people want to speak to a person and be cared for— but people want to speak to a person and be cared for a _ but people want to speak to a person and be cared for a person. _ and be cared for a person. technotogv_ and be cared for a person. technology is— and be cared for a person. technology is important, i and be cared for a person. . technology is important, but and be cared for a person. - technology is important, but that that delivery— technology is important, but that that delivery of— technology is important, but that that delivery of care, _ technology is important, but that that delivery of care, one - technology is important, but that that delivery of care, one in - technology is important, but that that delivery of care, one in fourl that delivery of care, one in four people _ that delivery of care, one in four people in— that delivery of care, one in four people in hospital— that delivery of care, one in four people in hospital in _ that delivery of care, one in four people in hospital in england, i that delivery of care, one in four. people in hospital in england, are ready— people in hospital in england, are ready to _ people in hospital in england, are ready to go — people in hospital in england, are ready to go home, _ people in hospital in england, are ready to go home, but _ people in hospital in england, are ready to go home, but they - people in hospital in england, arej ready to go home, but they can't, because _ ready to go home, but they can't, because there _ ready to go home, but they can't, because there is _ ready to go home, but they can't, because there is not _ ready to go home, but they can't, because there is not an— ready to go home, but they can't, i because there is not an investment and there — because there is not an investment and there is — because there is not an investment and there is no _ because there is not an investment and there is no detail— because there is not an investment and there is no detail about - because there is not an investment and there is no detail about sociall and there is no detail about social care. i'm not promoting the idea that there will be a fight, i'm just looking at... hot that there will be a fight, i'm 'ust looking at. . .fi that there will be a fight, i'm just looking at. . ._ i'm . that there will be a fight, i'm just| looking at..._ i'm not looking at... not 'ust you. i'm not doino looking at... not 'ust you. i'm not doin: it. looking at... not 'ust you. i'm not doing it. in — looking at... notjust you. i'm not doing it. i'm looking _ looking at... notjust you. i'm not doing it. i'm looking at _ looking at... notjust you. i'm not i doing it. i'm looking at governments over years gone by of all political colours and when reform is mentioned, there are always battles. the bma have tried to fight every single reform that a labour or conservative government has made. no doubt they will have their reasons. but it is rare that they will ever look at embracing reform. without them there — look at embracing reform. without them there would _ look at embracing reform. without them there would be _ look at embracing reform. without them there would be no _ look at embracing reform. without

them there would be no nhs. - look at embracing reform. without them there would be no nhs. i - them there would be no nhs. thought them there would be no nhs. i thought the bma stuff was quite positive — thought the bma stuff was quite -ositive. ., , thought the bma stuff was quite -ositive. . , ., . ., positive. there was that clear messa . e positive. there was that clear message for _ positive. there was that clear message for the _ positive. there was that clear message for the bma. - positive. there was that clearj message for the bma. earlier positive. there was that clear - message for the bma. earlier the prime minister talked to the trade union congress. the biggest levelling up of workers' rights in a generation. as part of that new deal, let me again be crystal clear, we will repeal the 2016 trade union act, get rid of minimum service level legislation, end the cheap and vindictive attacks on this movement and turn the page on politics once and for all. i'm sure those words were welcome? we are looking forward to public ownership of the railways. we hope it is delivered in full. xfour ownership of the railways. we hope it is delivered in full.— it is delivered in full. your union is still in dispute _ it is delivered in full. your union is still in dispute over— it is delivered in full. your union is still in dispute over pay, - it is delivered in full. your union | is still in dispute over pay, where are you up to? hide is still in dispute over pay, where are you up to?— is still in dispute over pay, where are you up to? we are in dialogue all of the time _

are you up to? we are in dialogue all of the time with _ are you up to? we are in dialogue all of the time with the _ are you up to? we are in dialogue i all of the time with the department for transport. we have another dispute in the mod. we are waiting for proposals, it takes a high 5 a s a while to get the mandates. we are optimistic. a while to get the mandates. we are 0 otimistic. :, , :, ~' a while to get the mandates. we are 0 otimistic. . , :, ,, ., optimistic. have you delinked a new oa deal optimistic. have you delinked a new pay deal from _ optimistic. have you delinked a new pay deal from efficiency _ optimistic. have you delinked a new pay deal from efficiency savings. i pay deal from efficiency savings. there was no efficiency savings that the tories were putting forward. it will be an unconditional offer and we will talk about the future of the rail and transport system. but what the tories were proposing just betrayed their lack of knowledge of thousand run businesses and transport —— how to run businesses and transport systems. it was not what the railway managers wanted, it was a load of none sense cooked up by grant shapps. igiigfiiiii was a load of none sense cooked up by grant shapps— by grant shapps. will bit sorted out? we will — by grant shapps. will bit sorted out? we will get _ by grant shapps. will bit sorted out? we will get gb _ by grant shapps. will bit sorted out? we will get gb r - by grant shapps. will bit sorted out? we will get gb r and - by grant shapps. will bit sorted l out? we will get gb r and change by grant shapps. will bit sorted - out? we will get gb r and change the

wa the out? we will get gb r and change the way the railways _ out? we will get gb r and change the way the railways are _ out? we will get gb r and change the way the railways are run _ out? we will get gb r and change the way the railways are run and - out? we will get gb r and change the way the railways are run and get - out? we will get gb r and change the way the railways are run and get rid . way the railways are run and get rid of inefficiencies of privatisation and the lawyers and bean counters and the lawyers and bean counters and do stuff about ticketing and the way disabled people get access and we will have a better system that wen now. == we will have a better system that wen now. :, we will have a better system that wen now. . ., :, wen now. -- than we have now. grangemouth — wen now. -- than we have now. grangemouth is _ wen now. -- than we have now. grangemouth is to _ wen now. -- than we have now. grangemouth is to close - wen now. -- than we have now. grangemouth is to close with i wen now. -- than we have now. | grangemouth is to close with the loss of 400 jobs. it is going to be converted the site into a terminal to import petrol and diesel. there is a joint investment plan from the scottish and uk government to secure a future for the system. the snp leader at westminster said it is a reality when warm words about the green transition meet the fiscal reality and this is not a just transition. do you think we will see more of this?

it's hard to say but he is spot on, it's hard to say but he is spot on, i spent _ it's hard to say but he is spot on, i spent three years working in the repair— i spent three years working in the repair and — i spent three years working in the repairand maintenance i spent three years working in the repair and maintenance industry for the oil— repair and maintenance industry for the oil and — repair and maintenance industry for the oil and gas sector and we have some _ the oil and gas sector and we have some of— the oil and gas sector and we have some of the — the oil and gas sector and we have some of the most talented if not the most talented workforce in the road for the _ most talented workforce in the road for the energy sector in the north—east and across scotland. and those _ north—east and across scotland. and those jobs. — north—east and across scotland. and those jobs, we owe it to those people — those jobs, we owe it to those people, to the industry and to our future _ people, to the industry and to our future to— people, to the industry and to our future to secure the future of grangemouth and it is a betrayal. we don't _ grangemouth and it is a betrayal. we don't have _ grangemouth and it is a betrayal. we don't have a — grangemouth and it is a betrayal. we don't have a sovereign wealth fund like norway have, something the snp have long _ like norway have, something the snp have long argued for, and if we had had that— have long argued for, and if we had had that and had not had to send £400 _ had that and had not had to send £400 billion of our oil and gas money— £400 billion of our oil and gas money south of the border to be misspent — money south of the border to be misspent on illegal wars than we might— misspent on illegal wars than we might have had the money to invest in the _ might have had the money to invest in the workforce, in grangemouth. and i_ in the workforce, in grangemouth. and i hope. — in the workforce, in grangemouth. and i hope, it's good to see the scottish— and i hope, it's good to see the scottish and uk governments working together, _ scottish and uk governments working together, i_ scottish and uk governments working together, i have friends who live in grangemouth, friends whose partners may lose _ grangemouth, friends whose partners may lose theirjobs, it would just be devastating for those people and their lives, — be devastating for those people and their lives, it will be the supply chain— their lives, it will be the supply chain and — their lives, it will be the supply

chain and the skills we might lose. had labour— chain and the skills we might lose. had labour not roll back on their £20 billion investment per year into the green transition, maybe we would not have seen this, 400 people on the scrapheap today, do you think? i think in a way the sort of thing is inevitable — think in a way the sort of thing is inevitable and _ think in a way the sort of thing is inevitable and there _ think in a way the sort of thing is inevitable and there may- think in a way the sort of thing is inevitable and there may be - think in a way the sort of thing isl inevitable and there may be more of it. i inevitable and there may be more of it i was _ inevitable and there may be more of it i was in _ inevitable and there may be more of it. i was in aberdeen— inevitable and there may be more of it. i was in aberdeen not— inevitable and there may be more of it. i was in aberdeen not long - inevitable and there may be more of it. i was in aberdeen not long ago i it. i was in aberdeen not long ago and saying — it. i was in aberdeen not long ago and saying to _ it. i was in aberdeen not long ago and saying to a _ it. i was in aberdeen not long ago and saying to a taxi _ it. i was in aberdeen not long ago and saying to a taxi driver, - it. i was in aberdeen not long ago and saying to a taxi driver, what i and saying to a taxi driver, what do you think— and saying to a taxi driver, what do you think a — and saying to a taxi driver, what do you think a labour— and saying to a taxi driver, what do you think a labour government - and saying to a taxi driver, what do i you think a labour government means for aberdeen— you think a labour government means for aberdeen and _ you think a labour government means for aberdeen and he _ you think a labour government means for aberdeen and he just _ you think a labour government means for aberdeen and he just looked - for aberdeen and he just looked round _ for aberdeen and he just looked round and — for aberdeen and he just looked round and said, _ for aberdeen and he just looked round and said, aberdeen - for aberdeen and he just looked round and said, aberdeen will. for aberdeen and he just looked - round and said, aberdeen will be... and i_ round and said, aberdeen will be... and i can't— round and said, aberdeen will be... and i can't use _ round and said, aberdeen will be... and i can't use the _ round and said, aberdeen will be... and i can't use the word _ round and said, aberdeen will be... and i can't use the word he - round and said, aberdeen will be... and i can't use the word he said - round and said, aberdeen will be... and i can't use the word he said on| and i can't use the word he said on this programme _ and i can't use the word he said on this programme-— and i can't use the word he said on this programme. aberdeen is screwed. yeah. this programme. aberdeen is screwed. yeah- yeah- — this programme. aberdeen is screwed. yeah. yeah. but _ this programme. aberdeen is screwed. yeah. yeah. but it's _ this programme. aberdeen is screwed. yeah. yeah. but it's not _ this programme. aberdeen is screwed. yeah. yeah. but it's not inevitable. - yeah. yeah. but it's not inevitable. i think it yeah. yeah. but it's not inevitable. i think it is — yeah. yeah. but it's not inevitable. l think it is if— yeah. yeah. but it's not inevitable. i think it is if they _ yeah. yeah. but it's not inevitable. i think it is if they pursue _ yeah. yeah. but it's not inevitable. i think it is if they pursue this - i think it is if they pursue this policy— i think it is if they pursue this policy of— i think it is if they pursue this policy of effectively _ policy of effectively decommissioning l policy of effectively l decommissioning the policy of effectively - decommissioning the north policy of effectively _ decommissioning the north sea, which ithink— decommissioning the north sea, which i think is— decommissioning the north sea, which i think is absolutely— decommissioning the north sea, which i think is absolutely mad. _ decommissioning the north sea, which i think is absolutely mad. because - i think is absolutely mad. because we are _ i think is absolutely mad. because we are going — i think is absolutely mad. because we are going to— i think is absolutely mad. because we are going to need _ i think is absolutely mad. because we are going to need oil— i think is absolutely mad. because we are going to need oil and - i think is absolutely mad. because we are going to need oil and gas. we are going to need oil and gas going _ we are going to need oil and gas going into — we are going to need oil and gas going into the _ we are going to need oil and gas going into the 20 _ we are going to need oil and gas going into the 20 50s, _ we are going to need oil and gas going into the 20 50s, not - we are going to need oil and gas going into the 20 50s, notjustl we are going to need oil and gas. going into the 20 50s, notjust over the next _ going into the 20 50s, notjust over the next 20 — going into the 20 50s, notjust over the next 20 years, _ going into the 20 50s, notjust over the next 20 years, and _ going into the 20 50s, notjust over the next 20 years, and to _ going into the 20 50s, notjust over the next 20 years, and to give - going into the 20 50s, notjust over the next 20 years, and to give the i the next 20 years, and to give the signal— the next 20 years, and to give the signal that— the next 20 years, and to give the signal that effectively— the next 20 years, and to give the signal that effectively they - the next 20 years, and to give the signal that effectively they want i the next 20 years, and to give the | signal that effectively they want to shut down— signal that effectively they want to shut down the _ signal that effectively they want to shut down the oil— signal that effectively they want to shut down the oil and _ signal that effectively they want to shut down the oil and gas- signal that effectively they want to shut down the oil and gas industry| shut down the oil and gas industry in the _ shut down the oil and gas industry in the north— shut down the oil and gas industry in the north sea, _ shut down the oil and gas industry in the north sea, there _ shut down the oil and gas industry in the north sea, there will- shut down the oil and gas industry in the north sea, there will be - in the north sea, there will be investment— in the north sea, there will be investment consequences. - in the north sea, there will be investment consequences. we in the north sea, there will be investment consequences. we have got offshore energy — investment consequences. we have got offshore energy and _ investment consequences. we have got offshore energy and maritime _

investment consequences. we have gotj offshore energy and maritime members affected by decommissioning, we are in with ed miliband, talking about the just transition, my fear is that it's very late and some of the people talking about it don't really understand the way engineering projects work. so we can't even get skilled workers who work in offshore now recognised for skills on wind farms, for instance. and there's a real problem that the service and the people that run these authorities don't understand what needs to be done. so stephen flynn is right that it has come up against the cold reality and the mines and steel workers and other working—class communities have suffered this in the past. we don't want that going forward, so there must be emergency measures to make sure that we start manufacturing part of the green revolution, the green change, and the £20 billion per year project should not have been dropped —— £28 billion per year. that was a real test over how we're going to transform britain going forward, re—skill people and reorientate them to new areas of the economy. and it's going to be too

slow, ifear. economy. and it's going to be too slow. lfear-_ slow, i fear. back with you soon, thank you _ slow, i fear. back with you soon, thank you for— slow, i fear. back with you soon, thank you for now. _ slow, i fear. back with you soon, thank you for now. we _ slow, i fear. back with you soon, thank you for now. we will- slow, i fear. back with you soon, thank you for now. we will from | slow, i fear. back with you soon, - thank you for now. we will from john legend. american singer, songwriter, pianist, record producer, and actor. he has told newsnight that donald trump is playing to "bigotry, racism and xenophobia" over his claims that immmigrants are eating the pets of the residents of springfield, ohio. legend is a high profile democrat and, like taylor swift, has endorsed kamala harris. in an exclusive interview with us, legend gives his view on why he thinks some black americans are supporting mr trump — and his views on elon musk. first, though, he explained why abortion rights, which are, as you know, a huge election issue in this presidential race, are personal to him and his wife chrissy teigen. well, we've always believed that it was important for women and their families and their doctors to make these intimate reproductive decisions that they have to make, decisions that are going to affect their own bodies and their own health and sometimes their survival.

and for our family it became particularly poignant when we dealt with a miscarriage. we were losing our pregnancy, a pregnancy we wanted, a baby we wanted. we were losing him. and we had to have abortion care to resolve that, to make sure that chrissy didn't die. she was bleeding profusely, and her life needed to be saved. and we had to have abortion care to do that. and having that experience really informed us about the range of reasons that people may need an abortion and how intrusive it would be for the government to have any say in that kind of conversation and that decision. could you imagine us going through the tragedy of losing a pregnancy, the physical duress that chrissy was going through to resolve that, and having to deal with at the same time legal red tape out of concern

that the doctors might get arrested or that she might get arrested for doing what they needed to do to preserve her life? it's unconscionable that we would put any woman through that, and that is literally happening right now in texas and other states around the country that have taken away women's right to abortion. in that first tv debate between trump and harris, mr trump refused to rule out a nationwide abortion ban. he says he has given people what they want by leaving the decision to individual states. in your view, is that people want? it's clear that's not what people wanted. it was clear that, before roe versus wade was overturned, that the majority of the country believed it shouldn't have been overturned. and especially since it's been overturned, there's even been more

support for abortion rights, because people see the consequences of it being overturned and see the impact it has had on people's lives. of course people didn't want that. and he says it's better because it's back in the states, but that means texas has different rules than new york and california, and this is crazy. like, we should not be doing this in any state. and so throwing it back to the states is no consolation when a huge percentage of the population are in states with really oppressive rules on this. i'm going to quote your wife chrissy�*s own words. she said, "let's call it what it is. i had an abortion to save my life for a baby that had absolutely no chance. " going public with something so intimate, so personal, so sensitive, so upsetting,

how difficult a decision was that? i am proud of her because she took her own trauma and her own pain and turned it into... ..a way of informing her own advocacy and her own way of fighting for change in the country. i want to ask you more about donald trump, if i may. he has said that he has done more for black people... he laughs. ..than any president... he laughs. ..since lincoln. uh—huh. you're laughing. he's delusional. and i think we saw his delusion on display in the debate. some of the conspiracy theories that... i mean, i definitely want to ask you about that in a moment. yes. but on this, in an interview he said he has many black friends, he says he understands black people because he feels like them, that he too has been discriminated against. he's been given a champion of black america award... he laughs.

..from the black conservative association. you're laughing at everything that i'm putting back to you. this is... is this not hilarious? i'm surprised you're not laughing too! he says all that means he cannot be racist. do you agree? well, i think his actions have shown that it's quite in his character to be racist. from keeping black people out of his apartment, to the birther conspiracy lie that he was spreading about our first black president, to the nonsense he was saying about kamala harris not being black until she was, to even equating his own felony convictions with him being accepted in the black community, as if that's the only characterisation that would make him have something in common with the black community, is racist in itself. and then it culminated in him

characterising the haitian immigrants that live in my hometown, springfield, ohio, who have come there to work and experience the american dream and are contributing to our community and to our society, he spread vicious rumours about them eating cats and dogs, playing to bigotry, racism and xenophobia, like he always does. they're eating the dogs. the people that came in, they're eating the cats. they're eating... ..they're eating the pets of the people that live there. it's clear that he has always believed in white supremacy and believed that black and brown people are inferior. and he has used that belief in his political message to divide the country. the mayor, rob rue, said, "we are focusing on x and facebook posts, and we are trying to squash

these rumours about immigrants eating cats and dogs. but it takes a lot of time to get the truth back." when you hear the kind of things that have been said during this presidential campaign, how much is there an issue with truth? and if there is a big issue, do you worry about getting it back? i do think there is an issue with truth and, you know, it's exacerbated when the ceo, when the head of x is a purveyor of misinformation and disinformation. you think elon musk is? oh, he certainly is. i mean, i don't think he is, it's just a fact. he is a purveyor of disinformation and misinformation, spreads false rumours all the time. he says that's freedom of speech. and he's... well, he's. .. he's a freedom of speech purist. he also claims to be someone who believes in the truth and he spreads false rumours all the time. # l-o-v-e # love, it's easy to spell # and if you know it for yourself #.

you're here in the uk to promote an album of lullabies and singalongs aimed at children. yeah. it's called my favourite dream. and alongside some classics like you are my sunshine, which i used to sing to my boys, there are nine new songs by you. were these inspired by your own children? absolutely. the songs, i wrote them at home, the first time i ever wrote an album at home, in our piano room there. and i thought, very specifically, about the messages that we like to give to our kids. i wrote a list down, when i was thinking about what i wanted to write about, of themes and messages that we like to give to our kids, to inspire them, to comfort them, to motivate them. and i wrote the songs based on those themes that i wrote down, and it was directly inspired by the conversations we have with our kids. john legend, thank you very much for talking to newsnight and our audience.

thank you. thank you so much, what a pleasure. thank you. in the full interview, it is longer, we recorded longer than that, will be on the iplayer tomorrow. hannah, what do you want to say? it’s a what do you want to say? it's a remarkable _ what do you want to say? it's a remarkable interview _ what do you want to say? it's a remarkable interview for - what do you want to say? it's a remarkable interview for him i what do you want to say? it's a l remarkable interview for him and what do you want to say? it's a remarkable interview for him and his wife, _ remarkable interview for him and his wife to— remarkable interview for him and his wife, to speak so publicly about something so personal, but the question— something so personal, but the question remains, how many more women _ question remains, how many more women and — question remains, how many more women and families need to speak out about— women and families need to speak out about the _ women and families need to speak out about the experience of abortion care, _ about the experience of abortion care or— about the experience of abortion care, or lack of abortion care, before — care, or lack of abortion care, before we _ care, or lack of abortion care, before we come to terms with the fact that _ before we come to terms with the fact that this is something we need? and it _ fact that this is something we need? and it wasn't so long ago that in northern— and it wasn't so long ago that in northern ireland and the republic that women were facing that and having _ that women were facing that and having to — that women were facing that and having to travel. and we still have challenges here in the uk, and it has had — challenges here in the uk, and it has had a — challenges here in the uk, and it has had a knock—on impact in terms of ivf— has had a knock—on impact in terms of ni and _ has had a knock—on impact in terms of ivf and fertility treatment as well because of the classification of embryos in the us, and that is devastating for families who want to have children as well. so i think donald — have children as well. so i think donald trump is a direct threat to women's — donald trump is a direct threat to women's rights and the rights of their— women's rights and the rights of their health. 335 women's rights and the rights of their health.—

their health. as a conservative, could you _ their health. as a conservative, could you support _ their health. as a conservative, could you support donald - their health. as a conservative, l could you support donald trump? their health. as a conservative, - could you support donald trump? no. i mean, could you support donald trump? no. i mean. it's — could you support donald trump? no. i mean, it's unthinkable to me that the republican— i mean, it's unthinkable to me that the republican party, _ i mean, it's unthinkable to me that the republican party, which- i mean, it's unthinkable to me that the republican party, which i- the republican party, which i supported _ the republican party, which i supported for— the republican party, which i supported for many, - the republican party, which i supported for many, many. the republican party, which i- supported for many, many years, ronald _ supported for many, many years, ronald reagan _ supported for many, many years, ronald reagan is _ supported for many, many years, ronald reagan is one _ supported for many, many years, ronald reagan is one of- supported for many, many years, ronald reagan is one of my- supported for many, many years, i ronald reagan is one of my political heroes. _ ronald reagan is one of my political heroes. i_ ronald reagan is one of my political heroes, i thought _ ronald reagan is one of my political heroes, i thought george _ ronald reagan is one of my political heroes, i thought george bush- ronald reagan is one of my political heroes, i thought george bush the i heroes, i thought george bush the first was— heroes, i thought george bush the first was by— heroes, i thought george bush the first was by large _ heroes, i thought george bush the first was by large and _ heroes, i thought george bush the first was by large and excellent - first was by large and excellent president. _ first was by large and excellent president, but— first was by large and excellent president, but in— first was by large and excellent president, but in the _ first was by large and excellent president, but in the last - first was by large and excellent president, but in the last 20 i first was by large and excellent. president, but in the last 20 years they have — president, but in the last 20 years they have gone _ president, but in the last 20 years they have gone from _ president, but in the last 20 years they have gone from being - president, but in the last 20 years they have gone from being a - they have gone from being a mainstream _ they have gone from being a mainstream political- they have gone from being a mainstream political party i they have gone from being a| mainstream political party to they have gone from being a i mainstream political party to a quasi — mainstream political party to a quasi religious— mainstream political party to a quasi religious sect _ mainstream political party to a quasi religious sect which - mainstream political party to a i quasi religious sect which leads mainstream political party to a . quasi religious sect which leads to policies _ quasi religious sect which leads to policies like — quasi religious sect which leads to policies like you _ quasi religious sect which leads to policies like you have _ quasi religious sect which leads to policies like you have just - policies like you have just articulated. _ policies like you have just articulated. i— policies like you have just articulated. i can't- policies like you have just articulated. i can't see i policies like you have just. articulated. i can't see how policies like you have just - articulated. i can't see how any mainstream _ articulated. ican't see how any mainstream british— articulated. i can't see how anyl mainstream british conservative could _ mainstream british conservative could look — mainstream british conservative could look themselves - mainstream british conservative could look themselves in - mainstream british conservative could look themselves in the - mainstream british conservative . could look themselves in the mirror and support— could look themselves in the mirror and support among _ could look themselves in the mirror and support among my— could look themselves in the mirror and support among my donald - could look themselves in the mirror. and support among my donald trump. robert _ and support among my donald trump. robert jenrick. — and support among my donald trump. robertjenrick, one _ and support among my donald trump. robertjenrick, one of— and support among my donald trump. robert jenrick, one of the _ robertjenrick, one of the favourites to be the next leader of the tory party, said he wants donald trump to win. you the tory party, said he wants donald trump to win-— trump to win. you have 'ust given me m first trump to win. you have 'ust given me my first question _ trump to win. you have 'ust given me my first question for — trump to win. you have just given me my first question for my _ trump to win. you have just given me my first question for my interview - my first question for my interview with him — my first question for my interview with him hekt— my first question for my interview with him next week! _ my first question for my interview with him next week!— my first question for my interview with him next week! you're welcome! that portrays — with him next week! you're welcome! that portrays what _ with him next week! you're welcome! that portrays what is _ with him next week! you're welcome! that portrays what is wrong _ with him next week! you're welcome! that portrays what is wrong with - with him next week! you're welcome! that portrays what is wrong with the i that portrays what is wrong with the conservative party these days, i don't see how any traditional conservative that could support somebody like donald trump, he is a potential maniac as far as i'm concerned. potential maniac as far as i'm concerned-— potential maniac as far as i'm concerned. ,, ., concerned. keir starmer, the prime minister, concerned. keir starmer, the prime minister. on — concerned. keir starmer, the prime minister, on his— concerned. keir starmer, the prime minister, on his way _ concerned. keir starmer, the prime minister, on his way to _ concerned. keir starmer, the prime minister, on his way to the - concerned. keir starmer, the prime minister, on his way to the states i minister, on his way to the states to meet the current president tomorrow, and he has been talking on the plane.

tomorrow, and he has been talking on the laone. :. v tomorrow, and he has been talking on the laone. . �*, the plane. that's right, in the last few minutes _ the plane. that's right, in the last few minutes downing _ the plane. that's right, in the last few minutes downing street - the plane. that's right, in the last few minutes downing street has i few minutes downing street has announced the prime minister has arrived _ announced the prime minister has arrived in — announced the prime minister has arrived in washington and the big question— arrived in washington and the big question is, will the united states .ive question is, will the united states give permission for uk storm shadow missiles _ give permission for uk storm shadow missiles to— give permission for uk storm shadow missiles to be used by ukraine in russian — missiles to be used by ukraine in russian territory? the prime minster has asked _ russian territory? the prime minster has asked about, can we help improve _ has asked about, can we help improve, do more for ukrainian self defence _ improve, do more for ukrainian self defence, and he said, we are having further— defence, and he said, we are having further discussions. and then he saidi _ further discussions. and then he said, russia started this conflict and can— said, russia started this conflict and can end this conflict straightaway, and further set, we don't _ straightaway, and further set, we don't seek— straightaway, and further set, we don't seek any conflict with russia but ukraine does have the right to self defence. gn but ukraine does have the right to self defence.— but ukraine does have the right to self defence. on ukraine cast, the busy podcast. _ self defence. on ukraine cast, the busy podcast. we _ self defence. on ukraine cast, the busy podcast, we had _ self defence. on ukraine cast, the busy podcast, we had an - self defence. on ukraine cast, the busy podcast, we had an interview with former defence secretary last week, ben wallace saying that permission to use storm shadow missiles in russian territory should be given by the west to ukraine. let's have a look at tomorrow's front pages, they reflect a little of what nick was saying, the comments keir starmer was saying on the plane to the states, the times saying this deal means war, that warning from president putin, if the

us and britain give permission then