far, but she was obviously having too much fun out there and didn't want to bring herself back. so unfortunately, we did have to bring bring her back. we can'tjust leave capybaras out in the wild, as much as i'm sure we'd all love that. so yeah, we're very pleased that she's now back here. the story of cinnamon the escapee has captured people's imagination. but for now, the zoo wants her to stay out of the public eye so she can recuperate. while cinnamon is resting from her ordeal in the enclosure behind me, the zoo says she'll be checked over by vets in the coming days and reintroduced to the public next weekend. meanwhile, an extra gate is being erected around cinnamon's pen to make sure there's no repeat of the great escape. bob hockenhull, bbc news, shropshire. this programme continues on bbc one.

consumer confidence has slumped. is the doom and gloom labour is selling sapping all enthusiasm for the british economy? the government's critics say, it is time for a new message? reform say they will transform the party to put nigel farage in number 10. it's a big pledge for a party with five mps. how are they going to do it?

good evening and welcome to newsnight — the home of insight and inteviews. on our panel tonight, the prominent labour donor and champion of green energy dale vince, the former brexit party mep, now talk presenter, alex phillips. and the uk director of more in common — luke tryl. for weeks now the government has been telling us the country's finances are in a right old mess. prepare yourself for some pain, said the prime minister. well, it seems the country has taken him at his word. consumer sentiment, which powers the economy, has dropped like a stone in september. we are less willing to spend, which means small and medium sized businesses are not investing either. even the prime minister announced today he would not be buying any new clothes — for different reasons! mohamed el—erian is the chief economic adviser to the asset manager allianz

and president of queens�* college cambridge. why is consumer sentiment are so closely tracked by economists? it measures our willingness to do something so whether you spend as a function of are you able and willing to spend? if you willingness goes down then you will not spend even though you are able to and that is a concern people have. it is though you are able to and that is a concern people have.— concern people have. it is obvious to everybody _ concern people have. it is obvious to everybody that _ concern people have. it is obvious to everybody that if _ concern people have. it is obvious to everybody that if people - concern people have. it is obvious to everybody that if people are . concern people have. it is obvious| to everybody that if people are not spending then you cannot grow the economy, so has labour's message backfired? it economy, so has labour's message backfired? , ., ., backfired? it is important to realise that _ backfired? it is important to realise that labour- backfired? it is important to realise that labour is - backfired? it is important to realise that labour is being | backfired? it is important to - realise that labour is being honest in what it is saying, dead honest. and it is being cautious and how it thinks about its fiscal prospects. so it is ironic that it is being blamed for undermining the economy. the problem is not the messaging as much as that it is not being accompanied by a couple of things. if you are going to tell someone

you're going on a fickle journey, sell the destination and don'tjust focus on the journey. and if you focus on the journey. and if you focus on the journey, don't do it in a piecemeal manner, do not announce one measure here and another there are, but in a package so people understand how they are being treated holistically to the problem with the given occasion is not honesty, not caution, it is too piecemeal and lacks the overall framing of orwe piecemeal and lacks the overall framing of or we are going to and why we are going through this difficult time. it why we are going through this difficult time.— why we are going through this difficult time. it is because the destination _ difficult time. it is because the destination is _ difficult time. it is because the destination is better. - difficult time. it is because the destination is better. is - difficult time. it is because the destination is better. is a - difficult time. it is because the | destination is better. is a direct link between the way the message has been sold and the downturn we have seenin been sold and the downturn we have seen in consumer sentiment this month? ~ . . ., ., , .,, ., month? according to the people who do these surveys, _ month? according to the people who do these surveys, they _ month? according to the people who do these surveys, they say _ month? according to the people who do these surveys, they say the - month? according to the people who do these surveys, they say the main | do these surveys, they say the main reason why we have seen the shock drop to levels last seen last january, we have raised all of the games in one month, is because of the notion of a painful budget and when they hear that they think of

two things, higher taxes and more austerity on the spending side and that makes people more cautious so you have to explain that we will haveit you have to explain that we will have it painful but with a purpose. the same way gordon brown in 97 explained that we are prudent with the purpose. and the purpose is a better outcome in terms of more inclusive growth and more durable growth that is sustainable. the treasury ministerjames murray did give a response to this today. let us listen to what the government position is on this. and i think everyone across britain knowsjust how bad the inheritance was, and obviously, since we got into office, we've had it confirmed that things are even worse than we thought. we have a £22 billion black hole, the spending pressures we are going to have to address in the budget. you speak to focus groups a lot. has labour ever done the fear factor? there is a risk they might have, what _ there is a risk they might have, what is — there is a risk they might have, what is striking with conversations from _ what is striking with conversations

from the _ what is striking with conversations from the public in recent weeks as people _ from the public in recent weeks as pe0ple say— from the public in recent weeks as people say things like i am genuine read about— people say things like i am genuine read about what she will say in october — read about what she will say in october and someone last night said i am scared — october and someone last night said i am scared about it as well. one thing _ i am scared about it as well. one thing you — i am scared about it as well. one thing you have to remember is for the public— thing you have to remember is for the public this is not the first time — the public this is not the first time that— the public this is not the first time that they have been told they have to _ time that they have been told they have to make difficult decisions. they— have to make difficult decisions. they basically have been hearing that message since 2008. after the financial_ that message since 2008. after the financial crash, then after brexit and after— financial crash, then after brexit and after the pandemic and you are getting _ and after the pandemic and you are getting it _ and after the pandemic and you are getting it again now and what they need to— getting it again now and what they need to hear, they do not want boosterism, they know things are difficult _ boosterism, they know things are difficult but they need to hear that there _ difficult but they need to hear that there will— difficult but they need to hear that there will be tough decisions but at there will be tough decisions but at the end _ there will be tough decisions but at the end of— there will be tough decisions but at the end of it things are going to be hetter~ _ the end of it things are going to be better. that is what the rhetoric has messed, it is all of the gloom and none — has messed, it is all of the gloom and none of the, what does it look like on _ and none of the, what does it look like on the — and none of the, what does it look like on the other side? what does britain _ like on the other side? what does britain look like? in missing that they are — britain look like? in missing that they are risking instilling this mode — they are risking instilling this mode of— they are risking instilling this mode of britain being horrible and

that is_ mode of britain being horrible and that is dangerous. the}r mode of britain being horrible and that is dangerous.— that is dangerous. they have not announced _ that is dangerous. they have not announced an _ that is dangerous. they have not announced an end _ that is dangerous. they have not announced an end to _ that is dangerous. they have not announced an end to the - that is dangerous. they have not announced an end to the winterl that is dangerous. they have not - announced an end to the winter fuel payment, —— they have announced. that will have an effect on disposable income? that will have an effect on disosable income? ~ , ,., , ., disposable income? absolutely and focus grouns _ disposable income? absolutely and focus groups will _ disposable income? absolutely and focus groups will cite _ disposable income? absolutely and focus groups will cite that, - disposable income? absolutely and focus groups will cite that, the - focus groups will cite that, the stuff _ focus groups will cite that, the stuff they said was easy that they start with — stuff they said was easy that they start with is taking money from pensioners, what does a really bad stuff in _ pensioners, what does a really bad stuff in the — pensioners, what does a really bad stuff in the budget look like? i would — stuff in the budget look like? i would agree, they made a big mistake announcing _ would agree, they made a big mistake announcing that as a stand—alone measure — announcing that as a stand—alone measure because that has become the defining _ measure because that has become the defining announcement of this government, taking away the winter fuel allowance. government, taking away the winter fuelallowance. if government, taking away the winter fuel allowance. if they had done that wrapped up in the budget then things— that wrapped up in the budget then things might be better. as mohammed sa s, ou things might be better. as mohammed says. you have — things might be better. as mohammed says. you have to _ things might be better. as mohammed says, you have to look _ things might be better. as mohammed says, you have to look at _ things might be better. as mohammed says, you have to look at the _ says, you have to look at the context in which they are operating and we find out today that national debt is 100% of economic output, the highest level since the 1960s and we have spent £6 billion last month servicing debt payments. if you extrapolate that over the year at the same interest rate, but has 40%

of what we spend on health. it is a big amount. do you accept that there does have to be this pain for the longer—term gains? i does have to be this pain for the longer-term gains?— longer-term gains? i am a broadcaster _ longer-term gains? i am a broadcaster and _ longer-term gains? i am a broadcaster and politician l longer-term gains? i am a i broadcaster and politician but longer-term gains? i am a - broadcaster and politician but what i broadcaster and politician but what i would _ broadcaster and politician but what i would say — broadcaster and politician but what i would say is — broadcaster and politician but what i would say is my— broadcaster and politician but what i would say is my basic— i would say is my basic understanding - i would say is my basic understanding of- i would say is my basic- understanding of economics as it i would say is my basic— understanding of economics as it is a debt-to-gdp _ understanding of economics as it is a debt—to—gdp ratio _ understanding of economics as it is a debt—to—gdp ratio and _ understanding of economics as it is a debt—to—gdp ratio and that- understanding of economics as it is a debt—to—gdp ratio and that doesl a debt—to—gdp ratio and that does not out _ a debt—to—gdp ratio and that does not put us — a debt—to—gdp ratio and that does not put us at — a debt—to—gdp ratio and that does not put us at the _ a debt—to—gdp ratio and that does not put us at the bottom - a debt—to—gdp ratio and that does not put us at the bottom of- a debt—to—gdp ratio and that does not put us at the bottom of the . not put us at the bottom of the class _ not put us at the bottom of the class with — not put us at the bottom of the class with similar— not put us at the bottom of the class with similar countries. . not put us at the bottom of the. class with similar countries. and the government— class with similar countries. and the government must— class with similar countries. and the government must decide - class with similar countries. and i the government must decide then whether— the government must decide then whether the — the government must decide then whether the route _ the government must decide then whether the route they— the government must decide then whether the route they take - the government must decide then whether the route they take is - whether the route they take is taxation — whether the route they take is taxation and _ whether the route they take is taxation and austerity, - whether the route they take isl taxation and austerity, whether whether the route they take is i taxation and austerity, whether if there _ taxation and austerity, whether if there is— taxation and austerity, whether if there is any— taxation and austerity, whether if there is any space _ taxation and austerity, whether if there is any space to _ taxation and austerity, whether if there is any space to borrow- taxation and austerity, whether if| there is any space to borrow more and which — there is any space to borrow more and which one _ there is any space to borrow more and which one will— there is any space to borrow more and which one will grow _ there is any space to borrow more and which one will grow the - there is any space to borrow more i and which one will grow the economy within— and which one will grow the economy within the _ and which one will grow the economy within the circumstances _ and which one will grow the economy within the circumstances you - and which one will grow the economy within the circumstances you are i and which one will grow the economy within the circumstances you are in. i within the circumstances you are in. we overheated _ within the circumstances you are in. we overheated the _ within the circumstances you are in. we overheated the economy - within the circumstances you are in. we overheated the economy duringl we overheated the economy during covid, _ we overheated the economy during covid, we _ we overheated the economy during covid, we shut— we overheated the economy during covid, we shut down— we overheated the economy during covid, we shut down the _ we overheated the economy during covid, we shut down the economy. we overheated the economy during i covid, we shut down the economy and we had _ covid, we shut down the economy and we had to— covid, we shut down the economy and we had to print — covid, we shut down the economy and we had to print lots _ covid, we shut down the economy and we had to print lots of _ covid, we shut down the economy and we had to print lots of money - covid, we shut down the economy and we had to print lots of money and i we had to print lots of money and that is— we had to print lots of money and that is the — we had to print lots of money and that is the situation _ we had to print lots of money and that is the situation we _ we had to print lots of money and that is the situation we are - we had to print lots of money and that is the situation we are in i we had to print lots of money and that is the situation we are in as i that is the situation we are in as well— that is the situation we are in as well as— that is the situation we are in as well as huge _ that is the situation we are in as well as huge amounts— that is the situation we are in as well as huge amounts of- that is the situation we are in asl well as huge amounts of inflation caused _ well as huge amounts of inflation caused lry— well as huge amounts of inflation caused by the _ well as huge amounts of inflation caused by the energy— well as huge amounts of inflation caused by the energy crisis. i well as huge amounts of inflation i caused by the energy crisis. picking up caused by the energy crisis. picking up on _ caused by the energy crisis. picking up on the _ caused by the energy crisis. picking up on the other— caused by the energy crisis. picking up on the other point, _ caused by the energy crisis. picking up on the other point, rhetoric, i up on the other point, rhetoric, this was— up on the other point, rhetoric, this was the _ up on the other point, rhetoric, this was the party— up on the other point, rhetoric, this was the party that - up on the other point, rhetoric, this was the party that spoke i up on the other point, rhetoric, i this was the party that spoke before the election— this was the party that spoke before the election about _ this was the party that spoke before

the election about growth. - this was the party that spoke before the election about growth. this i this was the party that spoke before the election about growth. this is i the election about growth. this is what _ the election about growth. this is what parties _ the election about growth. this is what parties were _ the election about growth. this is what parties were trading - the election about growth. this is what parties were trading and i the election about growth. this is what parties were trading and in. the election about growth. this is i what parties were trading and in the snap election — what parties were trading and in the snap election campaign _ what parties were trading and in the snap election campaign so - what parties were trading and in the snap election campaign so we - what parties were trading and in the snap election campaign so we do i what parties were trading and in thei snap election campaign so we do not have time _ snap election campaign so we do not have time to — snap election campaign so we do not have time to scrutinise _ snap election campaign so we do not have time to scrutinise or— snap election campaign so we do not have time to scrutinise or formulate i have time to scrutinise or formulate anything _ have time to scrutinise or formulate anything but — have time to scrutinise or formulate anything but a — have time to scrutinise or formulate anything but a threadbare _ have time to scrutinise or formulate | anything but a threadbare manifesto and what _ anything but a threadbare manifesto and what we — anything but a threadbare manifesto and what we have _ anything but a threadbare manifesto and what we have seen _ anything but a threadbare manifesto and what we have seen since - anything but a threadbare manifesto and what we have seen since is- anything but a threadbare manifesto and what we have seen since is a i anything but a threadbare manifesto and what we have seen since is a lot of policies _ and what we have seen since is a lot of policies know _ and what we have seen since is a lot of policies know when _ and what we have seen since is a lot of policies know when you _ and what we have seen since is a lot of policies know when you were i of policies know when you were coming — of policies know when you were coming huge _ of policies know when you were coming. huge surprises. - of policies know when you were coming. huge surprises. i- of policies know when you were coming. huge surprises. iwantj of policies know when you were i coming. huge surprises. i want to pick up _ coming. huge surprises. i want to pick up on — coming. huge surprises. i want to pick up on this _ coming. huge surprises. i want to pick up on this idea _ coming. huge surprises. i want to pick up on this idea that _ coming. huge surprises. i want to pick up on this idea that people i coming. huge surprises. i want to. pick up on this idea that people are scared, _ pick up on this idea that people are scared, i_ pick up on this idea that people are scared, ithink— pick up on this idea that people are scared, i think they— pick up on this idea that people are scared, i think they are. _ pick up on this idea that people are scared, i think they are. there i pick up on this idea that people are scared, i think they are. there is i scared, i think they are. there is nothing — scared, i think they are. there is nothing about _ scared, i think they are. there is nothing about capital— scared, i think they are. there is nothing about capital gains i scared, i think they are. there is nothing about capital gains tax . scared, i think they are. there is| nothing about capital gains tax in the labour— nothing about capital gains tax in the labour manifesto _ nothing about capital gains tax in the labour manifesto and - nothing about capital gains tax in the labour manifesto and there i nothing about capital gains tax in i the labour manifesto and there are people _ the labour manifesto and there are people saying. _ the labour manifesto and there are people saying, you _ the labour manifesto and there are people saying, you know, - the labour manifesto and there are people saying, you know, that- the labour manifesto and there are people saying, you know, that is. the labour manifesto and there are l people saying, you know, that is how i people saying, you know, that is how i make _ people saying, you know, that is how i make money— people saying, you know, that is how i make money so— people saying, you know, that is how i make money so when _ people saying, you know, that is how i make money so when i— people saying, you know, that is how i make money so when i be _ people saying, you know, that is how i make money so when i be able i people saying, you know, that is how i make money so when i be able to i people saying, you know, that is howl i make money so when i be able to do sow _ i make money so when i be able to do sow is _ i make money so when i be able to do so... , . i make money so when i be able to do so, , , , ., ., . ., i make money so when i be able to do so... ,., ., . ., ., i make money so when i be able to do so... ., . ., ., ., so... is a chancellor not right that whenever you _ so... is a chancellor not right that whenever you look _ so... is a chancellor not right that whenever you look at _ so... is a chancellor not right that whenever you look at that - so... is a chancellor not right that whenever you look at that debt i so... is a chancellor not right that whenever you look at that debt to | whenever you look at that debt to output ratio, those with the broader shoulders do need to dig deeper? there are various ways in which one can help _ there are various ways in which one can help to— there are various ways in which one can help to boost the economy and what you _ can help to boost the economy and what you do not want to do is see so much _ what you do not want to do is see so much capital — what you do not want to do is see so much capital flight that you hit the top of— much capital flight that you hit the top of the — much capital flight that you hit the top of the ladder and you are not able to— top of the ladder and you are not able to engender growth within your economy _ able to engender growth within your economy. at the same time we have to look at _ economy. at the same time we have to look at ways— economy. at the same time we have to look at ways in which we can recoup

the money— look at ways in which we can recoup the money from our citizens to feed public— the money from our citizens to feed public services, to service this debt — public services, to service this debt l — public services, to service this debt. . ., public services, to service this debt. _, . ~ ., ., debt. i will come back to the wealth tax. you debt. i will come back to the wealth tax- you are — debt. i will come back to the wealth tax- you are a _ debt. i will come back to the wealth tax. you are a wealthy _ debt. i will come back to the wealth tax. you are a wealthy man. - debt. i will come back to the wealth tax. you are a wealthy man. let i debt. i will come back to the wealth tax. you are a wealthy man. let us| tax. you are a wealthy man. let us talk about your general opinion of what we have had so far. you were one of the business leaders who put your weight behind labour in the campaign. this cannot be the sort of commentary you wanted 77 days into this government?— this government? what we have is hones . this government? what we have is honesty- the _ this government? what we have is honesty. the new _ this government? what we have is honesty. the new labour - this government? what we have is i honesty. the new labour government or simply— honesty. the new labour government or simply being — honesty. the new labour government or simply being honest— honesty. the new labour government or simply being honest with _ honesty. the new labour government or simply being honest with us - honesty. the new labour government or simply being honest with us abouti or simply being honest with us about the economy— or simply being honest with us about the economy and _ or simply being honest with us about the economy and the _ or simply being honest with us about the economy and the old _ or simply being honest with us aboutl the economy and the old conservative government— the economy and the old conservative government or — the economy and the old conservative government or not _ the economy and the old conservative government or not and _ the economy and the old conservative government or not and we _ the economy and the old conservative government or not and we do - the economy and the old conservative government or not and we do not i the economy and the old conservativel government or not and we do not need boosterism, _ government or not and we do not need boosterism, we — government or not and we do not need boosterism, we had _ government or not and we do not need boosterism, we had that _ government or not and we do not need boosterism, we had that under- government or not and we do not need boosterism, we had that under boris i boosterism, we had that under boris johnson, _ boosterism, we had that under boris johnson, we — boosterism, we had that under boris johnson, we need _ boosterism, we had that under boris johnson, we need the _ boosterism, we had that under boris johnson, we need the facts - boosterism, we had that under boris johnson, we need the facts and i boosterism, we had that under boris johnson, we need the facts and thisl johnson, we need the facts and this is a truth _ johnson, we need the facts and this is a truth and — johnson, we need the facts and this is a truth and maybe _ johnson, we need the facts and this is a truth and maybe it _ johnson, we need the facts and this is a truth and maybe it has - johnson, we need the facts and this is a truth and maybe it has been i is a truth and maybe it has been presented — is a truth and maybe it has been presented incompletely- is a truth and maybe it has been presented incompletely because is a truth and maybe it has been . presented incompletely because it does not _ presented incompletely because it does not have _ presented incompletely because it does not have the _ presented incompletely because it does not have the destination- presented incompletely because it does not have the destination butl does not have the destination but this is— does not have the destination but this is not— does not have the destination but this is not where _ does not have the destination but this is not where we _ does not have the destination but this is not where we are - does not have the destination but this is not where we are right- does not have the destination butl this is not where we are right now. they— this is not where we are right now. they promised _ this is not where we are right now. they promised not _ this is not where we are right now. they promised not to _ this is not where we are right now. they promised not to put - this is not where we are right now. they promised not to put up - this is not where we are right now. i they promised not to put up income tax and _ they promised not to put up income tax and that— they promised not to put up income tax and that is— they promised not to put up income tax and that is in— they promised not to put up income tax and that is in the _ they promised not to put up income tax and that is in the manifesto i they promised not to put up income tax and that is in the manifesto so l tax and that is in the manifesto so i tax and that is in the manifesto so i look— tax and that is in the manifesto so i look at _ tax and that is in the manifesto so i look at the — tax and that is in the manifesto so i look at the coming _ tax and that is in the manifesto so i look at the coming budget - tax and that is in the manifesto so i look at the coming budget and ii tax and that is in the manifesto so i i look at the coming budget and i am not sure _ i look at the coming budget and i am not sure what — i look at the coming budget and i am not sure what harm _ i look at the coming budget and i am not sure what harm there _ i look at the coming budget and i am not sure what harm there can - i look at the coming budget and i am not sure what harm there can be i i look at the coming budget and i am not sure what harm there can be fori not sure what harm there can be for most _ not sure what harm there can be for most people — not sure what harm there can be for

most people i_ not sure what harm there can be for most people. i would _ not sure what harm there can be for most people. i would welcome i not sure what harm there can be for most people. i would welcome a i most people. i would welcome a wealth_ most people. i would welcome a wealth tax— most people. i would welcome a wealth tax and _ most people. i would welcome a wealth tax and a _ most people. i would welcome a wealth tax and a rise _ most people. i would welcome a wealth tax and a rise in - most people. i would welcome a wealth tax and a rise in capital . wealth tax and a rise in capital gains — wealth tax and a rise in capital gains tax. _ wealth tax and a rise in capital gains tax. i_ wealth tax and a rise in capital gains tax, i have _ wealth tax and a rise in capital gains tax, i have campaigned. wealth tax and a rise in capital . gains tax, i have campaigned for both_ gains tax, i have campaigned for both things _ gains tax, i have campaigned for both things because _ gains tax, i have campaigned for both things because there - gains tax, i have campaigned for both things because there are i gains tax, i have campaigned for- both things because there are people with broader— both things because there are people with broader shoulders _ both things because there are people with broader shoulders and _ both things because there are people with broader shoulders and they- both things because there are people with broader shoulders and they payl with broader shoulders and they pay less as _ with broader shoulders and they pay less as a _ with broader shoulders and they pay less as a percentage _ with broader shoulders and they pay less as a percentage of _ with broader shoulders and they pay less as a percentage of their- with broader shoulders and they pay less as a percentage of their income in tax _ less as a percentage of their income in tax thah _ less as a percentage of their income in tax than ordinary— less as a percentage of their income in tax than ordinary workers - less as a percentage of their income in tax than ordinary workers and - in tax than ordinary workers and that should _ in tax than ordinary workers and that should not _ in tax than ordinary workers and that should not be _ in tax than ordinary workers and that should not be right. - in tax than ordinary workers and that should not be right. [it- in tax than ordinary workers and that should not be right. [it is i in tax than ordinary workers and that should not be right.- that should not be right. it is a susr>icion _ that should not be right. it is a susr>icion if _ that should not be right. it is a suspicion if you _ that should not be right. it is a suspicion if you put _ that should not be right. it is a suspicion if you put the - that should not be right. it is a suspicion if you put the wealth | that should not be right. it is a . suspicion if you put the wealth tax in place, then people like you, not necessarily you, but people like you would flee the country?— would flee the country? there are --eole would flee the country? there are peeple like _ would flee the country? there are peeple like me! — would flee the country? there are people like me! would _ would flee the country? there are people like me! would you - would flee the country? there are people like me! would you pack. would flee the country? there arel people like me! would you pack up and no? i people like me! would you pack up and go? lthink— people like me! would you pack up and go? i think very _ people like me! would you pack up and go? i think very few— people like me! would you pack up and go? i think very few people - and go? i think very few people would. if they _ and go? i think very few people would. if they did _ and go? i think very few people would. if they did and - and go? i think very few people would. if they did and they - and go? i think very few people would. if they did and they are | and go? i think very few people i would. if they did and they are not the people — would. if they did and they are not the peorile we _ would. if they did and they are not the people we want _ would. if they did and they are not the people we want here, - would. if they did and they are not the people we want here, not - would. if they did and they are not . the people we want here, not willing to pay— the people we want here, not willing to pay their— the people we want here, not willing to paytheirfair_ the people we want here, not willing to pay their fair share _ the people we want here, not willing to pay their fair share and _ the people we want here, not willing to pay their fair share and they- to pay their fair share and they should — to pay their fair share and they should leave. _ to pay their fair share and they should leave. [it— to pay their fair share and they should leave.— should leave. it is all huff and uff? should leave. it is all huff and puff? what — should leave. it is all huff and puff? what about _ should leave. it is all huff and puff? what about countries i should leave. it is all huff and - puff? what about countries where they have imposed their wealth tax? it depends on the level and i think the problem the country has summarised here, we are focusing on individual— summarised here, we are focusing on individual fiscal measures and we are losing — individual fiscal measures and we are losing sight of the growth mission — are losing sight of the growth mission and that is ironic because one week— mission and that is ironic because one week after the election the chancellor stood up and explained

the first _ chancellor stood up and explained the first phase of the growth policy~ — the first phase of the growth policy. it _ the first phase of the growth policy. it was about releasing the brakes— policy. it was about releasing the brakes and making the engines of growth _ brakes and making the engines of growth more powerful and there is a second _ growth more powerful and there is a second phase that must come which is creating _ second phase that must come which is creating new— second phase that must come which is creating new engines to take advantage of these incredible transformations that are happening with technology and ai, in life sciences _ with technology and ai, in life sciences. nobody is talking about this, _ sciences. nobody is talking about this, we — sciences. nobody is talking about this, we are instead talking about individual— this, we are instead talking about individual taxes and you cannot divorce — individual taxes and you cannot divorce the individual taxes from the overall growth mission and the worst— the overall growth mission and the worst thing that can happen is to treat— worst thing that can happen is to treat them like a distant relative, they are — treat them like a distant relative, they are not. treat them like a distant relative, they are not-— treat them like a distant relative, they are not. treat them like a distant relative, the are not. ,, ., , . . . they are not. should she have had a secial they are not. should she have had a special fiscal— they are not. should she have had a special fiscal event _ they are not. should she have had a special fiscal event off _ they are not. should she have had a special fiscal event off the - they are not. should she have had a special fiscal event off the bat? - they are not. should she have had a special fiscal event off the bat? if i special fiscal event off the bat? if you were to go back with what we know, _ you were to go back with what we know. the — you were to go back with what we know, the announcement should have accompanied a budget, they should have done — accompanied a budget, they should have done what gordon brown did in 97, two— have done what gordon brown did in 97. two very— have done what gordon brown did in 97, two very quickly present a holistic— 97, two very quickly present a holistic view of how they will treat the fiscal — holistic view of how they will treat the fiscal challenge. we have got a serious _ the fiscal challenge. we have got a serious challenge. the the fiscal challenge. we have got a serious challenge.— the fiscal challenge. we have got a serious challenge. the other area of our neighbour _ serious challenge. the other area of our neighbour is _ serious challenge. the other area of our neighbour is not _ serious challenge. the other area of

our neighbour is not faring - serious challenge. the other area of our neighbour is not faring well - serious challenge. the other area of our neighbour is not faring well is i our neighbour is not faring well is over passes for glasses or clothesgate, this is what harriet harman told us. i clothesgate, this is what harriet harman told us.— harman told us. i think with the clothes. - -- _ i think with the clothes, he is unlikely — his own clothes and his wife's clothes and the glasses — i think he is unlikely to take gifts of clothes again. so he might as welljust say, "well, i did it then, i can see that it has caused annoyance, i don't intend to do it in the future. it's not a hanging offence, i was being transparent about it but i'm going to proceed differently." and today he has announced, as a generator, they will not take free clothes in the future. —— as has angela rayner. you have been testing this amongst focus groups, does this matter quite yellow it really matters and i was baffled by the line that this does not matter to voters, they want to focus on delivery but they want to clean up politics and for so many other people bespeak to, they basically

think politicians are there because they are on the make and it is one rule for them and another for everyone else and the immediate reaction from the public is nobody pays for my clothes and i have to wear clothes every day and the wallpaper, and the real danger here is one of the reasons people voted for keir starmer is it was not in his charisma, he was not the next tony blair, but it was because he looks different to what had come before. he was the antidote to the sleaze and the scandals and i think there is a real risk that he comes across to the public as a hypocrite because of this because he spent a lot of time prosecuting boris johnson in parliament and it will look to many of the public, even if they are not the same, and the public do not distinguish on this stuff, it looks like they are all at it, they are all the same as each other. this has the potential to really hurt keir starmer. when you

talk to the government and you have conference in the next few days, do you get some input? when you talk to ed miliband on green issues do you share ideas and how much are they taking on board? i share ideas and how much are they taking on board?— share ideas and how much are they taking on board? i have been sharing ideas for quite _ taking on board? i have been sharing ideas for quite a _ taking on board? i have been sharing ideas for quite a while, _ taking on board? i have been sharing ideas for quite a while, not _ taking on board? i have been sharing ideas for quite a while, notjust - ideas for quite a while, not just with— ideas for quite a while, not just with labour but with the tories as well and — with labour but with the tories as well and the lib dems and some of the ideas _ well and the lib dems and some of the ideas i — well and the lib dems and some of the ideas i have been sharing have been _ the ideas i have been sharing have been picked up, public ownership of renewable _ been picked up, public ownership of renewable energy, i have been arguing — renewable energy, i have been arguing for that for a long time and you can _ arguing for that for a long time and you can see — arguing for that for a long time and you can see that with great british energy _ you can see that with great british energy. good ideas should be picked up. energy. good ideas should be picked up but— energy. good ideas should be picked u. �* y ., energy. good ideas should be picked up. but you give money to labour? and the green _ up. but you give money to labour? and the green party. _ up. but you give money to labour? and the green party. you - up. but you give money to labour? and the green party. you will- up. but you give money to labour? j and the green party. you will know where i and the green party. you will know where i am — and the green party. you will know where i am going — and the green party. you will know where i am going with _ and the green party. you will know where i am going with this, - and the green party. you will know where i am going with this, comingj where i am going with this, coming back to what i was saying... the point is this problem that if you have access then you can get your ideas across and this is a problem. it is the smell test? and i wonder if you recognise that and whether thatis if you recognise that and whether that is a problem?

i think the perception that political donations are accompanied by some _ political donations are accompanied by some kind of return favour, i think— by some kind of return favour, i think that's _ by some kind of return favour, i think that's widely held. it was absolutely cemented in place by the last four _ absolutely cemented in place by the last four years of tory rule when we saw incredible deals like the likes of the _ saw incredible deals like the likes of the vip— saw incredible deals like the likes of the vip lane for tory donors to -et of the vip lane for tory donors to get access— of the vip lane for tory donors to get access to supply ppe. millions of pounds — get access to supply ppe. millions of pounds was channelled into friends— of pounds was channelled into friends of the conservative party and that — friends of the conservative party and that kind of thing is absolutely imprinted — and that kind of thing is absolutely imprinted on the public view. that is wh it imprinted on the public view. that is why it is — imprinted on the public view. that is why it is so _ imprinted on the public view. trust is why it is so important that the government was purer than pure on this stuff. because they said they were going to clear it happened because the public are so of it. the public view of politics at the moment is absolutely sulphurous.

that is because of the conservatives.- that is because of the conservatives. �* . , conservatives. but it raised the bar for the conservatives. but it raised the bar forthe labour— conservatives. but it raised the bar for the labour party _ conservatives. but it raised the bar for the labour party and _ conservatives. but it raised the bar for the labour party and i - conservatives. but it raised the bar for the labour party and i think - conservatives. but it raised the bar for the labour party and i think it i for the labour party and i think it is notjust bad for labour with these sorts of scandals continue, it is the whole of our politics, and you saw that in the general election. you saw that in the general election-— you saw that in the general election. , ., . election. sorry to cut you off, i don't think— election. sorry to cut you off, i don't think it's _ election. sorry to cut you off, i don't think it's a _ election. sorry to cut you off, i don't think it's a scandal- election. sorry to cut you off, i don't think it's a scandal that l election. sorry to cut you off, i i don't think it's a scandal that keir starmer— don't think it's a scandal that keir starmer got clothes. it don't think it's a scandal that keir starmer got clothes.— starmer got clothes. it was a pre-election _ starmer got clothes. it was a pre-election makeover. - starmer got clothes. it was a pre-election makeover. it. starmer got clothes. it was a pre-election makeover. it is| starmer got clothes. it was a - pre-election makeover. it is rather pre—election makeover. it is rather like the _ pre—election makeover. it is rather like the emperors— pre—election makeover. it is rather like the emperors new— pre—election makeover. it is rather like the emperors new clothes, - pre—election makeover. it is rather like the emperors new clothes, all| like the emperors new clothes, all of a sudden — like the emperors new clothes, all of a sudden keir— like the emperors new clothes, all of a sudden keir starmer- like the emperors new clothes, all of a sudden keir starmer looking i like the emperors new clothes, all. of a sudden keir starmer looking na not great _ of a sudden keir starmer looking na not great light~ _ of a sudden keir starmer looking na not great light. the _ of a sudden keir starmer looking na not great light. the labour - of a sudden keir starmer looking na not great light. the labour party- not great light. the labour party were _ not great light. the labour party were very — not great light. the labour party were very sanctimonious - not great light. the labour party were very sanctimonious about i not great light. the labour party- were very sanctimonious about boris johnson's _ were very sanctimonious about boris johnson's wallpaper. _ were very sanctimonious about boris johnson's wallpaper. 50 _ were very sanctimonious about boris johnson's wallpaper.— johnson's wallpaper. so you are sa in: johnson's wallpaper. so you are saying hypocrisy- _ johnson's wallpaper. so you are saying hypocrisy. we _ johnson's wallpaper. so you are saying hypocrisy. we got - johnson's wallpaper. so you are saying hypocrisy. we got used l johnson's wallpaper. so you are l saying hypocrisy. we got used to that end in _ saying hypocrisy. we got used to that end in the _ saying hypocrisy. we got used to that end in the same _ saying hypocrisy. we got used to that end in the same period - saying hypocrisy. we got used to that end in the same period of. saying hypocrisy. we got used to i that end in the same period of time since _ that end in the same period of time since 2019— that end in the same period of time since 2019 keir— that end in the same period of time since 2019 keir starmer— that end in the same period of time since 2019 keir starmer is- that end in the same period of time since 2019 keir starmer is an - since 2019 keir starmer is an individual mp— since 2019 keir starmer is an individual mp has— since 2019 keir starmer is an individual mp has taken - since 2019 keir starmer is an| individual mp has taken more freebies— individual mp has taken more freebies than— individual mp has taken more freebies than anyone - individual mp has taken more freebies than anyone else - individual mp has taken more freebies than anyone else in. freebies than anyone else in the parliament _ freebies than anyone else in the parliament-— freebies than anyone else in the - parliament._ there parliament. that is debatable. there is that sense that _ parliament. that is debatable. there is that sense that there _ parliament. that is debatable. there is that sense that there was - parliament. that is debatable. there is that sense that there was such - parliament. that is debatable. there is that sense that there was such a l is that sense that there was such a vitriol— is that sense that there was such a vitriol and — is that sense that there was such a vitriol and sanctimony_ is that sense that there was such a vitriol and sanctimony when - is that sense that there was such a vitriol and sanctimony when they. vitriol and sanctimony when they were _ vitriol and sanctimony when they were accusing _ vitriol and sanctimony when they were accusing to _ vitriol and sanctimony when they were accusing to conserve - vitriol and sanctimony when they were accusing to conserve the i vitriol and sanctimony when they. were accusing to conserve the party of doing _ were accusing to conserve the party of doing things _ were accusing to conserve the party of doing things if— were accusing to conserve the party of doing things. if you _ were accusing to conserve the party of doing things. if you want - were accusing to conserve the party of doing things. if you want to - were accusing to conserve the party of doing things. if you want to take| of doing things. if you want to take nroney— of doing things. if you want to take money take — of doing things. if you want to take money take it _ of doing things. if you want to take money take it for _ of doing things. if you want to take money take it for the _ of doing things. if you want to take money take it for the campaign, i of doing things. if you want to take money take it for the campaign, toj money take it for the campaign, to take a _ money take it for the campaign, to take a new— money take it for the campaign, to take a new wardrobe _ money take it for the campaign, to take a new wardrobe is—

money take it for the campaign, to take a new wardrobe is frankly, - money take it for the campaign, to take a new wardrobe is frankly, i. take a new wardrobe is frankly, i don't _ take a new wardrobe is frankly, i don't know. _ take a new wardrobe is frankly, i don't know, something - take a new wardrobe is frankly, i don't know, something really- take a new wardrobe is frankly, i- don't know, something really shallow about— don't know, something really shallow about that _ don't know, something really shallow about that one — don't know, something really shallow about that. . , ., about that. one final question before i about that. one final question before i let — about that. one final question before i let you _ about that. one final question before i let you go. _ about that. one final question before i let you go. we - about that. one final question before i let you go. we are i about that. one final question i before i let you go. we are going about that. one final question - before i let you go. we are going to talk about reform very shortly but we have vice president harris and tim wells wandering around your country and it is all milk and honey and everything is good and they are going up in the polls and here we have nigel farage saying britain is broken, we have the labour party telling us it is doom and gloom. is there a problem that maybe we talk ourselves into a recession? you foruot ourselves into a recession? you forgot one _ ourselves into a recession? gm. forgot one important actor in the us, former president trump. he is not going around saying everything is fine but that everything is broken. �* . is fine but that everything is broken. �* , ., ., broken. and he is going down in the olls. it is broken. and he is going down in the polls- it is a — broken. and he is going down in the polls. it is a close _ broken. and he is going down in the polls. it is a close election. - broken. and he is going down in the polls. it is a close election. there i polls. it is a close election. there is something _ polls. it is a close election. there is something to _ polls. it is a close election. there is something to the _ polls. it is a close election. there is something to the fact - polls. it is a close election. there is something to the fact that - polls. it is a close election. there is something to the fact that you | is something to the fact that you can talk yourself into recession, absolutely. it has been shown over and over again, absolutely. it has been shown over and overagain, but absolutely. it has been shown over and over again, but again it goes back to explaining the difference between the journey and the destination. people will accept a difficult journey for destination. people will accept a difficultjourney for a better

destination. i can give you an example of argentina who went through a massive recession and in the end the president has very high support because he has the buy in of the population, that there is something better at the end of this. the gloom and doom, in my opinion, is not about honesty. it's not about being over cautious, it's about partial communication that's lacking the overall framing and that can be corrected. . ~ the overall framing and that can be corrected. . ,, , ., the overall framing and that can be corrected. . ~' , ., ., the overall framing and that can be corrected. . ,, , ., ., _, ., corrected. thank you for coming on the programme- — there could be as many as 5,000 british nationals with dependents still in lebanon, even though for some weeks the british government has been urging them all to leave. the government cobra task force reissued that warning today after one of the most intense bombardments we have seen in southern lebanon, since october 7th. and there was an air strike in beirut itself. the target this time, a senior commander for the proscribed terorr group hezbollah, tereor group hezbollah, ibrahim aquil, who had been injured earlier in the week by an exploding pager and hours earlier was being treated in hospital. we have been speaking to british expat laura paterson, who runs a tech company in beirut

and is weighing up her options. it has been the slightly terrifying on the ground, to say the least. these latest attacks are definitely the worst we have been seeing especially in beirut. yesterday we had a very loud sonic boom which is when thejet plane had a very loud sonic boom which is when the jet plane crosses the sound barrier. that was terrifying, i was in a cafe and everybody started screaming and it really feels like there is a bomb. you know it is a sonic boom because there is a second sound that follows, so these are the conversations we have been having over the last few days. find conversations we have been having over the last few days.— over the last few days. and how is it left ou over the last few days. and how is it left you feeling? _ over the last few days. and how is it left you feeling? has _ over the last few days. and how is it left you feeling? has changed i over the last few days. and how is| it left you feeling? has changed for you? i it left you feeling? has changed for ou? ., ,. , it left you feeling? has changed for ou? ., _ . it left you feeling? has changed for ou? ., . . , , it left you feeling? has changed for ou? ., . , ., you? i would say, i have a sense of relief ou you? i would say, i have a sense of relief you want _ you? i would say, i have a sense of relief you want during _ you? i would say, i have a sense of relief you want during the -

you? i would say, i have a sense of relief you want during the time. i . relief you want during the time. i go to stay at friends houses so i'm not on my own, but apart from that we are trying as much as we can to carry on through the day. what we are trying as much as we can to carry on through the day.— carry on through the day. what is that ou carry on through the day. what is that you actually _ carry on through the day. what is that you actually do _ carry on through the day. what is that you actually do in _ carry on through the day. what is that you actually do in beirut? i l that you actually do in beirut? i run two tech companies here. we basically make websites and we employ marginalised developers from lebanon and link them to employment outside. we work with companies all over the world that are looking for access to amazing talent that there is so much of here and we bridge that gap between the talent here in companies around the world looking for developers. companies around the world looking for developers-— for developers. must be so frustrating _ for developers. must be so frustrating because - for developers. must be so frustrating because i i for developers. must be so frustrating because i think| for developers. must be so i frustrating because i think you for developers. must be so - frustrating because i think you have got a big conference coming up at the end of the week.— the end of the week. yes, next weekend we — the end of the week. yes, next weekend we have _ the end of the week. yes, next weekend we have the - the end of the week. yes, next weekend we have the first i the end of the week. yes, next i weekend we have the first women in tech roadshow in the middle east, at the university in beirut with about 400 people coming. fingers crossed we can still go ahead but again let's see what happens in the next few days. let's see what happens in the next few da s. let's see what happens in the next fewda s. , let's see what happens in the next fewda s. ., few days. the embassy is saying go now, so few days. the embassy is saying go now. so what _ few days. the embassy is saying go now, so what are _ few days. the embassy is saying go now, so what are you _ few days. the embassy is saying go now, so what are you going - few days. the embassy is saying go now, so what are you going to i few days. the embassy is saying go now, so what are you going to do? | few days. the embassy is saying go| now, so what are you going to do? i am trying as best as i can to create

am trying as best as i can to create a structure in my company that allows everything to work without me being here and to create a back—up plan and that is what we are working on at the moment, a contingency plan for all of that. this on at the moment, a contingency plan for all of that-— for all of that. as and when that is set u- i for all of that. as and when that is set op i will _ for all of that. as and when that is set up i will make _ for all of that. as and when that is set up i will make a _ for all of that. as and when that is set up i will make a decision. i for all of that. as and when that is set up i will make a decision. so . set up i will make a decision. 50 when would you draw the line and leave? i when would you draw the line and leave? ~' ., when would you draw the line and leave? ~ ., . ., . leave? i think i would have to have a real sense _ leave? i think i would have to have a real sense of _ leave? i think i would have to have a real sense of impending - leave? i think i would have to have a real sense of impending danger i leave? i think i would have to have . a real sense of impending danger for a real sense of impending dangerfor myself, and i guess that comes as and when, if something further happens that if i feel like needing a break, but obviously i have the choice to leave and the privilege of that. there is a real sense of the unknown. forsure that. there is a real sense of the unknown. for sure it is even more difficult for the lebanese that are here and everyone that lives here, but there is definitely a sense of fear but also a really strong sense of camaraderie. the lebanese have sadly been through this before and

there is a real sense of everyone coming together. you get messages saying, are you 0k, where are you a? from my lebanese friends, from my expat friends, from everyone. so i would say there is a real sense of community. would say there is a real sense of community-— community. lorra, take care of yourself. _ community. lorra, take care of yourself, thank _ community. lorra, take care of yourself, thank you _ community. lorra, take care of yourself, thank you very i community. lorra, take care of yourself, thank you very much | community. lorra, take care of i yourself, thank you very much for talking to us. yourself, thank you very much for talking to us— yourself, thank you very much for talking to us._ difficult| talking to us. thank you. difficult decision for _ talking to us. thank you. difficult decision for a _ talking to us. thank you. difficult decision for a lot _ talking to us. thank you. difficult decision for a lot of _ talking to us. thank you. difficult decision for a lot of people i talking to us. thank you. difficult decision for a lot of people still. decision for a lot of people still in beirut. to pyrotechnics and a standing ovation, the reform leader nigel farage was soaking it all up today at the nec in birmingham. his party won four million votes in thejuly election — five mps, though on purely proportional representation they would have had 91 seats. that is the promise the leader wants them to fulfill, but it starts, he says, with reform within. farage has been criticised for running the party like a private company, but this weekend he will transfer power to the party membership. and they will learn, he says, from the lib dems, who have a formidable grassroots

operation. that, he says, will allow the party to achieve its ultimate aim — winning a majority. we can win the next general election just with the numbers of people that agree with our principles, that agree that family, that agree that community, that agree the country should be the thing that absolutely everybody in public life campaigns for because they are the most important things to all of us that live here. nigel farage a little earlier in birmingham. let's bring our panel back in. as nigel farage seriously thinking about downing street? yes. as nigel farage seriously thinking about downing street?— as nigel farage seriously thinking about downing street? yes. i have known nigel _ about downing street? yes. i have known nigel probably _ about downing street? yes. i have known nigel probably longer- about downing street? yes. i have known nigel probably longer than l known nigel probably longer than most people and he makes his decisions very carefully. he thought for a long time whether or not it was worth his while coming back and whether he should do it and he thought, i only have one more role

of the dice, he has turned 60, and i don't think there is the right time but something has made him change his mind. what i do know having worked so closely with him for over a decade as he is a formidable reader of the political tea leaves. regardless of what one may think of his politics, when it comes to the crafty is exceptional. this his politics, when it comes to the crafty is exceptional.— crafty is exceptional. this big announcement _ crafty is exceptional. this big announcement today - crafty is exceptional. this big announcement today that i crafty is exceptional. this big announcement today that he | crafty is exceptional. this big i announcement today that he is divesting power to the membership and no longer will it be nigel farage limited, what is that all about? it farage limited, what is that all about? . , farage limited, what is that all about? , , , , farage limited, what is that all about? , i, , ., about? it is very simple, so i have known him — about? it is very simple, so i have known him since _ about? it is very simple, so i have known him since of _ about? it is very simple, so i have known him since of the _ about? it is very simple, so i have known him since of the ukip i about? it is very simple, so i have known him since of the ukip days| about? it is very simple, so i have i known him since of the ukip days and a toxic situation with an nec that was constantly at war with the leadership in the party ended up imploding and then there was no nigel farage party at all until the european elections and nobody can predict when or if they were going to come in the throes of brexit. and so the brexit party was formulated six weeks before that election so simply set up essentially has a limited company. no time to beef

planning a constitution and fighting membership and so on and then we were in the european parliament for six months before that was all over. it is doing the work that needed to be done but there was no need to do it until this point. the be done but there was no need to do it until this point.— it until this point. the difference between him — it until this point. the difference between him and _ it until this point. the difference between him and his— it until this point. the difference between him and his good i it until this point. the difference | between him and his good friend donald trump as trump took over an established political structure and nigel farage has tried three times to grow the party from the base. basically it is the same thing, it just got a rebrand, but after we left the european parliament it was put on ice. richard tice pumped some money and kept it ticking over under the new nomenclature and then when the new nomenclature and then when the snap election was called... do not think he would be better parachuting into the conservative party? parachuting into the conservative pa ? . , parachuting into the conservative pa ? ., , party? that is an interesting argument _ party? that is an interesting argument i— party? that is an interesting argument. i think _ party? that is an interesting argument. i think the - party? that is an interesting - argument. i think the conservatives are split over whether they would want him there or not and he would arguably not necessarily want to be there but when you want to talk about what happened in this

election, for a long time they can serve the party had a monopoly over the of politics where the labour party had to fight snp, lib dems and so forth, the tables turned on that election and the right—wing vote has splintered so whether or not in order to get a majority in the maximum number of seats, we have a complex political system. you maximum number of seats, we have a complex political system.— complex political system. you go out and ull complex political system. you go out and pull reform _ complex political system. you go out and pull reform voters _ complex political system. you go out and pull reform voters and _ complex political system. you go out and pull reform voters and compare| and pull reform voters and compare them to the rest of the country. if you were to look at the vote share they got, it was bigger than the lib dems. they were second in quite a number of constituencies around the country. they want to grow it like the lib dems from grassroots up. do you think they could convert those second places on wins? the you think they could convert those second places on wins?— second places on wins? the really interesting _ second places on wins? the really interesting thing _ second places on wins? the really interesting thing when _ second places on wins? the really interesting thing when you - second places on wins? the really interesting thing when you talk. interesting thing when you talk about— interesting thing when you talk about reform being the conservatives problem _ about reform being the conservatives problem at the last election, the interesting thing is they are second to labour_ interesting thing is they are second to labour on 89 seats around the

counlrx — to labour on 89 seats around the country. the problem for reform as you hinted — country. the problem for reform as you hinted as they got 4 million voles _ you hinted as they got 4 million votes but — you hinted as they got 4 million votes but they were inefficiently distributed so in order to convert them _ distributed so in order to convert them into— distributed so in order to convert them into seats they would have to target _ them into seats they would have to target in _ them into seats they would have to target in the same way that the liberal— target in the same way that the liberal democrats do. whether they can do— liberal democrats do. whether they can do that — liberal democrats do. whether they can do that i don't know as a bit of a challenge, — can do that i don't know as a bit of a challenge, because one of the things— a challenge, because one of the things we — a challenge, because one of the things we know as there are lots of people _ things we know as there are lots of people who like the fact nigel forage — people who like the fact nigel farage is plain speaking and says it like it— farage is plain speaking and says it like it is, _ farage is plain speaking and says it like it is, but many reform policies are quite _ like it is, but many reform policies are quite out of line with public opinion, — are quite out of line with public opinion, on ukraine...- are quite out of line with public opinion, on ukraine... on the way home tonight _ opinion, on ukraine... on the way home tonight people _ opinion, on ukraine... on the way home tonight people say - opinion, on ukraine... on the way home tonight people say you - opinion, on ukraine... on the way home tonight people say you are. opinion, on ukraine... on the way i home tonight people say you are the metropolitan elite, which makes me smile because i am from burnley, but they say you don't understand we are reform is going and we speak for the rest of the country, but in actual fact, when i look at some of the

polling you have done on many issues they are outliers.— they are outliers. when you look at climate change they _ they are outliers. when you look at climate change they are outliers. i climate change they are outliers. there is — climate change they are outliers. there is broad concern about climate change if _ there is broad concern about climate change. if you look at ukraine, if you look at— change. if you look at ukraine, if you look at some of the rhetoric on the nhs _ you look at some of the rhetoric on the nhs they are very sceptical atrout— the nhs they are very sceptical about the nhs funding model. let�*s about the nhs funding model. let's 'ust brina about the nhs funding model. let's just bring up — about the nhs funding model. let�*s just bring up immigration and you will see it on immigration which is they are a big go to policy, but how do you see emigration, a positive or negative impact overall? for the british public as a whole it is plus three, and yet a negative policy for reform voters.— reform voters. and this was really interestin: reform voters. and this was really interesting polling, _ reform voters. and this was really interesting polling, which basically found _ interesting polling, which basically found that what reform does is gives a voice _ found that what reform does is gives a voice to— found that what reform does is gives a voice to those who are very migration— a voice to those who are very migration sceptic. the public people want channel crossings stopped and levels _ want channel crossings stopped and levels of _ want channel crossings stopped and levels of emigration to be reduced but as_ levels of emigration to be reduced but as you saw on that question, across— but as you saw on that question, across the public as a whole they are actually quite neutral on whether— are actually quite neutral on whether emigration is positive and reform _ whether emigration is positive and reform are outliers.— reform are outliers. there is a dancer reform are outliers. there is a danger that — reform are outliers. there is a danger that principally - reform are outliers. there is a danger that principally a - reform are outliers. there is a danger that principally a lot. reform are outliers. there is a danger that principally a lot of| danger that principally a lot of people and a lot of these voters and you have seen it in 2016 in the

redwall seats don't think democracy is working for them and that is why you have pumped money into extinction rebellion, you can get anything done. and then you switched back to the mainstream, why? that anything done. and then you switched back to the mainstream, why?- back to the mainstream, why? that is an interesting — back to the mainstream, why? that is an interesting way _ back to the mainstream, why? that is an interesting way to _ back to the mainstream, why? that is an interesting way to put _ back to the mainstream, why? that is an interesting way to put it _ back to the mainstream, why? that is an interesting way to put it and - back to the mainstream, why? that is an interesting way to put it and i - an interesting way to put it and i didn't— an interesting way to put it and i didn't see — an interesting way to put it and i didn't see it— an interesting way to put it and i didn't see it that _ an interesting way to put it and i didn't see it that way. _ an interesting way to put it and i didn't see it that way. the - an interesting way to put it and i didn't see it that way. the just l didn't see it that way. the just stop— didn't see it that way. the just stop oil— didn't see it that way. the just stop 0il protest _ didn't see it that way. the just stop 0il protest were - didn't see it that way. the just stop 0il protest were vital - didn't see it that way. the just stop 0il protest were vital and raised — stop 0il protest were vital and raised a — stop 0il protest were vital and raised a vital— stop 0il protest were vital and raised a vital issue, _ stop 0il protest were vital and raised a vital issue, the - raised a vital issue, the conservative _ raised a vital issue, the conservative party - raised a vital issue, the| conservative party were raised a vital issue, the - conservative party were doing something _ conservative party were doing something that _ conservative party were doing something that was _ conservative party were doing something that was economicj conservative party were doing - something that was economic and moral— something that was economic and moral madness _ something that was economic and moral madness according - something that was economic and moral madness according to - something that was economic and moral madness according to the l moral madness according to the united _ moral madness according to the united nations— moral madness according to the united nations in— moral madness according to the united nations in drilling - moral madness according to the united nations in drilling for. moral madness according to the i united nations in drilling for new oil and _ united nations in drilling for new oil and gas — united nations in drilling for new oil and gas and _ united nations in drilling for new oil and gas and just _ united nations in drilling for new oil and gas and just stop - united nations in drilling for new oil and gas and just stop oil- united nations in drilling for new. oil and gas and just stop 0il sprung up oil and gas and just stop 0il sprung up to— oil and gas and just stop 0il sprung up to try— oil and gas and just stop 0il sprung up to try to— oil and gas and just stop 0il sprung up to try to stop _ oil and gas and just stop 0il sprung up to try to stop that. _ oil and gas and just stop 0il sprung up to try to stop that. there - oil and gas and just stop 0il sprung up to try to stop that. there was i oil and gas and just stop 0il sprung up to try to stop that. there was a. up to try to stop that. there was a point _ up to try to stop that. there was a point last— up to try to stop that. there was a point last summer— up to try to stop that. there was a point last summer when _ up to try to stop that. there was a i point last summer when that became too much _ point last summer when that became too much and — point last summer when that became too much and the _ point last summer when that became too much and the conservatives - point last summer when that became too much and the conservatives were using _ too much and the conservatives were using that _ too much and the conservatives were using that against _ too much and the conservatives were using that against labour— too much and the conservatives were using that against labour because - too much and the conservatives were using that against labour because of| using that against labour because of the length, — using that against labour because of the length, and _ using that against labour because of the length, and it— using that against labour because of the length, and it seemed _ using that against labour because of the length, and it seemed to- using that against labour because of the length, and it seemed to me - using that against labour because of| the length, and it seemed to me also the length, and it seemed to me also the doubling — the length, and it seemed to me also the doubling down— the length, and it seemed to me also the doubling down of— the length, and it seemed to me also the doubling down of the _ the length, and it seemed to me also the doubling down of the drilling - the doubling down of the drilling make _ the doubling down of the drilling make the — the doubling down of the drilling make the pro _ the doubling down of the drilling make the pro testing _ the doubling down of the drilling make the pro testing wasn't - the doubling down of the drilling make the pro testing wasn't justj the doubling down of the drilling - make the pro testing wasn'tjust not working. _ make the pro testing wasn'tjust not working. it _ make the pro testing wasn'tjust not working. it was _ make the pro testing wasn'tjust not working, it was having the _ make the pro testing wasn'tjust not working, it was having the oppositel working, it was having the opposite effect _ working, it was having the opposite effect so _ working, it was having the opposite effect so i stopped _ working, it was having the opposite effect so i stopped funding - working, it was having the opposite effect so i stopped funding just- effect so i stopped funding just stop oil and _ effect so i stopped funding just stop oil and started _ effect so i stopped funding just stop oil and started funding. effect so i stopped funding justl stop oil and started funding just effect so i stopped funding just- stop oil and started funding just up the tories _ stop oil and started funding just up the tories is — stop oil and started funding just up the tories is the _ stop oil and started funding just up the tories is the way _ stop oil and started funding just up the tories is the way to _ stop oil and started funding just up the tories is the way to stop - stop oil and started funding just up the tories is the way to stop oil - the tories is the way to stop oil through— the tories is the way to stop oil through the _ the tories is the way to stop oil through the election. _ the tories is the way to stop oil through the election. but- the tories is the way to stop oil through the election.— the tories is the way to stop oil through the election. but you would see through — through the election. but you would see through the _ through the election. but you would see through the mainstream - through the election. but you would see through the mainstream is the l see through the mainstream is the best way to get things done.

reaction was coming and the