after so long in the cold. but how can the new government fix the country with rows raging over pay and perks? with us live for the first time on a sunday morning, the deputy prime minister, angela rayner. welcome to you. it all looks a bit messy, doesn't it? not the start he wanted. we messy, doesn't it? not the start he wanted. ~ . ., ., ~ ., , wanted. we are all working really hard. we will— wanted. we are all working really hard. we will hear _ wanted. we are all working really hard. we will hear more - wanted. we are all working really hard. we will hear more about i wanted. we are all working really i hard. we will hear more about that and ask you _ hard. we will hear more about that and ask you plenty _ hard. we will hear more about that and ask you plenty of _ hard. we will hear more about that and ask you plenty of questions - and ask you plenty of questions later in the programme. for the tories, the shadow leader of the house chris philp is with us from london. and don't miss ourfirstjoint interview with vladimir and evgenia kara—murza.

he is one of putin's fiercest critics and feared for his life while he was locked up in one of the kremlin�*s jails. but now he is free and has been reunited with his wife and has been reunited with his wife and children. they tell us their incredible story. i was woken up, i saw that it was dark. i asked what time it was. they said sam, and they told me to get up and get ready in ten minutes. and at that moment i was absolutely certain that i was being led out to be executed. and with us in liverpool, the housing campaigner kwajo tweneboa, the boss of iceland, richard walker, who was a convert to the labour cause last year. and claire ainsley, who worked for keir starmer during the hard yards of opposition. let's start with what's making the news. no surprise, the mail and the express both splash on downing street rows — a picture of keir starmer and his chief of staff in a corporate box at the football. the observer and the mirror are a bit more friendly —

with the pm vowing no going back to austerity. with the budget fast approaching. the sunday times says our guest angela rayner might have broken the rules over her trip to new york funded by a party donor. and tory leadership contender robertjenrick claims in the telegraph that "terror suspects" are getting into the uk on small boats — he'lljoin us next week. you know all of the characters involved in what is going on here in the first few months of this new government. what is going on? well. government. what is going on? well, it is not an ideal— government. what is going on? well, it is not an ideal start _ government. what is going on? well, it is not an ideal start to _ government. what is going on? -m it is not an ideal start to party conference. i am sure nobody is really pretending in the party that the last week also does not matter. it does matter how the public perceive these kind of things. but as you say, it is the first conference that labour have had in power for 14 years. so conference that labour have had in powerfor 14 years. so i do think conference that labour have had in power for 14 years. so i do think we will start to see much more attention shifted to what is it that the party wants to say to the country about how they plan to fix

the problem is that we have got. but wh do the problem is that we have got. but why do you think that these things have gone wrong? is it growing pains because they are new or is it something more serious? well, i think there _ something more serious? well, i think there has _ something more serious? well, i think there has been _ something more serious? well, i think there has been a _ something more serious? well, i think there has been a bit - something more serious? well, i think there has been a bit of - think there has been a bit of reflection, i think we have seen that in the last few days. i think if anything, that is the thing that you want the party to take from it, which is, even if things are in the rules, how does the public perceive it? it is what labour got so right for so long, was thinking about, how is the public viewing this? if they are going to be the party that is the people's party, then seeing things through their eyes is going to be really important so i hope thatis to be really important so i hope that is the learning that will come from this. , ., , that is the learning that will come from this. , . , , . from this. this time last year, richard, from this. this time last year, richard. you _ from this. this time last year, richard, you told _ from this. this time last year, richard, you told us _ from this. this time last year, richard, you told us that - from this. this time last year, l richard, you told us that labour looked good to you and switched allegiance, at one time you wanted to be a conservative mp, what do you make of their first couple of months in government?— make of their first couple of months in government? well, i mean, there has been a — in government? well, i mean, there has been a bit _ in government? well, i mean, there has been a bit of _ in government? well, i mean, there has been a bit of rolling _ in government? well, i mean, there has been a bit of rolling the - in government? well, i mean, there has been a bit of rolling the pitch - has been a bit of rolling the pitch and expectation management. it is fair to— and expectation management. it is fair to level with the country but it is also— fair to level with the country but it is also good politics, right? but ithink— it is also good politics, right? but i think going forward, we need a vision _ i think going forward, we need a vision you —

i think going forward, we need a vision. you know, we need that hope, we need _ vision. you know, we need that hope, we need bold. — vision. you know, we need that hope, we need bold, confident, clear mission— we need bold, confident, clear mission for the country that actuaiiy— mission for the country that actually is notjust mission for the country that actually is not just about mission for the country that actually is notjust about big, shiny— actually is notjust about big, shiny new things but is stuff that will help— shiny new things but is stuff that will help every community throughout the uk _ will help every community throughout the uk. that is really what i want to see, _ the uk. that is really what i want to see, the — the uk. that is really what i want to see, the equivalent of like harold — to see, the equivalent of like harold wilson's white heat of technology type of speech. that is what we _ technology type of speech. that is what we need now, to start looking up what we need now, to start looking up as_ what we need now, to start looking up as opposed to down. we what we need now, to start looking up as opposed to down.— what we need now, to start looking up as opposed to down. we will talk about all of — up as opposed to down. we will talk about all of these _ up as opposed to down. we will talk about all of these things _ up as opposed to down. we will talk about all of these things with - about all of these things with angela rayner and the perception of the party that has built in the last seven days but you have campaigned so passionately on housing. we have had you on the show before. angela rayner is now in charge of housing policy. if there was one thing you could get her to wave a magic wand and do that is on your list, what would it be? i and do that is on your list, what would it be?— and do that is on your list, what would it be? ~ , , ., would it be? i think probably top of m list at would it be? i think probably top of my list at the _ would it be? i think probably top of my list at the moment _ would it be? i think probably top of my list at the moment is _ would it be? i think probably top of my list at the moment is getting i would it be? i think probably top of| my list at the moment is getting rid of right _ my list at the moment is getting rid of right to— my list at the moment is getting rid of right to buy— my list at the moment is getting rid of right to buy in— my list at the moment is getting rid of right to buy in its _ my list at the moment is getting rid of right to buy in its entirety. - my list at the moment is getting rid of right to buy in its entirety. i- of right to buy in its entirety. i would _ of right to buy in its entirety. i would say— of right to buy in its entirety. i would say that _ of right to buy in its entirety. i would say that is _ of right to buy in its entirety. i would say that is top _ of right to buy in its entirety. i would say that is top of- of right to buy in its entirety. i would say that is top of the - of right to buy in its entirety. i| would say that is top of the list. we will— would say that is top of the list. we will see _ would say that is top of the list. we will see what _ would say that is top of the list. we will see what she _ would say that is top of the list. we will see what she has - would say that is top of the list. we will see what she has to - would say that is top of the list. we will see what she has to say| would say that is top of the list. - we will see what she has to say and we will put that question to her later. great to have you all with us in liverpool and we will get on with the main event.

she's got tons of titles, and a lot of responsibilty. she's deputy prime minister, secretary of state for housing, communities and local government. and angela rayner is also still deputy leader of the labour party. she was elected by the members herself. she's also one of those rare politicians with a reputation for telling it like it is. let's see if she'll do that today. applause. they can't be trusted on brexit, mr speaker, and they can't be trusted on the economy. so, prime minister, how's it going? are you 0k? cheering. are the tories scum? i think that borisjohnson is a racist and misogynist and a homophobic guy and he needs to apologise for the comments he's made in the past. they are going to put up your taxes... that is a lie. ..by £2000. that is a lie.

angela rayner, thank you for being with us this morning. during the election campaign, and then outside downing street, keir starmer said time and again, we will return politics to the service of the people. what part of returning politics to the service of the people involves accepting free outfit�*s? people involves accepting free outfit's? ~ , ., people involves accepting free outfit's? , ., ., ~ , outfit's? well, first of all, mps have accepted _ outfit's? well, first of all, mps have accepted donations - outfit's? well, first of all, mps have accepted donations and l outfit's? well, first of all, mps i have accepted donations and gifts for years, all mps do it. and what we talked about is making sure that we talked about is making sure that we are open and transparent about that, and that was why the prime minister made sure that he corrected the record when he was advised that he needed to do that. he actively pursued that and took that advice and i think that's the right thing to do. we want to make sure that the government are transparent, but gifts and donations have been a factor in our political life for some time. we could have a debate about that, you know, i was from a very working class background, to stand as deputy leader, as you say, to get that position, i had to

accept donations in order for me to run the campaign because it is a very expensive way of doing our politics. what keir starmer was saying in particular around some of the donations, so you can see, the football and security, that should not land on taxpayers, we are very clear on that. but we have to have transparency in the system. but the rules are the _ transparency in the system. but the rules are the rules _ transparency in the system. but the rules are the rules and _ transparency in the system. but the rules are the rules and the - rules are the rules and the perception is a different thing. what part of returning politics to the service of the people involved accepting a free stay in a new york apartment on holiday? first accepting a free stay in a new york apartment on holiday?— apartment on holiday? first of all, i was on holiday _ apartment on holiday? first of all, i was on holiday in _ apartment on holiday? first of all, i was on holiday in new _ apartment on holiday? first of all, i was on holiday in new york, - apartment on holiday? first of all, i was on holiday in new york, i- apartment on holiday? first of all, | i was on holiday in new york, i paid for my holiday. but as friends do, a friend allowed me to stay. i often allow people to stay at mine. but what i felt, i went beyond the rules, is because that person had donated to my deputy leadership who happens to be a friend but is a politician in their own right, i felt i should declare it and i did. you are accepting accommodation from a wealthy labour donor, whether they were a friend or not, what part of that do you think looks acceptable to people watching this morning? i think the important thing is, you

know, somebody allowed me to stay at their apartment for a few days. i decided to declare that because that person is a politician and happens to be a friend, and i stayed there for a couple of days and i felt it was important that people knew i had used the apartment. i don't think it is unusual. people stay at other people's apartments. i think it was right and proper that people could see that relationship and could see that i had used that apartment. i think that is the important thing for me. when people need to know where those donations are coming from. ., ., , from. one thing that has emerged in the sunday times _ from. one thing that has emerged in the sunday times this _ from. one thing that has emerged in the sunday times this morning - from. one thing that has emerged in the sunday times this morning if - from. one thing that has emerged in j the sunday times this morning if you went to new york with someone who was another labour mp, sam tarry, and the rules state that this needs to be registered if it was part or all of the visit was paid for by someone else and you did not register that. so you won't transparent about that. did you break the rules?— break the rules? first of all, i didn't go _ break the rules? first of all, i didn't go to — break the rules? first of all, i didn't go to new— break the rules? first of all, i didn't go to new york - break the rules? first of all, i didn't go to new york with . break the rules? first of all, i - didn't go to new york with another person. that person went to new york and i met up with them and a number of friends while i was in new york. it was a personal holiday and i think i followed the rules. in fact, i went above that and i wanted to do

that, to be transparent about the connection that i had of the use of that apartment. but connection that i had of the use of that apartment.— connection that i had of the use of that apartment. but they stayed in that apartment. but they stayed in that apartment. — that apartment. but they stayed in that apartment, sam _ that apartment. but they stayed in that apartment, sam tarry, - that apartment. but they stayed in that apartment, sam tarry, who i that apartment. but they stayed in i that apartment, sam tarry, who used to be that —— used to be a labour mp, stayed in that apartment and you did not declare it. did you break the rules? i did not declare it. did you break the rules?_ did not declare it. did you break the rules? ., �* , , the rules? i don't believe i broke any rules- _ the rules? i don't believe i broke any rules- i— the rules? i don't believe i broke any rules. i had _ the rules? i don't believe i broke any rules. i had the _ the rules? i don't believe i broke any rules. i had the use - the rules? i don't believe i broke any rules. i had the use of- the rules? i don't believe i broke any rules. i had the use of the i any rules. i had the use of the apartment and i disclose that. in fact, i think i was overly transparent because i think it was important, despite it being a personal holiday, because that personal holiday, because that person as a friend had already donated to me in the past for my deputy leadership. 50 donated to me in the past for my deputy leadership.— donated to me in the past for my deputy leadership. so you are not sor for deputy leadership. so you are not sorry for doing — deputy leadership. so you are not sorry for doing that, _ deputy leadership. so you are not sorry for doing that, you - deputy leadership. so you are not sorry for doing that, you are i deputy leadership. so you are not sorry for doing that, you are not l sorry for doing that, you are not saying to people this morning, you know what, maybe that was a misjudgment, maybe i should have declared absolutely everything, because the rules, i will read that to our viewers, members should register in this category any visit, whether accompanying the member or not. it says pretty clearly, if someone else is with you, you are meant to declare it and you didn't. it says if you are on parliamentary business or if it is in connection

with your parliamentary duties, that is how i understood it. it was a private holiday that i think it was important that people knew, because i had had a relationship where i had had a donation from that individual, a substantial donation, to help me towards becoming the deputy leader, because i had to run my campaign. i thought it was important that people knew i had used their apartment for a couple of days. i paid for the holiday myself. the other person, independently, paid for theirs and did whatever they were doing. i disclosed what i felt was the right thing to do. but disclosed what i felt was the right thing to do— thing to do. but there is a big difference _ thing to do. but there is a big difference between _ thing to do. but there is a big difference between taking i thing to do. but there is a big i difference between taking money to run a political campaign, to pay for leaflets or researchers, to pay for the kind of campaigning work that politicians all have to do. that is not the same as accepting accommodation for a holiday. it is not the same as taking £2230 worth of clothes directly from a clothing company, and that company then

getting publicity as a result. you did that. are you sorry that you did that? i did that. are you sorry that you did that? ., . ., , that? i have reflected on my donations. _ that? i have reflected on my donations. i— that? i have reflected on my donations. i have _ that? i have reflected on my donations. i have been i that? i have reflected on my donations. i have been very| donations. i have been very transparent about the donations i had. i stayed at someone's apartment. had. i stayed at someone's apartment-— had. i stayed at someone's apartment. had. i stayed at someone's aartment. ~ ., ., ,, ., apartment. we have talked about that. and apartment. we have talked about that- and i— apartment. we have talked about that. and | did _ apartment. we have talked about that. and | did that— apartment. we have talked about that. and i did that and _ apartment. we have talked about that. and i did that and i - apartment. we have talked about| that. and i did that and i disclosed it. in that. and i did that and i disclosed it- in terms _ that. and i did that and i disclosed it. in terms of— that. and i did that and i disclosed it. in terms of the _ that. and i did that and i disclosed it. in terms of the donation i i that. and i did that and i disclosed it. in terms of the donation i had l it. in terms of the donation i had from a clothing company, again, i put that out in the public domain and i made sure that people understood that that is where i got that clothing from. i get that people are frustrated, in particular in the circumstances that we are in but donations for gifts and hospitality, and, you know, monetary donations, has been a feature of our politics for a very long time. people can look it up and can see what people have had donations for and the transparency is really important. and the transparency is really important-— and the transparency is really important. and the transparency is really imortant. �* ., ., important. but you are saying to --eole, important. but you are saying to people, basically, _ important. but you are saying to people, basically, suck- important. but you are saying to people, basically, suck this i important. but you are saying to people, basically, suck this up, | people, basically, suck this up, we're going to carry on doing it because it has been like this forever. i because it has been like this forever. ., ., ., forever. i am not saying that, i get that people — forever. i am not saying that, i get that people are _ forever. i am not saying that, i get that people are angry _ forever. i am not saying that, i get that people are angry and - forever. i am not saying that, i get that people are angry and upset. i forever. i am not saying that, i get l that people are angry and upset. but ou are that people are angry and upset. but you are not going to change the

rules? i you are not going to change the rules? ~' ., , . , you are not going to change the rules? ~' ., , 3 , rules? i think the transparency is there, so people _ rules? i think the transparency is there, so people can _ rules? i think the transparency is there, so people can see - rules? i think the transparency is there, so people can see that. i rules? i think the transparency is i there, so people can see that. now, if there is a national debate about how we fund politics, and how we do that, that is another thing and i hear that people are frustrated with that but we have a system at the moment that says, if you get donations, that has to be declared, and the rules have to apply to everybody. i think that is correct so that people can see where you have had donations and where that potential influence is so that people can see the transparency. you ma have people can see the transparency. you may have been transparent about it and actually, some of your donations that turned out to be four clothes were listed as being generic, so they were not completely out there in the public domain but you say you get that people are frustrated. i want to let you know how angry some of our viewers have been and have been over this last week. when the e—mails, saying, it is extraordinary behaviour to accept clothing donations when the government feels justified to remove winter payments to pensioners. eileen said, it is morally indefensible for politicians to be doing this. peter called easy

goody party, and clive, who was a labour party member, said, ifind it deeply disappointing that labour seems no different from the tories when it comes to freebies. are we expected to believe that the donors get nothing in return? lord ali gave you individually more than £20,000. what did you promise or give him in return? i what did you promise or give him in return? . ., . what did you promise or give him in return? , ., . ., what did you promise or give him in return? , ., , ., ., ., return? i promise to nothing and ave him return? i promise to nothing and gave him nothing _ return? i promise to nothing and gave him nothing in _ return? i promise to nothing and gave him nothing in return. i return? i promise to nothing and gave him nothing in return. -- l return? i promise to nothing and gave him nothing in return. -- i| gave him nothing in return. —— i promised nothing. what donors that have helped me in the past have done, had seen someone that has come from a very working—class back ground, and as you said before, i say it how it is and i've always tried to fight for people and since having the honour and privilege of being the deputy prime minister and the secretary of state for housing, i have got a significant number of bills in the kings speech because i want to improve people's housing and get on with the job of supporting people. a feature of our politics at the moment is, for me to stand as the moment is, for me to stand as the deputy leader, and you are seeing the leadership contest at the

moment in the conservative party, they will be getting donations to enable them to continue that work, thatis enable them to continue that work, that is a feat at the moment of our politics. that is why transparency is really important. but politics. that is why transparency is really important.— is really important. but lord ali not a is really important. but lord ali got a downing _ is really important. but lord ali got a downing street _ is really important. but lord ali got a downing street pass i is really important. but lord ali | got a downing street pass which is really important. but lord ali i got a downing street pass which gave him incredibly privileged access. i think a lot of people would imagine thatis think a lot of people would imagine that is the kind of thing you would have been absolutely kicking off about if you had still been in opposition. who signed off lord ali getting a pass? i opposition. who signed off lord ali getting a pass?— getting a pass? i don't know and i didn't see lord _ getting a pass? i don't know and i didn't see lord ali _ getting a pass? i don't know and i didn't see lord ali in _ getting a pass? i don't know and i didn't see lord ali in that - getting a pass? i don't know and i didn't see lord ali in that period l didn't see lord ali in that period so i don't know about that. i did not see him in parliament or a number 10. not see him in parliament or a numberio. i have been not see him in parliament or a number 10. i have been getting on with thejob number 10. i have been getting on with the job and i don't know about who gave him a pass. it certainly wasn't because of any donations he gave to me. i wasn't because of any donations he gave to me— gave to me. i think the issue here is some people — gave to me. i think the issue here is some people see _ gave to me. i think the issue here is some people see a _ gave to me. i think the issue here is some people see a double i gave to me. i think the issue here i is some people see a double standard because the several years the labour party very successfully created a story a rou nd party very successfully created a story around tory sleaze and cronyism and corruption. you yourself said, we need to know what these donors were promised or expected in return for their generosity. that was you saying that. . . generosity. that was you saying that. ., ., ., ., ., that. yeah, and laura, we saw that vip fast lanes _

that. yeah, and laura, we saw that vip fast lanes on _ that. yeah, and laura, we saw that vip fast lanes on taxpayers - that. yeah, and laura, we saw that| vip fast lanes on taxpayers money, billions of pounds wasted during the covid pandemic, these are individual donations. nobody is being given billions of pound contracts, millions of pounds contract as a result. that is the distinction for me, is that people were given jobs, in executive roles, people were given, you know, contracts worth billions of pounds when we did not actually see the benefits of that. that is the distinction for me. but the transparency, you are absolutely right and i absolutely believe the public want that, in terms of, where is the money coming from? lots of viewers welcomed the transparency but they say why do politicians get free stuff at all and end of story. another has emerged on the front page of the mail on sunday this morning with her —— keir starmer with his chief of staff sue gray. there has been a lot of finger pointing at her in the last few days. a lot of chatter here at the conference that she maybe

part of the problem here. will she still be in herjob by christmas? i don't accept that sue gray is part of a problem at all actually and i don't accept the caricature of how to number ten is working. we have had a lot of bills to get through. we had the grand fell face to report out, which i worked with the prime minister and his chief of staff and they were incredibly supportive of how we take forward that important piece of work. there has been a lot of work where we have been working together to make sure that we get our first steps enacted so that we can do what the british people want to do and that is change. so i don't accept the caricature. i am in number ten, accept the caricature. i am in numberten, i go in accept the caricature. i am in number ten, i go in at 8:30am every single morning and i do not see that and i do not see this caricature that somehow we are all fighting over mansions or all at loggerheads with each other. actually, we all really focused on making sure we deliver because that is what people are going to ask in a few years pass time. is labour change in the country for the better? and we are

determined to make sure we answer that question. idistill determined to make sure we answer that question-— that question. will sue gray still be in her job _ that question. will sue gray still be in herjob by _ that question. will sue gray still be in herjob by christmas? i. that question. will sue gray still l be in herjob by christmas? i think be in her 'ob by christmas? i think so. sue be in herjob by christmas? i think so- sue gray _ be in herjob by christmas? i think so. sue gray has _ be in herjob by christmas? i think so. sue gray has been _ be in herjob by christmas? i think so. sue gray has been doing i be in herjob by christmas? i think so. sue gray has been doing an i so. sue gray has been doing an incrediblejob and she so. sue gray has been doing an incredible job and she has a huge amount of respect amongst the cabinet. it angers me as someone who has been a trade human rep —— trade union rep in the past and that somehow it is ok to demonise workers in their workplace through the press and the media. i think sue gray has done an exceptionaljob and we are all working together to achieve for the british people. let’s all working together to achieve for the british people.— all working together to achieve for the british people. let's talk about some of the _ the british people. let's talk about some of the things _ the british people. let's talk about some of the things that _ the british people. let's talk about some of the things that people i the british people. let's talk about | some of the things that people want you to get on with. you are responsible for housing. it is a huge problem for so many of our viewers, 70 people in the country. you have promised to build 1.5 million homes by the end of this parliament. how many of them will be social housing or council housing? it very much depends on how they built. there are golden rules for if you want to go on what i call the grey belt, which i have defined in the national policy planning framework which has been out for consultation at the moment. that

will have a percentage of affordable and social housing. and it very much depends on the site. but what i have also said is i expect more from what we call on 06 notices which is around the affordability tester making sure that developers —— the 106 notices. that developers build the houses delay affordable houses that people expect. i the houses delay affordable houses that people expect.— the houses delay affordable houses that people expect. i know you care very passionately — that people expect. i know you care very passionately about _ that people expect. i know you care very passionately about this - that people expect. i know you care very passionately about this issue l very passionately about this issue but there is more than a million people waiting for social housing. so do you have a target of how many of the new houses you are promising will actually be available for council tenants? i will actually be available for council tenants?— council tenants? i think it is really difficult _ council tenants? i think it is really difficult to _ council tenants? i think it is really difficult to put - council tenants? i think it is really difficult to put an i council tenants? i think it is. really difficult to put an exact target on that because as i say it depends whether it is through a new town, through access on a site with grey belt or whether it is an urban site and it very much depends on the site. but what i do want to see is the biggest wave of council housing for a generation and that is what i want to be measured on. what for a generation and that is what i want to be measured on.- for a generation and that is what i want to be measured on. what is a

bi wave want to be measured on. what is a big wave then? _ want to be measured on. what is a big wave then? you _ want to be measured on. what is a big wave then? you say _ want to be measured on. what is a big wave then? you say you i want to be measured on. what is a big wave then? you say you want l want to be measured on. what is a| big wave then? you say you want to be measured but you won't put the number on it. there are a million people waiting for council housing and social housing. can you give us and social housing. can you give us a proportion of what you would expect? the biggest wave doesn't mean anything without any sense of a number on it. it mean anything without any sense of a number on it— number on it. it will mean something because there _ number on it. it will mean something because there are _ number on it. it will mean something because there are a _ number on it. it will mean something because there are a couple _ number on it. it will mean something because there are a couple of- because there are a couple of changes we're making. we will increase significantly the number of council social housing... but increase significantly the number of council social housing. . ._ increase significantly the number of council social housing... but by how much? as we _ council social housing... but by how much? as we said _ council social housing... but by how much? as we said before, - council social housing. .. but by how much? as we said before, as- council social housing... but by how much? as we said before, as with i much? as we said before, as with thins much? as we said before, as with things around _ much? as we said before, as with things around right _ much? as we said before, as with things around right to _ much? as we said before, as with things around right to bite - much? as we said before, as with things around right to bite we i much? as we said before, as with things around right to bite we are| things around right to bite we are reviewing that are making sure that we are not losing council houses at the rate we are now are not replacing them. we are doing the consultation. there are a number of things we are doing that will fix the system to make sure that we get more council and social housing. i want to pressure a bit more on the number because if there isn't a target about something you say you care about. often in government if there isn't a number... the care about. often in government if there isn't a number. . ._ care about. often in government if there isn't a number... the reason i won't ut there isn't a number... the reason i won't put an — there isn't a number... the reason i won't put an exact _ there isn't a number... the reason i won't put an exact figure _ there isn't a number... the reason i won't put an exact figure on - there isn't a number... the reason i won't put an exact figure on it i there isn't a number... the reason i won't put an exact figure on it is i won't put an exact figure on it is because there are so many moving parts that actually dependent on weather sites become available. so like i say, i have my golden rules

for the new towns, i have my rules around the release of grey belt and brownfield sites. they are very different and what we have been very clear on is we want to see more social housing but we also have to stop the amount that we are losing at the rate we are and we are not able to replace them as white so why not get rid of right to buy immediately. if you have lived in a house for a very long time and you have been paying rent that is your home and you have raise your children in it i don't believe you shouldn't have the right to buy that has to be balance as well. the changes that the previous government made has made it a lot easier with a huge discount for people to buy the social housing and we just cannot replace them. and therefore i have started a consultation because i believe that we should make it more ferret to the taxpayer, who help fund social housing, so that we don't lose the sites as quickly as we are. �* , ., don't lose the sites as quickly as we are. �* y., ., �* ., ~ we are. but you wouldn't make it harder for— we are. but you wouldn't make it harder for people _ we are. but you wouldn't make it harder for people to _ we are. but you wouldn't make it harder for people to buy - we are. but you wouldn't make it harder for people to buy a i we are. but you wouldn't make it| harder for people to buy a council house even though you benefited from it yourself.

house even though you benefited from it ourself. , ., , it yourself. under the previous rules i benefited _ it yourself. under the previous rules i benefited from - it yourself. under the previous rules i benefited from it i it yourself. under the previous rules i benefited from it and i it yourself. under the previous rules i benefited from it and it| it yourself. under the previous i rules i benefited from it and it is incredibly important to me. i can't tell you in words what it meant to me. i lived in council houses all my life. to be able to buy that property was incredibly important. but the changes that the government made made it so that people could get a bigger discount quicker and we can't replace that stock at the moment at the rate we need to. and therefore that is why we are consulting to have a fair system that says if you have lived in the house for a long time, it is your family home, you can get a discount but it has to be levelled against and balance against replacing that stock. it and balance against replacing that stock. , ., , stock. it is a complicated thing the housin: stock. it is a complicated thing the housing market _ stock. it is a complicated thing the housing market and _ stock. it is a complicated thing the housing market and you're - stock. it is a complicated thing the | housing market and you're bringing quite a complicated set of reforms and you can hope that it will all together in a big sort ofjigsaw to increase the number of houses that are being built. but if you are falling behind, if you are miles of your ambition of getting 1.5 million homes built by the end of this parliament, will the government ever actually step in and do it

themselves? i actually step in and do it themselves?— actually step in and do it themselves? ., �* ~ themselves? i don't think i will fall behind. — themselves? i don't think i will fall behind. people _ themselves? i don't think i will fall behind. people have i fall behind. people have underestimated me all my life and i have been very clear, people have been very critical of my mandatory targets for example. they are significantly higher up and that is because i am making it clear to local authorities, working through devolution on housing with our mayors as well. and with developers to say we have to get britain building, so a lot of the reforms are making now and the proposals is about saying we need that housing. we have all spoke about it for a very long time and we are going to deliver it together. bud very long time and we are going to deliver it together.— deliver it together. and this is the cuestion, deliver it together. and this is the question. you _ deliver it together. and this is the question, you can _ deliver it together. and this is the question, you can say _ deliver it together. and this is the question, you can say that - deliver it together. and this is the l question, you can say that previous governments have done that we want more houses built but planning approval is actually at a record low at the moment. you are doing consultations, calls for evidence, things that might work in future but you have got no guarantee that they will. so i will ask you again, if you fall behind, if it looks like this isn't going to happen, will you do something that governments used to do in days gone by, they would get the diggers in the ground and

they would get houses built himself. that is what some people believe you might have to do. first that is what some people believe you might have to do.— might have to do. first of all, let me tackle _ might have to do. first of all, let me tackle some _ might have to do. first of all, let me tackle some of— might have to do. first of all, let me tackle some of the _ might have to do. first of all, let me tackle some of the issues i might have to do. first of all, let| me tackle some of the issues that you say about. you absently right in terms of house—building has basically fallen off a cliff, that is because the tories didn't take on, they remove the mandatory housing targets which everyone in the sector has acknowledged has meant that we haven't had the houses built. i believe that a lot of the work i did in preparation for government and working with local authorities working with the sector and the feedback i have had is the proposal is that i'm putting forward. i cannot have it where developers are waiting years to get a planning decision so that they can progress, whether that is through growth in industry and that is why we called in some of those decisions already. whether that is through housing. we are making the houses so that the blockages are taken out of the system was white and you hope it will work but there is a lot of doubt over whether or not the changes you make will have such a radical impact and actually get space in the ground and roofs over people's heads. can you see a day

when you as the housing secretary with genuine ambition, clearly, to solve this problem, so do you know what, we need to be much more proactive, we have to do it like governments did in times gone by. if we haven't got anywhere, which i don't believe it will be the case because these are the biggest set of reforms in the system for a very long time and i'm taking on the blocks that are in the system where the tories wouldn't do that. so i think we will get there. but of course you review where you are up to and you have to make the progress. the reforms i have set out already i do believe and it is not because i think so, it is because i have worked very hard with people with skin in the game who do this every day and have said i am waiting years for a development to go through because of xy and z. that is why those decisions have been made to say i want safe and secure good houses that are built but also i am going to take away some of these blockages and make the system more efficient, so that we can get that growth was white we will watch carefully how it progresses. i want

to touch on another couple of things. one of the other huge reforms that labour is bringing in is changing rights for workers and i know it is a passion of yours. now, a year ago at this conference you said i have heard some rumours that we will be watering down our new deal for working we will be watering down our new dealfor working people. now those rumours persist. will there still be workers pass right from day one, as you promised? yes, and we will be put in the legislation forward next month. i said that we will have the biggest reforms to work as's rights for a generation and we will bring the legislation forward within the first 100 days. i'm determined to do that. as you know, i'm one of these people that is absently focused, if i have a job to do i will do it. i have been working with business and working with... i even got business and the trade unions in the same room to deliver on these packages, so when the wheel hits the tyre that when the aspiration goes into application, is that we are making sure that we are able to deliver

that and we will be delivering that so that people will see better work as's rights, the most improved workers�*s rights for a generation. as you say, this is my number one mission, one of the things i feel so passionate about. as someone who worked as a casual worker, that didn't have the protections when i first went into the workplace. i know how important this is. quite a lot of businesses _ know how important this is. quite a lot of businesses are _ know how important this is. quite a lot of businesses are quite - know how important this is. quite a lot of businesses are quite nervy i lot of businesses are quite nervy about it but we will see when that legislation arrives probably in the next ten days or so. you will have seen like many people all the revelations about the former harrods boss mohamed al fayed. was it a mistake that the cps didn't prosecute him? i mistake that the cps didn't prosecute him?— mistake that the cps didn't prosecute him? mistake that the cps didn't rosecute him? ~' ,, ., , prosecute him? i think the cps has said that they _ prosecute him? i think the cps has said that they didn't _ prosecute him? i think the cps has said that they didn't have - prosecute him? i think the cps has said that they didn't have the i said that they didn't have the evidence at the time. i'm not au fait with all of the details but what really concerns me and it seems to come up time and time again is powerful people, who seem to get away with it. and that is why the workers' rights, employment rights and our mission and focus on the judiciary system to improve that, especially around violence for women and girls. i think there is a lot of

work that needs to be done to make sure that nobody is above the law and can hide in plain sight. if people have done wrong, that power imbalance that you see quite often, where we have seen in westminster, we have seen in the bbc, we have seen it now talked about in harrods, we have to find a system that means that people are able to come forward, that nobody is above the law and that people are able to express some of what has been said is horrifying. and it seems to have gone on for a very long time on the question for us as a government is how do we make sure that women are not put in a situation, or anyone who is vulnerable, is put in a situation where because somebody is considered very powerful that they can't be challenged. because what we have had is years and years of people constantly being abused or treated absolutely disgracefully. where as if somebody had intervened earlier, if that person was listened to, we could have prevented that. i think people are very interested in you as a politician, angela rayner.

you once said to me and other journalist that you are like john prescott in a skirt. he had been a bit of a reputation as been a thorn in the side of tony blair. are you a pain to make sure that labour is is doing what you want? i pain to make sure that labour is is doing what you want?— pain to make sure that labour is is doing what you want? i have learned that sometimes _ doing what you want? i have learned that sometimes there _ doing what you want? i have learned that sometimes there is _ doing what you want? i have learned that sometimes there is a _ doing what you want? i have learned that sometimes there is a carrot i doing what you want? i have learned that sometimes there is a carrot and j that sometimes there is a carrot and stick approach. being a pain all the time doesn't necessarily get you what you want to achieve. i have been very focused, i mean, it is an incredible honour for been very focused, i mean, it is an incredible honourfor me been very focused, i mean, it is an incredible honour for me to been very focused, i mean, it is an incredible honourfor me to be been very focused, i mean, it is an incredible honour for me to be the deputy prime minister and be in the job that i am in. i want to make sure that people have good, secure homes and they have a good, secure employment. and i'm really focused on that. and i will be pushy when i need to be pushy but i will also be collegian and work with people because nobody can do it on their own. we are a team, our cabinet is a team, i'm working with all levers of government to deliver that the people of britain was white there are sometimes suggestions that you are sometimes suggestions that you are being a bit pushed out are your influences sometimes a bit ignored. what are you willing to do if you feel you are being ignored? i hear

this nonsense in the news that i am being pushed out. i've had this ever since i was elected as deputy leader. i am since i was elected as deputy leader. iam not since i was elected as deputy leader. i am not being pushed out, i don't feel pushed out. i feel like we work as a really good team. we did a lot of that preparation when we were in opposition and we are working together. for instance, if i want good houses, transport is important, help is important, so i have to work with my colleagues and we working together to deliver that. angela rayner, it has been great having you with us for the first time this morning. thank you very much for being here with us in liverpool. what do you think? let us know email us at kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk or on social use the hashtag bbclaurak and we'll try and share some of of the converation later in the show or in my thursday letter. claire ainsley, you said before use to work the keir starmer in opposition. you said it is really important that labour hear what people are saying about donations. angela rayner very much sticking to the idea that if it is transparent, if it is out there, it is ok. what did you make of that? you if it is out there, it is ok. what did you make of that? you read those

e-mails out — did you make of that? you read those e-mails out from _ did you make of that? you read those e-mails out from viewers _ did you make of that? you read those e-mails out from viewers and - did you make of that? you read those e-mails out from viewers and i i did you make of that? you read those e-mails out from viewers and i think. e—mails out from viewers and i think i'd probably do reflect what people feel about it. so i don't think it is right that anyone should say that it is not an issue. of course you are right to press the deputy prime minister on the questions that you did. ithink minister on the questions that you did. i think what i heard is that labour have reflected clearly, they have made some changes and i hope they will be occupied the next few days getting a positive message out to the country. but i hope they do reflect on what has happened over the past few days and really think about how the public might view all of this and make sure that they take this opportunity. because trust in politics is so low. we have come through a period where people have really felt that they don't trust any politicians. labour have been elected on this historic land style. what an option to now to be politics in a different way was white that is what they hope to do and we have heard keir starmer say lots of times that i know people are cynical, i want to show than politics can be forced a good saying that donations were ok because it is what has

always happened. i5 were ok because it is what has always happened.— were ok because it is what has always happened. is that going to wash, richard? _ i think ithinka i think a lot of people are feeling disillusioned with politics and that they don't have a stake in society. stuff _ they don't have a stake in society. stuff like — they don't have a stake in society. stuff like this, it should be irrelevant, you know, but some people — irrelevant, you know, but some people obviously are really quite indignant about this and they do care _ indignant about this and they do care i_ indignant about this and they do care. i think some opposition politicians are failing the dignity. surely— politicians are failing the dignity. surely a — politicians are failing the dignity. surely a politician would never prevent a big cross but something? i don't care who buys his spectacles as long _ don't care who buys his spectacles as long as— don't care who buys his spectacles as long as it is not putin. there are way— as long as it is not putin. there are way bigger dues out there, from the 45— are way bigger dues out there, from the 4.5 million kids in poverty, to have _ the 4.5 million kids in poverty, to have more — the 4.5 million kids in poverty, to have more food banks, to ecosystem collapse. _ have more food banks, to ecosystem collapse. to — have more food banks, to ecosystem collapse, to to in the rivers and oceans — collapse, to to in the rivers and oceans and _ collapse, to to in the rivers and oceans and the fact we are not going as an _ oceans and the fact we are not going as an economy. you oceans and the fact we are not going as an economy-— as an economy. you know what is auoin on as an economy. you know what is going on in _ as an economy. you know what is going on in people _ as an economy. you know what is going on in people spending i as an economy. you know what is. going on in people spending better than anyone else in the country but listening to angela rayner on

housing, there,, they are active, lots of things are happening, kwajo, but it seems a bit that they can't guarantee that they are going to be able to hit any of their targets, what do you make of how she is approaching it? the what do you make of how she is approaching it?— what do you make of how she is approaching it? the last ten weeks have been interesting, _ approaching it? the last ten weeks have been interesting, i— approaching it? the last ten weeks have been interesting, i have - approaching it? the last ten weeks have been interesting, i have to i have been interesting, i have to remind — have been interesting, i have to remind myself— have been interesting, i have to remind myself it _ have been interesting, i have to remind myself it has— have been interesting, i have to remind myself it has only - have been interesting, i have to remind myself it has only beenl have been interesting, i have to. remind myself it has only been ten or ii remind myself it has only been ten or 11 week — remind myself it has only been ten or 11 week. , ~ remind myself it has only been ten or 11 week-— or 11 week. does it feel like longer than that already? _ or 11 week. does it feel like longer than that already? i'm _ or 11 week. does it feel like longer than that already? i'm like, - or 11 week. does it feel like longer than that already? i'm like, i- or 11 week. does it feel like longer than that already? i'm like, i want this dealt with _ than that already? i'm like, i want this dealt with as _ than that already? i'm like, i want this dealt with as quickly - than that already? i'm like, i want this dealt with as quickly as - this dealt with as quickly as possibla _ this dealt with as quickly as possible. there _ this dealt with as quickly as possible. there are - this dealt with as quickly as possible. there are some . this dealt with as quickly as - possible. there are some positives in there. _ possible. there are some positives in there, absolutely, _ possible. there are some positives in there, absolutely, in— possible. there are some positives in there, absolutely, in terms - possible. there are some positives in there, absolutely, in terms of. in there, absolutely, in terms of the quality— in there, absolutely, in terms of the quality of— in there, absolutely, in terms of the quality of phones _ in there, absolutely, in terms of the quality of phones i - in there, absolutely, in terms of the quality of phones i think- in there, absolutely, in terms of the quality of phones i think she hits the — the quality of phones i think she hits the nail— the quality of phones i think she hits the nail on _ the quality of phones i think she hits the nail on the _ the quality of phones i think she hits the nail on the but - the quality of phones i think she hits the nail on the but rights i the quality of phones i think she hits the nail on the but rights to| hits the nail on the but rights to buy absolutely _ hits the nail on the but rights to buy absolutely has _ hits the nail on the but rights to buy absolutely has to _ hits the nail on the but rights to buy absolutely has to go - hits the nail on the but rights to buy absolutely has to go and . hits the nail on the but rights to| buy absolutely has to go and i'm hits the nail on the but rights to . buy absolutely has to go and i'm so determined — buy absolutely has to go and i'm so determined to _ buy absolutely has to go and i'm so determined to make _ buy absolutely has to go and i'm so determined to make that _ buy absolutely has to go and i'm so determined to make that point. - buy absolutely has to go and i'm so determined to make that point. we have 13— determined to make that point. we have 1.3 million— determined to make that point. we have 1.3 million people _ determined to make that point. we have 1.3 million people on - determined to make that point. we have 1.3 million people on the - have1.3 million people on the couneit— have 1.3 million people on the council house _ have 1.3 million people on the council house waiting - have 1.3 million people on the council house waiting list - have 1.3 million people on the council house waiting list and i council house waiting list and 151,000 — council house waiting list and 151,000 homeless— council house waiting list and 151,000 homeless kids - council house waiting list and 151,000 homeless kids in - council house waiting list and i 151,000 homeless kids in alone, council house waiting list and - 151,000 homeless kids in alone, the highest _ 151,000 homeless kids in alone, the highest on _ 151,000 homeless kids in alone, the highest on record _ 151,000 homeless kids in alone, the highest on record and _ 151,000 homeless kids in alone, the highest on record and enough- highest on record and enough homeless _ highest on record and enough homeless kids— highest on record and enough homeless kids to _ highest on record and enough homeless kids to fill - highest on record and enough homeless kids to fill the - highest on record and enough homeless kids to fill the 02 l highest on record and enough- homeless kids to fill the 02 arena more _ homeless kids to fill the 02 arena more than — homeless kids to fill the 02 arena more than seven _ homeless kids to fill the 02 arena more than seven times _ homeless kids to fill the 02 arena more than seven times owner. - homeless kids to fill the 02 arena l more than seven times owner. they are waiting — more than seven times owner. they are waiting for — more than seven times owner. they are waiting for social— more than seven times owner. they are waiting for social housing - more than seven times owner. they are waiting for social housing and i are waiting for social housing and couneit— are waiting for social housing and council housing. _ are waiting for social housing and council housing. angela - are waiting for social housing and council housing. angela and - are waiting for social housing and council housing. angela and the i council housing. angela and the party— council housing. angela and the party talk— council housing. angela and the party talk about _ council housing. angela and the party talk about the _ council housing. angela and the party talk about the biggest - party talk about the biggest injection— party talk about the biggest injection of— party talk about the biggest injection of council- party talk about the biggest injection of council homes l party talk about the biggestl injection of council homes in party talk about the biggest. injection of council homes in a generation— injection of council homes in a generation but— injection of council homes in a generation but in— injection of council homes in a generation but in the - injection of council homes in a generation but in the same i injection of council homes in a - generation but in the same sentence, we can't _ generation but in the same sentence, we can't continue _ generation but in the same sentence, we can't continue talking _ generation but in the same sentence, we can't continue talking about - we can't continue talking about setting — we can't continue talking about setting it — we can't continue talking about setting it off, _ we can't continue talking about selling it off, why _ we can't continue talking about selling it off, why are - we can't continue talking about selling it off, why are we - we can't continue talking about. selling it off, why are we bothering fitting _ selling it off, why are we bothering fitting a _ selling it off, why are we bothering fitting a leaky— selling it off, why are we bothering filling a leaky bucket? _ selling it off, why are we bothering filling a leaky bucket? it _ selling it off, why are we bothering filling a leaky bucket? it is - selling it off, why are we bothering filling a leaky bucket? it is a - selling it off, why are we bothering filling a leaky bucket? it is a hugel filling a leaky bucket? it is a huge problem _ filling a leaky bucket? it is a huge problem and _ filling a leaky bucket? it is a huge problem and i_ filling a leaky bucket? it is a huge problem and i think— filling a leaky bucket? it is a huge problem and i think the _ filling a leaky bucket? it is a huge problem and i think the right- filling a leaky bucket? it is a huge problem and i think the right to l filling a leaky bucket? it is a huge . problem and i think the right to buy scheme _

problem and i think the right to buy scheme has — problem and i think the right to buy scheme has been _ problem and i think the right to buy scheme has been the _ problem and i think the right to buy scheme has been the most - problem and i think the right to buyl scheme has been the most damaging policy. _ scheme has been the most damaging policy, introduced _ scheme has been the most damaging policy, introduced in— scheme has been the most damaging policy, introduced in respect- scheme has been the most damaging policy, introduced in respect of- policy, introduced in respect of social— policy, introduced in respect of social housing, _ policy, introduced in respect of social housing, ever. _ policy, introduced in respect of social housing, ever. i- policy, introduced in respect of social housing, ever. i think. policy, introduced in respect of social housing, ever. i think it| policy, introduced in respect of. social housing, ever. i think it has to go _ social housing, ever. i think it has to go in— social housing, ever. i think it has to go interms— social housing, ever. i think it has to go. in terms of— social housing, ever. i think it has to go. in terms of what _ social housing, ever. i think it has to go. in terms of what angela - social housing, ever. i think it hasl to go. in terms of what angela was saying _ to go. in terms of what angela was saying about — to go. in terms of what angela was saying about offering _ to go. in terms of what angela was| saying about offering working—class people _ saying about offering working—class people the — saying about offering working—class people the opportunity— saying about offering working—class people the opportunity to _ saying about offering working—class people the opportunity to buy- saying about offering working—class people the opportunity to buy their| people the opportunity to buy their home: _ people the opportunity to buy their home, they— people the opportunity to buy their home, they can— home, they can still do that outside of social housing, _ home, they can still do that outside of social housing, they— home, they can still do that outside of social housing, they can - home, they can still do that outside of social housing, they can offer - home, they can still do that outside of social housing, they can offer ani of social housing, they can offer an alternative — of social housing, they can offer an alternative and _ of social housing, they can offer an alternative and that _ of social housing, they can offer an alternative and that is _ of social housing, they can offer an alternative and that is what - of social housing, they can offer an alternative and that is what i - of social housing, they can offer an alternative and that is what i thinkl alternative and that is what i think the lahour— alternative and that is what i think the labour party— alternative and that is what i think the labour party should _ alternative and that is what i think the labour party should be - alternative and that is what i think the labour party should be doing. | the labour party should be doing. what _ the labour party should be doing. what about— the labour party should be doing. what about building _ the labour party should be doing. what about building social- the labour party should be doing. i what about building social housing though? it is interesting and i think it is significant, they say they want the biggest wave ever but they want the biggest wave ever but they won't give a target and the government is not going to build any council housing itself so do you think they will have to step in? i do, at some point, 1.3 million people — do, at some point, 1.3 million people waiting _ do, at some point, 1.3 million people waiting to _ do, at some point, 1.3 million people waiting to get - do, at some point, 1.3 million people waiting to get into - do, at some point, 1.3 million. people waiting to get into council housing, — people waiting to get into council housing, they— people waiting to get into council housing, they will— people waiting to get into council housing, they will probably- people waiting to get into council housing, they will probably have i people waiting to get into council i housing, they will probably have to step in— housing, they will probably have to step in at— housing, they will probably have to step in at some _ housing, they will probably have to step in at some point _ housing, they will probably have to step in at some point especially . housing, they will probably have to step in at some point especially if. step in at some point especially if they are _ step in at some point especially if they are continuing _ step in at some point especially if they are continuing to _ step in at some point especially if they are continuing to sell- step in at some point especially if they are continuing to sell off - they are continuing to sell off that — they are continuing to sell off that we _ they are continuing to sell off that. we have. _ they are continuing to sell off that. we have. if— they are continuing to sell off that. we have. if you - they are continuing to sell off that. we have. if you speak. they are continuing to sell offi that. we have. if you speak to council— that. we have. if you speak to council leaders _ that. we have. if you speak to council leaders up _ that. we have. if you speak to council leaders up and - that. we have. if you speak to council leaders up and down . that. we have. if you speak to i council leaders up and down the country. — council leaders up and down the country. they— council leaders up and down the country, they will— council leaders up and down the country, they will say— council leaders up and down the country, they will say the - council leaders up and down the country, they will say the same i country, they will say the same thing — country, they will say the same thing that _ country, they will say the same thing that is _ country, they will say the same thing. that is where _ country, they will say the same thing. that is where the - country, they will say the same thing. that is where the heart i country, they will say the same i thing. that is where the heart of the crisis — thing. that is where the heart of the crisis is _ thing. that is where the heart of the crisis is. the _ thing. that is where the heart of the crisis is. the government. thing. that is where the heart of| the crisis is. the government talk about— the crisis is. the government talk about fixing — the crisis is. the government talk about fixing our— the crisis is. the government talk about fixing our foundations - the crisis is. the government talk about fixing our foundations and i the crisis is. the government talki about fixing our foundations and it starts _ about fixing our foundations and it starts with — about fixing our foundations and it starts with social _ about fixing our foundations and it starts with social housing - about fixing our foundations and it starts with social housing because | starts with social housing because it has _ starts with social housing because it has been— starts with social housing because it has been so— starts with social housing because it has been so neglected - starts with social housing because it has been so neglected for- it has been so neglected for generations _ it has been so neglected for generations and _ it has been so neglected for generations and it - it has been so neglected for generations and it is - it has been so neglected for generations and it is forcing it has been so neglected for- generations and it is forcing people because _ generations and it is forcing people because of— generations and it is forcing people because of the _ generations and it is forcing people because of the limited _ generations and it is forcing people because of the limited stock, - generations and it is forcing people because of the limited stock, to . because of the limited stock, to live in— because of the limited stock, to live in diabolical, _ because of the limited stock, to live in diabolical, slum - because of the limited stock, to. live in diabolical, slum conditions and not _

live in diabolical, slum conditions and not only— live in diabolical, slum conditions and not only that, _ live in diabolical, slum conditions and not only that, i— live in diabolical, slum conditions and not only that, i did _ live in diabolical, slum conditions and not only that, i did not- live in diabolical, slum conditions and not only that, i did not get. live in diabolical, slum conditionsj and not only that, i did not get to raise _ and not only that, i did not get to raise the — and not only that, i did not get to raise the question _ and not only that, i did not get to raise the question around - and not only that, i did not get to raise the question around the - raise the question around the quality— raise the question around the quality of— raise the question around the quality of homes _ raise the question around the quality of homes in _ raise the question around the quality of homes in terms - raise the question around the quality of homes in terms of| raise the question around the . quality of homes in terms of new builds— quality of homes in terms of new builds because _ quality of homes in terms of new builds because we _ quality of homes in terms of new builds because we talk _ quality of homes in terms of new builds because we talk about - builds because we talk about existing _ builds because we talk about existing homes _ builds because we talk about existing homes a _ builds because we talk about existing homes a lot - builds because we talk about existing homes a lot but- builds because we talk about| existing homes a lot but what builds because we talk about - existing homes a lot but what about new-builds? — existing homes a lot but what about new-builds? i— existing homes a lot but what about new—builds? i have _ existing homes a lot but what about new—builds? i have been _ existing homes a lot but what about new—builds? i have been into- existing homes a lot but what about new—builds? i have been into new. new—builds? i have been into new bills, _ new—builds? i have been into new bills, only— new—builds? i have been into new bills, only last— new—builds? i have been into new bills, only last week _ new—builds? i have been into new bills, only last week i _ new—builds? i have been into new bills, only last week i went - new—builds? i have been into new bills, only last week i went to - bills, only last week i went to visit _ bills, only last week i went to visit a — bills, only last week i went to visit a new—build _ bills, only last week i went to visit a new—build book- bills, only last week i went to visit a new—build book where i visit a new— build book where residents— visit a new— build book where residents have _ visit a new— build book where residents have been - visit a new— build book where residents have been living i visit a new—build book where i residents have been living there visit a new—build book where - residents have been living there for two years— residents have been living there for two years and — residents have been living there for two years and it _ residents have been living there for two years and it is _ residents have been living there for two years and it is falling _ residents have been living there for two years and it is falling to - residents have been living there for two years and it is falling to bits. i two years and it is falling to bits. what _ two years and it is falling to bits. what are — two years and it is falling to bits. what are they _ two years and it is falling to bits. what are they going _ two years and it is falling to bits. what are they going to _ two years and it is falling to bits. what are they going to do - two years and it is falling to bits. what are they going to do to i two years and it is falling to bits. i what are they going to do to address that? _ what are they going to do to address that? they— what are they going to do to address that? they are — what are they going to do to address that? they are at _ what are they going to do to address that? they are at the _ what are they going to do to address that? they are at the beginning i that? they are at the beginning right— that? they are at the beginning right now— that? they are at the beginning right now and _ that? they are at the beginning right now and they— that? they are at the beginning right now and they don't - that? they are at the beginning right now and they don't want l that? they are at the beginning i right now and they don't want to wait two — right now and they don't want to wait two or— right now and they don't want to wait two or three _ right now and they don't want to wait two or three years - right now and they don't want to wait two or three years to - right now and they don't want to i wait two or three years to realise, some _ wait two or three years to realise, some of— wait two or three years to realise, some of these _ wait two or three years to realise, some of these buildings _ wait two or three years to realise, some of these buildings are - wait two or three years to realise, some of these buildings are not . wait two or three years to realise, | some of these buildings are not of good _ some of these buildings are not of good quality _ some of these buildings are not of good quality-— good quality. there is the thing about case _ good quality. there is the thing about case as _ good quality. there is the thing about case as well, _ good quality. there is the thing about case as well, in - good quality. there is the thing about case as well, in terms i good quality. there is the thing about case as well, in terms of| good quality. there is the thing | about case as well, in terms of a new government and what they can get on with. they can't do everything at the same time but there's been a lot of message about, it is going to be painful and tough, there are difficult decisions. for you as a business leader, richard, is that helpful or not? the business leader, richard, is that helpful or not?— business leader, richard, is that helpful or not? the tonality needs to change. — helpful or not? the tonality needs to change, right? _ helpful or not? the tonality needs to change, right? undoubtedly, . helpful or not? the tonality needs l to change, right? undoubtedly, this is not _ to change, right? undoubtedly, this is not going to be a fun budget for anyone _ is not going to be a fun budget for anyone and actually, those with the broadest— anyone and actually, those with the broadest shoulders, myself included, should _ broadest shoulders, myself included, should carry the burden, of course. but we _ should carry the burden, of course. but we have — should carry the burden, of course. but we have got to make sure that it is done _ but we have got to make sure that it is done in _ but we have got to make sure that it is done in collaboration with business _ is done in collaboration with business because this is about sentiment and positivity and like i

was saying earlier, that vision. but to the _ was saying earlier, that vision. but to the point— was saying earlier, that vision. but to the point on the government stepping — to the point on the government stepping in on housing. we need to separate _ stepping in on housing. we need to separate out the day to day revenue account _ separate out the day to day revenue account versus that long—term capital— account versus that long—term capital investment. and actually, that is— capital investment. and actually, that is not— capital investment. and actually, that is notjust shiny new hydrogen plants, _ that is notjust shiny new hydrogen plants, that is the politics of the ordinary, — plants, that is the politics of the ordinary, everyday lives of people, like the _ ordinary, everyday lives of people, like the high street, like housing. that would unlock further private sector— that would unlock further private sector investment. just that would unlock further private sector investment.— that would unlock further private sector investment. just briefly on workers' sector investment. just briefly on workers rights. _ sector investment. just briefly on workers' rights, and _ sector investment. just briefly on workers' rights, and jill _ sector investment. just briefly on workers' rights, and jill said i sector investment. just briefly on workers' rights, and jill said she l workers' rights, andjill said she had business and unions in the room and everyone is a green, is it all fine. is it all fine? i and everyone is a green, is it all fine. is it all fine?— fine. is it all fine? i think that it is undoubtedly _ fine. is it all fine? i think that it is undoubtedly true - fine. is it all fine? i think that it is undoubtedly true that i fine. is it all fine? i think that i it is undoubtedly true that business is worried _ it is undoubtedly true that business is worried about going too far. but obviously. — is worried about going too far. but obviously. i— is worried about going too far. but obviously, i think workers' rights should _ obviously, i think workers' rights should be — obviously, i think workers' rights should be enhanced wherever possible. i am also pretty confident, having spoken with government, that it will be done in a measured, sensible, tapered way. you know. _ a measured, sensible, tapered way. you know. it — a measured, sensible, tapered way. you know, it is not something i would — you know, it is not something i would be — you know, it is not something i would be concerned about. claire, when ou would be concerned about. claire, when you look— would be concerned about. claire, when you look at _ would be concerned about. claire, when you look at what _ would be concerned about. claire, when you look at what they i would be concerned about. claire, when you look at what they are i when you look at what they are trying to do and the list of

priorities and a political awkwardness and embarrassment of the last seven days, if you are still working on the team, what would you be saying to them? i working on the team, what would you be saying to them?— be saying to them? i think they have icked the be saying to them? i think they have picked the pieces _ be saying to them? i think they have picked the pieces of— be saying to them? i think they have picked the pieces of policy _ be saying to them? i think they have picked the pieces of policy that i be saying to them? i think they have picked the pieces of policy that are l picked the pieces of policy that are going to be strategically most important to getting growth going. if you look at planning, for example, they have picked that because it is going to be so important, notjust about people owning their own homes or being able to live in somewhere decent but because we need it because we need to get the infrastructure built in order to grow the economy. workers�* rights, the best thing we can do about poverty is get people paid properly and that is coming from that legislation. i think they have made some good strategicjudgments about what a front load. the difficulty is, you have got to get things that will land with voters by the time of the next election. if you look in the us election, what harris is struggling with at the moment is finding the proof point of, what have you done for me? that is what they have to be thinking about now stop what if you were to give your boss marks out of ten for his first few months in office, what

would it be? i�*m not going to give him a mark out of ten! he got off onto a really good start and he has reset international relationships so i think some of the big picture stuff, they are doing really well but there will be some team meetings next week, i am sure. i am but there will be some team meetings next week, i am sure.— next week, i am sure. i am sure they will be -- — next week, i am sure. i am sure they will be -- there _ next week, i am sure. i am sure they will be -- there will— next week, i am sure. i am sure they will be -- there will be. _ next week, i am sure. i am sure they will be -- there will be. thank i next week, i am sure. i am sure they will be -- there will be. thank you i will be —— there will be. thank you for now. over the years, the conservatives have had their own share of embarrassment over donors and freebies. next week, we�*ll be live from their conference in birmingham as they grind through the contest for their next leader. chris philp, the shadow leader of the commons is with us from london today. good morning to you. have you personally accepted any freebies? so personally accepted any freebies? sr i am wearing a suit that i paid for myself. i have not accepted any free personal donations. i have been to the odd event in connection with my ministerial duties, for example, when i was the minister at dcms, i went to the bafta awards and when i was police minister, i went to see the policing of a football game. but i have not done what keir starmer has done which is accept more

freebies than any other mp. there are 650 mps and he has accepted far more freebies than any other mp and frankly, accepting free clothes and luxury designer goods for his wife, frankly strikes me as just a bit weird and to be honest inappropriate as well. but weird and to be honest inappropriate as well. �* ., , weird and to be honest inappropriate as well. �* . , ., weird and to be honest inappropriate as well. �* ., , ., i. weird and to be honest inappropriate aswell. �* ., ., , as well. but many of your colleagues in our as well. but many of your colleagues in your own — as well. but many of your colleagues in your own party _ as well. but many of your colleagues in your own party have _ as well. but many of your colleagues in your own party have had _ as well. but many of your colleagues in your own party have had all- as well. but many of your colleagues in your own party have had all sorts. in your own party have had all sorts of embarrassment over donations and gifts. you are not really in a position to attack the labour party on this, are you, after latvia�*s? don�*t forget i resigned as a minister in the borisjohnson government over issues of ethics and integrity so i feel i�*ve done my bit towards that cleaning up british politics. don�*t forget, keir starmer has accepted more than any other mp and the person who made those donations, ali, was giving money to keir starmer, a luxury apartment to angela rayner, as we had a short while ago. he gave money to sue gray�*s son in his re—election campaign. he is now a labour mp. gray�*s son in his re—election campaign. he is nowa labour mp. it would appear that in exchange for

that, he got a downing street pass. he has apparently been advising on critical appointments. and we are told... ~ .,~ ., critical appointments. and we are told... ., told... we spoke to angela rayner about that at _ told... we spoke to angela rayner about that at length, _ told... we spoke to angela rayner about that at length, but - told... we spoke to angela rayner about that at length, but i - told... we spoke to angela rayner about that at length, but i am i about that at length, but i am asking you about your own party, and asking you about your own party, and as you said, you are one of many ministers who resigned over concerns about integrity, so given how much of a problem that was for previous conservative governments, isn�*t it a bit rich for you now as a party to be trying to lecture labour on it when, as they would say, they have not broken the rules and bit transparent? figs not broken the rules and bit transparent?— not broken the rules and bit transarent? �* , , . , transparent? as i say, i personally resi . ned transparent? as i say, i personally resigned from _ transparent? as i say, i personally resigned from the _ transparent? as i say, i personally resigned from the government i transparent? as i say, i personally resigned from the government in i resigned from the government in protest at these kind of issue so i feel i�*ve done my bit. but what we are seeing here is labour party donor is getting appointed to civil service positions. we did not discuss that with angela rayner. i think about 12 people who are politically connected to the labour party were put into civil service roles that are supposed to be impartial and this man, lord ali, was put into the heart of downing street, apparently advising on appointments, when he has been

giving money to the labour party, to individuals, buying clothes for people, giving people luxury holiday apartments, to angela rayner, and has been given enormous influence. donors into the house of lords. i would like to ask you, do you accept that you, as a party, have had a very significant role in creating a synonym among the public and attacking the integrity of politics? do you accept some responsibility for the situation we have got into? yes, i do and that is one of the reasons why we lost the last election. i think in fairness, rishi sunak is someone who as leader did show incredible personal integrity but as i say, i resigned in protest at these issues and i voted in favour of the privileges committee report as well. but yes, the conservative party did contribute but i think it is under rishi sunak in particular, sorry, i�*ve got a bit of a cough, under rishi sunak in particular it cleaned up very substantially and i know that all four leadership contenders will make this a priority if elected. but no

conservative prime minister or leader was, you know, giving out downing street passes all civil service positions to donors. that is terrible and that is what keir starmer has done, despite the fact he promised to be different. he promised to be different but he has not been. he is not running a government of service. he is running a government of self—service. do government of service. he is running a government of self-service. do you think there should _ a government of self-service. do you think there should be _ a government of self-service. do you think there should be a _ a government of self-service. do you think there should be a change i a government of self-service. do you think there should be a change in i think there should be a change in the rules? labour says they have not done anything outside the rules. they have declared things. you are as an opposition party perfectly entitled to do it, attacking them over what has happened but do you think there ought to be a change in the rules? i think there ought to be a change in the rules? .. think there ought to be a change in the rules? ~' . ., , think there ought to be a change in the rules? ~' _, , ., the rules? i think when it comes to very personal _ the rules? i think when it comes to very personal gifts _ the rules? i think when it comes to very personal gifts like _ the rules? i think when it comes to very personal gifts like clothes, i very personal gifts like clothes, luxury, designersuits for very personal gifts like clothes, luxury, designer suits for keir starmer, luxury spectacles and design are close for his wife, i think that kind of thing is downright weird and to accept those kind of very expensive gifts at a time when the labour government is cutting winter fuel payments... said the won't cutting winter fuel payments... said they won't do — cutting winter fuel payments... said they won't do that _ cutting winter fuel payments... said they won't do that any more but do they won�*t do that any more but do you think the rule should be changed? i you think the rule should be changed?— you think the rule should be chanced? ~' , , ., , changed? i think they should be looked at- _

changed? i think they should be looked at. do _ changed? i think they should be looked at. do you _ changed? i think they should be looked at. do you think- changed? i think they should be looked at. do you think they i changed? i think they should be i looked at. do you think they should be changed? _ looked at. do you think they should be changed? yes, _ looked at. do you think they should be changed? yes, when _ looked at. do you think they should be changed? yes, when it - looked at. do you think they should be changed? yes, when it comes i looked at. do you think they should| be changed? yes, when it comes to those very personal _ be changed? yes, when it comes to those very personal gifts. _ be changed? yes, when it comes to those very personal gifts. there i be changed? yes, when it comes to those very personal gifts. there is l those very personal gifts. there is no possible justification in those very personal gifts. there is no possiblejustification in terms of public interest or learning about public policy when it comes to accepting designer clothes for keir starmer�*s wi. there is no justification for that so i think thatis justification for that so i think that is something that needs to be looked at. —— keir starmer�*s wife. donations for political campaigning, i think that is different, obviously, if you are going to an event where there is a genuine public policy angle, that is potentially reasonable. but things like clothes and spectacles and luxury apartment in manhattan, i mean, that is frankly pretty ludicrous.— mean, that is frankly pretty ludicrous. ., , ., ., , ludicrous. the conservative party leadershi - ludicrous. the conservative party leadership candidate _ ludicrous. the conservative party leadership candidate robert i ludicrous. the conservative party l leadership candidate robert jenrick leadership candidate robertjenrick has told the telegraph today that terror suspects have come to the uk in small boats. you were ministers together at the home office a while ago. do you have evidence to corroborate that claim? look, i am not auoin corroborate that claim? look, i am not going to _ corroborate that claim? look, i am not going to comment _ corroborate that claim? look, i am not going to comment too - corroborate that claim? look, i am not going to comment too much i corroborate that claim? look, i amj

not going to comment too much on national security issues, but it is obviously, the fact people can come over on small boats in large numbers without any prior checks is an obvious breach of border security, as robertjenrick was rightly saying. you know, that is why... mas saying. you know, that is why... was it appropriate — saying. you know, that is why... was it appropriate for _ saying. you know, that is why... was it appropriate for him to put that information into the public domain, then? he said that he has a minister learned there were terror suspects coming across the channel and you have said you don�*t want to comment on that. was he wrong to put that kind of information into the public domain? ., ., , ., kind of information into the public domain? ., ., ., ., domain? no, he was not wrong and he did not mention _ domain? no, he was not wrong and he did not mention any _ domain? no, he was not wrong and he did not mention any specifics, - did not mention any specifics, rightly, so i do share his concerns about what he said. that is why it is so important to spot —— to stop the boats completely. one of the things i would have stopped them would have been the deterrent effect of the rimando scheme. the first flight was due to take off on the 24th ofjuly, about three weeks after the election, and labour were completely wrong to cancel that scheme because i believe the deterrent effect would have stopped the boats. i don�*t say that speculatively. we saw it work in australia about ten years ago, where

there operation sovereign borders, which had a very similar component to it, completely stopped what they used to call illegal maritime arrivals. labour made a huge mistake by cancelling that scheme before it even started. the point robert jenrick is making about border security is a good point. if we can stop the small boats completely, that loophole, that serious loophole in our border security, will be closed and that is why it is so important that we don�*t just reduce illegal immigration, we stop it completely. illegal immigration, we stop it completely-— illegal immigration, we stop it completely. illegal immigration, we stop it comletel . ~ ., ., completely. whether a wonder will have made a _ completely. whether a wonder will have made a real _ completely. whether a wonder will have made a real difference i completely. whether a wonder will have made a real difference is i have made a real difference is something we will never know at this stage in our political time. —— rather —— aware that rwanda would have made. thank you forjoining us. we hope you weren�*t too lonely in the london studio this morning. now for something completely different. a couple of times on the programme in the last year, we heard the passionate pleas for freedom of vladimir kara—murza, one of the fiercest critics of vladimir putin, who�*d been locked

up for his views. his wife, evgenia, worked and worked for his release, telling us she feared he�*d die injail. then suddenly, in august, he was released as part of one the biggest prisoner exchanges since the cold war. he was free and the family have now been reunited. i met both of them on friday, now they are back together. does his new freedom feel real? no, it does not feel real at all. in fact, for the past six weeks since the prisoner exchange, it has felt as if i have been watching some kind of film. it is a very good one but it still does not feel real, because just a few weeks ago, i was sitting in my two by three metre cell in solitary confinement in a maximum security prison in siberia, thinking that i was never getting out of there. here i am, sitting with you, speaking here in london. does it feel real for you, evgenia? i think that i am in a whirlwind of emotions, honestly.

because we have not had time to process anything. yes, i do feel an immense joy at having vladimir back with us and seeing him with our kids, knowing that he is alive, yet again, you know, having survived two assassination attempts and now this prison sentence, including 11 months in solitary confinement in horrendous conditions, he is yet again alive and relatively healthy with us. but at the same time, i am... i feel something similar to guilt, thinking about all the others who are left behind. there are still millions of families torn apart by the war in ukraine and by repression in russia. let�*s go back to that morning and the early hours of the 28th ofjuly. you were in your cell. suddenly, a group of officers burst in. what went through your mind? um, i was asleep, and suddenly,

the doors to my prison cell burst open and a group of prison officers barged in. i was woken up. i saw that it was dark. i asked what time it was. they said 3am. then they told me to get up and get ready in ten minutes. at that moment, i was absolutely certain that i was being led out to be executed. but instead of the nearby wood, they took me to the airport, handcuffed, in a prison convoy, boarded me on a plane and flew me to moscow. and what did you feel when you saw the people with whom you were being swapped? so a prisoner swap means, of course, people like you, who have fought for human rights for a long time, and who were punished for your political views, but you were swapped for russians on the other side. i saw them from their backs when we were on the bus. when the exchange actually took place, it was on the tarmac of ankara international airport, in the military wing. once the swap was officially

complete, we saw the others, including vadim krasikov, putin�*s hit man, who was serving time in germany, walking to the same plane that had just brought us from moscow. it was very much an unequal exchange. because on the one side, we are people who had never committed any crime in their lives, because the only reason that my colleagues and i were in prison was because we happen to have an opinion that is different from the opinion of vladimir putin. on the other side, there were actual criminals, spies, hackers, a murderer who has killed someone in broad daylight in the middle of berlin. and so... i understand the moral apprehension of some people about this. i fully understand the argument. but to me, democracy is about difficult decisions. you know, easy decisions are for dictatorships, where things are decided like this, on the whim of one individual. democracy is about difficult decisions. 16 people, 16 human souls, were saved from the hell of vladimir putin�*s gulag.

isn�*t that worth releasing one assassin? evgenia, i remember you telling us that you slept with your phone because at any point, a call could come with the best news or the worst news. can you tell us when the call came, that he was to be freed, and what did you feel? on the eve of that day, i received a call from the white house. the kids and i were invited to meet, tojoin the us president at the white house the following day. we were there at 9am. we only met the president at 11:30am, so, two and a half hours later. and only after, only in retrospect, did i realise that we were actually waiting, the president himself was waiting for the actual exchange to take place, because when he invited us, all the families, all four families,

into the oval office, he told us that we would make phone calls to our loved ones. they speak russian. we are in the oval office. there is footage of that moment and of that phone call taking place. watching the footage is incredibly powerful, but what was it like for the two of you? what was it like to hear his voice and know he was safe? um, honestly, ithink i couldn't believe this was happening, and i was... i felt as if i was seeing it all through the eyes of our kids. so that footage, where i see our kids and i hear tears

ofjoy in their voices, that will forever make me cry, i think. i was there in ankara, after the exchange was officially completed. we were all driven to some sort of government terminal, a big reception area. and then, as if things couldn�*t get any more surreal at that point, a lady walks up to me, holding a mobile phone, and she asks, are you mr kara—murza? i said, yes, i am. she said, i am a diplomat from the us embassy in ankara. the president of the united states is going to speak to you on the line. and she hands me the phone. and then i hearjoe biden on the phone. welcome, welcome, welcome. thank you, mr president. i just want you to know that you have done a wonderful thing by saving so many people. i think there are 16 of us on the plane. again, i still can�*t believe this is happening. so i said something to him, and then he passed the phone to my family, to my wife and kids, who were standing there with him in the oval office.

i have to ask, was it worth it, for all the suffering you went through, the terrible conditions, taking a principled stand, fighting for what you believe in? answer number one, as a father, as a husband, as a human being, i regretted it every minute of every day, that i was away from my family, that i was not able to hug my wife or even hear my children�*s voices on the phone. that�*s answer number one. answer number two, just as truthful, just as honest, as a russian politician, not only have i never regretted it, but it could not have been any other way. because i have always been of a firm conviction that a politician has to be in their own country. it is not possible, how could i have called on my fellow russian citizens to stand up and resist the putin dictatorship if i did not do it myself, if i was sitting somewhere in far—away safety? it would be hypocritical, unethical, it would be impossible. i think russia deserves a better future than to live under

an archaic, murderous, aggressive dictatorship that it has lived under for the past 25 years. i believe russia should be a normal, modern, democratic european country and i�*m going to continue working towards that goal, whatever it takes. can you see a day when you will go back and would you still fear for your life if you do? you know, when our plane was taking off from vnukovo airport in moscow en route to ankara on the 1st of august, the fsb officer who was my personal escort, sitting next to me, turned to me and said, look out the window. this is the last time you are seeing your motherland. and ijust laughed in his face, and i said, look, man, i am a historian. i don�*tjust think, i don�*tjust believe, i know that i will be back home in russia, and it is going to happen much sooner than you can imagine. vladimir and evgenia kara—murza, thank you so much for speaking to us today and i know that everybody watching will wish you all the very, very best after everything that you have been through. thank you so much.

great to be on the programme, thank you. thank you. it was such a privilege to meet that pair. and you can listen to a longer version of that interview on bbc sounds. thank you for getting in touch. carole: "i was saddened by the attitude coming from some ministers, that taking "gifts" is "part of the job". what have we come to?" simon holder takes a different view: "the obsession with a holiday and some clothes is madness! i really don�*t care!" jan diack: "why do they pretend they live in the same world as the rest?of us? them and us all over again." i suppose kwajo, that is a story they told repeatedly when they were in opposition about the tories being baddies and being in it for themselves and some of our viewers are looking at it and thinking that reminds me of some of that. yeah, i think that is — reminds me of some of that. yeah, i think that is what _ reminds me of some of that. yeah, i think that is what some _ reminds me of some of that. yeah, i think that is what some people i reminds me of some of that. yeah, i think that is what some people don't think that is what some people don�*t want, it is not what people voted both. people made it clear they were voting for change of that is what

they expect from the labour party. angela mentioned it that this is something that is happening notjust within the labour party but again we have a conservative leadership contest and the same will no doubt happen there. so a conversation really needs to be had now and early on about what should be allowed and what shouldn�*t be nationally because clearly people are outraged. with winter fuel allowance, someone commented about the payments and with this happening off the back of that it does leave a sour taste and i understand why people are not happy. i understand why people are not ha . . _ . ., i understand why people are not ha-- . . ., i understand why people are not ha--. .. ., i understand why people are not happy. richard, you have contact with consumers _ happy. richard, you have contact with consumers all— happy. richard, you have contact with consumers all the _ happy. richard, you have contact with consumers all the time i happy. richard, you have contact with consumers all the time as l happy. richard, you have contact i with consumers all the time as the boss of iceland. we have spoken before about what you see is the real struggle that people are having. how has that changed in recent months? because some of the indicators of the economy are a bit better, inflation is down even though we know the big picture is really tough boss i am people are really tough boss i am people are really struggling, make no mistake about it. , ., , about it. there is a shoplifting violent epidemic _ about it. there is a shoplifting violent epidemic sweeping i about it. there is a shopliftingj violent epidemic sweeping the

country— violent epidemic sweeping the country and the serious incidents report— country and the serious incidents report that i get every monday is really. _ report that i get every monday is really, really upsetting. so we talk about _ really, really upsetting. so we talk about workers' rights but how about the right _ about workers' rights but how about the right not to be assaulted at work _ the right not to be assaulted at work so— the right not to be assaulted at work. so making an assault on a shop worker— work. so making an assault on a shop worker a _ work. so making an assault on a shop worker a stand—alone offence, getting — worker a stand—alone offence, getting rid of this ridiculous £200 limit, _ getting rid of this ridiculous £200 limit, which basically gives a free card to _ limit, which basically gives a free card to shoplifters to nick what they want. and more police resource in because _ they want. and more police resource in because they are not responding at the _ in because they are not responding at the moment as they should do. i would _ at the moment as they should do. i would also — at the moment as they should do. i would also like to throw the gauntlet down to the information commissioner because to protect the human— commissioner because to protect the human rights of known violent offenders, i human rights of known violent offenders, lam not human rights of known violent offenders, i am not allowed to share on whatsapp groups images of known shoplifters, which is bonkers. sol think— shoplifters, which is bonkers. sol think there — shoplifters, which is bonkers. sol think there are many things that the government can do and clear up that will help— government can do and clear up that will help my— government can do and clear up that will help my customers, my colleagues, in their day—to—day life. _ colleagues, in their day—to—day life. just — colleagues, in their day—to—day life, just go about their business. claire, _ life, just go about their business. claire, lastly to you. i suppose the government has had a tricky seven days, things have not gone according to their carefully planned script but overall by the end of wednesday when you think they will be? i

but overall by the end of wednesday when you think they will be?- when you think they will be? i think there will want _ when you think they will be? i think there will want to _ when you think they will be? i think there will want to give _ when you think they will be? i think there will want to give that - when you think they will be? i think| there will want to give that message about changing britain. it is what they went into the election with, it is what people voted for but part of thatis is what people voted for but part of that is about restoring trust in democracy and i think we just heard in your interview that the stakes are really high. liberal democracy is under threat everywhere and therefore restoring trust actually is a really important mission. but so is delivering four people, that is how we restore trust as well, if we actually deliver the goods for people. we actually deliver the goods for --eole. ., we actually deliver the goods for ”eole. ., 4' ., we actually deliver the goods for --eole. ., ~' ., ,, ., people. you know keir starmer well, how crusty think _ people. you know keir starmer well, how crusty think you _ people. you know keir starmer well, how crusty think you will _ people. you know keir starmer well, how crusty think you will be - people. you know keir starmer well, how crusty think you will be about i how crusty think you will be about all this happening? i how crusty think you will be about all this happening?— how crusty think you will be about all this happening? i think would be really focused _ all this happening? i think would be really focused on _ all this happening? i think would be really focused on what _ all this happening? i think would be really focused on what he _ all this happening? i think would be really focused on what he and i all this happening? i think would be really focused on what he and his i really focused on what he and his team have got to do this week. we have a big speech tomorrow from the chancellor, he has his speech on tuesday. he will want to speak to the country and so of course he will have moments where he will have accepted how difficult this is and he will want to confront that, i�*m sure. but i think what he will want to do is set out what changing britain means when you are by minister, notjust leader of the labour party. thank you to all of my guests.

thank you most of all for watching as the labour conference gets going and the leadership tries to change the subject away from dresses and donations, hoping the substance of the speeches on the conference platform will sweep away those awkward stories. we will see. in our interview there was no apology from angela rayner at the deputy minister. she said she had not broken any rules and of course my colleagues from bbc news will bring you everything you need to know from here in the next few days. i will be with paddy o�*connell the newscast later on bbc sounds and i will see you next sunday same time but different place at the conservative party conference in birmingham. see you then.

live from london, this is bbc news.

israel has come under attack from scores of rockets fired by hezbollah in lebanon, as well as drones launched by a pro—iranian group in iraq. these are lives pictures from the northern israeli city of haifa — hezbollah says it has launched rockets at a military base. a mass shooting in alabama has left at least four dead and dozens wounded. angela rayner defends labour�*s record after claims of rule breaches on donations or something like that — mps have accepted donations and gifts for years. and what we have talked about is making sure we are open and transparent about that. and what happened when this secondary school went mobile free. we will bring you more. hello.

we start in the middle east, where israel says hezbollah has