the prime minister's message to conference — labour is building a new britain. a union leader's told this programme that without a change of course the party could lose

the next election. so what is the government's plan? welcome to newsnight, live from the labour party conference in liverpool — their first in 15 years in government. tonight we'll be joined live by a government minster, we'll hear from the leader of the one of the biggest unions in the country who has a strong warning for labour, and in a moment we'll hearfrom the health secretary, wes streeting. your insight tonight comes from mp zarah sultana, who lost the labour whip after backing a motion to scrap the two—child benefit cap. also, a man who had to get into the heads of both keir starmer and tony blair because he wrote some of their speeches, phil collins.

and the political editor of the daily mail, jason groves, who's been covering these conferences since the last time labour were in government. nick, we heard from the chancellor today, and it's a big moment for the prime minister tomorrow. in the last few minutes we heard what the prime minister will say tomorrow and it looks like we will have a slightly less gloomy prime minister in front of the labour conference tomorrow and we will hear talk of light at the end of the tunnel and indeed that phrase is making some of the front pages tomorrow. this has been a more difficult backdrop to a conference you would expect two and a half months after a thumping parliamentary majority and there are two factors, all of that criticism about donations and it looks like the prime minister will not be focusing on but he will focus on what boris johnson focusing on but he will focus on what borisjohnson were described as the doomsters and gloom stories, the government saying they have inherited the worst economic legacy

since the second world war and one cabinet minister told us that economic inheritance was, i had better leave the word out, we cannot say that on a family programme. what we will hear is the where do we go beyond that? he will talk about tough decisions now and then you get the long—term gains and that is a night at the end of the tunnel. what they are thinking is, if you want to take people on thatjourney, you have to give them a taste of the benefits. interestingly, in the chancellor's speech today, we do get a flavour of that approach. the british capacity for inventiveness, enterprise and old—fashioned hard work has not gone away. so believe me when i say, my optimism for britain burns brighter than ever. my ambition knows no limits because i can see what is on offer if we make the right choices now.

after her speech i caught up with the chancellor, the smiling chancellor and i asked her about this more upbeat tone. chancellor, are you moving on from the doom and gloom? hopefully today you will have heard a positive vision about the prizes. we can bring stability back to our economy, that's what i set out today. straight after the chancellor's speech i spoke to the health secretary, wes streeting, about the government's decision to cut winter fuel payments for 10 million pensioners. what's your advice to pensioners who are frightened about the forthcoming winter? two things. firstly, the winter fuel allowance is being means tested to support the poorest pensioners. we've also extended things like the warm homes discount... so what's your advice? ..and the hardship support. but the other advice i would give is, in terms of the triple lock, we are committed to that. that means that pensioners... that's not advice. ..that pensioners will be better off next winter and the winter after than they were last winter because we have committed to the triple lock. only if they are on the new state

pension, and most people aren't on a new state pension. some pensioners have told us they are frightened. you can't be proud of that. i also think that in terms of the choices we are making and the fairness that is built in, both in terms of the means test, the other support that is available and also the value of the pension itself, pensioners will still be better off. we can bring injason groves, zarah sultana and phil collins. cabinet ministers will keep facing questions like this, will we hear enough and have you heard enough so far and will be here and from the prime minister tomorrow to move this conversation on? i do minister tomorrow to move this conversation on?— minister tomorrow to move this conversation on? i do not and your auestion conversation on? i do not and your question and _ conversation on? i do not and your question and answer— conversation on? i do not and your question and answer session - conversation on? i do not and your. question and answer session showed why, there was no advice for pensioners who will be cold this winter, what are you supposed to do? and i think the story will carry on

through the winter. as the weather gets colder you will be hearing more stories and i am afraid that by next spring or summer, when the statisticians are going through it, you will look at potentially access deaths in the story will run through this parliament and will still be an issue at the next election. we have talked to the _ issue at the next election. we have talked to the unite _ issue at the next election. we have talked to the unite union leader - talked to the unite union leader and she has a very strong warning about that. zarah, the prime minister will tomorrow say that there will be short—term pain in these tough decisions but he is going to tell the country that this means long—term gain, from higher living standards to lower waiting lists. don't you have to give him time to try and do that? min; don't you have to give him time to try and do that?— try and do that? why is it always a workin: try and do that? why is it always a working class _ try and do that? why is it always a working class who _ try and do that? why is it always a working class who have _ try and do that? why is it always a working class who have to - try and do that? why is it always a working class who have to bear . try and do that? why is it always a| working class who have to bear the brunt _ working class who have to bear the brunt of— working class who have to bear the brunt of short—term decisions? when we look— brunt of short—term decisions? when we look at _ brunt of short—term decisions? when we look at the 2008 financial crisis and the _ we look at the 2008 financial crisis and the pandemic and the cost—of—living crisis, it is always working — cost—of—living crisis, it is always working class communities and they

also bore _ working class communities and they also bore the brunt of austerity and what we _ also bore the brunt of austerity and what we are seeing now with the decision— what we are seeing now with the decision to means test winter fuel payments... decision to means test winter fuel payments- - -_ payments... red chair pensioners do not aet payments... red chair pensioners do not net the payments... red chair pensioners do not get the allowance? _ payments... red chair pensioners do not get the allowance? age - payments... red chair pensioners do not get the allowance? age uk - payments... red chair pensioners do not get the allowance? age uk is - not get the allowance? age uk is worried that _ not get the allowance? age uk is worried that 2 _ not get the allowance? age uk is worried that 2 million _ not get the allowance? age uk is worried that 2 million pensioners| worried that 2 million pensioners will not _ worried that 2 million pensioners will not receive the support they need _ will not receive the support they need and — will not receive the support they need and it is not pensioners getting — need and it is not pensioners getting in— need and it is not pensioners getting in touch with me as a constituency mp, i have had so many .et constituency mp, i have had so many get in _ constituency mp, i have had so many get in touch, — constituency mp, i have had so many get in touch, the most since being re-elected. — get in touch, the most since being re—elected, saying they are worried about— re—elected, saying they are worried about this _ re—elected, saying they are worried about this winter and the decisions on heating — about this winter and the decisions on heating and eating and some people — on heating and eating and some people are questioning whether life is worth— people are questioning whether life is worth living. we are the economy in the _ is worth living. we are the economy in the world — is worth living. we are the economy in the world but the poorest pensioners in the country as well as well as— pensioners in the country as well as well as poor— pensioners in the country as well as well as poor kids are having to go through— well as poor kids are having to go through avoidable poverty and this is about— through avoidable poverty and this is about political decisions this labour— is about political decisions this labour government does not have to make _ labour government does not have to make these — labour government does not have to make these decisions if it taxes the super— make these decisions if it taxes the super rich — make these decisions if it taxes the super rich. did make these decisions if it taxes the su er rich. , i. make these decisions if it taxes the suer rich. , y., ._ make these decisions if it taxes the suer rich. , y., super rich. did you say some pensioners — super rich. did you say some pensioners are _ super rich. did you say some pensioners are questioning l super rich. did you say some - pensioners are questioning whether life is worth living? i pensioners are questioning whether life is worth living?— life is worth living? i have had e-mails and — life is worth living? i have had e-mails and letters and - e—mails and letters and conversations where pensioners have said, conversations where pensioners have said. i_ conversations where pensioners have said, i wonder why life conversations where pensioners have said, iwonderwhy life is conversations where pensioners have said, i wonder why life is worth living _ said, i wonder why life is worth living if— said, i wonder why life is worth living if this is what i have to go

through — living if this is what i have to go through i— living if this is what i have to go through. i worked living if this is what i have to go through. iworked hard living if this is what i have to go through. i worked hard all my life and i_ through. i worked hard all my life and i am — through. i worked hard all my life and i am worried, as life with living? — and i am worried, as life with living? that is absolutely harrowing and it _ living? that is absolutely harrowing and it is _ living? that is absolutely harrowing and it is not something the labour government should be doing, if labour— government should be doing, if labour has a mission it must be to end labour has a mission it must be to and child _ labour has a mission it must be to end child poverty, poverty and this is incorrect — end child poverty, poverty and this is incorrect and unjustifiable and i am worried — is incorrect and unjustifiable and i am worried about this winter with access— am worried about this winter with access deaths.— access deaths. philip collins, did ou hear access deaths. philip collins, did you hear any _ access deaths. philip collins, did you hear any substance - access deaths. philip collins, did you hear any substance today . access deaths. philip collins, did l you hear any substance today from rachel reeves? i you hear any substance today from rachel reeves?— rachel reeves? i did hear some, i heard the desire _ rachel reeves? i did hear some, i heard the desire for _ rachel reeves? i did hear some, i. heard the desire for more investment which _ heard the desire for more investment which i _ heard the desire for more investment which i think— heard the desire for more investment which i think wru— heard the desire for more investment which i think will become _ heard the desire for more investment which i think will become a _ heard the desire for more investment which i think will become a big - which i think will become a big theme — which i think will become a big theme of— which i think will become a big theme of this _ which i think will become a big theme of this labour- which i think will become a big i theme of this labour government which i think will become a big - theme of this labour government and i do theme of this labour government and i do think— theme of this labour government and i do think that — theme of this labour government and i do think that will— theme of this labour government and i do think that will be _ theme of this labour government and i do think that will be quite _ theme of this labour government and i do think that will be quite a - i do think that will be quite a point — i do think that will be quite a point of— i do think that will be quite a point of difference _ i do think that will be quite a point of difference with their| point of difference with their predecessor~ _ point of difference with their predecessor. the _ point of difference with their predecessor. the speech - point of difference with theiri predecessor. the speech was point of difference with their - predecessor. the speech was largely an assembly— predecessor. the speech was largely an assembly of— predecessor. the speech was largely an assembly of things _ predecessor. the speech was largely an assembly of things when - predecessor. the speech was largely an assembly of things when knew i an assembly of things when knew alreadv — an assembly of things when knew alreadv well_ an assembly of things when knew already. well watered, _ an assembly of things when knew already. well watered, but - an assembly of things when knew already. well watered, but it- an assembly of things when knew already. well watered, but it didl already. well watered, but it did not particularly _ already. well watered, but it did not particularly break _ already. well watered, but it did not particularly break new- already. well watered, but it didl not particularly break new ground so ithought— not particularly break new ground so i thought it — not particularly break new ground so i thought it was _ not particularly break new ground so i thought it was well _ i thought it was well constructed and solid — i thought it was well constructed and solid but _ i thought it was well constructed and solid but it— i thought it was well constructed and solid but it was not- and solid but it was not particularly _ and solid but it was not particularly ambitious. i and solid but it was not- particularly ambitious. there was and solid but it was not— particularly ambitious. there was an attempt _ particularly ambitious. there was an attempt to— particularly ambitious. there was an attempt to mix _ particularly ambitious. there was an attempt to mix the _ particularly ambitious. there was an attempt to mix the pessimism - particularly ambitious. there was an attempt to mix the pessimism withl attempt to mix the pessimism with optimism _ attempt to mix the pessimism with optimism that _ attempt to mix the pessimism with optimism that sets _ attempt to mix the pessimism with optimism that sets up _ attempt to mix the pessimism with optimism that sets up keir- attempt to mix the pessimism with optimism that sets up keir starmer tomorrow— optimism that sets up keir starmer tomorrow because _ optimism that sets up keir starmer tomorrow because that _ optimism that sets up keir starmer tomorrow because that is -

optimism that sets up keir starmerj tomorrow because that is obviously what has _ tomorrow because that is obviously what has to— tomorrow because that is obviously what has to be _ tomorrow because that is obviously what has to be done _ tomorrow because that is obviously what has to be done because - tomorrow because that is obviously what has to be done because it- tomorrow because that is obviously what has to be done because it is. what has to be done because it is right— what has to be done because it is right that — what has to be done because it is right that if — what has to be done because it is right that if you _ what has to be done because it is right that if you are _ what has to be done because it is right that if you are in _ what has to be done because it is right that if you are in the - what has to be done because it is right that if you are in the midst. right that if you are in the midst of a series— right that if you are in the midst of a series of— right that if you are in the midst of a series of problems, - right that if you are in the midst of a series of problems, some l right that if you are in the midstl of a series of problems, some of your— of a series of problems, some of your own — of a series of problems, some of your own making, _ of a series of problems, some of your own making, of— of a series of problems, some of your own making, of course - of a series of problems, some of your own making, of course you i of a series of problems, some of. your own making, of course you can change _ your own making, of course you can change the — your own making, of course you can change the course _ your own making, of course you can change the course but _ your own making, of course you can change the course but the - your own making, of course you can change the course but the only- your own making, of course you canl change the course but the only other thin- change the course but the only other thing you _ change the course but the only other thing you can — change the course but the only other thing you can do _ change the course but the only other thing you can do is _ change the course but the only other thing you can do is have _ change the course but the only other thing you can do is have new- change the course but the only other thing you can do is have new things. thing you can do is have new things to say _ thing you can do is have new things to say it is — thing you can do is have new things to say it is to— thing you can do is have new things to say. it is to give _ thing you can do is have new things to say. it is to give interesting - to say. it is to give interesting thoughts _ to say. it is to give interesting thoughts so _ to say. it is to give interesting thoughts so that _ to say. it is to give interesting thoughts so that the - to say. it is to give interesting thoughts so that the news - thoughts so that the news cycle moves — thoughts so that the news cycle moves on — thoughts so that the news cycle moves on so _ thoughts so that the news cycle moves on so move _ thoughts so that the news cycle moves on so move on- thoughts so that the news cycle moves on so move on to - thoughts so that the news cycle moves on so move on to things| thoughts so that the news cycle - moves on so move on to things you want _ moves on so move on to things you want to— moves on so move on to things you want to talk— moves on so move on to things you want to talk about _ moves on so move on to things you want to talk about rather _ moves on so move on to things you want to talk about rather than - want to talk about rather than things— want to talk about rather than things you _ want to talk about rather than things you don't _ want to talk about rather than things you don't want - want to talk about rather than things you don't want to. - want to talk about rather than things you don't want to. and| want to talk about rather than . things you don't want to. and as well as— things you don't want to. and as well as rallying _ things you don't want to. and as well as rallying the _ things you don't want to. and as well as rallying the faithful - things you don't want to. and as well as rallying the faithful herel well as rallying the faithful here and giving — well as rallying the faithful here and giving them _ well as rallying the faithful here and giving them a _ well as rallying the faithful here and giving them a sense - well as rallying the faithful here and giving them a sense of- well as rallying the faithful here and giving them a sense of why| well as rallying the faithful here. and giving them a sense of why a labour government— and giving them a sense of why a labour government is— and giving them a sense of why a labour government is worth - and giving them a sense of why a i labour government is worth having, that is the _ labour government is worth having, that is the task— labour government is worth having, that is the task tomorrow. - labour government is worth having, that is the task tomorrow. iason - that is the task tomorrow. jason groves, that is the task tomorrow. jason groves. the _ that is the task tomorrow. jason groves, the daily _ that is the task tomorrow. jason groves, the daily mail _ that is the task tomorrow. jason groves, the daily mail has - that is the task tomorrowm groves, the daily mail has pointed out, as have other parts of the media, the freebies and donations and what have you, so can i see if you will accept this... is what labour have done, is that on a par with the rule breaking parties at downing street while the rest of the country was locked down? is it on a par with borisjohnson lying to parliament and the country according

to the privileges committee? the vip line for covid contracts? with boris johnson trying to change the rules because one of his own mps broke the lobbying rules. is it on a par with that? , ., , ., , that? give them time. it has only been two months. _ that? give them time. it has only been two months. i would - that? give them time. it has only been two months. i would say - been two months. i would say probably— been two months. i would say probably not but i think the public perception of these things is they are very— perception of these things is they are very much the same. it is interesting that when you ask keir starmer— interesting that when you ask keir starmer about this he has a blind spot. _ starmer about this he has a blind spot. i_ starmer about this he has a blind spot, i have followed the rules. people — spot, i have followed the rules. people don't look at it like that, who writes the rules? the mp5. the lesson— who writes the rules? the mp5. the lesson from — who writes the rules? the mp5. the lesson from the expenses scandal was that most— lesson from the expenses scandal was that most of that was within the reds _ that most of that was within the reds but — that most of that was within the reds but people hated it and if you look at _ reds but people hated it and if you look at the opinion polls, people hate the — look at the opinion polls, people hate the suits and the glasses and the clothes, they hate the tickets and the _ the clothes, they hate the tickets and the lot. the clothes, they hate the tickets and the lot-— the clothes, they hate the tickets and the lot. a, ., ., ., i. and the lot. more from all of you in and the lot. more from all of you in a moment — and the lot. more from all of you in a moment or _ and the lot. more from all of you in a moment or two. _ i also had a word with the leader of one of the biggest trade unions in the uk,

unite. on the winter fuel payments cut, sharon graham said she was worried elderly people could die. the winter fuel payment was put in for a reason. it was put in so you had older people who were able to put the heating on. and if older people do not put the heating on, the very least that will happen is they will be going into a&e and they will be going into hospital. the worst that can happen is that those people will lose their lives. this is the wrong decision and they need to back away from that decision. let's talk live now to the minister for industry and decarbonisation, sarah jones. thank you for being with us. sharon graham says elderly people could die because of the decision to means test winter fuel payments. what would you do if that happens? through the support available through the pensioners most in need being able to get the allowance and through the household funds available from local authorities, we will make sure the most vulnerable

are protected. will make sure the most vulnerable are protected-— are protected. what will you do if that happens? — are protected. what will you do if that happens? it _ are protected. what will you do if that happens? it won't _ are protected. what will you do if that happens? it won't happen. l are protected. what will you do if i that happens? it won't happen. we will make sure _ that happens? it won't happen. we will make sure the _ that happens? it won't happen. we will make sure the people - that happens? it won't happen. we will make sure the people who - that happens? it won't happen. we will make sure the people who are| will make sure the people who are most vulnerable will get the support. most vulnerable will get the su ort. ., most vulnerable will get the su ort, ., .., most vulnerable will get the su--ort. ., ~ ., ., most vulnerable will get the su--ort. ., ~ ., .n support. how can you know that? i am sure that the — support. how can you know that? i am sure that the extra _ support. how can you know that? i am sure that the extra support _ support. how can you know that? i am sure that the extra support that - support. how can you know that? i am sure that the extra support that we - sure that the extra support that we have put in place will make sure pensioners who are in the main getting substantial increases in their pension, will have more money in their pockets and they will be able... ., .., ,., in their pockets and they will be able... ., .., y., ., in their pockets and they will be able... ., ., , in their pockets and they will be able... ., . , ., able... hancorn, you are sure? you don't know. — able... hancorn, you are sure? you don't know. do _ able... hancorn, you are sure? you don't know, do you? _ able... hancorn, you are sure? you don't know, do you? hancorn. l don't know, do you? hancorn. there are — don't know, do you? hancorn. there are families _ don't know, do you? hancorn. there are families with _ don't know, do you? hancorn. there are families with children i there are families with children struggling to pay the heating bills and we know the bills are too high which is why this government is going as fast as we possibly can to deal with the mess we have been left by the conservatives and bring those bills down. ed miliband announced new rules on the energy efficiency

of homes so that landlords have to make sure they are... of homes so that landlords have to make sure they are. . .— of homes so that landlords have to make sure they are... that will not hel this make sure they are... that will not help this winter. _ make sure they are... that will not help this winter. that will - make sure they are... that will not help this winter. that will bring - help this winter. that will bring down the costs. _ help this winter. that will bring down the costs. this winter. i help this winter. that will bring | down the costs. this winter. we help this winter. that will bring - down the costs. this winter. we are investin: down the costs. this winter. we are investing and _ down the costs. this winter. we are investing and making _ down the costs. this winter. we are investing and making sure - down the costs. this winter. we are investing and making sure people . investing and making sure people have heating in their homes that will be available are moving as we can to bring down the cost of energy because we know that the reliance on oil and gas through the war in ukraine, we saw that huge reliance on the national and international pricing of oil and gas and we know that... if pricing of oil and gas and we know that... . , , , that... if an elderly person dies this that. .. if an elderly person dies this winter— that... if an elderly person dies this winter because _ that... if an elderly person dies this winter because they - that... if an elderly person dies this winter because they got. that... if an elderly person dies| this winter because they got sick and there were cold and did not turn on the heating, are you going to turn around and say, we had no choice? i turn around and say, we had no choice? . ., . , ., ., ,, choice? i am not in politics to make --eole choice? i am not in politics to make people suffer. _ choice? i am not in politics to make people suffer. i _ choice? i am not in politics to make people suffer, i am _ choice? i am not in politics to make people suffer, i am in _ choice? i am not in politics to make people suffer, i am in politics - choice? i am not in politics to make people suffer, i am in politics to - people suffer, i am in politics to make lives better. so don't do this. rachel reeves said today query that she had to make some decisions that

were very difficult. but she stands by those decisions and we will do everything we can and all local mps will be working as closely as i can with local agencies and with the charities but we all work within local communities to make sure that those people who are most vulnerable, i was e—mailing today... for ten years... to make sure there is support and money in place for people like age uk.— is support and money in place for people like age uk. martin lewis has sent ten people like age uk. martin lewis has spent ten years— people like age uk. martin lewis has spent ten years trying _ people like age uk. martin lewis has spent ten years trying to _ people like age uk. martin lewis has spent ten years trying to get - people like age uk. martin lewis has spent ten years trying to get those i spent ten years trying to get those 880,000 pensioners eligible for pension credit to sign up, ten years. and you are going to do that in weeks? ., , years. and you are going to do that in weeks? , ., years. and you are going to do that in weeks? ., , ., . .,, in weeks? there has been an increase in weeks? there has been an increase in the number — in weeks? there has been an increase in the number of _ in weeks? there has been an increase in the number of people _ in weeks? there has been an increase in the number of people applying - in weeks? there has been an increase in the number of people applying for. in the number of people applying for pension credit and we have seen the uptick and liz kendall is coming out and trying to make sure people apply and trying to make sure people apply and we want people to get the benefits they are entitled to. we know that there are barriers to that, particularly with elderly

people, they don't always want to apply for what they are entitled to and we need to break through those barriers. that is why we need to ensure all of the local agencies are working as hard as they can to make sure those vulnerable pensioners get the support they need. hope sure those vulnerable pensioners get the support they need.— the support they need. how is it coherent to _ the support they need. how is it coherent to decide _ the support they need. how is it coherent to decide to _ the support they need. how is it coherent to decide to means - the support they need. how is it| coherent to decide to means test winter fuel payments but provide breakfast clubs for everybody? weill. breakfast clubs for everybody? well, we know that — breakfast clubs for everybody? well, we know that one _ breakfast clubs for everybody? well, we know that one of— breakfast clubs for everybody? well, we know that one of the _ breakfast clubs for everybody? -ii we know that one of the most important things about our children's education is that they get fed before going to school, you cannot learn without being fed and there are other advantages to breakfast clubs that help the economy because people can go to work at an earlier time and they can get to theirjobs. but work at an earlier time and they can get to theirjobs.— get to their “obs. but are you ok with giving — get to theirjobs. but are you ok with giving free _ get to theirjobs. but are you ok with giving free breakfast to - get to theirjobs. but are you ok with giving free breakfast to the | with giving free breakfast to the kids of millionaires but not ok giving winter fuel payments to millionaire pensioners? it giving winter fuel payments to millionaire pensioners? it helps the economy because _ millionaire pensioners? it helps the economy because people _ millionaire pensioners? it helps the economy because people can - millionaire pensioners? it helps the economy because people can get i millionaire pensioners? it helps the economy because people can get to work and we know there is an issue. there is an issue with childcare

being difficult, in the mornings and at the end of school so we think it is important that children are fed so they do not go to school hungry. that is a very important policy. you are the minister— that is a very important policy. you are the minister for industry and decarbonisation. sharon graham of the unite union, she represents more energy workers and any other union, she is worried about the fact that you will not assume new oil and gas licenses and she says 30,000 jobs will be gone in the sector and she told me today that she does not have any idea what these new green jobs are. sharon graham, the head of unite union! she does not know and she is worried that you're going to have working—class communities becoming waistlines. her words. i am workini becoming waistlines. her words. i am working really — becoming waistlines. herwords. i —n working really closely with unite, with sharon's team, with the gmp, with sharon's team, with the gmp, with the unions to make sure we are delivering the green jobs of the future. let me give you some

examples. we know we need engineers and welders, electricians, we know we can be global leaders on hydrogen, carbon capture, floating offshore wind. we know there are companies who want to invest in this country right now and deliver those projects but there are barriers to them doing it. they don't see stability in the economy or have the right incentives to come here, so by setting up the national wealth fund, great british energy, the british jobs bonus, we will incentivise businesses and industry to invest in those green energies that will deliverjobs and the future. deliver “obs and the future. that makes deliverjobs and the future. that makes sense, _ deliverjobs and the future. that makes sense, jobs _ deliverjobs and the future. that makes sense, jobs in _ deliverjobs and the future. that makes sense, jobs in the future, look at what happened in grangemouth, 400 people out of work a couple of weeks ago, where are their newjobs, sharon graham said to me, labourwill their newjobs, sharon graham said to me, labour will never be forgiven if you don't step in now, and you put the money those jobs. that if you don't step in now, and you put the money those jobs. put the money those “obs. that is wh we put the money those “obs. that is why we t put the money those jobs. that is why we are setting up _ put the money those jobs. that is why we are setting up the - put the money those jobs. that is | why we are setting up the national wealth fund at great british energy

and the british jobs wealth fund at great british energy and the britishjobs bonus. to wealth fund at great british energy and the british jobs bonus. and the british “obs bonus. to these 400 peopie — and the british “obs bonus. to these 400 peopie at — and the british jobs bonus. to these 400 people at grangemouth - and the british jobs bonus. to these 400 people at grangemouth who i and the british jobs bonus. to these l 400 people at grangemouth who lost their jobs. 400 people at grangemouth who lost theirjobs. it is 400 people at grangemouth who lost their “obs. , . ' 400 people at grangemouth who lost their “obs. , . , ., theirjobs. it is awful what happened- _ theirjobs. it is awful what happened. opal, is- theirjobs. it is awful what happened. opal, is that l theirjobs. it is awful what. happened. opal, is that it? theirjobs. it is awful what - happened. opal, is that it? the coman happened. opal, is that it? the company has — happened. opal, is that it? the company has made _ happened. opal, is that it? the company has made a _ happened. opal, is that it? the. company has made a commercial decision. it is the governments job to support where we can and devise an industrial strategy... 50 to support where we can and devise an industrial strategy. . .— an industrial strategy... so they will have to _ an industrial strategy... so they will have to wait _ an industrial strategy... so they will have to wait for _ an industrial strategy... so they will have to wait for your - will have to wait for your industrial strategy to be published. we are setting up an office of schools which is working with skills in england and the new structures to make sure we can rescale people into the entries of the future. the green sector is already growing in this country, and it is growing at a faster pace than lots of other sectors so we are already seeing energy jobs sectors so we are already seeing energyjobs coming in. we think we can go much faster. wejust energyjobs coming in. we think we can go much faster. we just lifted in our first week the can go much faster. we just lifted in ourfirst week the ban on can go much faster. we just lifted in our first week the ban on onshore wind. that will create thousands of jobs. the investment we will put into hydrogen, carbon capture, that will create thousands ofjobs. we are in the business of having an industrial strategy that delivers

really good well—paid jobs because they are higher than average jobs, very well paid jobs in some of these green technologies and we want to deliver more of those in the future which is why we have an industrial strategy and why businesses are saying to us and to me we want to come here and invest. hope saying to us and to me we want to come here and invest.— come here and invest. how did accepting _ come here and invest. how did accepting four _ come here and invest. how did accepting four tickets - come here and invest. how did accepting four tickets for - come here and invest. how did accepting four tickets for the l accepting four tickets for the capitol summertime ball at wembley worth 400 quid last summer help you do yourjob? has i worth 400 quid last summer help you do yourjob?— do your “ob? as i think we have been havini do yourjob? as i think we have been havini this do yourjob? as i think we have been having this conversation _ do yourjob? as i think we have been having this conversation for - do yourjob? as i think we have been having this conversation for a - having this conversation for a couple of weeks now, mps take hospitality, they are offered lots of things, i have been offered lots of things, i have been offered lots of things, i have been offered lots of things that i haven't taken, but is one thing that i did take, hospitality for.— is one thing that i did take, hos-itali for. ., hospitality for. how does it take ou do hospitality for. how does it take you do your _ hospitality for. how does it take you do yourjob _ hospitality for. how does it take you do yourjob because - hospitality for. how does it take you do yourjob because it - hospitality for. how does it take you do yourjob because it was l you do yourjob because it was useful and a fun thing to do and i took my kids. useful in what way? i think mps are offered hospitality and that is something we sometimes do and we're very lucky to do that. i know and i appreciate and i think rachel reeves said the same this morning, really appreciate that if

difficult and people are frustrated by what they are saying. you get it? i do iet by what they are saying. you get it? i do get it- — by what they are saying. you get it? i do get it. ok. _ by what they are saying. you get it? i do get it. ok, thank— by what they are saying. you get it? i do get it. ok, thank you _ by what they are saying. you get it? i do get it. ok, thank you for - by what they are saying. you get it? i do get it. ok, thank you for being l i do get it. ok, thank you for being with us. we're going to come back to our panel in just a second, but let's have a quick look at tomorrow's front pages. they are on my phone. bear with me, face id, right, i have the papers now, i am so sorry. we will start with the guardian, pm vows to end grain as they seek to end spending reductions. light at the end of the tunnel. the prime minister tells britain. the financial times. reeves stops borrowing rate with higher capital spending. the i, raise lots of cutting benefits to fund spending burst and the daily mail, union boss will seize control of the economy which we will ask adjacent groups about its own. not his story, his colleagues. next, in terms of moving

the conversation on, but we have been discussing, the theme of our programme, is it happening? i(eir programme, is it happening? keir starmer it programme, is it happening? ifle: " starmer it looks programme, is it happening? iie: " starmer it looks like will programme, is it happening? i;e: " starmer it looks like will not talk about the last thing you were talking to surgeons about which is all the fuss over donations. it was interesting from sarah, you got a very clear rejection of what sharon graham told you, which is means testing the winter fuel allowance could lead to excess deaths. sarah said to you that will not happen. interesting, sarah was elected as an mp in 2017. at the general election the labour party said that if you get rid of the winter fuel allowance that will lead to excess deaths. crucially this government is not getting rid of it, it is means testing it. what that means is if you have an income over £12,600, you won't get it. that is the pension that people who will be struggling on that won't have a want to be a lot. jo grady, general secretary of the university and college union,

is also here with us. thank you for being with us. the labour government is asking for time to turn things around because they say the inheritance has been shocking. poor growth for 14 years, stagnant growth. are your members going to give them time to at least try and turn things around? i going to give them time to at least try and turn things around?- try and turn things around? i think we understand _ try and turn things around? i think we understand that _ try and turn things around? i think we understand that the _ try and turn things around? i think. we understand that the conservative party have lea pt 14 we understand that the conservative party have leapt 14 years of decay in most public institutions. and i think people are willing to give labour time butjust to pick on something that the ministerjust said, she was talking about economic renewal and training electricians, engineers, you won't get those if you don't invest in further education and higher education. our members in particular have had nothing in terms of any indication of investment in their fees and higher education, and our members are really worried that we aren't getting any indications from labour

about what, when and what will be delivered. �* ;, about what, when and what will be delivered. �* ., ., , , delivered. but i have only been in three months. _ delivered. but i have only been in three months. i— delivered. but i have only been in three months. ithink— delivered. but i have only been in three months. i think that - delivered. but i have only been in three months. i think that is - three months. i think that is understandable _ three months. i think that is understandable but - three months. i think that is - understandable but simultaneously three months. i think that is _ understandable but simultaneously we have the government reminding us of the mess the tories have left us in which we all probably can agree with. but i also need to have a message which is clear about what they are going to do. this isn't 1997, it isn't tony blair 2.0. there is more in common right out with 1945 and i think labour need to be clear about the leper and the investment at full be required to really turn the sectors that have been left to ruin and effie is definitely one of them and they aren't doing that. i appreciate it takes time but they could be clear about what they will do and when it will be delivered and what interim measures will be put in place for members like, the ones that the economic turnaround will rely on. can we talk about what might happen in the budget in terms of the economy and what you might be hoping

to see? there was this hint today from rachel reeves that the government might either redefine debt, which sounds really odd, or it might be about tweaking the fiscal rules to allow more borrowing for investment. it rules to allow more borrowing for investment-— rules to allow more borrowing for investment. it is very clear rachel reeves wants _ investment. it is very clear rachel reeves wants us _ investment. it is very clear rachel reeves wants us to _ investment. it is very clear rachel reeves wants us to be _ investment. it is very clear rachel reeves wants us to be talking - investment. it is very clear rachell reeves wants us to be talking right now about — reeves wants us to be talking right now about how she is thinking of taking _ now about how she is thinking of taking a — now about how she is thinking of taking a more flexible approach on investment. the key phrase she said, growth _ investment. the key phrase she said, growth is _ investment. the key phrase she said, growth is the challenge and investment is a solution. then she was saying — investment is a solution. then she was saying it is time that the treasury— was saying it is time that the treasury moved on and just counting the cost _ treasury moved on and just counting the cost of— treasury moved on and just counting the cost of investments in our economy, _ the cost of investments in our economy, to recognising the benefits _ economy, to recognising the benefits. as i understand it, the treasury— benefits. as i understand it, the treasury doesn't have a five—point plan about — treasury doesn't have a five—point plan about exactly what it is going to do. _ plan about exactly what it is going to do. but— plan about exactly what it is going to do, but is going to be some flexibility— to do, but is going to be some flexibility around rachel reeves' fiscal— flexibility around rachel reeves' fiscal rules. one element is you can't _ fiscal rules. one element is you can't borrow for day—to—day investment, but the second element is has _

investment, but the second element is has is _ investment, but the second element is has is that it is a share of gdp must _ is has is that it is a share of gdp must be — is has is that it is a share of gdp must be falling by the end of the five year— must be falling by the end of the five year period. there was a report, — five year period. there was a report, we _ five year period. there was a report, we did it last month from the office — report, we did it last month from the office for the budget responsibility, saying could you take a — responsibility, saying could you take a longer term approach to investment? the obr doesn't to do stuff by— investment? the obr doesn't to do stuff by accident. you investment? the obr doesn't to do stuff by accident.— investment? the obr doesn't to do stuff by accident. you would support that? yes but _ stuff by accident. you would support that? yes but i — stuff by accident. you would support that? yes but i would _ stuff by accident. you would support that? yes but i would also _ stuff by accident. you would support that? yes but i would also want - stuff by accident. you would support that? yes but i would also want to i that? yes but i would also want to see wealth — that? yes but i would also want to see wealth taxes _ that? yes but i would also want to see wealth taxes and _ that? yes but i would also want to see wealth taxes and unless we i see wealth taxes and unless we tackle the fact that we do not have a fair taxation system that doesn't redistribute wealth fairly we are not going to give the members of the investment we need and we won't rebuild our public services. we need to seek policies like equalising capital gains with income tax thresholds and we need to be looking at digital services tax.— at digital services tax. some of that may be — at digital services tax. some of that may be coming _ at digital services tax. some of that may be coming but - at digital services tax. some of that may be coming but the - at digital services tax. some of - that may be coming but the wealth tax rachel reeves has said no way. the change that people voted for the labour party to implement, i worry how we will invest that. invest in doing so. unless we look at wealth

taxes... it doing so. unless we look at wealth taxes... . . �* doing so. unless we look at wealth taxes... . , �* ., doing so. unless we look at wealth taxes... �* ., , ., , ., taxes... it wasn't a promise on the manifest of- _ taxes... it wasn't a promise on the manifest of. but _ taxes. .. it wasn't a promise on the manifest of. but neither— taxes... it wasn't a promise on the manifest of. but neither was - manifest of. but neither was esca-ain manifest of. but neither was escaping the _ manifest of. but neither was escaping the winter - manifest of. but neither was escaping the winter fuel- manifest of. but neither was - escaping the winter fuel allowance. you are right and they say they didn't know how bad the situation was. if you are writing keir starmer�*s speech tomorrow what would you put in it? it is starmer's speech tomorrow what would you put in it?— you put in it? it is or is a difficult _ you put in it? it is or is a difficult speech - you put in it? it is or is a difficult speech because | you put in it? it is or is a . difficult speech because you you put in it? it is or is a - difficult speech because you have you put in it? it is or is a _ difficult speech because you have to find a _ difficult speech because you have to find a common— difficult speech because you have to find a common phrase _ difficult speech because you have to find a common phrase which- difficult speech because you have to . find a common phrase which everyone understands _ find a common phrase which everyone understands which _ find a common phrase which everyone understands which isn't _ find a common phrase which everyone understands which isn't a _ find a common phrase which everyone understands which isn't a cliche - understands which isn't a cliche would _ understands which isn't a cliche would somehow— understands which isn't a cliche would somehow magically- understands which isn't a cliche - would somehow magically connects devolution — would somehow magically connects devolution with— would somehow magically connects devolution with gb _ would somehow magically connects devolution with gb energy - would somehow magically connects devolution with gb energy and - would somehow magically connectsj devolution with gb energy and local government— devolution with gb energy and local government signed _ devolution with gb energy and local government signed with _ devolution with gb energy and local government signed with all - devolution with gb energy and local government signed with all sorts i devolution with gb energy and local government signed with all sorts of| government signed with all sorts of things— government signed with all sorts of things which — government signed with all sorts of things which are _ government signed with all sorts of things which are above _ government signed with all sorts of things which are above thing - government signed with all sorts of things which are above thing in i things which are above thing in commoh — things which are above thing in commoh so _ things which are above thing in common. so it— things which are above thing in common. so it is— things which are above thing in common. so it is always - things which are above thing in common. so it is always hard i things which are above thing inl common. so it is always hard to things which are above thing in i common. so it is always hard to do that so— common. so it is always hard to do that so i_ common. so it is always hard to do that so i would _ common. so it is always hard to do that so i would be _ common. so it is always hard to do that so i would be looking - common. so it is always hard to do that so i would be looking at - that so i would be looking at something _ that so i would be looking at something like _ that so i would be looking at something like investment l that so i would be looking ati something like investment or that so i would be looking at - something like investment or renewal or something — something like investment or renewal or something like _ something like investment or renewal or something like wealth. _ something like investment or renewal or something like wealth. i— something like investment or renewal or something like wealth. i would i or something like wealth. i would think— or something like wealth. i would think about — or something like wealth. i would think about the _ or something like wealth. i would think about the idea _ or something like wealth. i would think about the idea of— or something like wealth. i would think about the idea of wealth, i or something like wealth. i would i think about the idea of wealth, the commonwealth. _ think about the idea of wealth, the commonwealth. a _ think about the idea of wealth, the commonwealth. a wealthy - think about the idea of wealth, the commonwealth. a wealthy nation, | commonwealth. a wealthy nation, which _ commonwealth. a wealthy nation, which is _ commonwealth. a wealthy nation, which is wealthy _ commonwealth. a wealthy nation, which is wealthy in _ commonwealth. a wealthy nation, which is wealthy in every - commonwealth. a wealthy nation, which is wealthy in every way, i commonwealth. a wealthy nation, which is wealthy in every way, richj which is wealthy in every way, rich in possibility. _ which is wealthy in every way, rich in possibility. in— which is wealthy in every way, rich in possibility, in opportunity, i which is wealthy in every way, rich in possibility, in opportunity, not. in possibility, in opportunity, not 'ust in possibility, in opportunity, not just rich— in possibility, in opportunity, not just rich in— in possibility, in opportunity, not just rich in prosperity— in possibility, in opportunity, not just rich in prosperity terms. it. in possibility, in opportunity, not just rich in prosperity terms. it is that kind — just rich in prosperity terms. it is that kind of— just rich in prosperity terms. it is that kind of praise _ just rich in prosperity terms. it is that kind of praise that— just rich in prosperity terms. it is that kind of praise that gives i just rich in prosperity terms. it is that kind of praise that gives youj just rich in prosperity terms. it is. that kind of praise that gives you a lot and _ that kind of praise that gives you a lot and you — that kind of praise that gives you a lot and you can— that kind of praise that gives you a lot and you can put _ that kind of praise that gives you a lot and you can put a _ that kind of praise that gives you a lot and you can put a lot _ that kind of praise that gives you a lot and you can put a lot onto i that kind of praise that gives you a| lot and you can put a lot onto that. it is lot and you can put a lot onto that. it is all— lot and you can put a lot onto that. it is all in _ lot and you can put a lot onto that. it is all in the — lot and you can put a lot onto that. it is all in the service _ lot and you can put a lot onto that. it is all in the service of— it is all in the service of modernisation- it is all in the service of modernisation because| it is all in the service of- modernisation because the thing it is all in the service of— modernisation because the thing that unites— modernisation because the thing that unites 1945— modernisation because the thing that unites i945 and — modernisation because the thing that unites 1945 and 1997— modernisation because the thing that unites 1945 and 1997 with _ modernisation because the thing that unites 1945 and 1997 with now- modernisation because the thing that unites 1945 and 1997 with now is i modernisation because the thing that unites 1945 and 1997 with now is the| unites 1945 and 1997 with now is the need for— unites 1945 and 1997 with now is the

need for modernisation, _ unites 1945 and 1997 with now is the need for modernisation, the - unites 1945 and 1997 with now is the need for modernisation, the need i unites 1945 and 1997 with now is the| need for modernisation, the need to repair— need for modernisation, the need to repair and _ need for modernisation, the need to repairand rebuild _ need for modernisation, the need to repair and rebuild and _ need for modernisation, the need to repair and rebuild and renew. - need for modernisation, the need to repairand rebuild and renew. it- repairand rebuild and renew. it is using _ repairand rebuild and renew. it is using all— repairand rebuild and renew. it is using all those _ repairand rebuild and renew. it is using all those ideas _ repairand rebuild and renew. it is using all those ideas but- repairand rebuild and renew. it is using all those ideas but you i repairand rebuild and renew. it is using all those ideas but you have to find _ using all those ideas but you have to find a _ using all those ideas but you have to find a way— using all those ideas but you have to find a way to _ using all those ideas but you have to find a way to make _ using all those ideas but you have to find a way to make them - using all those ideas but you have to find a way to make them freshi to find a way to make them fresh because — to find a way to make them fresh because very _ to find a way to make them fresh because very easy— to find a way to make them fresh because very easy to _ to find a way to make them fresh because very easy to sail - to find a way to make them fresh because very easy to sail those l because very easy to sail those things— because very easy to sail those things and _ because very easy to sail those things and make _ because very easy to sail those things and make them - because very easy to sail those things and make them sound . because very easy to sail those i things and make them sound very boring _ things and make them sound very boring but— things and make them sound very boring but something _ things and make them sound very boring but something like - things and make them sound very boring but something like that - things and make them sound very| boring but something like that and things and make them sound very. boring but something like that and a common_ boring but something like that and a common wealth, _ boring but something like that and a common wealth, which _ boring but something like that and a common wealth, which is _ boring but something like that and a common wealth, which is a - boring but something like that and a common wealth, which is a question begging _ common wealth, which is a question begging thing — common wealth, which is a question begging thing because _ common wealth, which is a question begging thing because it— common wealth, which is a question begging thing because it sounds- begging thing because it sounds guiie _ begging thing because it sounds guiie iefi — begging thing because it sounds quite left but _ begging thing because it sounds quite left but it— begging thing because it sounds quite left but it is— begging thing because it sounds quite left but it is also— begging thing because it sounds quite left but it is also talking i quite left but it is also talking about — quite left but it is also talking about wealth _ quite left but it is also talking about wealth and _ quite left but it is also talking about wealth and you have i quite left but it is also talking about wealth and you have a i quite left but it is also talking . about wealth and you have a lot quite left but it is also talking - about wealth and you have a lot you can do _ about wealth and you have a lot you can do with — about wealth and you have a lot you can do with a — about wealth and you have a lot you can do with a phrase _ about wealth and you have a lot you can do with a phrase like _ about wealth and you have a lot you can do with a phrase like that, - about wealth and you have a lot you can do with a phrase like that, but. can do with a phrase like that, but it is also— can do with a phrase like that, but it is also not— can do with a phrase like that, but it is also not somehow— can do with a phrase like that, but it is also not somehow incredibly i it is also not somehow incredibly arcane _ it is also not somehow incredibly arcane and — it is also not somehow incredibly arcane and difficult _ it is also not somehow incredibly arcane and difficult for _ it is also not somehow incredibly arcane and difficult for people i it is also not somehow incredibly arcane and difficult for people toi arcane and difficult for people to understand _ arcane and difficult for people to understand-— arcane and difficult for people to understand. g t, h, m a, understand. jason, your front page tomorrow. — understand. jason, your front page tomorrow. it _ understand. jason, your front page tomorrow, it is _ understand. jason, your front page tomorrow, it is about _ understand. jason, your front page tomorrow, it is about mick - understand. jason, your front page tomorrow, it is about mick lynch . understand. jason, your front page | tomorrow, it is about mick lynch of the rmt, your colleague wrote the story, apparently he wants to seize the uk economy and take it to work? come on! he the uk economy and take it to work? come on! ., , ., ., come on! he was at a fringe meeting toda and come on! he was at a fringe meeting today and said _ come on! he was at a fringe meeting today and said rachel— come on! he was at a fringe meeting today and said rachel reeves - come on! he was at a fringe meeting today and said rachel reeves has - today and said rachel reeves has been talking about the price and he said the price for the unions is complete control of the economy and by the trade unions, but as their aim. the point of the story is that you are seeing this week the unions

flexing their muscles are bit, mick lynch is a bit of an outlier but you have others as well. you have had sharon graham on your show earlier, they was brewing in the hole this morning when the unite union resolution on winter fuel was punted off completely to wednesday, when rachel reeves was giving her speech, this afternoon, talking about how they are ending the industrial strife in the public sector, while she was speaking, while she was saying those words the rcn announced hang on out, they will have another strike. so i don't think they have put the unions to bed at all and the unions don't feel like they have been put to bed and that has mixed ambition. d0 been put to bed and that has mixed ambition. , ., ., been put to bed and that has mixed ambition. y., ., , , ., ambition. do you need to be put to bed? it is getting _ ambition. do you need to be put to bed? it is getting late. _ ambition. do you need to be put to bed? it is getting late. no, - ambition. do you need to be put to bed? it is getting late. no, i- ambition. do you need to be put to bed? it is getting late. no, ithinkl bed? it is getting late. no, ithink what you're _ bed? it is getting late. no, ithink what you're hearing _ bed? it is getting late. no, ithink what you're hearing from - bed? it is getting late. no, ithink what you're hearing from trade i what you're hearing from trade unions, — what you're hearing from trade unions, for— what you're hearing from trade unions, for us one of the jewels in the crime — unions, for us one of the jewels in the crime of— unions, for us one of the jewels in the crime of the manifesto with the new deat— the crime of the manifesto with the new deal for workers and that was there _ new deal for workers and that was there because unions pushed and pushed _ there because unions pushed and pushed and pushed. i think i was chairing — pushed and pushed. i think i was chairing the session that nicholls

had earlier and what is more