an explosive resignation from labour, and here in birmingham, the tory rivals gather. there's tonnes to talk about — good morning. good morning, good morning. kemi badenoch the former business secretary and robertjenrick, the former immigraiton minister, seem to be the two front runners and they're both here. in the interests of fairness we're going to toss a coin for who'll go first. kemi, if it is heads, you get to chooseif kemi, if it is heads, you get to choose if you are first or second? are you up for it? risky to do on

live television. it is tales, would you like to go first or second, robertjenrick? i you like to go first or second, robert jenrick?_ you like to go first or second, - robert jenrick?_ and robert jenrick? i will go first. and tell us something _ robert jenrick? i will go first. and tell us something you _ robert jenrick? i will go first. and tell us something you like - robert jenrick? i will go first. and tell us something you like about l tell us something you like about each other. kemi, what is something you like about robert? i like each other. kemi, what is something you like about robert?— you like about robert? i like the fact he is a _ you like about robert? i like the fact he is a good _ you like about robert? i like the fact he is a good family man. . you like about robert? i like the l fact he is a good family man. and what is fact he is a good family man. fific what is something you fact he is a good family man. fific what is something you like fact he is a good family man. el"ic what is something you like about kemi? . , , is what is something you like about. kemi?_ is something kemi? her directness. is something ou kemi? her directness. is something you disagree — kemi? her directness. is something you disagree about _ kemi? her directness. is something you disagree about whether - kemi? her directness. is something| you disagree about whether robert? we agree a lot, we have disagreements on immigration policy but they— disagreements on immigration policy but they are minor in the grand scheme — but they are minor in the grand scheme of— but they are minor in the grand scheme of things. and but they are minor in the grand scheme of things. but they are minor in the grand scheme of thins. �* scheme of things. and something you disauree scheme of things. and something you disagree with — scheme of things. and something you disagree with kemi _ scheme of things. and something you disagree with kemi about? _ scheme of things. and something you disagree with kemi about? we - disagree with kemi about? we disauree disagree with kemi about? - disagree with kemi about? - disagree with how we solve the migration puzzle but i think you will ask is that in a few moments time. ., , , ., , , will ask is that in a few moments time. .,, i. , , ., time. robert, you will be first and kemi will be _ time. robert, you will be first and kemi will be second. _ we'll be hearing from the mp rosie duffield who quit yesterday — accusing the prime minister of putting greed and power first.

here we we are and its daily revelations of hypocrisy and grubby kind of...presents and things. i mean, i can't believe what i'm reading. how will cabinet minister pat mcfadden, one of keir starmer�*s most important allies, whojoins us, respond? and joining me throughout the show, we have tom fletcher, who used to be ambassador for the uk in lebanon, and worked for three differnet prime ministers in no 10. jake berry, who was the tory chairman under liz truss. and penny mordaunt who was defence secretary and ran to be leader last time round. a warm welcome to all three of you here. but first, let's have a look at what's making the news this morning. this is the live picture of what is happening in beirut, in lebanon. there is huge attention on what happen now with the leader of the prescribed terror group hezbollah killed by an israeli strike. the tensions make the front page of the observer and the indepenent —

the aggression between israel and iran that backs hezbollah. the sunday telegraph splashes on mp rosie duffield quiting labour over its "freebie scandal". and it also headlines a claim from conservative leadership candidate kemi badenoch that not all cultures are equally valid. we will talk to her about that later. and the mail on sunday has borisjohnson saying he's now convinced covid was made in a chinese lab. there is a lot to talk about this morning. let's start with lebanon, where anxiety is high. the country has declared five days of mourning of hassan nasrallah. tens of thousands of people have fled. and there are fears, of course, among those with british connections who are there as flights and ferries to leave are being cancelled or suspended. an hour ago, i spoke to emma bartholomew, a british citizen who's trying to get home. i'm very fortunate and i realise how fortunate i am now, just because of the sheer lack of flights available.

early last week, i managed to bring an existing flight forward and i'm booked on one currently next weekend. so that feels, that feels like a very lucky find. but, of course, as the situation has escalated, i have been looking into any alternative options — soonerflights, anything that might be available and there's simply nothing. in terms of the safety and security of the airport, though, is that changing? we've heard that there might have been bombardment getting very close to the airport? yes, we did hear reports of that and see quite daunting images of that last night and i've seen passenger footage of flames and explosions as people have either been landing or taking off. do you feel that the british government has been helping you try to leave? so far, i think the contact has been

fairly minimal, to be honest. they have made sure that all of us british citizens who are here in lebanon are registered and i think, perhaps naively, i was hopeful that we might receive some evacuation information by this point. but i balance that with genuinely understanding that this is a really challenging and really difficult time and so i did speak to an emergency consulate assistant in the london office yesterday. i think that the local office is probably operating on a very skeleton staff situation at the moment, which, again, is understandable but equally can be slightly alarming when we're trying to communicate with them.

of course, we wish emma and anyone else trying to get home well tried to do that. tom, can you help us with the basics, it is a really complicated situation but hassan nasrallah's killing, has that changed things? it nasrallah's killing, has that changed things?— nasrallah's killing, has that changed things? it has changed everything- _ changed things? it has changed everything- the _ changed things? it has changed everything. the region - changed things? it has changed everything. the region is - changed things? it has changed everything. the region is on - changed things? it has changed| everything. the region is on the brink of a really dangerous, catastrophic escalation. citizens across israel, palestine and lebanon and far beyond are braced for that moment. this was a seismic, another seismic moment in a year of seismic moments in the region. hassan nasrallah was the most powerful person notjust in lebanon but one of the most powerful people in the middle east. i remember many evenings sat there with the bodyguards listening to his broadcasts, wondering whether we were safe or not, whether the region would tip further into danger or away from it. the reality was, he could have taken me out at he wanted and he took out many of his opponents. he has hard power, street

muscle and soft power, he controlled the infrastructure in the south, was an extraordinary communicator, a malign genius and we are now waiting to see if the hardliners in tehran, tel aviv and elsewhere will dial this up, which would have horrific civilian consequences. $5 this up, which would have horrific civilian consequences. as defence secretary in _ civilian consequences. as defence secretary in other _ civilian consequences. as defence secretary in otherjobs _ civilian consequences. as defence secretary in otherjobs you - civilian consequences. as defence secretary in otherjobs you did - civilian consequences. as defence | secretary in otherjobs you did you have been in those kinds of meetings in government when you have huge and complicated anxiety inducing moments like this, what you think that thinking in government will be? the immediate priority is the safety of british_ immediate priority is the safety of british nationals and a huge amount of work_ british nationals and a huge amount of work is _ british nationals and a huge amount of work is on with that with our armed — of work is on with that with our armed forces. the key to this is israei's — armed forces. the key to this is israel's security. israel does care about— israel's security. israel does care about international humanitarian law and about _ about international humanitarian law and about the principle of proportionality. we need to understand how what they have found in gaza _ understand how what they have found in gaza has— understand how what they have found in gaza has rocked them and that they view— in gaza has rocked them and that they view what they are doing as a proportionate response. so that needs— proportionate response. so that needs to — proportionate response. so that needs to be the focus for the british— needs to be the focus for the british government. israel's security— british government. israel's

security and ensuring the plan that is on _ security and ensuring the plan that is on the _ security and ensuring the plan that is on the table is agreed to. that is on the table is agreed to. that is very— is on the table is agreed to. that is very difficult but that needs to be is very difficult but that needs to he the _ is very difficult but that needs to be the diplomatic focus. we is very difficult but that needs to be the diplomatic focus.- be the diplomatic focus. we will talk about that _ be the diplomatic focus. we will talk about that more _ be the diplomatic focus. we will talk about that more it - be the diplomatic focus. we will talk about that more it later - be the diplomatic focus. we will talk about that more it later in l be the diplomatic focus. we will i talk about that more it later in the programme because in the last few days the diplomacy from the uk and us didn't come to anything as we ended up in this worse situation. jake, let's turn to what's happening here. as a senior tory who has seen the party through many ups and downs, how would you describe the state of the tory party now as they are looking at each other and deciding what their action should be? it deciding what their action should be? , ., deciding what their action should be? , . ., , deciding what their action should be? , ., .,, be? it is great to be back in birmingham _ be? it is great to be back in birmingham for _ be? it is great to be back in birmingham for the - be? it is great to be back in - birmingham for the conference, it is a great _ birmingham for the conference, it is a great city— birmingham for the conference, it is a great city and _ birmingham for the conference, it is a great city and we _ birmingham for the conference, it is a great city and we love _ birmingham for the conference, it is a great city and we love coming - a great city and we love coming here _ a great city and we love coming here in— a great city and we love coming here ina— a great city and we love coming here ma way, _ a great city and we love coming here. in a way, for— a great city and we love coming here. in a way, for the - a great city and we love coming - here. in a way, for the conservative party. _ here. in a way, for the conservative party. it's _ here. in a way, for the conservative party. it's a — here. in a way, for the conservative party. it's a really— here. in a way, for the conservative party, it's a really important - party, it's a really important conference _ party, it's a really important conference. we _ party, it's a really important conference. we have - party, it's a really important conference. we have had . party, it's a really important conference. we have had a i party, it's a really important - conference. we have had a terrible election— conference. we have had a terrible election defeat, _ conference. we have had a terrible election defeat, a _ conference. we have had a terrible election defeat, a lot _ conference. we have had a terrible election defeat, a lot of— conference. we have had a terrible election defeat, a lot of the - election defeat, a lot of the conference _ election defeat, a lot of the conference will— election defeat, a lot of the conference will be - election defeat, a lot of the i conference will be dominated election defeat, a lot of the - conference will be dominated not quite _ conference will be dominated not quite with— conference will be dominated not quite with the _ conference will be dominated not quite with the postmortem - conference will be dominated not quite with the postmortem but. conference will be dominated not l quite with the postmortem but why the offer _ quite with the postmortem but why the offer we — quite with the postmortem but why the offer we made _ quite with the postmortem but why the offer we made to— quite with the postmortem but why the offer we made to the _ quite with the postmortem but why the offer we made to the british i the offer we made to the british people — the offer we made to the british people were _ the offer we made to the british people were so _ the offer we made to the british people were so badly— the offer we made to the british people were so badly rejected . the offer we made to the british . people were so badly rejected and also looking — people were so badly rejected and also looking to _ people were so badly rejected and also looking to the _ people were so badly rejected and also looking to the future, - people were so badly rejected and also looking to the future, about i also looking to the future, about who will— also looking to the future, about who will lead _ also looking to the future, about who will lead to _ also looking to the future, about who will lead to the _ also looking to the future, about who will lead to the official- who will lead to the official opposition— who will lead to the official opposition to _ who will lead to the official opposition to take - who will lead to the official opposition to take on - who will lead to the official opposition to take on the l who will lead to the official- opposition to take on the labour party— opposition to take on the labour party to — opposition to take on the labour party to make _ opposition to take on the labour party to make sure _ opposition to take on the labour party to make sure we _ opposition to take on the labour party to make sure we can- opposition to take on the labour party to make sure we can get. party to make sure we can get ourselves — party to make sure we can get ourselves fighting _

party to make sure we can get ourselves fighting fit - party to make sure we can get ourselves fighting fit to - party to make sure we can get ourselves fighting fit to servel party to make sure we can get. ourselves fighting fit to serve the british— ourselves fighting fit to serve the british people _ ourselves fighting fit to serve the british people again. _ ourselves fighting fit to serve the british people again. it _ ourselves fighting fit to serve the british people again. it is - ourselves fighting fit to serve the british people again. it is not - ourselves fighting fit to serve thej british people again. it is notjust enough _ british people again. it is notjust enough for— british people again. it is notjust enough for us _ british people again. it is notjust enough for us as _ british people again. it is notjust enough for us as a _ british people again. it is notjust enough for us as a party, - british people again. it is notjustl enough for us as a party, speaking to a lot _ enough for us as a party, speaking to a lot of— enough for us as a party, speaking to a lot of delegates, _ enough for us as a party, speaking to a lot of delegates, they- enough for us as a party, speaking to a lot of delegates, they feel - to a lot of delegates, they feel quite _ to a lot of delegates, they feel quite upbeat _ to a lot of delegates, they feel quite upbeat because - to a lot of delegates, they feel quite upbeat because the - to a lot of delegates, they feel i quite upbeat because the labour party— quite upbeat because the labour party is— quite upbeat because the labour party is making _ quite upbeat because the labour party is making such— quite upbeat because the labour party is making such a _ quite upbeat because the labour party is making such a mess - quite upbeat because the labour party is making such a mess of. party is making such a mess of things — party is making such a mess of things but _ party is making such a mess of things. but that _ party is making such a mess of things. but that is _ party is making such a mess of things. but that is not- party is making such a mess of things. but that is not the - party is making such a mess ofl things. but that is not the same thing _ things. but that is not the same thing as— things. but that is not the same thing as the _ things. but that is not the same thing as the conservative - things. but that is not the same thing as the conservative partyl thing as the conservative party heing _ thing as the conservative party heing fighting _ thing as the conservative party being fighting fit _ thing as the conservative party being fighting fit again. - thing as the conservative party being fighting fit again. we - thing as the conservative party| being fighting fit again. we will hear from — being fighting fit again. we will hear from all— being fighting fit again. we will hear from all the _ being fighting fit again. we will hear from all the candidates i being fighting fit again. we will. hear from all the candidates here and i_ hear from all the candidates here and i hope — hear from all the candidates here and i hope that— hear from all the candidates here and i hope that members- hear from all the candidates here and i hope that members who . hear from all the candidates herei and i hope that members who see the four fantastic candidates we have make the right— fantastic candidates we have make the right choice _ was not let's hear from two of them this morning — was not let's hear from two of them this morning because _ was not let's hear from two of them this morning because that - was not let's hear from two of them this morning because that is - was not let's hear from two of them this morning because that is why. was not let's hear from two of them| this morning because that is why we are in— this morning because that is why we are in birmingham. _ no leader's speech, but four wannabe leaders' speeches — from tom tunghadt, and james cleverly, both of whom we've spoken to this month, and robertjenrick and kemi badenoch, who are chasing for thejob, and are here this morning. robert is first up. he won the coin toss. he started his career as a solicitor, then became the mp for newark in 2014, rose to become housing secretary, then immigration minister, the quit over rishi sunak�*s approach, saying he hadn't gone far enough — you probably remember him coming blasting into the studio with his reasons why.

so let's speak to him this morning. robert, just after the election, you said the reason you lost was fundamentally failed to keep the promises you had made to the public. immigration is that they knew have raised time and time again. is it above all else the thing that you would put at the top of your list to fix? it would put at the top of your list to fix? , , , ., ., , fix? it is, but it is not the only thin. fix? it is, but it is not the only thing- in _ fix? it is, but it is not the only thing- in the _ fix? it is, but it is not the only thing. in the article _ fix? it is, but it is not the only thing. in the article that - fix? it is, but it is not the only thing. in the article that i - fix? it is, but it is not the only. thing. in the article that i wrote in the hours after the election and then i came on your show that weekend, i said we failed to deliver on the economy, on the nhs and our borders. so there are multiple failures that we need to acknowledge as a party, whilst obviously defending the things we got right in government and then we to have listen to the public. and set out serious answers to those challenges. i have spent the last few months thinking very deeply about how we do that. i don't want to waste the next five years debating those things, thatis five years debating those things, that is a recipe for more infighting and for further loss of public trust. i want to use this leadership

contest for us to settle those things and have a clear plan as to how we take our party and our country forward and i have that in particular on immigration. in terms of immigration. — particular on immigration. in terms of immigration, as _ particular on immigration. in terms of immigration, as you _ particular on immigration. in terms of immigration, as you said, - particular on immigration. in terms of immigration, as you said, you i of immigration, as you said, you lost your reputation on immigration and also on managing the economy and that's always what the conservatives put front and centre and were very proud of that. many businesses would say you take a much firmer line on immigration and really cut the numbers there will be a price to pay, the economy would suffer as a result. are you willing to see the economy not grow as quickly or even take a hit if you are able to do your number one priority and cut the numbers of immigrants?— your number one priority and cut the numbers of immigrants? firstly, i do want to net numbers of immigrants? firstly, i do want to get the _ numbers of immigrants? firstly, i do want to get the economy _ numbers of immigrants? firstly, i do want to get the economy growing - want to get the economy growing faster again. want to get the economy growing fasteragain. i want to get the economy growing faster again. i want to reclaim the mantle for the conservative party of low tax and progrowth but i don't agree that the age of mass migration has made our country richer. in the 25 years since tony blair became prime minister we have had 5.9 million people coming into our

country legally. it was 59,000 in the 25 years prior to that and that has not been a period of record growth, record productivity. in fact, farfrom it. a report set out the level of migration and the types of people coming into our country, which are mostly low—wage and low skilled people and costing the economy money. the 0br... they said i was right on that. economy money. the obr. .. they said i was right on that.— i was right on that. there is a question _ i was right on that. there is a question of — i was right on that. there is a question of principle, - i was right on that. there is a question of principle, that. i was right on that. there is a i question of principle, that many people want to see immigration come down but many people want there to be enough carers in the social care sector, for example. they want there to be enough nurses in the nhs, enough people available to work in the bars and restaurants when they go to london for a special weekend of treats. it is an important question of principle. would you be willing to see jobs stay vacant, the economy perhaps shrink or not grow as fast as you would like it to but if the numbers of immigrants came down? would that be a price worth paying? down? would that be a price worth -a in: ? , , down? would that be a price worth .a in. ? , , ., , down? would that be a price worth .a ini ? , , ., , , down? would that be a price worth ain? ,_, paying? firstly, and this is an important _ paying? firstly, and this is an

important point _ paying? firstly, and this is an important point of _ paying? firstly, and this is an important point of difference | paying? firstly, and this is an i important point of difference in this leadership contest, i have to make clear we are going to do this this time. because we love so much trust by failing to deliver this in the past. that means parliament setting a legally binding cap on migration in the tens of thousands or lower, otherwise politicians cannot look the public in the eye and say this is definitely happening. that was at the heart of the reason i resigned as a minister because i didn't want to bejust another minister who made and broken promises. fin another minister who made and broken romises. , ., another minister who made and broken romises. i. , , . . promises. on your specific point... the cost that _ promises. on your specific point... the cost that might _ promises. on your specific point... the cost that might have? - promises. on your specific point... the cost that might have? i - promises. on your specific point... the cost that might have? i don't l the cost that might have? i don't retend the cost that might have? i don't pretend ending — the cost that might have? i don't pretend ending this _ the cost that might have? i don't pretend ending this era _ the cost that might have? i don't pretend ending this era of- the cost that might have? i don't pretend ending this era of mass i pretend ending this era of mass migration is plain sailing, it requires us to link up our skills policy and welfare policy and have a proper plan of how to handle this. but i don't think it needs to cost us money. there are millions of people in our country on welfare. i want to help those people into the dignity and security of work. i want to ensure that we are paying care workers more money. that is a better way for our country to conduct itself, ratherthan way for our country to conduct itself, rather than bringing in people from overseas. bill itself, rather than bringing in people from overseas.- itself, rather than bringing in people from overseas. all of those thin i s people from overseas. all of those things may — people from overseas. all of those

things may well — people from overseas. all of those things may well be _ people from overseas. all of those things may well be desired, - things may well be desired, desirable, but would you be willing to see jobs go unfilled in order to get the numbers of people moving to this country to come down? i don't think that will happen but this is a central challenge. if you are asking would i prioritise it, i would. i think our party and politics generally has lost so much trust notjust in recent years but throughout my adult lifetime because politician after politician has promised to fix this problem to control and reduce migration and done the opposite. i am not prepared to do that. that is why we have to have this cap set by parliament because out of the democratic lock, so we can say to the public this is going to happen next time. some miiht sa going to happen next time. some might say the _ going to happen next time. some might say the problem _ going to happen next time. some might say the problem has - going to happen next time. some might say the problem has not i going to happen next time. some might say the problem has not been the particular definitions, targets. your government had a target for

many years. some think the home office where you were a minister has office where you were a minister has been a shambles and that is why immigration policy has failed because of the backlog of lists of people waiting for cases to be considered has gone up and up and people have been put up in hotels that has cost billions. you were a minister in the department meant to sort this out and it failed. d0 minister in the department meant to sort this out and it failed.— sort this out and it failed. do you have responsibility? _ sort this out and it failed. do you have responsibility? when - sort this out and it failed. do you have responsibility? when i - sort this out and it failed. do you have responsibility? when i wasl sort this out and it failed. do you l have responsibility? when i was in the home office i entered a department in ashes in my year in the home office i worked relentlessly on illegal migration to secure the biggest change to that system in my lifetime, to ensure those coming into the country illegally goes down by 300000 and you can see that flowing into the numbers. 0n illegal migration i was the only minister to reduce the number of people coming across and i got deportations up by 80% in the year but that was not enough which is why i resigned. i was not able to

persuade the prime minister and those in cabinet we needed to do more. ., ., ., , , ., more. you failed to persuade colleagues. _ more. you failed to persuade colleagues, as _ more. you failed to persuade colleagues, as you _ more. you failed to persuade colleagues, as you did - more. you failed to persuade colleagues, as you did when l more. you failed to persuade i colleagues, as you did when you more. you failed to persuade - colleagues, as you did when you are housing minister, you did not build more houses. being the leader of opposition is thejob more houses. being the leader of opposition is the job that perhaps needs more persuasion than anyjob in politics. how can you think the country will think you can take another look at the tories? in my tent at the _ another look at the tories? in my tent at the number _ another look at the tories? in my tent at the number of _ another look at the tories? in my tent at the number of homes - another look at the tories? in my. tent at the number of homes being built reached the highest level since 1987 and then fell back after i was there. my record is strong. 0n illegal migration, there is no way we will fix this by tinkering around the edges, changing processes. i have done those things. i have thought about this. we will never secure borders, never get dangerous criminals and terrorists out of the country unless we leave the european convention on human rights. [30

country unless we leave the european convention on human rights.- convention on human rights. do you airee with convention on human rights. do you agree with kemi _ convention on human rights. do you agree with kemi badenoch _ convention on human rights. do you agree with kemi badenoch some - agree with kemi badenoch some cultures are lest valid than others? culture matters for integration. it is an important question. where we disagree is on the fact that numbers also matter. that is ultimately what is putting pressure on housing, public services and community cohesion, so you have to have a cap. we also disagree on the centrality on leaving the european convention on leaving the european convention on human rights. just saying i will have a plan in a few years is a recipe for infighting and losing public trust. i have a plan and want us to implement that when we are lucky enough to be in government again. do lucky enough to be in government aiain. ,, , lucky enough to be in government aiain. , ., again. do you still back donald trump even — again. do you still back donald trump even though _ again. do you still back donald trump even though now - again. do you still back donald trump even though now he - again. do you still back donald trump even though now he is. trump even though now he is convicted and found liable for sexual abuse and has spread lies about immigrants in the us? i am a

conservative _ about immigrants in the us? i am a conservative and _ about immigrants in the us? i am a conservative and we _ about immigrants in the us? i am a conservative and we have _ about immigrants in the us? i am a conservative and we have strong i conservative and we have strong links to the republican party so it is natural we would lean towards republican candidates. it will be a close race. i respect kamala harris and would seek to work constructively with whoever is the next president. i think it is naturalfor a next president. i think it is natural for a conservative to lean towards a republican candidate. i will work with whoever is present. it sounds like you will not back donald trump. b5 it sounds like you will not back donald trump.— it sounds like you will not back donald trump. as a conservative i lean towards _ donald trump. as a conservative i lean towards the _ donald trump. as a conservative i lean towards the republican i donald trump. as a conservative i lean towards the republican partyj lean towards the republican party and it is natural we back their candidate but as a future leader of the opposition, prospective prime minister, i would work with whoever leads the united states.— minister, i would work with whoever leads the united states. theresa may sa s ou leads the united states. theresa may says you should _ leads the united states. theresa may says you should be _ leads the united states. theresa may says you should be worried _ leads the united states. theresa may says you should be worried about i leads the united states. theresa may says you should be worried about the| says you should be worried about the lib dems. who is the bigger enemy, nigel farage, ed davey? i lib dems. who is the bigger enemy, nigel farage, ed davey?— nigel farage, ed davey? i want to take on both _ nigel farage, ed davey? i want to take on both and _ nigel farage, ed davey? i want to take on both and do _ nigel farage, ed davey? i want to take on both and do not _ nigel farage, ed davey? i want to take on both and do not believe . nigel farage, ed davey? i want to i take on both and do not believe you have to pick a lane. i want to bring back people we lost to reform by

leaving echr. back people we lost to reform by leaving emit-— leaving echr. dealing with migration- _ leaving echr. dealing with migration. last _ leaving echr. dealing with migration. last question. i leaving echr. dealing with i migration. last question. what is the most conservative think about you? i the most conservative think about ou? , ., , ,., , you? i believe in opportunity. i new u- you? i believe in opportunity. i grew up in— you? i believe in opportunity. i grew up in the _ you? i believe in opportunity. i grew up in the west _ you? i believe in opportunity. i grew up in the west midlands. you? i believe in opportunity. i. grew up in the west midlands to working—class parents who came here, started a business. my values are rooted in my family, the places i have lived in, the small town in nottinghamshire i represent. i want the conservative party to be the trade union for the working people of this country.— of this country. robert jenrick, thank you- _ of this country. robert jenrick, thank you- he _ of this country. robert jenrick, thank you. he said _ of this country. robert jenrick, thank you. he said he - of this country. robert jenrick, thank you. he said he will i of this country. robert jenrick, thank you. he said he will be l of this country. robert jenrick, i thank you. he said he will be going to 50 events in the next few days. all candidates will be put through their paces on the main stage and take questions from people who will be sitting in the audience and they will be giving a 20 minute speech on wednesday afternoon. whoever manages to make it through that still has another few weeks of the leadership contest to get through. 0n another few weeks of the leadership contest to get through. on october the 9th and tenth tory mps whittle it down to the final two. kemi

badenoch, it looks like she will be one of the final pair. let's see. she started her career as a software engineer, then worked in the financial sector. she became an mp in 2017, then was trade secretary in the cabinet — now she's the shadow housing secretary. a warm welcome. you have written about immigration. youright we cannot assume all cultures are equally valid. which cultures in your view are less valid than others? ., , ., . , ., others? lots of cultures that believe in — others? lots of cultures that believe in child _ others? lots of cultures that believe in child marriage i others? lots of cultures that believe in child marriage for| believe in child marriage for instance or that women do not have equal rights. it is extraordinary people thank matt is an unusual thing to say. not all cultures are valid equally. i believe in western values, principles that have made this country great and i think we need to ensure we abide by principles to keep the society we

have. ~ . principles to keep the society we have. i i i , i, principles to keep the society we have. i i , i, have. which cultures would you say are less valid? _ have. which cultures would you say are less valid? words, _ have. which cultures would you say are less valid? words, you - have. which cultures would you say are less valid? words, you said i are less valid? words, you said people think it is controversial to say. which would you say are less valid? it say. which would you say are less valid? , i, ., ., , valid? it is not about labelling cultures. culture _ valid? it is not about labelling cultures. culture includes i valid? it is not about labelling cultures. culture includes a i valid? it is not about labelling| cultures. culture includes a lot valid? it is not about labelling i cultures. culture includes a lot of things. i am cultures. culture includes a lot of things. iam not cultures. culture includes a lot of things. i am not talking about cuisine, i am talking about cultures. cultures where women are told they should not work, i would knock on doors and i am sure penny and jake have, and you would see someone at the door who says i cannot speak to you i will get my husband. that is not valid. the point i was making was about immigration. immigration is something we need to make sure we get right and did not before and there are three things we needed to do. numbers matter. iwas there are three things we needed to do. numbers matter. i was surprised rob misrepresented what i said. culture matters even more. who comes into the country is critical. and leadership. we need to start from

the top. it is no good saying we will lower immigration, it has to come from the prime minister. fine come from the prime minister. are ou sa ini come from the prime minister. are you saying if _ come from the prime minister. are you saying if someone who lives in the uk, might be a british citizen, who answered the door and said i would like you to speak to my husband, are you saying... are you saying people with those beliefs should not be welcome in the uk? if we want an integrated society we need to ensure we have a shared culture and identity. it is a multiethnic society, that is obvious. there is a difference between being multiethnic and multicultural. i grew up in a place that was multicultural and yet everyone looks the same. conflict arises when you emphasise difference. you need to emphasise what we share, british values, freedom, equal rights, personal responsibility. not discriminating people because of their sexual

orientation. some cultures do that. i do not think a culture that thinks 93v i do not think a culture that thinks gay people should be stoned is as valid as ours. it is gay people should be stoned is as valid as ours— valid as ours. it is not controversial. - valid as ours. it is not controversial. are i valid as ours. it is notj controversial. are you valid as ours. it is not i controversial. are you by valid as ours. it is not _ controversial. are you by making this point, aren't you in fact emphasising difference by making this point? saying that if someone lives in this country and answer the door to you and say i would rather you speak to my husband, you judge their culture to be less valid. what their culture to be less valid. what are ou their culture to be less valid. what are you suggesting _ their culture to be less valid. mat are you suggesting politician should do in that case, that we should accept everything and it is fine and we should not comment on social relations we should have. it is our job to make sure the people who come into the country are people who love this country and want it to succeed. i want this country's culture to stay the same. i left another country and came here because i thought it was better. i do not want this place to turn into the place i

ran away from.— this place to turn into the place i ran away from. you say you were struck by — ran away from. you say you were struck by the _ ran away from. you say you were struck by the number _ ran away from. you say you were struck by the number of - ran away from. you say you were i struck by the number of immigrants who hate israel to use your words. who do you mean and how do you know that? �* i ., , who do you mean and how do you know that? �* ii, , ., who do you mean and how do you know that? �* , ., , i, that? because we are seeing it on social media. _ that? because we are seeing it on social media, hearing _ that? because we are seeing it on social media, hearing it. - that? because we are seeing it on social media, hearing it. one i social media, hearing it. one thing ifound most social media, hearing it. one thing i found most upsetting after october the 7th was watching people rip down posters of missing kidnapped children from walls and lamp posts in london. we have never seen that here. i think that is beyond the pale. here. i think that is beyond the ale. i, i, here. i think that is beyond the ale, i, i, here. i think that is beyond the ale. i, i, ,, i, here. i think that is beyond the ale. i, ,, i, here. i think that is beyond the ale. i, «e i, , ., pale. how do you know people who did that are recent _ pale. how do you know people who did that are recent immigrants? _ pale. how do you know people who did that are recent immigrants? if- pale. how do you know people who did that are recent immigrants? if you i that are recent immigrants? if you say you saw that on social media, is social media a reliable source? we can iet social media a reliable source? - can get into the nitty—gritty of that. i did not say recent immigrants hate israel, i am struck by the number of recent immigrants who hate israel. it is clear there are people who recently came to the country who brought views from where

they used to be, that have no place here. it is notjust about israel. i saw as equalities minister people bringing cultural disputes from india to the streets of leicester. i have seen it amongst african groups. we need to ensure when people come here they leave previous differences behind. it is not a controversial thing to say. behind. it is not a controversial thing to say-— behind. it is not a controversial thing to say. you pick out in your own words. _ thing to say. you pick out in your own words. in — thing to say. you pick out in your own words, in your _ thing to say. you pick out in your own words, in your piece - thing to say. you pick out in your own words, in your piece you i thing to say. you pick out in your own words, in your piece you say thing to say. you pick out in your- own words, in your piece you say you are struck by the number of immigrants who hate israel. we are sitting in birmingham, one of the most diverse cities. there is an implication you are talking about... you are making the implication. i am asking you to be specific about who you mean, they are sensitive topics. when you say recent immigrants who hate israel, who do you mean? i know what ou hate israel, who do you mean? i know what you are — hate israel, who do you mean? i know what you are trying — hate israel, who do you mean? i know what you are trying to do, _ hate israel, who do you mean? i know what you are trying to do, you - hate israel, who do you mean? i know what you are trying to do, you want i what you are trying to do, you want me to say muslims but it is not all

muslims so i will not do that, i will not play this game. i should be able to say i've made an observation without you portraying it as me attacking a particular group. i am nott ini attacking a particular group. i am rrot trying to _ attacking a particular group. i am not trying to portray _ attacking a particular group. i am not trying to portray it _ attacking a particular group. i am not trying to portray it in any way, i am asking on what evidence do you base this claim? i i am asking on what evidence do you base this claim?— base this claim? i told you, things that people _ base this claim? i told you, things that people write, _ base this claim? i told you, things that people write, people - base this claim? i told you, things that people write, people i i base this claim? i told you, things that people write, people i have i that people write, people i have met, observations, people ripping down posters, we read about cases. i have answered the question. i know what you are trying to get me to say and i am challenging you we need to be able to have conversations without being scared and running away. i am sitting here not because of that one line but because i am running for the conservative leadership and this is one of the things that has meant we have lost votes, we have stopped saying difficult things. we need to speak with moral clarity and honesty and if we don't we leave a vacuum for others who are not as mainstream to

do things that will create more social tension. we have to take the responsibility. you social tension. we have to take the responsibility-_ responsibility. you have a reputation _ responsibility. you have a reputation for _ responsibility. you have a reputation for speaking i responsibility. you have a i reputation for speaking with responsibility. you have a - reputation for speaking with clarity and saying what you think which is why i have tried you to say —— get you to say what you mean when you said these things. it is an important debate, but being exact about what you mean i think is what people watching will want you to do. if you don't spell these things are clearly, as you say leave room for doubt. i clearly, as you say leave room for doubt. h, ., clearly, as you say leave room for doubt. ., , ., , ., doubt. i cannot list the names of every person _ doubt. i cannot list the names of every person who _ doubt. i cannot list the names of every person who hates - doubt. i cannot list the names of every person who hates israel. l doubt. i cannot list the names of every person who hates israel. i | doubt. i cannot list the names of. every person who hates israel. i am making an observation. we need to make sure we uphold values in this country and not allow it to turn in the place that millions around the world are running from.— world are running from. should --eole world are running from. should people who _ world are running from. should people who hold _ world are running from. should people who hold those - world are running from. should people who hold those views, i world are running from. should i people who hold those views, are they not welcome in the uk? i don't think people — they not welcome in the uk? i don't think people who —

they not welcome in the uk? i don't think people who bring _ they not welcome in the uk? i don't think people who bring foreign - think people who bring foreign conflicts here should be welcome. people who come here should want to live in britain, should love the country and want to contribute and want it to succeed. we are not a dormitory, this is our home. having people from around the world living in their little groups is a recipe for disaster. i have seen it. i grew up for disaster. i have seen it. i grew up in a country with 300 ethnic groups. it is a recipe for conflict and government needs to work hard on integration. you cannotjust say as long as you get a good job and do not commit crime, that is too low a bar. ,, ., ,, , ., bar. should the nhs be free at the oint of bar. should the nhs be free at the point of use _ bar. should the nhs be free at the point of use for— bar. should the nhs be free at the point of use for ever? _ bar. should the nhs be free at the point of use for ever? that - bar. should the nhs be free at the point of use for ever? that is - bar. should the nhs be free at the point of use for ever? that is a - point of use for ever? that is a consensus _ point of use for ever? that is a consensus we _ point of use for ever? that is a consensus we have. _ point of use for ever? that is a consensus we have. there - point of use for ever? that is a consensus we have. there are | point of use for ever? that is a - consensus we have. there are many ways to deliver a free service that does not require the government to be involved in every aspect. does does not require the government to be involved in every aspect.- be involved in every aspect. does it stand as a principle. _ be involved in every aspect. does it stand as a principle. you _ be involved in every aspect. does it stand as a principle. you said - be involved in every aspect. does it stand as a principle. you said you i stand as a principle. you said you do not think we are ready for changing the principle of free at the point of use. certainly not

immediately. it implies maybe you should one day. it immediately. it implies maybe you should one day.— should one day. it might be the ublic should one day. it might be the public thinks — should one day. it might be the public thinks that. _ should one day. it might be the public thinks that. what - should one day. it might be the public thinks that. what is - should one day. it might be the public thinks that. what is your| public thinks that. what is your view? i have given you my view. i cannot say whether i might change my mind in the future, i can tell you what i think now. imilli mind in the future, i can tell you what i think now.— mind in the future, i can tell you what i think now. will you commit to 396 gdp defence _ what i think now. will you commit to 396 gdp defence spending? - what i think now. will you commit to 396 gdp defence spending? we - 3% gdp defence spending? - committed to that in the last government. at 3% by when? it is not a date i can give and one thing i am trying to do is make sure we start with principles rather than making announcements and setting targets. if we set targets we cannot deliver people do not trust us. what if we set targets we cannot deliver people do not trust us.— if we set targets we cannot deliver people do not trust us. what is the most conservative _ people do not trust us. what is the most conservative think _ people do not trust us. what is the most conservative think about - people do not trust us. what is the | most conservative think about you? personal responsibility, the value that distinguishes us by up —— from other parties and we do not have enough of it in the country at the moment. ., ~ , ., what do you think? let us know, email us at kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk or on social use the hashtag bbclaurak and we'll try and share some of of the converation later in the show.

the headlines are on the bbc live page as it unfolds, the address is there for you now. let's go to our panel. penny mordaunt, you have run to be tory leader and you know what it is like to sit and be put through your paces. it is interesting and notable both of the frontrunners focusing on immigration, what did you think of what you heard?— what you heard? irritating for you, i am supporting — what you heard? irritating for you, i am supporting all _ what you heard? irritating for you, i am supporting all four— what you heard? irritating for you, i i am supporting all four candidates this week. it takes courage to do what they are doing, i have been there and i want them all to have a good we can make us proud. share there and i want them all to have a good we can make us proud. are you comfortable — good we can make us proud. are you comfortable with _ good we can make us proud. are you comfortable with the _ good we can make us proud. are you comfortable with the kind _ good we can make us proud. are you comfortable with the kind of- good we can make us proud. are you comfortable with the kind of thing i comfortable with the kind of thing that both of them are saying, particular what kemi badenoch are saying about cultures being less valid than each other? do you think some cultures are less valid than each other?— some cultures are less valid than each other? , ~ , ., ., each other? this week is not about me but all of— each other? this week is not about me but all of us _ each other? this week is not about me but all of us has _ each other? this week is not about me but all of us has a _ each other? this week is not about me but all of us has a party. - each other? this week is not about me but all of us has a party. i - me but all of us has a party. i think the most important thing... the good that news is, across the country, conservative values are alive and well but we have to reconnect our party with them. they

are the values of this country. that is more important than particular personality or policies at this stage. personality or policies at this sta . e. �* personality or policies at this stare. �* ,., ., personality or policies at this stare. �* ., personality or policies at this stare.�* ., ., , stage. but some of your colleagues, theresa may — stage. but some of your colleagues, theresa may wrote _ stage. but some of your colleagues, theresa may wrote an _ stage. but some of your colleagues, theresa may wrote an article - theresa may wrote an article yesterday saying she is concerned about the party going to the right. there was an implicit criticism in their on kemi badenoch and robert jenrick, both trying to appeal to reform voters. are you can set the party might move to the right? i think that policy and personality is not the most important thing right now. there is less than 2% of this country who are a member of the political party. people do not view their life through that prism. what we have to do is demonstrate that we are back in the service of the people of this country. that to me is the most important thing, beyond any policy position. but is the most important thing, beyond any policy position-— any policy position. but how do you do that? i any policy position. but how do you do that? i will— any policy position. but how do you do that? i will be _ any policy position. but how do you do that? i will be talking _ any policy position. but how do you do that? i will be talking about - that later on today. the party chairman recognises this, i think, and he has asked me and lord howe men to do a piece of work to help us

reconnect with the nation. 50 men to do a piece of work to help us reconnect with the nation.— reconnect with the nation. so more on that later- _ reconnect with the nation. so more on that later. why _ reconnect with the nation. so more on that later. why do _ reconnect with the nation. so more on that later. why do you - reconnect with the nation. so more on that later. why do you think - reconnect with the nation. so more on that later. why do you think you lost? i know you don't want to get personal but why do you think you lost? you had a very marginal seat, you thought it very hard, what went wrong for you?— wrong for you? because i think that our values as _ wrong for you? because i think that our values as a _ wrong for you? because i think that our values as a party _ wrong for you? because i think that our values as a party and _ wrong for you? because i think that our values as a party and our- our values as a party and our success as a party has been because they have been in tune with the people of this country. for all sorts of reasons and all sorts of things that we did, including things during the election campaign, people did not see that any more. what did not see that any more. what about the d-day _ did not see that any more. what about the d-day visit _ did not see that any more. what about the d-day visit that - did not see that any more. what about the d—day visit that went so badly for the former prime minister, a proud military community in your old constituency?— old constituency? that's a great examle old constituency? that's a great example of— old constituency? that's a great example of what _ old constituency? that's a great example of what i _ old constituency? that's a great example of what i am _ old constituency? that's a great example of what i am talking i old constituency? that's a great - example of what i am talking about. the good news for us is those same values the british public idea now are causing them to rather iffy about their new prime minister. there is an opportunity there but we cannot be complacent. we have to demonstrate that we are here in the service of the nation and they are

our only care. service of the nation and they are our only care-— service of the nation and they are our onl care. ~ ., ., ~ ., ., our only care. what you make of what the candidates _ our only care. what you make of what the candidates had _ our only care. what you make of what the candidates had to _ our only care. what you make of what the candidates had to say, _ our only care. what you make of what the candidates had to say, jake? - our only care. what you make of what the candidates had to say, jake? i - the candidates had to say, jake? i thought it was an excellent outing for both_ thought it was an excellent outing for both of them but i think what we learn from both of them is they are really— learn from both of them is they are really talking about a battle for ideology, which direction is the conservative party going to go? now is probably— conservative party going to go? now is probably the right time to have it. is probably the right time to have it but _ is probably the right time to have it but if— is probably the right time to have it. but if we want to win the next general— it. but if we want to win the next general election, we have to start talking _ general election, we have to start talking about everything else. what other hospitals going to be like? what _ other hospitals going to be like? what is — other hospitals going to be like? what is the school your kid attend is going _ what is the school your kid attend is going to — what is the school your kid attend is going to be like? it is only when we have _ is going to be like? it is only when we have won people's trust back to represent — we have won people's trust back to represent them rather than a pressure _ represent them rather than a pressure group on immigration or culture, _ pressure group on immigration or culture, that we will stand a chance of heating _ culture, that we will stand a chance of beating this labour government and that_ of beating this labour government and that really matters because what we have _ and that really matters because what we have seen from the labour party so far— we have seen from the labour party so far as _ we have seen from the labour party so far as they have spent 14 years preparing — so far as they have spent 14 years preparing to come into government and they— preparing to come into government and they didn't really have a plan when _ and they didn't really have a plan when they— and they didn't really have a plan when they came in. that is why opposition— when they came in. that is why opposition and who is the leader of the opposition is really, really important when we have some of this fighting _ important when we have some of this fighting for— important when we have some of this fighting for the values that penny and i_ fighting for the values that penny and i hold — fighting for the values that penny and i hold dear, the core conservative values of common sense,

personal— conservative values of common sense, personal responsibility, lower taxation _ personal responsibility, lower taxation. do personal responsibility, lower taxation. ~ , ., taxation. do you think there is a risk of that? _ taxation. do you think there is a risk of that? you _ taxation. do you think there is a risk of that? you hinted - taxation. do you think there is a risk of that? you hinted there i taxation. do you think there is a risk of that? you hinted there isi risk of that? you hinted there is a risk of that? you hinted there is a risk you become a pressure group on immigration? i risk you become a pressure group on immigration?— risk you become a pressure group on immigration? i thought both of them erformed immigration? i thought both of them performed excellently. _ immigration? i thought both of them performed excellently. i _ immigration? i thought both of them performed excellently. i am - immigration? i thought both of them performed excellently. i am sure - performed excellently. i am sure both would be great leaders of the conservative party foster what they are doing _ conservative party foster what they are doing is setting out to the conservative party membership what they think— conservative party membership what they think is appealing to them. i am out _ they think is appealing to them. i am out there, i am backing tom tugendhat — am out there, i am backing tom tugendhat because i think him and james _ tugendhat because i think him and james cleverly as well have set out a much _ james cleverly as well have set out a much broader set of policies designed _ a much broader set of policies designed to appeal to conservative party members. as designed to appeal to conservative party members. 335 a designed to appeal to conservative party members-— designed to appeal to conservative party members. designed to appeal to conservative pa members. ., , ':: party members. as a former number 10 insider ou party members. as a former number 10 insider you worked _ party members. as a former number 10 insider you worked for _ party members. as a former number 10 insider you worked for three _ insider you worked for three different prime ministers so you don't have specific skin in this game, tom, but as someone who now works in higher education but used to be a diplomat going around the world promoting britain' image and working with governments everywhere, what you make of the pickle the conservatives have got themselves into? $5 conservatives have got themselves into? �* , conservatives have got themselves into? m conservatives have got themselves into? a ., conservatives have got themselves into? m . . conservatives have got themselves into? a ., ., ,., ., into? as you say, i am a diplomat and a former— into? as you say, i am a diplomat and a former civil _ into? as you say, i am a diplomat and a former civil servant - into? as you say, i am a diplomat and a former civil servant so - into? as you say, i am a diplomat and a former civil servant so i - and a former civil servant so i am more _ and a former civil servant so i am more used — and a former civil servant so i am more used to— and a former civil servant so i am more used to commenting - and a former civil servant so i am more used to commenting on- and a former civil servant so i am i more used to commenting on other people' _ more used to commenting on other people' elections _ more used to commenting on other people' elections rather— more used to commenting on other

people' elections rather than - more used to commenting on other people' elections rather than our. people' elections rather than our own _ people' elections rather than our own the — people' elections rather than our own. the world _ people' elections rather than our own. the world has _ people' elections rather than our own. the world has been- people' elections rather than our. own. the world has been watching people' elections rather than our- own. the world has been watching the uk in _ own. the world has been watching the uk in the _ own. the world has been watching the uk in the last— own. the world has been watching the uk in the last decade _ own. the world has been watching the uk in the last decade and _ own. the world has been watching the uk in the last decade and worries - own. the world has been watching the uk in the last decade and worries at i uk in the last decade and worries at times— uk in the last decade and worries at times it _ uk in the last decade and worries at times it has — uk in the last decade and worries at times it has lost _ uk in the last decade and worries at times it has lost our— uk in the last decade and worries at times it has lost our reputation - uk in the last decade and worries at times it has lost our reputation for. times it has lost our reputation for competence — times it has lost our reputation for competence the _ times it has lost our reputation for competence. the world _ times it has lost our reputation for competence. the world thinks - times it has lost our reputation for competence. the world thinks we i times it has lost our reputation for. competence. the world thinks we are quite good _ competence. the world thinks we are quite good at — competence. the world thinks we are quite good at banking _ competence. the world thinks we are quite good at banking and _ competence. the world thinks we are quite good at banking and politics - quite good at banking and politics and diplomacy— quite good at banking and politics and diplomacy and _ quite good at banking and politics and diplomacy and the _ quite good at banking and politics and diplomacy and the creative i and diplomacy and the creative industries _ and diplomacy and the creative industries and _ and diplomacy and the creative industries and at _ and diplomacy and the creative industries and at moments - and diplomacy and the creative industries and at moments iti and diplomacy and the creative - industries and at moments it seems wobbly— industries and at moments it seems wobbly on— industries and at moments it seems wobbly on those _ industries and at moments it seems wobbly on those. i _ industries and at moments it seems wobbly on those. i saw _ industries and at moments it seems wobbly on those. i saw a _ industries and at moments it seems wobbly on those. i saw a number i industries and at moments it seemsl wobbly on those. i saw a number 10, it is getting _ wobbly on those. i saw a number 10, it is getting harder— wobbly on those. i saw a number 10, it is getting harder and _ wobbly on those. i saw a number 10, it is getting harder and harder- wobbly on those. i saw a number 10, it is getting harder and harder to- it is getting harder and harder to govern — it is getting harder and harder to govern it — it is getting harder and harder to govern it is— it is getting harder and harder to govern. it is not _ it is getting harder and harder to govern. it is not a _ it is getting harder and harder to govern. it is not a political- it is getting harder and harder to govern. it is not a political point| govern. it is not a political point about— govern. it is not a political point about one — govern. it is not a political point about one party— govern. it is not a political point about one party or— govern. it is not a political point about one party or the - govern. it is not a political point about one party or the other. it| govern. it is not a political point. about one party or the other. it is harder— about one party or the other. it is harder for— about one party or the other. it is harder for liberal— about one party or the other. it is harder for liberal democracies - about one party or the other. it is harder for liberal democracies tol about one party or the other. it is. harder for liberal democracies to be strategic, _ harder for liberal democracies to be strategic, we — harder for liberal democracies to be strategic, we are _ harder for liberal democracies to be strategic, we are often— harder for liberal democracies to be strategic, we are often being - harder for liberal democracies to be strategic, we are often being out i strategic, we are often being out thought— strategic, we are often being out thought by— strategic, we are often being out thought by autocracies _ strategic, we are often being out thought by autocracies who - strategic, we are often being out thought by autocracies who are i strategic, we are often being out - thought by autocracies who are there for much _ thought by autocracies who are there for much longer _ thought by autocracies who are there for much longer time _ thought by autocracies who are there for much longer time and _ thought by autocracies who are there for much longer time and the - thought by autocracies who are there for much longer time and the world i for much longer time and the world is getting _ for much longer time and the world is getting tougher. _ for much longer time and the world is getting tougher. it _ for much longer time and the world is getting tougher. it is— for much longer time and the world is getting tougher. it is a _ is getting tougher. it is a driverless_ is getting tougher. it is a driverless world - is getting tougher. it is a driverless world out - is getting tougher. it is al driverless world out there is getting tougher. it is a - driverless world out there and is getting tougher. it is a _ driverless world out there and what i observe _ driverless world out there and what i observe in — driverless world out there and what i observe in so _ driverless world out there and what i observe in so many— driverless world out there and what i observe in so many elections, - driverless world out there and what i observe in so many elections, sol i observe in so many elections, so many— i observe in so many elections, so many campaigns. _ i observe in so many elections, so many campaigns, countries - i observe in so many elections, so many campaigns, countries like i many campaigns, countries like lebanon — many campaigns, countries like lebanon where _ many campaigns, countries like lebanon where 19 _ many campaigns, countries like lebanon where 19 do _ many campaigns, countries like lebanon where 19 do different i lebanon where 19 do different religions— lebanon where 19 do different religions are _ lebanon where 19 do different religions are coexisting, - lebanon where 19 do different religions are coexisting, is - lebanon where 19 do differenti religions are coexisting, is the great — religions are coexisting, is the great dividing _ religions are coexisting, is the great dividing line _ religions are coexisting, is the great dividing line now- religions are coexisting, is the great dividing line now is - religions are coexisting, is the i great dividing line now is people who believe _ great dividing line now is people who believe the _ great dividing line now is people who believe the answer- great dividing line now is people who believe the answer to - great dividing line now is peoplei who believe the answer to these challenges — who believe the answer to these challenges we _ who believe the answer to these challenges we face _ who believe the answer to these challenges we face is _ who believe the answer to these challenges we face is to - who believe the answer to these challenges we face is to build i who believe the answer to these challenges we face is to build a. challenges we face is to build a bigger— challenges we face is to build a bigger wall— challenges we face is to build a bigger wall and _ challenges we face is to build a bigger wall and people - challenges we face is to build a bigger wall and people who - challenges we face is to build a - bigger wall and people who believe in coexistence. _ bigger wall and people who believe in coexistence. as _ bigger wall and people who believe in coexistence. as a _ bigger wall and people who believe in coexistence. as a diplomat, - bigger wall and people who believe in coexistence. as a diplomat, i- in coexistence. as a diplomat, i believe — in coexistence. as a diplomat, i believe we _ in coexistence. as a diplomat, i believe we should _ in coexistence. as a diplomat, i believe we should find - in coexistence. as a diplomat, i believe we should find ways - in coexistence. as a diplomat, i believe we should find ways to. in coexistence. as a diplomat, i. believe we should find ways to live together~ — believe we should find ways to live together~ that— believe we should find ways to live together. that we _ believe we should find ways to live together. that we have _ believe we should find ways to live together. that we have more - believe we should find ways to live together. that we have more in i together. that we have more in common— together. that we have more in common than— together. that we have more in common than what _ together. that we have more in common than what divides - together. that we have more in common than what divides us. i together. that we have more in common than what divides us. penny, talkin: common than what divides us. penny, talking privately _ common than what divides us. penny, talking privately to _ common than what divides us. penny, talking privately to a _ common than what divides us. penny, talking privately to a lot _ common than what divides us. penny, talking privately to a lot of _ common than what divides us. penny, talking privately to a lot of your - talking privately to a lot of your colleagues in recent days, what

ilott had said to me as i don't think any of the four are likely to be the next conservative prime minister. one sourcejoked be the next conservative prime minister. one source joked the next tory prime minister might still be at school. are you confident that one of the four actually has what it takes to make it to number 10? i think so. i think we have four great candidates but this is about all of us. we all have to take responsibility for the shape of our party, our messages and the work that we do in our communities. if we are going to reconnect to the nation than the grassroots of this party are going to be absolutely vital in that. it are going to be absolutely vital in that. ,., , are going to be absolutely vital in that. , ., ~' are going to be absolutely vital in that. , ., ~ i. are going to be absolutely vital in that. , ., ~ ., that. it sounds to me like you are not at all done _ that. it sounds to me like you are not at all done in _ that. it sounds to me like you are not at all done in politics? - that. it sounds to me like you are not at all done in politics? i - that. it sounds to me like you are not at all done in politics? i am i not at all done in politics? i am here, i not at all done in politics? i am here. i am _ not at all done in politics? i am here. i am on _ not at all done in politics? i am here, i am on your _ not at all done in politics? i am here, i am on your panel! - not at all done in politics? i am| here, i am on your panel! might not at all done in politics? i am - here, i am on your panel! might we see another— here, i am on your panel! might we see another time, _ here, i am on your panel! might we see another time, fancy _ here, i am on your panel! might we see another time, fancy a - here, i am on your panel! might we see another time, fancy a seat - here, i am on your panel! might we see another time, fancy a seat at i see another time, fancy a seat at another time?— see another time, fancy a seat at another time? ., ., �* , another time? you don't need letters after our another time? you don't need letters after your name _ another time? you don't need letters after your name to _ another time? you don't need letters after your name to be _ another time? you don't need letters after your name to be of _ another time? you don't need letters after your name to be of service - another time? you don't need letters after your name to be of service to i after your name to be of service to your country. d0 after your name to be of service to your country-— your country. do you fancy coming back to the _ your country. do you fancy coming back to the green _ your country. do you fancy coming back to the green benches - your country. do you fancy coming back to the green benches one - your country. do you fancy coming i back to the green benches one day? of course i loved my time there but when hakuba, the committee, lift its

ban on ministerialjobs, i will announce what i'm going to do but it will be holy and the service of this country. will be holy and the service of this count . ~ ., ., will be holy and the service of this count . ~' ., ., ,, country. ok. i know also you have been spending — country. ok. i know also you have been spending a _ country. ok. i know also you have been spending a lot _ country. ok. i know also you have been spending a lot of— country. ok. i know also you have been spending a lot of in - country. ok. i know also you have been spending a lot of in america | been spending a lot of in america and ukraine and the new government i think has found huge amounts of time have to be devoted to foreign affairs in ways they may not have anticipated. let's return to lebanon and the complexities of what has gone on there. if we go back this time last week, david lammy, keir starmer off to new york. they thought they were going to be able or at least there was a chance of brokering a ceasefire. the last time we spoke to david lammy he said there was a 90% chance of a ceasefire at the other end of all of this but the situation becomes worse and worse. what has gone wrong in these last few days? it is and worse. what has gone wrong in these last few days?— these last few days? it is very, very tough- as _ these last few days? it is very, very tough. as you _ these last few days? it is very, very tough. as you say, - these last few days? it is very, very tough. as you say, the - these last few days? it is very, i very tough. as you say, the world comes— very tough. as you say, the world comes at— very tough. as you say, the world comes at you _ very tough. as you say, the world comes at you fast _ very tough. as you say, the world comes at you fast when _ very tough. as you say, the world comes at you fast when you - very tough. as you say, the world comes at you fast when you enter number— comes at you fast when you enter number 10 — comes at you fast when you enter number 10 i— comes at you fast when you enter number10. ithink— comes at you fast when you enter number 10. i think keir— comes at you fast when you enter number 10. i think keir starmer. comes at you fast when you enter. number 10. i think keir starmer had the busiest — number 10. i think keir starmer had the busiest first _ number 10. i think keir starmer had the busiest first month _ number 10. i think keir starmer had the busiest first month of _ number 10. i think keir starmer had the busiest first month of any - number 10. i think keir starmer had the busiest first month of any prime minister— the busiest first month of any prime minister on — the busiest first month of any prime minister on foreign _ the busiest first month of any prime minister on foreign policy _ the busiest first month of any prime minister on foreign policy since - the busiest first month of any prime minister on foreign policy since the i minister on foreign policy since the second _ minister on foreign policy since the second world — minister on foreign policy since the second world war. _

minister on foreign policy since the second world war. there - minister on foreign policy since the second world war. there was - minister on foreign policy since the | second world war. there was loads minister on foreign policy since the i second world war. there was loads of confidence _ second world war. there was loads of confidence i— second world war. there was loads of confidence. i talked _ second world war. there was loads of confidence. i talked to _ second world war. there was loads of confidence. i talked to a _ second world war. there was loads of confidence. i talked to a lot _ second world war. there was loads of confidence. i talked to a lot of- confidence. i talked to a lot of diplomats, _ confidence. i talked to a lot of diplomats, uk, _ confidence. i talked to a lot of diplomats, uk, american, - confidence. i talked to a lot of- diplomats, uk, american, french, regional— diplomats, uk, american, french, regional diplomats _ diplomats, uk, american, french, regional diplomats who— diplomats, uk, american, french, regional diplomats who were - diplomats, uk, american, french, regional diplomats who were in . diplomats, uk, american, french, i regional diplomats who were in new york this _ regional diplomats who were in new york this week— regional diplomats who were in new york this week and _ regional diplomats who were in new york this week and wednesday- regional diplomats who were in new. york this week and wednesday night, thursday— york this week and wednesday night, thursday morning, _ york this week and wednesday night, thursday morning, they— york this week and wednesday night, thursday morning, they felt - york this week and wednesday night, thursday morning, they felt they - york this week and wednesday night, thursday morning, they felt they had | thursday morning, they felt they had -ot thursday morning, they felt they had got this— thursday morning, they felt they had got this window— thursday morning, they felt they had got this window for— thursday morning, they felt they had got this window for a _ thursday morning, they felt they had got this window for a 21 _ thursday morning, they felt they had got this window for a 21 day - got this window for a 21 day ceasefire _ got this window for a 21 day ceasefire. the _ got this window for a 21 day ceasefire. the americans i got this window for a 21 day i ceasefire. the americans had got this window for a 21 day - ceasefire. the americans had cleared that of— ceasefire. the americans had cleared that of course — ceasefire. the americans had cleared that of course with _ ceasefire. the americans had cleared that of course with the _ ceasefire. the americans had cleared that of course with the israelis - ceasefire. the americans had cleared that of course with the israelis as - that of course with the israelis as welt _ that of course with the israelis as welt and — that of course with the israelis as welt and then— that of course with the israelis as well. and then prime _ that of course with the israelis as well. and then prime minister. well. and then prime minister netanyahu _ well. and then prime minister netanyahu shook— well. and then prime minister netanyahu shook his - well. and then prime minister netanyahu shook his fist - well. and then prime minister netanyahu shook his fist from well. and then prime minister- netanyahu shook his fist from the podium _ netanyahu shook his fist from the podium and — netanyahu shook his fist from the podium and said _ netanyahu shook his fist from the podium and said we _ netanyahu shook his fist from the podium and said we will— netanyahu shook his fist from the podium and said we will take - netanyahu shook his fist from the podium and said we will take it i netanyahu shook his fist from the j podium and said we will take it up another— podium and said we will take it up another level. _ podium and said we will take it up another level. so _ podium and said we will take it up another level. so i _ podium and said we will take it up another level. so i think— podium and said we will take it upl another level. so i think diplomats feel quite — another level. so i think diplomats feel quite despondent _ another level. so i think diplomats feel quite despondent at _ another level. so i think diplomats feel quite despondent at this - feel quite despondent at this moment _ feel quite despondent at this moment but _ feel quite despondent at this moment. but george - feel quite despondent at thisl moment. but george mitchell feel quite despondent at this - moment. but george mitchell said deployments — moment. but george mitchell said deployments are _ moment. but george mitchell said deployments are days _ moment. but george mitchell said deployments are days and - moment. but george mitchell said deployments are days and days . moment. but george mitchell said deployments are days and days of| deployments are days and days of failure _ deployments are days and days of failure and — deployments are days and days of failure and one _ deployments are days and days of failure and one of— deployments are days and days of failure and one of success - deployments are days and days of failure and one of success was - deployments are days and days ofl failure and one of success was that we have _ failure and one of success was that we have to — failure and one of success was that we have to get _ failure and one of success was that we have to get in _ failure and one of success was that we have to get in there _ failure and one of success was that we have to get in there and - failure and one of success was that we have to get in there and createl we have to get in there and create the conditions _ we have to get in there and create the conditions for— we have to get in there and create the conditions for that _ we have to get in there and create the conditions for that ceasefire. i the conditions for that ceasefire. you talked — the conditions for that ceasefire. you talked about _ the conditions for that ceasefire. you talked about netanyahu, - the conditions for that ceasefire. | you talked about netanyahu, the israeli leader. for months and months and months western countries have been urging restraint in gazza. for many months, western countries have been working hard to try and stop things getting worse in the northern part of things, why did people think he would listen this time, was there naivety? you people think he would listen this time, was there naivety? you have to keep trying- — time, was there naivety? you have to keep trying- what _ time, was there naivety? you have to keep trying. what other _ time, was there naivety? you have to keep trying. what other choice - time, was there naivety? you have to keep trying. what other choice do - time, was there naivety? you have to keep trying. what other choice do we | keep trying. what other choice do we have at— keep trying. what other choice do we have at the moment _ keep trying. what other choice do we have at the moment question - keep trying. what other choice do we have at the moment question that i

keep trying. what other choice do we| have at the moment question that you have at the moment question that you have to _ have at the moment question that you have to think— have at the moment question that you have to think about _ have at the moment question that you have to think about how— have at the moment question that you have to think about how we _ have at the moment question that you have to think about how we frame - have at the moment question that you have to think about how we frame the| have to think about how we frame the argument _ have to think about how we frame the argument and — have to think about how we frame the argument and i— have to think about how we frame the argument and i think— have to think about how we frame the argument and i think the _ have to think about how we frame the argument and i think the argument. have to think about how we frame the argument and i think the argument to take to _ argument and i think the argument to take to the _ argument and i think the argument to take to the hardliners _ argument and i think the argument to take to the hardliners in _ argument and i think the argument to take to the hardliners in israel- argument and i think the argument to take to the hardliners in israel for- take to the hardliners in israel for example — take to the hardliners in israel for example is— take to the hardliners in israel for example is to _ take to the hardliners in israel for example is to say _ take to the hardliners in israel for example is to say a _ take to the hardliners in israel for example is to say a ground - take to the hardliners in israel for. example is to say a ground invasion well embolden _ example is to say a ground invasion well embolden hezbollah _ example is to say a ground invasion well embolden hezbollah again, - example is to say a ground invasion well embolden hezbollah again, it i well embolden hezbollah again, it will give _ well embolden hezbollah again, it will give them _ well embolden hezbollah again, it will give them back— well embolden hezbollah again, it will give them back the _ well embolden hezbollah again, it will give them back the popularity| will give them back the popularity and legitimacy— will give them back the popularity and legitimacy which _ will give them back the popularity and legitimacy which has - will give them back the popularity and legitimacy which has drained i and legitimacy which has drained away— and legitimacy which has drained away from — and legitimacy which has drained away from them _ and legitimacy which has drained away from them in _ and legitimacy which has drained away from them in recent - and legitimacy which has drained away from them in recent years. | and legitimacy which has drained - away from them in recent years. and to say— away from them in recent years. and to say to _ away from them in recent years. and to say to the — away from them in recent years. and to say to the iranians _ away from them in recent years. and to say to the iranians it _ away from them in recent years. and to say to the iranians it is— away from them in recent years. and to say to the iranians it is not- away from them in recent years. and to say to the iranians it is not in- to say to the iranians it is not in your— to say to the iranians it is not in your interest _ to say to the iranians it is not in your interest for— to say to the iranians it is not in your interest for this _ to say to the iranians it is not in your interest for this to - to say to the iranians it is not in. your interest for this to escalate, don't _ your interest for this to escalate, don't dial— your interest for this to escalate, don't dial up _ your interest for this to escalate, don't dial up the _ your interest for this to escalate, don't dial up the violence - your interest for this to escalate, don't dial up the violence acrossl don't dial up the violence across the regions _ don't dial up the violence across the regions through _ don't dial up the violence across the regions through their - don't dial up the violence acrossl the regions through their militias and who— the regions through their militias and who fees— the regions through their militias and who fees and _ the regions through their militias and who fees and hezbollah - the regions through their militias. and who fees and hezbollah itself. the diplomats _ and who fees and hezbollah itself. the diplomats have _ and who fees and hezbollah itself. the diplomats have to _ and who fees and hezbollah itself. the diplomats have to keep - and who fees and hezbollah itself. the diplomats have to keep goingl the diplomats have to keep going because _ the diplomats have to keep going because actually, _ the diplomats have to keep going because actually, the _ the diplomats have to keep going because actually, the route - the diplomats have to keep going because actually, the route to - because actually, the route to calming — because actually, the route to calming down— because actually, the route to calming down the _ because actually, the route to calming down the whole - because actually, the route toi calming down the whole region because actually, the route to - calming down the whole region does lie in the _ calming down the whole region does lie in the gaza — calming down the whole region does lie in the gaza ceasefire _ calming down the whole region does lie in the gaza ceasefire and - lie in the gaza ceasefire and ultimately _ lie in the gaza ceasefire and ultimately in _ lie in the gaza ceasefire and ultimately in the _ lie in the gaza ceasefire and ultimately in the two - lie in the gaza ceasefire and ultimately in the two state i ultimately in the two state solution _ ultimately in the two state solution. you _ ultimately in the two state solution. you have - ultimately in the two state solution. you have to - ultimately in the two state solution. you have to findl ultimately in the two state - solution. you have to find security, justice. _ solution. you have to find security, justice, opportunity— solution. you have to find security, justice, opportunity for— solution. you have to find security, justice, opportunity for israelis, - justice, opportunity for israelis, palestinians— justice, opportunity for israelis, palestinians and _ justice, opportunity for israelis, palestinians and lebanese. - justice, opportunity for israelis, palestinians and lebanese. jake, do ou think palestinians and lebanese. jake, do you think foreign _ palestinians and lebanese. jake, do you think foreign policy _ palestinians and lebanese. jake, do you think foreign policy will - palestinians and lebanese. jake, do you think foreign policy will be - palestinians and lebanese. jake, do you think foreign policy will be the l you think foreign policy will be the future of this week? such a sensitive and difficult issue but do you think it will be part of the debate around who is next tory leader? �* , , ., leader? i'm sure it will be. you have to come _ leader? i'm sure it will be. you have to come together- leader? i'm sure it will be. you have to come together as - leader? i'm sure it will be. you have to come together as a - leader? i'm sure it will be. you i have to come together as a party leader? i'm sure it will be. you - have to come together as a party and look like _ have to come together as a party and look like as— have to come together as a party and look like as the official opposition or potentially a government in

waiting, — or potentially a government in waiting, it would be absolutely bizarre — waiting, it would be absolutely bizarre if— waiting, it would be absolutely bizarre if the conservative party and these — bizarre if the conservative party and these leadership hopefuls didn't talk about this hugely, hugely important issue. i thinkjust going back to _ important issue. i thinkjust going back to the — important issue. i thinkjust going back to the americans and hope for a ceasefire. _ back to the americans and hope for a ceasefire, my reading of it was that the americans really started to push this idea, _ the americans really started to push this idea, as did our government and the foreign— this idea, as did our government and the foreign secretary david lammy, because _ the foreign secretary david lammy, because it _ the foreign secretary david lammy, because it was the israelis themselves who started to push theirs _ themselves who started to push theirs as— themselves who started to push theirs as an option. we then saw a significant — theirs as an option. we then saw a significant escalation with the israelis — significant escalation with the israelis in defence of themselves attacking — israelis in defence of themselves attacking lebanon. ithink israelis in defence of themselves attacking lebanon. i think really it is attacking lebanon. i think really it is linked _ attacking lebanon. i think really it is linked to— attacking lebanon. i think really it is linked to the fact is an american election— is linked to the fact is an american election year that i think netanyahu and the _ election year that i think netanyahu and the israeli government are working — and the israeli government are working with the belief that no american president in an election year are — american president in an election year are going to turn their back on the israelis — year are going to turn their back on the israelis. they are the longest and strongest allies. i don't think we're _ and strongest allies. i don't think we're going to see a ceasefire. i hope _ we're going to see a ceasefire. i hope i'm — we're going to see a ceasefire. i hope i'm wrong but i don't think we will hope i'm wrong but i don't think we will see _ hope i'm wrong but i don't think we will see significant progress or a ceasefire — will see significant progress or a ceasefire until those american elections _ ceasefire until those american elections are done in november. just a reminder elections are done in november. a reminder of elections are done in november. jisi a reminder of how interconnected everything is. we will be back with

the three of you a little late in the three of you a little late in the programme. thank you for now. whether it's been winter fuel orfreebies, the government has not had the straightforward start that it had dreamt of. the criticism is not even been only from their rivals, but from one of their own — until late last night, that was rosie duffield who was the labour mp for canterbury. but she quit, blasting keir starmer for sleaze, avarice and lack of politicaljudgment. that is our number 10's door and they have to deal with the international crisis we have just been discussing. one of the most senior members of the cabinet, pat mcfadden, the cabinet office minister is with us. good morning. we'll speak to you in a second, but this is what a very angry rosie duffield told me last night. i'm ashamed of the fact that we stood up, rightly, and condemned all of the, you know, the last few years of tory — what we saw as tory sleaze — and all of the things that, you know, brought politics into disrepute.

and we've always held ourselves up as this, you know, a party that's better, that will do better, that will clear out the rot. and here we are and it's daily revelations of hypocrisy and grubby kind of presents and things. i mean, i can't believe what i'm reading, every single day. and, you know, all of us had donations for the election. i didn't like it, but i had to crowdfund, because i got no money at all from unions or the party this time. and you feel a bit grubby doing that, actually, if i'm honest with you. but i had some lovely friends and some generous donations myself, for leaflets and things. but when you've got people with so much more money than the average person spending somebody�*s yearly salary on their own clothes without feeling that they have to apologise or explain...

ijust feel like i'm not getting anywhere with trying to get that from my leader, and i needed to go. it feels... i mean, it's greed. why else would someone on so much more money than most people take free gifts? why? he can absolutely afford his own clothes. we all can. and i've seen journalists asking him and he hasn't answered, he hasn't actually explained. and he doesn't have separate meetings with backbench mps. so we're watching the telly the same as everyone else. and i haven't seen anything that explains why that's ok. and then to see us cutting the money to people who earn a fraction of what we do, ijust... it's mass hypocrisy. i can't be a part of that. but the relationship between you and the leadership has been strained for a long time. some people will think why now, so soon after the election? and what do you say to people who voted for you as a labour mp?

i'm desperately sorry. it is not at all where i wanted to be. i never thought in a million years i would leave this party. i'm trying not to get upset when i'm saying that, because it's in your soul, in your heart. and particularly someone like me, and particularly someone like me, i'm from a very different background i'm from a very different background to keir starmer, i think. to keir starmer, i think. and i was a single mum and i was a single mum who needed the labour party. who needed the labour party. and since we were last in power, and since we were last in power, all i've done is deliver those all i've done is deliver those leaflets myself and beg the public leaflets myself and beg the public to return a labour government. to return a labour government. and it'sjust so profoundly and it'sjust so profoundly disappointing to me as a labour disappointing to me as a labour voter and an activist, voter and an activist, and a former recipient of tax and a former recipient of tax credits in a low—paid job, credits in a low—paid job, to just see that this as the lads, you know. to just see that this is what we've become. is what we've become. and it's more about greed and it's more about greed and power than it is about and power than it is about making a difference. making a difference. and ijust, ijust — i can't take it and ijust, ijust — i can't take it any more, i'm afraid. any more, i'm afraid. do you think he has do you think he has a problem with women? a problem with women? i'm afraid i do, yes. i'm afraid i do, yes. i mean, i've experienced it myself, i mean, i've experienced it myself, but, er, most backbenchers that i'm but, er, most backbenchers that i'm friends with are women and most friends with are women and most of us refer to the men that of us refer to the men that surround him — the young men — surround him — the young men —

as the lads, you know. and it's very clear that the lads are in charge. they've now got their downing street passes. they're the same lads that were there briefing against me in the papers, and other prominent female mps. and, you know, i was really hoping for better, but it wasn't to be. rosie duffield, thank you. pat mcfadden listening to that in london with us. sleaze, avarice, greed, how do you respond? when i read rosie's — greed, how do you respond? when i read rosie's letter _ greed, how do you respond? when i read rosie's letter and _ greed, how do you respond? when i read rosie's letter and listening - greed, how do you respond? when i read rosie's letter and listening to i read rosie's letter and listening to the interview, i think you can see she has been disillusioned with the party leader, the party more generally for quite a long time. i do not think it is something that has developed in the past months. i am disappointed to see her go, i

like rosie. ultimately, iam not surprised at the decision she has made. she is clear what seems to have pushed her someone who has

get y. but this is someone who has been a long labour supporter who has donated to labour for many years, who has supported a number of labour politicians. that is what he did in this way in supporting the campaign. this has been declared and we will always try to declare things. that is important to do. i do not there is important to do. i do not there is any equivalence at all between that kind of campaign donation and some of the stuff that went on in recent years, losing billions in covid waste and fraud, parties against lockdown rules in no 10. they are not equivalent things. we take the rule seriously. ila they are not equivalent things. we take the rule seriously.— they are not equivalent things. we take the rule seriously. no one this mornin: is take the rule seriously. no one this morning is making _ take the rule seriously. no one this morning is making that _ take the rule seriously. no one this morning is making that link. - take the rule seriously. no one this morning is making that link. but i take the rule seriously. no one this. morning is making that link. but one of your own mps until late last night, and many others i have spoken to privately as rosie duffield said

there is widespread concern in your party about the perception created by the level of donations that have been accepted. do you understand some people in your party, and many viewers, look at this and think what on earth were they thinking? i think the equivalence _ on earth were they thinking? i think the equivalence i _ on earth were they thinking? i think the equivalence i referred _ on earth were they thinking? i think the equivalence i referred to - on earth were they thinking? i think the equivalence i referred to has . the equivalence i referred to has been drawn in recent weeks. these were campaign donations. let me be clear about what we will do on this. there has been an imbalance in the rules here between ministers and shadow ministers where ministers have not had to declare in the past hospitality they have received. while backbench mps and shadow ministers have. we will close that loophole. we will make it clear in the ministerial code both ministers and shadow ministers should be under the same declaration rules. so that everybody knows what is happening.

so you are acknowledging something has gone wrong because you are going to tighten up the rules. why has it taken so long? this to tighten up the rules. why has it taken so long?— taken so long? this is a tory loophole _ taken so long? this is a tory loophole brought _ taken so long? this is a tory loophole brought in - taken so long? this is a tory loophole brought in so - taken so long? this is a tory loophole brought in so you i taken so long? this is a tory i loophole brought in so you had taken so long? this is a tory - loophole brought in so you had an event where the tory minister as it was under the last government would be there. the shadow opposite number would be there. the tory minister would be there. the tory minister would not have to declare. that was the tory rules and we think it is not right and we will close the loophole and ensure ministers and shadow ministers are treated the same. ., ., , shadow ministers are treated the same, ., ., , . ., shadow ministers are treated the same. ., ., ,. ., ., same. how does changing that will make a difference _ same. how does changing that will make a difference to _ same. how does changing that will make a difference to the _ make a difference to the embarrassment that has driven many viewers around the twist and made rosie duffield unhappy? how many thousands of pounds you took in opposition, how much keir starmer spent on clothes, free tickets. i think you had free tickets to the brit awards. it might have been in the rules but people struggle with why you do not see it has made

people angry. why you do not see it has made people angry-— people angry. politicians get invited to — people angry. politicians get invited to things. _ people angry. politicians get invited to things. if - people angry. politicians get invited to things. if people i people angry. politicians get - invited to things. if people don't want politicians to go to anything, they can make that opinion clear. politicians get invited to things, sometimes they go, sometimes it might be relevant to their position, sometimes it might not. in most of this was campaign donations, presentation is part of a campaign. there is no policy quid pro quo, no public money involved. it was about the campaign. about labour putting its best foot forward in the campaign. now the campaign is over, we will ensure the ministerial code is clear so that ministers and shadow ministers operate under entirely the same rules.- entirely the same rules. rosie duffield said _ entirely the same rules. rosie duffield said last _ entirely the same rules. rosie duffield said last night - entirely the same rules. rosie duffield said last night that i entirely the same rules. rosie - duffield said last night that labour activists, mps, feel they are being laughed at because of the behaviour of keir starmer and the close team

around him. rosie duffield told us the lads are in charge. are you one of the lads? i the lads are in charge. are you one of the lads?— of the lads? i think! am a bit too old to be a _ of the lads? i think! am a bit too old to be a lad. _ of the lads? i think! am a bit too old to be a lad. some _ of the lads? i think! am a bit too old to be a lad. some of- of the lads? i think! am a bit too old to be a lad. some of the - of the lads? i think! am a bit too| old to be a lad. some of the stuff in the letter i do not accept. i see ministers turning up at work every day and what is on their mind is how to stabilise the economy and get it growing, how to turn around the nhs, to get more houses built, how to improve rights at work, how to get more opportunity into schools. that is what the ministers around the cabinet table are focused on. the?r cabinet table are focused on. they believe in public _ cabinet table are focused on. they believe in public service. are you saying there is no problem in no 10, because it is notjust rosie duffield's criticism. you and i know there have been plenty of people in there have been plenty of people in the party, privately and publicly, expressing concern about the operation of this government. keir

starmer�*s ratings have taken a big dive since he moved in. are you saying there is nothing up in downing street? i saying there is nothing up in downing street?— saying there is nothing up in downin: street? . ., , downing street? i am not denying i would rather _ downing street? i am not denying i would rather not _ downing street? i am not denying i would rather not have _ downing street? i am not denying i would rather not have seen - downing street? i am not denying i would rather not have seen some i downing street? i am not denying i | would rather not have seen some of the stories in the last couple of weeks but i have been around a long time. i am too old to be a lad, may be. when we came in in 97 there were also stories. talk of division between no 10 and 11 and stories about donations. there are schools at the moment but this government has a big agenda, we have announced a lot so far and there is plenty to come in the future. —— the there are squalls. come in the future. -- the there are su ualls. ., ., , ,., ~ come in the future. -- the there are suualls. ., ., , ., . squalls. now lebanon, we spoke to a british person — squalls. now lebanon, we spoke to a british person anxious _ squalls. now lebanon, we spoke to a british person anxious to _ squalls. now lebanon, we spoke to a british person anxious to get - squalls. now lebanon, we spoke to a british person anxious to get home. i british person anxious to get home. the advice is people should get commercialflights the advice is people should get commercial flights out as soon as they can put many flights are being cancelled. at what point will the

government step in and get british citizens who want to leave on to government chartered planes, perhaps military planes? this government chartered planes, perhaps military planes?— military planes? this is a very serious situation. _ military planes? this is a very serious situation. our- military planes? this is a very serious situation. our advice i military planes? this is a very i serious situation. our advice for some time to british citizens in lebanon is to leave now. there are commercialflights lebanon is to leave now. there are commercial flights available. the foreign office is working with commercial airlines to ensure more are available. we will plan for every contingency but it is important given the seriousness of the situation that british people in the situation that british people in the area make arrangements to leave now. there is a register, to make sure we know who is british and who is in the area. i encourage anyone in the area to use that register your presence service. it gives us the information to communicate with

british citizens in lebanon. the advice is to leave now but we are watching this closely. we will have contingency plans for any eventuality. on the broader question, it is important we try to resolve these differences in a diplomatic way no matter how difficult that sound is in the light of what has happened in the recent days. flat of what has happened in the recent da 5. . ~ . . of what has happened in the recent da s. . a ., ., ,, of what has happened in the recent das. . . of what has happened in the recent da 5. . a . . ., days. pat mcfadden, thank you. that forei . n days. pat mcfadden, thank you. that foreign office — days. pat mcfadden, thank you. that foreign office advice, _ days. pat mcfadden, thank you. that foreign office advice, more - foreign office advice, more information about that on the bbc website. who'd have thunk it? borisjohnson is making himself known at the tory conference. snippets of his book are about to land. we have his first interview on his time in office since he left is with us on thursday.

how do you think the party look at him now? i how do you think the party look at him now? ~ ,., ., ,, , ., him now? i think the book will be a aood him now? i think the book will be a good read- — him now? i think the book will be a good read- i— him now? i think the book will be a good read. i still— him now? i think the book will be a good read. i still think— him now? i think the book will be a good read. i still think the - good read. i still think the conservative party looks back at borisjohnson when he came in as leader is a time of great optimism. he won a significant majority in 2019 and i think is a very active member of the conservative family that he still is that people will be delighted to see him at conference. do you think you should come? i am sure his book— do you think you should come? i am sure his book is _ do you think you should come? i am sure his book is a _ do you think you should come? i am sure his book is a wholly accurate version _ sure his book is a wholly accurate version of— sure his book is a wholly accurate version of events. what pat mcfadden 'ust version of events. what pat mcfadden just said _ version of events. what pat mcfadden just said is _ version of events. what pat mcfadden just said is completely untrue. he clearly— just said is completely untrue. he clearly does not understand the ministerial code. the onus on ministers _ ministerial code. the onus on ministers is more stringent. in 12 weeks. _ ministers is more stringent. in 12 weeks. the — ministers is more stringent. in 12 weeks, the labour government has brought— weeks, the labour government has brought fear to the elderly and this

to the _ brought fear to the elderly and this to the office of downing street, a touch _ to the office of downing street, a touch of— to the office of downing street, a touch of the imelda marcus. where the tory party _ touch of the imelda marcus. where the tory party is — touch of the imelda marcus. where the tory party is now, _ touch of the imelda marcus. where the tory party is now, it _ touch of the imelda marcus. where the tory party is now, it was - touch of the imelda marcus. where the tory party is now, it was said i the tory party is now, it was said he laughed at you in cabinet when you raised trans rights. it is he laughed at you in cabinet when you raised trans rights.— you raised trans rights. it is about all of us in — you raised trans rights. it is about all of us in this _ you raised trans rights. it is about all of us in this party _ you raised trans rights. it is about all of us in this party and - you raised trans rights. it is about all of us in this party and i - you raised trans rights. it is about all of us in this party and i do - you raised trans rights. it is about all of us in this party and i do not| all of us in this party and i do not think— all of us in this party and i do not think any— all of us in this party and i do not think any of— all of us in this party and i do not think any of us should fuel divisions— think any of us should fuel divisions that characterised the last few— divisions that characterised the last few years. the country wants us to get _ last few years. the country wants us to get back — last few years. the country wants us to get back into the service of them and that— to get back into the service of them and that should be our focus. tom, when ou and that should be our focus. tom, when you look— and that should be our focus. tom, when you look at _ and that should be our focus. tom, when you look at the _ and that should be our focus. tom, when you look at the new - and that should be our focus. ’ifrr’n, when you look at the new government, and pat mcfadden acknowledging in his word there has been a squall. and saying they will change the ministerial rules, do you look at them as a government and think you are confident they know what they are confident they know what they are doing or do you have a question

mark? ,., , ., ., mark? government is tough. i have seen that close-up _ mark? government is tough. i have seen that close-up in _ mark? government is tough. i have seen that close-up in no _ mark? government is tough. i have seen that close-up in no 10. - mark? government is tough. i have seen that close-up in no 10. i - mark? government is tough. i have seen that close-up in no 10. i am i seen that close—up in no 10. i am not sure borisjohnson's book will not sure boris johnson's book will restore the reputation for competence. you get out and do things. prime ministers need to set a vision and communicated and put processes in place to deliver it and it is hard to get all three right. i have been to no 10 won since the election and i can see there are good people in there. i have worked with sue gray and she is a formidable operator and will get things done. on lebanon, i saw emma's interview, there is a great plan in place and a brilliant team and people should get in touch with the embassy and get on flights and get out. the embassy and get on flights and net out. ., , the embassy and get on flights and net out. . , ,., ., the embassy and get on flights and net out. . , ., ., . get out. that is important advice and we are _ get out. that is important advice and we are out _ get out. that is important advice and we are out of— get out. that is important advice and we are out of time _ get out. that is important advice and we are out of time and - get out. that is important advice and we are out of time and we i get out. that is important advice i and we are out of time and we did not get time to go through the merchandise the tory candidates are trying to tempt people with. a kemi badenoch baseball cap. and a foam

finger, when did that become a thing in politics, with tom tugendhat. you can argue about that amongst yourselves. thank you to all my guests. thank you most of all to you for watching. we had pat mcfadden said the government will change the rules on ministerial donations and we will see how the detail pans out. and now we have heard on the programme all four vying to be tory leader. they'll be pressing the flesh and on the platform in birmingham in the next few days. by by wednesday night, may be one of them will have the magic recipe to bring the party back from the brink. i'll be with paddy o'connell for sunday's newscast on bbc sounds later. don't miss our interveiw with the former prime minister, borisjohnson — his first on his time in office since his dramatic departure from downing street. that is on bbc one on thursday night. and, of course, i'll look forward to seeing you back in the studio next sunday,

same time, same place. live from london, this is bbc news. fears of an all—out war in the middle east after israel kills hezbollah leader, hassan nasrallah. the israel defense forces say they have carried out raids on 'dozens�* of hezbollah targets overnight. this is the scene live in beirut, where officials say 33 people were killed and more than 200 were injured in air

strikes on saturday. at westminster, labour mp rosie duffield quits the party, accusing the prime minister sir keir starmer of hypocrisy. the conservative leadership candidates are making their pitch for support at the party's annual conference. the polls have opened in austria's federal election which is expected to be a closely—fought race which could see the far—right freedom party win the most seats for the first time. we start with the ongoing tensions in the middle east, 24 hours since the announcement of the death of the hezbollah leader hassan nasrallah. fears remain that nasrallah's killing could spark an all—out regional war. srael�*s prime minister, benjamin netanyahu described

the attack as a 'historic turning point�*. he said israel had finally settled the score with a man