city 2—0 winners. the champions humbled, manchester city back in europe with a bang. elsewhere, there was a bruising night for arsenal in munich. having gone ahead in the first half, they collapsed after the break. a 13—minute hat trick from pernille harder saw them capitulate, succumbing to a 5—2 defeat. bayern brilliant. arsenal simply stunned. jo currie, bbc news. hurricane milton's storm surges and tornados begin. milton is described as the worst hurricane florida has seen in a century.

we'll ask why a political battle over the massive storm has started. and shock at westminster as james cleverly is knocked out of the tory leadership contest. kemi badenoch and robertjenrick are the final two. what does it tell us about the future direction of the conservative party? good evening. welcome to newsnight. in florida, time has run out for more than 5.5 million people who were ordered to leave their homes as hurricane milton closes in. as we go on air, the storm surges have already begun. these are the live pictures right now from fort myers, which is just south of tampa.

the hurricane due to hit the tampa bay area in the next six or seven hours. this is the centre of fort myers. a complete ghost town, as you can see. it's expected to be the worst storm in this part of the world in living memory, with vicious winds of up to 130mph and surges in sea levels of up to four metres, or up to 15 feet, high. and breaking tonight, just hours away from hurricane milton, the cat 5 storm of the century. you're going to ride the storm out in this boat right here? yeah. why? i because i have nowhere else to go. showing gma its hurricane simulator and what it can do to a home when it's dialled up to a cat 3. it has already started spawning a series of dangerous tornadoes touching down throughout south central florida. and watch this — this is how the weather channel is illustrating the potential impact of this storm.

at three feet above normally dry ground, water is already life threatening. it's too late to evacuate. water this high can knock you off yourfeet, make cars float and driving impossible. the first floor of homes and businesses are flooded. unfortunately, the water is expected to rise even higher at six feet, above the height of most people. vehicles get carried away, structures start to fail. just look at this. anything could be in this water. sharp glass, debris, chemicals as well. the scary part is some areas could see surge values at 10 to 15ft. and this takes us up to nine and look what it does at this level. the first floors of structures are completely flooded and there are few places that it is safe when the water rises this high. and there was this warning from the head of the us federal emergency management agency. you need to prepare for catastrophic impacts. this is going to be a serious storm, one that could forever change communities that

are still recovering from helene. we're going to talk now to a resident who hasn't left, the mayor of st petersburg, and the meterologist who went viral after breaking down in tears while reporting on the storm. hannah grainger, let's start with you. thanks forjoining us. i can see you are with your partner rob and your six—year—old boy robbie. thanks for joining us. why are you staying there? you are in an evacuation area. it there? you are in an evacuation area. , , ., ., , ., area. it is very important for us to stay home — area. it is very important for us to stay home and — area. it is very important for us to stay home and to _ area. it is very important for us to stay home and to be _ area. it is very important for us to stay home and to be able - area. it is very important for us to stay home and to be able to - area. it is very important for us to stay home and to be able to take | stay home and to be able to take care of our home. we decided we were going to leave if it was showing a direct hit this morning, and as of this morning, it shows that it is going to be south of us, and even with a nudge north it is still going

to go more to the south so it is more important to us to be able to protect our home. 50 more important to us to be able to protect our home.— more important to us to be able to protect our home. so at this stage, when it is due _ protect our home. so at this stage, when it is due to _ protect our home. so at this stage, when it is due to hit _ protect our home. so at this stage, when it is due to hit in _ protect our home. so at this stage, when it is due to hit in maybe - protect our home. so at this stage, when it is due to hit in maybe six, l when it is due to hit in maybe six, seven hours, how worried are you feeling? it seven hours, how worried are you feelin: ? ., ~ , seven hours, how worried are you feelin: ? . ~ , , seven hours, how worried are you feelin? . ~ , , ., , seven hours, how worried are you feelina? . ~ , , ., , ., feeling? it makes us a bit more nervous as _ feeling? it makes us a bit more nervous as it — feeling? it makes us a bit more nervous as it nudges _ feeling? it makes us a bit more nervous as it nudges to - feeling? it makes us a bit more nervous as it nudges to the - feeling? it makes us a bit more i nervous as it nudges to the north but we feel really safe and we have protected our home and rob has spent the last few days putting shutters on and we have generators, water, and enough food. we feel prepared. rob, how are you feeling about this? and your decision to stay? i am rob, how are you feeling about this? and your decision to stay?— and your decision to stay? i am a charter captain — and your decision to stay? i am a charter captain and _ and your decision to stay? i am a charter captain and i _ and your decision to stay? i am a charter captain and i have - and your decision to stay? i am a charter captain and i have been i and your decision to stay? i am a | charter captain and i have been in florida _ charter captain and i have been in florida since 1992, charter captain and i have been in florida since1992, and i have never evacuaieti — florida since1992, and i have never evacuaieti i— florida since1992, and i have never evacuated. i have been to every hurricane — evacuated. i have been to every hurricane since 1992 evacuated. i have been to every hurricane since1992 and i know how to prepare _ hurricane since1992 and i know how to prepare and i know how to survive so no _ to prepare and i know how to survive so no worries— to prepare and i know how to survive so no worries for me. that to prepare and i know how to survive so no worries for me.— so no worries for me. that is very aood to so no worries for me. that is very good to hear- _ so no worries for me. that is very good to hear. you _ so no worries for me. that is very

good to hear. you are _ so no worries for me. that is very good to hear. you are in - so no worries for me. that is very good to hear. you are in the - good to hear. you are in the evacuation zone, aren't you? we are riaht on evacuation zone, aren't you? we are right on the _ evacuation zone, aren't you? we are right on the edge — evacuation zone, aren't you? we are right on the edge and _ evacuation zone, aren't you? we are right on the edge and a _ evacuation zone, aren't you? we are right on the edge and a lot _ evacuation zone, aren't you? we are right on the edge and a lot of - evacuation zone, aren't you? we are right on the edge and a lot of our - right on the edge and a lot of our neighbours have evacuated and some of our— neighbours have evacuated and some of our neighbours have stayed. we 'ust of our neighbours have stayed. we just decided to stay. with even robbie's — just decided to stay. with even robbie's help, we have secured our home _ robbie's help, we have secured our home very— robbie's help, we have secured our home very strongly, it is like fort knox _ home very strongly, it is like fort knox here — home very strongly, it is like fort knox here-— home very strongly, it is like fort knox here. . ., ., , , ., knox here. fair enough. robbie, how have ou knox here. fair enough. robbie, how have you helped _ knox here. fair enough. robbie, how have you helped prepare _ knox here. fair enough. robbie, how have you helped prepare for- knox here. fair enough. robbie, how have you helped prepare for this? - have you helped prepare for this? i... i have been helping with the pumps — i... i have been helping with the pumps. he _ i... i have been helping with the um s, i... i have been helping with the --ums. a, i... i have been helping with the naums. , pumps. he said the bath playroom floods so he _ pumps. he said the bath playroom floods so he helps _ pumps. he said the bath playroom floods so he helps to _ pumps. he said the bath playroom floods so he helps to clear- pumps. he said the bath playroom floods so he helps to clear the - floods so he helps to clear the playroom and he has pumps that they set up in the back yard to help

clear the water.— set up in the back yard to help clear the water. understood. it sounds like _ clear the water. understood. it sounds like a _ clear the water. understood. it sounds like a real— clear the water. understood. it sounds like a real family - clear the water. understood. it sounds like a real family affair. thanks for talking to us. we're going to talk to the mayor of st petersburg now, ken welch. and have a look at this graphic which shows the trajectory of the hurricane in relation to st petersburg over the coming hours. mayor ken welch, thank you for your time. what is your advice to those who have not left or have not been able to leave? we have not left or have not been able to leave? ~ , , , to leave? we wish them the best. clearwater — to leave? we wish them the best. clearwater is a _ to leave? we wish them the best. clearwater is a sister— to leave? we wish them the best. clearwater is a sister city - to leave? we wish them the best. clearwater is a sister city about i to leave? we wish them the best. | clearwater is a sister city about 20 miles north of my city st petersburg, but throughout the county we have issued evacuation orders in levels a and b and c

because of the threat of a storm surge, we have asked people to either leave their city or their county or go tens of miles, not hundreds of miles, to a high safe ground and people have really responded to that. about a million people in the evacuation, those affected about 500,000 people, and most of the people that have heeded the warnings, we have had a very impactful hurricane hurricane helene that showed the power of even six feet of surgeon we are expected to have much more than that, plus hurricane force winds so it is a very dangerous time —— six feet of surge. we will not be sending out first responders to respond to emergency calls in these extremely strong winds. 50 emergency calls in these extremely strong winds-— strong winds. so it is the destructive _ strong winds. so it is the destructive winds - strong winds. so it is the destructive winds and . strong winds. so it is the | destructive winds and the strong winds. so it is the - destructive winds and the levels of sea water, how bad could it be? it

is the combination of the two and we don't know exactly where the storm will make landfall and that is what makes it so dangerous in terms of what the storm surge might be but we know what the wind damage will be in just a few weeks ago with hurricane helene we lost 12 people, they were all in evacuation zones, so the message has been, for the last 48 hours, to get to an evacuation zone if you are ordered to do so. for those who _ if you are ordered to do so. for those who are _ if you are ordered to do so. for those who are in the evacuation zone and who haven't left for whatever reason, you have said the emergency services will not come out to them, so what could it mean for them? that so what could it mean for them? git this point they need to hunker down and try to remain as safe as possible and we are actually approaching the 50 miles per our sustained wind speed now which is what is happening but we just have to hope the storm surge does not

come our way with the 15 feet of storm surge. come our way with the 15 feet of storm surge-— come our way with the 15 feet of storm surae. ., ., , , .., storm surge. how does this compare with previous — storm surge. how does this compare with previous hurricanes _ storm surge. how does this compare with previous hurricanes in _ storm surge. how does this compare with previous hurricanes in the - with previous hurricanes in the area? it with previous hurricanes in the area? , , ., , ., area? it is the strongest we have ever seen- l _ area? it is the strongest we have ever seen- lam _ area? it is the strongest we have ever seen. i am a _ area? it is the strongest we have ever seen. i am a native, - area? it is the strongest we have ever seen. i am a native, of- area? it is the strongest we have ever seen. i am a native, of st i ever seen. i am a native, of st petersburg, 60 years, i have never seen a storm as strong as hurricane helene let alone milton, so we have seen the rise in extreme weather, and i think this is our new normal. really? and what is this going to mean for rebuilding your area? it will be a long rebuild. the priority right now is to keep people safe and we do not want to lose one more person because of the storm. we want people to evacuate to safe places. the rebuild will allow us to rebuild in a resilient and smart way and maybe in places that are currently

where we have folks living now, maybe we would choose not to rebuild very densely in those areas because of the new reality. it is an opportunity to reset. we have incorporated sea level rises to our plans but the rate of change is so much more than we anticipated that it is time for us to readjust and you will see that happen in the way we rebuild the area around here. thanks forjoining us. we really appreciate that because we know how busy you are. let's talk now to a meteorologist called john morales, who was reporting on the hurricane and this happened. just an incredible, incredible, incredible hurricane. it has dropped... it has dropped 50 millibars in ten hours. um, iapologise. this isjust horrific. mr morales, thank

you for talking to us. i know you are unbelievably busy. it was that clip that alerted many around the world as to the scale of the hurricane. can you put the hurricane into context for the british audience? {lit context for the british audience? qt course, it is now the fifth strongest hurricane on record in the atlantic basin, that is how strong it became, and thankfully it is off the peak right now, as it is making its final approach to the state of florida and it is down to 120 mph but the impact is already baked in especially from the storm surge, which i am concerned about, the people who did not evacuate, as i heard with some of your guests, but nevertheless, that is still going to be very costly and potentially killer effect of this hurricane. you have made _ killer effect of this hurricane. you have made that _ killer effect of this hurricane. you have made that very clear. it could be deadly but in terms of the impact

when it makes landfall, just describe that. when it makes landfall, 'ust describe thati when it makes landfall, 'ust describe that. . , ., ., , describe that. the water is already risin: in describe that. the water is already rising in many _ describe that. the water is already rising in many locations _ describe that. the water is already rising in many locations but - describe that. the water is already rising in many locations but it - describe that. the water is already rising in many locations but it willl rising in many locations but it will rise much more quickly when the winds, instead of being an oblique angle to the coastline, start to come on shore pretty perpendicular and that will be happening in the next few hours as the eye of the hurricane which is about five hours away, for making downfall, that is when we will see the water levels rise very quickly from the southern mouth of tampa bay down south, and through so many communities to fort myers to the west coast of the florida peninsula and the windstorm, because even though the winds are off their peak, down to 120, that is still a significant and damaging windstorm which will impact a big portion of central florida in particular and they will be about 15 inches of rain that will lead to

flash flooding and ongoing during the course of the afternoon, in south florida, sorry, in the florida peninsula to be precise, an outbreak of tornadoes, 54 tornado warnings have been issued in the state of florida so far today. can have been issued in the state of florida so far today.— have been issued in the state of florida so far today. can i ask you about the science, _ florida so far today. can i ask you about the science, why _ florida so far today. can i ask you about the science, why is - florida so far today. can i ask you about the science, why is the - about the science, why is the hurricane going to be so intense? many factors. it was a category five hurricane so it is coming off of its peak but the fact it was a category five and is now a category three just means that a lot of the impact has already been baked in it so there are some bad examples of hurricanes that were category five and became category three before landfall, like hurricane katrina, the flag bearer for that kind of impact. the angle of approach to the coast is quite unique in the last 200 years, to have a hurricane come from the western gulf of mexico and approach in perpendicularfashion to the west coast of florida, that means the storm surge will be deeper

so that exacerbates the impact and of course the other impacts i told you about as well. can of course the other impacts i told you about as well.— you about as well. can you talk about the _ you about as well. can you talk about the warming _ you about as well. can you talk about the warming of- you about as well. can you talk about the warming of the - you about as well. can you talk i about the warming of the oceans? scientists say climate change is warming the oceans and hurricanes form above warm water and the heat and moisture is fuelled and gives it energy? tic and moisture is fuelled and gives it ener ? ., ., , and moisture is fuelled and gives it ener: ? ., ., , , ., and moisture is fuelled and gives it eneru? ., , ., ~ energy? no doubt. the gulf of mexico is a record high _ energy? no doubt. the gulf of mexico is a record high right _ energy? no doubt. the gulf of mexico is a record high right now— energy? no doubt. the gulf of mexico is a record high right now in _ energy? no doubt. the gulf of mexico is a record high right now in terms i is a record high right now in terms of ocean heat content and sea temperatures which are running about 1.8 celsius above the historical norm, and the historical norm is a 30 year normal that ended in 2020 so we are not talking about a historical norm from the 19th century, so that is how hot they are and the condition was made 400—700 times more likely because of climate change, according to climate central�*s climate central shift which allows us to quantify the impact of the change in climate on

the warming seas and generally across the world many of the oceans are at record levels in terms of temperature and that is what is reading to not more hurricanes but just a greater proportion of hurricanes and typhoons are becoming category four and five catastrophic systems. category four and five catastrophic s stems. , ., ., ., , category four and five catastrophic s stems. , ., , ., systems. understood. finally, have ou ever systems. understood. finally, have you ever become _ systems. understood. finally, have you ever become emotional- systems. understood. finally, have you ever become emotional before | you ever become emotional before when you have been reporting on these weather events? hat when you have been reporting on these weather events?— when you have been reporting on these weather events? not to that de . ree these weather events? not to that decree but these weather events? not to that degree but i _ these weather events? not to that degree but i think _ these weather events? not to that degree but i think this _ these weather events? not to that degree but i think this has - these weather events? not to that degree but i think this has been i these weather events? not to that degree but i think this has been a| degree but i think this has been a long time coming. it is angst about the increasing of severe weather events and frustration over being a climate communicator and banging the drum about what was coming if we did not take action on climate and here we are and we are seeing these extreme hurricanes happening one after the other and finally, just empathy, just feeling for lives that will be racked. it could have

happened before, but it is going to happened before, but it is going to happen in florida and lives will be taken, lives will be racked, and we just saw that happen two weeks ago with hurricane helene and we are going to continue to see this happening unfortunately because of the world that we have created for ourselves. . ., ., , . ourselves. thanks for “oining us. we reall ourselves. thanks for “oining us. we reauyappreciate— ourselves. thanks for “oining us. we really appreciate you i ourselves. thanks forjoining us. we really appreciate you talking - ourselves. thanks forjoining us. we really appreciate you talking to i ourselves. thanks forjoining us. we really appreciate you talking to our i really appreciate you talking to our audience in the uk. and i want to say thank you to hannah granger and rob and robbie as well. thank you so much, and please take care. thank you. now, with us tonight, sunday times columnist matthew syed and former conservative special adviser anita boateng, and i want to ask you about how the response to this hurricane looks already like it could become a big political issue a month before the us election. former president donald trump has been spreading whatjoe biden calls an "onlsaught of lies" about the use of emergency funds being diverted to migrants after hurricane helene, which hit two weeks ago.

they're dying all over those five, six states. they're dying, and they're getting no help from ourfederal government because they have no money, because their money's been spent on people that should not be in our country. tonight, president biden called mr trump out. former president trump has led the onslaught of lies. assertions have been made that property has been confiscated... that is simply not true. they're saying money for this crisis is being diverted to migrants. they are saying it looks like,

1's heart goes out to those that will suffer. trump, i think, will suffer. trump, ithink, a pathological liar, seeks to weaponised this against biden, but indicative of the sheer poison flowing through the veins of the american republic, largely, i think, from the maga side of the equation. i don't think on balance it will reflect the election result. i think this is all priced in, and when you look at the betting markets, i know they are not perfect predictors of what will happen. tie. predictors of what will happen. no, if ou look predictors of what will happen. no, if you look at _ predictors of what will happen. no, if you look at the tory leadership contest, that is for sure! 0r previous campaigns, but it was pretty much even money. i was confident and i was wrong that the very vivid image of trump after the assassination attempt, rising up defiantly and bloodied, would be decisive, and then i thought his poor performance shifted it towards the new democratic candidate, harris, but it is almost like a magnet, bringing it back to even money, which i think is the worst position for the world, because i

think if it is, as it is likely to be, a disputed election result, it will put more strain on the constitutional norms, the hidden, invisible norms that are so important for any free society. and you can see, presumably, anita, an opportunity for the incumbentjoe biden, but kamala harris, and you can seejeopardy here, because if the emergency response or funds don't come afterwards, the spotlight will be on her. yes, and i slightly think it has mattered _ yes, and i slightly think it has mattered in response to these kinds of crisis _ mattered in response to these kinds of crisis if_ mattered in response to these kinds of crisis. if you look at hurricane sandy _ of crisis. if you look at hurricane sandy or— of crisis. if you look at hurricane sandy or katrina, that was, i think, quite _ sandy or katrina, that was, i think, quite a _ sandy or katrina, that was, i think, quite a seismic moment for instance, with katrina _ quite a seismic moment for instance, with katrina and bush, him praising fema _ with katrina and bush, him praising fema and _ with katrina and bush, him praising fema and saying, i don't know if you remember, — fema and saying, i don't know if you remember, you have done a heck of a 'ob. remember, you have done a heck of a joh and _ remember, you have done a heck of a joh and it _ remember, you have done a heck of a job. and it was indicative of this idea _ job. and it was indicative of this idea that — job. and it was indicative of this idea that bush could not deliver competent government, and that dogged _ competent government, and that dogged him for a while. 0n the other hand. _ dogged him for a while. 0n the other hand. i_ dogged him for a while. 0n the other hand. ithink— dogged him for a while. 0n the other hand, i think 0bama's rapid response to sandy— hand, i think 0bama's rapid response to sandy was one thing that shored up to sandy was one thing that shored up his— to sandy was one thing that shored up his reputation. sol to sandy was one thing that shored up his reputation. so i think these things— up his reputation. so i think these

things can — up his reputation. so i think these things can matter, and i think because — things can matter, and i think because what trump is trying to do is make _ because what trump is trying to do is make this — because what trump is trying to do is make this election a referendum on biden, — is make this election a referendum on biden, if— is make this election a referendum on biden, if there is something quite _ on biden, if there is something quite totemic and powerful that takes _ quite totemic and powerful that takes place that demonstrates a degree — takes place that demonstrates a degree of federal failure, particularly as the spread of misinformation around this, in terms of people _ misinformation around this, in terms of people not being able to leave, the financial support that will be available — the financial support that will be available to those who suffer, because — available to those who suffer, because all of that has circulated too, i_ because all of that has circulated too, i do — because all of that has circulated too, i do think, as you say, in this kind _ too, i do think, as you say, in this kind of— too, i do think, as you say, in this kind of weird— too, i do think, as you say, in this kind of weird centre of gravity election— kind of weird centre of gravity election in which all polls keep coming — election in which all polls keep coming back together, implying it is still a _ coming back together, implying it is still a margin of error vote, because _ still a margin of error vote, because some of the affected states will he _ because some of the affected states will be swing states, not so much florida. _ will be swing states, not so much florida. but— will be swing states, not so much florida, but with helene, we had to swing _ florida, but with helene, we had to swing states that could potentially affect _ swing states that could potentially affect the election, it is sort of still in the _ affect the election, it is sort of still in the mix, i think. and still in the mix, ithink. and in particular. _ still in the mix, ithink. and in particular, the reason i think this could _ particular, the reason i think this could he — particular, the reason i think this could be potent is because the trump story about _ could be potent is because the trump story about migrants is about his broader— story about migrants is about his broader story of, the democrats are not putting — broader story of, the democrats are not putting americans first. yes. and that is _

not putting americans first. yes. and that is something _ not putting americans first. jazz and that is something that connects to the ukraine discussion, the issues — to the ukraine discussion, the issues around this, and so you can see a _ issues around this, and so you can see a situation in which it sort of becomes— see a situation in which it sort of becomes a — see a situation in which it sort of becomes a democrats are sort of for everyone. _ becomes a democrats are sort of for everyone, and we are for you. sol think— everyone, and we are for you. sol think there — everyone, and we are for you. sol think there are elements here that might— think there are elements here that might shape the discussion, at least — let's talk about the tory leadership race. the next conservative leader will be either kemi badenoch or robertjenrick, because in a shock result, james cleverly, who roared into first place after yesterday's round of voting was knocked out today. nick, you were in the room. what happened? the atmosphere was extraordinary. there were gaps when we had the opposing front runner, as you say, james cleverly, being knocked out. there was one tory veteran just behind me who said, sensational, sensational that the final will be between robertjenrick and kemi badenoch, that nobody thought that both of them would be on the final ballot. so people sort of hurried out of the room to find out what on earth had happened, and a number of theories. the first big theory was that a complacent james cleverly

team had lent votes to robert jenrick because they wanted to go against him, not against kemi badenoch, who seems to be much more popular with the membership, and that theory got some legs when tom skinner, a very senior aide to james cleverly, went on lbc and talked about how they had been an almighty cock—up, and that was seen to be him saying, yes, we got that terribly wrong. that was not what he was saying. he wasn't talking about a central command. he was seeing a clock up amongst what the james cleverly campaign was regarding as mps, conservative mps being too clever by half and doing their thing. so what are the theories we are looking at? one is that tom tugendhat supporters, acting under instructions put on their own, basically split two ways, one not wanting to stop kemi badenoch, one not wanting to stop robertjenrick, so they voted the other way, and that then boosted their votes. the other theory doing the rounds is that there was a series of former ministers, quite seniorfigures,

francis urquhart figures, thinking they are in house of cards, and the thinking is they boosted james cleverly in the previous round to make him more complacent stop stories ofjames make him more complacent stop stories of james cleverly on the terrace last night. that is being strongly denied. and then they dumped him in the final round. afterwards, i caught up with one of the final score robertjenrick man said to him, was he a beneficiary of tactical voting? we need professionalism, we need confidence, and we need to focus on the big issues that people really care about, not going off down rabbit holes, not indulging in platitudes. that's not my way. that's not what the public want right now. not going down rabbit holes, talking about the importance of the nhs. are you already backing away, not putting up in lights your one defining issue, which is for the uk to pull out of the echr? no, i believe passionately the uk needs— no, i believe passionately the uk

needs to — no, i believe passionately the uk needs to leave the. you cannot keep foreign _ needs to leave the. you cannot keep foreign criminals out of our country. _ foreign criminals out of our country, and we will not secure our borders— country, and we will not secure our borders unless we do it. you cannot reform it, you cannot ignore it. but it's not the only issue that the public care about, and throughout the campaign, i've said we need to find ways of growing the economy by giving people real skills, by tackling welfare, having a different energy policy as a country, and we've got to obsess about our public services, because we need to be a party a public trust on the nhs as much as our borders. so, what do you make of it all? the final two to be brought before the membership. i think it is a symptom of a party thatis i think it is a symptom of a party that is in an ongoing identity crisis. ijust don't that is in an ongoing identity crisis. i just don't think the conservatives know what they stand for. to an extent, that is something that characterises many parties in western democracies at the moment. what is their stance on the fiscal position, about rising debt? about the central bank mandate? about the role of multilateral institutions? i don't think they are clear about

what brexit should mean still, whether we should be a low tax, low regulatory haven, or whether we should be something completely different. they haven't sorted that out between themselves, and because it is so fundamentally divided, they keep going through leaders. i don't think whoever wins between jen keep going through leaders. i don't think whoever wins betweenjen and they do not will survive until the next general that is a great point. anita, do you think whoever the members choose will be fighting the general election as leader of the tory party in five years? i think there are a lot of choices to be _ i think there are a lot of choices to be made _ i think there are a lot of choices to be made between then and now, and even when _ to be made between then and now, and even when i _ to be made between then and now, and even when i think about how kemi badenoch — even when i think about how kemi badenoch and robert jenrick have fought— badenoch and robert jenrick have fought the election, i don't think _ fought the election, i don't think... and we are still in the early— think... and we are still in the early stages, we haven't got to the end although it has in going for a lon- end although it has in going for a long time, — end although it has in going for a long time, i'm not sure that even tells _ long time, i'm not sure that even tells us _ long time, i'm not sure that even tells us how— long time, i'm not sure that even tells us how they might become party leader~ _ tells us how they might become party leader. take keir starmer, for instance _ leader. take keir starmer, for instance. you very much campaign very differently to how he ran the party, _ very differently to how he ran the party. so — very differently to how he ran the party. so i — very differently to how he ran the party, so i do think that there is quite _ party, so i do think that there is quite a — party, so i do think that there is quite a lot— party, so i do think that there is quite a lot to play for before we make _

quite a lot to play for before we make predictions such as that. but i do think— make predictions such as that. but i do think there is something really important — do think there is something really important and what matthew was kind of alluding to, which is that this contest — of alluding to, which is that this contest is — of alluding to, which is that this contest is slightly —— has slightly been _ contest is slightly —— has slightly been about which leader we have, and i been about which leader we have, and i don't _ been about which leader we have, and i don't think it's possible to argue that idon't think it's possible to argue that every— i don't think it's possible to argue that every single person throughout every _ that every single person throughout every stage of this contest has voted — every stage of this contest has voted for— every stage of this contest has voted for who they genuinely thought would _ voted for who they genuinely thought would be _ voted for who they genuinely thought would be best to be party leader, and given— would be best to be party leader, and given the seriousness of what 'ust and given the seriousness of what just happened injuly, i think that is a serious — just happened injuly, i think that is a serious disappointment and a problem. — is a serious disappointment and a problem, and so the question for the conservative party now, and it is now with — conservative party now, and it is now with the members, but for the party— now with the members, but for the party itself — now with the members, but for the party itself is, does it really reckoned with that? i am concerned there _ reckoned with that? i am concerned there has— reckoned with that? i am concerned there has been a complacency that has come — there has been a complacency that has come in as a result of labour doing _ has come in as a result of labour doing verym _ has come in as a result of labour doing very... making catastrophic, in my— doing very... making catastrophic, in my view, — doing very... making catastrophic, in my view, mistakes, but not things that put— in my view, mistakes, but not things that put the — in my view, mistakes, but not things that put the conservative party necessarily in the frame for winning an election. — necessarily in the frame for winning an election, for instance. so we can't _ an election, for instance. so we can't afford _ an election, for instance. so we can't afford to not have those discussions about how to win back public— discussions about how to win back public trust, and sol discussions about how to win back public trust, and so i think after this. _ public trust, and so i think after this, there is a lot of that leader to really— this, there is a lot of that leader to really talk to the country and not just — to really talk to the country and not just to _ to really talk to the country and not just to the party. nick. _ not just to the party. nick, what kind of reaction were you picking up from conservative mps?

there was some pretty intense reaction. 0bviously, conservatives and the right werejumping around and the right werejumping around and very excited, because they now have two macro candidates from the right. very different ones, because mps on the right, conservative mps, have very different views. 0n the left, the one nation when, some were happy. left, the one nation when, some were happy, because some have decided to go to kemi badenoch, sumpter robert jenrick, but some on that one nation wing very unhappy, and this is what one former conservative minister said to me after that result. they told me: i don't know when the death certificate for the conservative party will be issued. but it will be a private funeral with no wake afterwards. 0k. afterwards. ok. that is one view. but that is pretty damning. that makes it sound like it is over for them, pretty damning. that makes it sound like it is overfor them, in their view. yes, that view essentially says that by having two candidates on the right, you are narrowing the appeal of the party, and in recent elections before the party membership, you had somebody from the right, somebody from the one

nation. i think historians will look back on the decision— i think historians will look back on the decision to _ i think historians will look back on the decision to give _ i think historians will look back on the decision to give the _ the decision to give the determination - the decision to give the determination of- the decision to give the determination of who . the decision to give the i determination of who should the decision to give the - determination of who should be the decision to give the _ determination of who should be the conservative — determination of who should be the conservative party _ determination of who should be the conservative party leader _ determination of who should be the conservative party leader to - determination of who should be the conservative party leader to the i conservative party leader to the members — conservative party leader to the members as— conservative party leader to the members as a _ conservative party leader to the members as a very _ conservative party leader to the members as a very serious i conservative party leader to the i members as a very serious mistake for the _ members as a very serious mistake for the country _ for the country. do _ for the country. do you - for the country. do you agree, i for the country. i do you agree, or for the country. - do you agree, or not? do for the country. _ do you agree, or not? do you for the country. — do you agree, or not? do you know any conservative party members? i do. my wife. sorry, katya! for admitting— i do. my wife. sorry, katya! for admitting this _ i do. my wife. sorry, katya! for admitting this live _ i do. my wife. sorry, katya! for admitting this live on— i do. my wife. sorry, katya! for admitting this live on national. admitting this live on national television _ admitting this live on national television. she _ admitting this live on national television. she is _ admitting this live on national television. she is a _ admitting this live on national television. she is a member. i television. she is a member. who— television. she is a member. who will— television. she is a member. who will she _ television. she is a member. who will she vote _ television. she is a member. who will she vote for? - who will she vote for? i don't know. i don't know that she is following — i don't know. i don't know that she is following it _ i don't know. i don't know that she is following it closely. _ idon't know. i don't know that she is following it closely. of— i don't know. i don't know that she is following it closely. of course ii is following it closely. of course i know _ is following it closely. of course i know conservative _ is following it closely. of course i know conservative members, i is following it closely. of course i. know conservative members, some is following it closely. of course i- know conservative members, some of them _ know conservative members, some of them being _ know conservative members, some of them being friends. _ know conservative members, some of them being friends, and _ know conservative members, some of them being friends, and i— know conservative members, some of them being friends, and i don't- know conservative members, some of them being friends, and i don't want. them being friends, and i don't want to insult— them being friends, and i don't want to insult them. — them being friends, and i don't want to insult them, but _ them being friends, and i don't want to insult them, but they _ them being friends, and i don't want to insult them, but they are - them being friends, and i don't want to insult them, but they are not, i them being friends, and i don't want to insult them, but they are not, on| to insult them, but they are not, on average. _ to insult them, but they are not, on average, representative _ to insult them, but they are not, on average, representative of- to insult them, but they are not, on average, representative of the i to insult them, but they are not, on| average, representative of the wider electorate. — average, representative of the wider electorate. and _ average, representative of the wider electorate, and what _ average, representative of the wider electorate, and what that _ average, representative of the wider electorate, and what that means i average, representative of the wider electorate, and what that means is, | electorate, and what that means is, the candidates — electorate, and what that means is, the candidates seek— electorate, and what that means is, the candidates seek to _ electorate, and what that means is, the candidates seek to package i i'm caitriona perry in washington, and this is bbc world news america. hurricane milton — the biggest storm to hit

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