david david. keir starmer says britain is back on the global stage but with the world on the brink, does he have what it takes? and the government rules out a royal apology for britain's role in the slave trade point why would saying sorry make a difference.

hello. in his first week as prime minister, keir starmer declared britain was back on the world stage. with his foreign secretary david lammy on an official visit to china, keir starmer�*s been in berlin today meeting the other leaders of the so—called quad — the us, germany and france. he said the international community must "make the most of this moment" to push for peace in the middle east, after the killing of the hamas leader. tonight we're looking at britain's place in the world — and asking does the prime minister have the clout to make britain count. on our panel the ft�*s lucy fisher and the political columnist and podcaster steve richards. welcome to you both. there is this sense that leaning outwards,

building bridges, the government, a sense even perhaps that they are bending over backwards to help some countries and you have a story that has just gone up on the website that speaks to that? hasjust gone up on the website that speaks to that?— speaks to that? interestingly, we found this week, _ speaks to that? interestingly, we found this week, just _ speaks to that? interestingly, we found this week, just days - speaks to that? interestingly, we found this week, just days before david lammy headed off to beijing for his first meeting with his chinese counterpart, angela rayner, the housing secretary, called in the decision, the stilt planning decision, the stilt planning decision, six years of wrangling now come over china building a new mega— embassy in london, called that in to make a central decision, taking it out of the hands of tower hamlets, the local government under questions have been raised about the timing of that and that we know it is a priority for the chinese government to try to press ahead with building this new diplomatic mission in central london. uk government officials deny that any link between the two met removed but its created suspicions including among mps. we will talk much more this through the programme but how do you think has

keir starmer been using foreign policy since he got into number 10? firstly he's been using it a lot. he has been — firstly he's been using it a lot. he has been abroad more than any other incoming _ has been abroad more than any other incoming prime minister in modern times_ incoming prime minister in modern times in— incoming prime minister in modern times in the — incoming prime minister in modern times in the early months of his premiership points at three comes to the united _ premiership points at three comes to the united states, quite a lot to europe — the united states, quite a lot to europe i— the united states, quite a lot to europe. i think he has now concluded he has _ europe. i think he has now concluded he has been — europe. i think he has now concluded he has been abroad too much. do you think he has? — he has been abroad too much. do you think he has? yes, it _ think he has? yes, it was interesting, _ think he has? yes, it was interesting, blair, - think he has? yes, it was i interesting, blair, thatcher, cameron, _ interesting, blair, thatcher, cameron, there was less going on in the world _ cameron, there was less going on in the world put one of the reasons he's brought a lot is the world is on edge — he's brought a lot is the world is on edge. but you need to focus as much _ on edge. but you need to focus as much on _ on edge. but you need to focus as much on domestic policy, more than he has _ much on domestic policy, more than he has been — much on domestic policy, more than he has been doing because he's been in washington and new york, three times, _ in washington and new york, three times, you — in washington and new york, three times, you have been with him. it's extraordinary. blairand times, you have been with him. it's extraordinary. blair and cameron and thatcher— extraordinary. blair and cameron and thatcher did — extraordinary. blair and cameron and thatcher did not have the same problems _ thatcher did not have the same problems. he arrives as the first incoming — problems. he arrives as the first incoming prime minister for many years— incoming prime minister for many years who — incoming prime minister for many years who is fully aware that foreign —

years who is fully aware that foreign policy is going to suck up his time — foreign policy is going to suck up his time and he has used it as prime ministers _ his time and he has used it as prime ministers do — his time and he has used it as prime ministers do when they first arrive, partly— ministers do when they first arrive, partly to— ministers do when they first arrive, partly to reset rings but a lot of it is tonal— partly to reset rings but a lot of it is tonal at this stage could reship— it is tonal at this stage could reship the relationship with europe? not remake europe, that would be ambitious! — not remake europe, that would be ambitious! but quite a lot of it is tonai~ _ ambitious! but quite a lot of it is tonal. there are some substantial changes — tonal. there are some substantial changes is— tonal. there are some substantial changes. is really committed to international law. it's one of the things— international law. it's one of the things he — international law. it's one of the things he is unyielding about and he has proven— things he is unyielding about and he has proven himself flexible on many things— has proven himself flexible on many things but— has proven himself flexible on many things but not that i think it does -ive things but not that i think it does give a _ things but not that i think it does give a certain authority and credibility that has been lacking in recent— credibility that has been lacking in recent years. but the rest of it will depend partly on what happens in the _ will depend partly on what happens in the united states in november and other factors like that but it has been _ other factors like that but it has been perhaps too big a focus in the early— been perhaps too big a focus in the early months. been perhaps too big a focus in the early months— been perhaps too big a focus in the earl months. ~ ., , ., ., ., early months. would you agree, what was it like on — early months. would you agree, what was it like on that _ early months. would you agree, what was it like on that plane _ early months. would you agree, what was it like on that plane any - was it like on that plane any insights on the trip? i was it like on that plane any insights on the trip? i slightly disa . ree insights on the trip? i slightly disagree because _ insights on the trip? i slightly disagree because i _ insights on the trip? i slightly disagree because i think you | insights on the trip? i slightly - disagree because i think you have to respond to the world as it is.

incredibly dangerous inflection point in the release and a strategic juncture in the war in ukraine and if he wants to prove this message that the uk is back on the world stage as a major engaged player, we know rishi sunak was not particularly interested in world affairs, ithink particularly interested in world affairs, i think he has had to take part. and to my mind, going just a week after the election to the nato summit in washington was actually quite a good opportunity for him to have this showboating on the world stage. it was something of a golden boy i was really struck at the end of these trips, coming back to the back of the plane and having a chat, he really seemed pumped up and other diplomats told me that world leaders were queueing up to have the equivalent of selfies with him, asking him how he won so big and what's your tip. i think he felt really good about that arrival moment in washington. but as steve says, there have been multiple trips to the us, he probably had to attend

the united nations general assembly put it again, rishi sunak decided to skip that and it did not go down well. but in the first 100 days, you do want to grip the domestic agenda and we know that has not happened. i'm not suggesting he should just have stayed here and be this pathetic— have stayed here and be this pathetic parochial figure, and you are right — pathetic parochial figure, and you are right that you cannot turn some of these _ are right that you cannot turn some of these things down but it's interesting that these are the figures — interesting that these are the figures who to some extent were defined _ figures who to some extent were defined by foreign policy in the end. _ defined by foreign policy in the end, spent more time in the uk in the early— end, spent more time in the uk in the early months. as i say, there are reasons — the early months. as i say, there are reasons and you are right, the world _ are reasons and you are right, the world is— are reasons and you are right, the world is on— are reasons and you are right, the world is on edge, that he is doing this _ world is on edge, that he is doing this but — world is on edge, that he is doing this but if— world is on edge, that he is doing this. but if you are out of number 10 for— this. but if you are out of number 10 for long — this. but if you are out of number 10 for long periods of time, exhausted through these kind ofjet iagging _ exhausted through these kind ofjet lagging trips, it has been a factor in why— lagging trips, it has been a factor in why some of the domestic agenda has been _ in why some of the domestic agenda has been wobbling, not the main one but a _ has been wobbling, not the main one but a factor. i has been wobbling, not the main one but a factor-— but a factor. i 'ust want to get a sense of what— but a factor. i just want to get a sense of what is _ but a factor. i just want to get a sense of what is happening - but a factor. i just want to get a i sense of what is happening inside the labour party.

earlier i spoke to emily thornberry. she was the party's shadow foreign secretary underjeremy corbyn and is now set to chair parliament's prestigious foreign affairs select committee. i started by asking her to lay out keir starmer�*s foreign policy vision. i think the first thing is, is that we are optimistic because we've just won an election and we're a progressive government and we're going to be in for at least five years, hopefully ten. and if you compare us to the rest of the g7, the fact that we are going to be stability, we're going to be here a while and we're here to help. we're back. is there an element of realpolitik, if you like, about it? i mean, they've given away the chagos islands, they've rowed back on their criticisms in opposition of donald trump. they're now seemingly today sucking up to china, a despotic regime accused of spying on uk parliamentarians by postponing a visit from a taiwanese politician. so they are building relationships, but at what cost? how did you get so cynical? i mean, really the chagos islands are not our islands. the chagos islands future needed to be sorted out.

the conservative government started the negotiations and the labour government has is completing those negotiations. it was the right thing to do. it's in accordance with international law. we just need to make sure that we get it right. we've always said that we want to cooperate with the chinese where we can. we're going to challenge them where we where we need to and we know that we compete with them as well. i mean, all of these things, you know, are consistent. but, you know, our overriding thing is that we need to have growth as a country. and so of course, our international relationships will be supporting that. do you have reservations about cultivating closer ties with china? we need to have a straightforward relationship with china, i think, which is that our commercial relationship... well, we get our stuff from china. we can't walk away from china. we can't fix the problems with the warming planet without working with china. we have to make sure that we have a relationship, a clear relationship with china, and we need to be clear

about what we disagree with. if the problems in the taiwan straits continue, if that closes, then actually international trade will be devastated by it. so, you know, of course we need to make sure that that is not going to happen. we need to be clear about hong kong. we need to make clear our deep reservations about the treatment of the uyghur. is what the chinese are doing to the uighurs genocide? and should keir starmer be saying it is? i think that it is... it's a little bit... so, i always think of genocide as the attempt to get rid of a population, yes. to kill off a population. there is an argument that... i'm sorry. i'm turning into a lawyer. i'm a lawyer here. but i think that the forced abortions of uyghur women is defined, i think, as genocide, just about. but i don't care, you know, whether it's just about a genocide or not. the treatment of the uyghurs is appalling and should stop the way in which they're forced to work, the way

in which they are trying to change their culture, they're trying to take them away from their religion. all of that is wrong and has been condemned and rightly condemned. and there is work going on internationally when it comes to sanctions for people who are involved in that. we also need to be very careful about what trade we do with that particular part of china, if what is produced there is produced as a result of slavery. so, yes, i mean, we need to be clear about that. i'm sorry, i can't be clear about whether it's a genocide or not. but that doesn't matter. what matters is that their treatment is wrong. and we need to use all levers that we can to exert pressure on china. but we don't just walk away from china and just say, "we're not having anything to do with you." 0bviously, that's just not right. was it right at labour conference for labour to have an event sponsored by tiktok? well, why not? i mean, we're not sanctioning china. we're not going to not have anything to do with china. we're not going to not trade with china. i mean, how many things in the studio were made in china?

i mean, let's be realistic here. you know, when it comes to investment in our country, we should welcome investment from china. but we need to be very clear about the security implications. well, let's turn to where keir starmer is right now. he's meeting biden. it's probably president biden's last trip to europe. the next time a president comes to this part of the world, it could be a very different president. how do you think keir starmer should approach donald trump if he wins? so, whatever we think of donald trump, if he becomes the next president of the united states, he's the president of the united states, and the united states is one of our closest allies. i'm quite sure that we all have favourites, and we all have an idea of who we'd like to be the next president. but if president trump is elected, we work with him. and there are reports of lots of labour staff heading off to campaign for kamala harris. it's angered quite a lot of people on the right. should keir starmer have allowed it to happen? if people want to use their free time to campaign in another country, we're not going to stop people. i mean, if they feel committed to it and they want a democrat

president to be elected, then let them go and do it. would you campaign for kamala harris? i actually don't think that british politicians going over to america and telling the americans the way they should vote really helps. so just as i don't think if an american politician came here and told me how to vote, i don't think i'd like that. so no, i'm not going to do that. i'd like to get a sense of your view as keir starmer, as a statesman. if you look back, you've got kind of thatcher, blair, johnson, arguably, they were statesmen who allowed britain to punch above its weight diplomatically, in part by the force of their personalities. and i wonder whether you think keir starmer has that. i think that what you see is what you get with keir, and i think that he is he's certainly strong. he's certainly, you know, a stable personality. and as i say... does he have the foreign policy x factor? i mean he's got the x factor in that he's got a large majority and he's going to be around for five years.

and who knows how long the rest of these people are going to be around. and when it comes to the middle east, it looks like a moment when potentially there could be a push for peace. can keir starmer have any kind of influence over, for example, pushing for a ceasefire? i mean, the world is pretty united on this. there has to be a ceasefire in gaza. there has to be a stop to the fighting in southern lebanon. and your party's been saying that for a long time now. and so has the rest of the world. and we need to try to ensure that the israelis are persuaded that the death of the hamas leader is enough. stop now. now we need to have the ceasefire, and now we need to sit down, we need to find out what the long term solution is, because carrying on like this is not making the israeli people any more secure, let alone what it's doing to the palestinians. and when you came on last year, it was very soon after october the 7th, and you were unwilling to describe israel cutting off food and water as breaking international law. 42,000 people have died in gaza since. are you still of that opinion?

so, i mean, i can speak a little bit more freely now than i was able to last time because we had had conversations and we had been led to believe that the israelis were about to go in to gaza to get the hostages back. and for that reason, they were, as we understood it, in the short term, going to be cutting off food, and they were going to be cutting off water, and they were going to be cutting off electricity, and they were going to close the borders. and then they were going in and there was going to be a sort of entebbe type raid. that's what we understood. so it was going to be a short term? so it was a short term. but i'm asked about that and i, what can i do? you know, i mean, i came across as tongue tied but it was, it was for that reason. so now what would you say? well, clearly we know what international law says. and, you know, clearly the forced movement of a population from one place to another is a breach of international law. the starvation of individuals is, you know,

for war purposes is a deliberate, uh, starvation of people is a war crime, etc, etc. are you saying israel has broken international law? i'm saying that there will be a reckoning for all sides, and they will go before international courts, and they will be tried in the appropriate place. i am not trying people one way or the other. i would certainly expect there to be a number of people and a numberfrom all sides, ending up before the courts, and they should do because there should be accountability for breaches of international law. emily thornberry, thank you very much. not at all. lucy and steve are still here. i wonder what you make of that and whether you get a sense from that of what keir starmer�*s foreign policy vision is, is it emerging? he what keir starmer's foreign policy vision is, is it emerging?- vision is, is it emerging? he and his foreign _ vision is, is it emerging? he and his foreign secretary _ vision is, is it emerging? he and his foreign secretary david - vision is, is it emerging? he and i his foreign secretary david lammy have come up with the idea of aggressive realism, trying to be a progressive force for good in the world but also realism, and we have

seen a healthy dose of that since keir starmer came to power in terms of real politic, and david lammy is going to china this weekend, that is a key step, his first visit, very much the view of the foreign office that this will be the start of a conversation, not a visit in isolation, and we know rachel reeves isolation, and we know rachel reeves is going in the new year, and there is going in the new year, and there is a sense this is only the second senior uk level trip, diplomatic trip in the past six years. we are caettin trip in the past six years. we are getting twe _ trip in the past six years. we are getting twe and _ trip in the past six years. we are getting two. and in _ trip in the past six years. we are getting two. and in the - trip in the past six years. we are getting two. and in the same - trip in the past six years. we are - getting two. and in the same amount of time it we have _ getting two. and in the same amount of time it we have had _ getting two. and in the same amount of time it we have had eight - getting two. and in the same amount of time it we have had eight from - of time it we have had eight from the us to the chinese mainland so there is a sense that the uk has been out of sync, and emily thornberry said it is about cooperate, challenge and compete, with china, but clearly there is a move to engage more and to make sure there is a conversation flowing, so thatis there is a conversation flowing, so that is one area where we are seeing this real politic emerging. haifa that is one area where we are seeing this real politic emerging.— this real politic emerging. how do ou think

this real politic emerging. how do you think keir _ this real politic emerging. how do you think keir starmer _ this real politic emerging. how do you think keir starmer will - this real politic emerging. how do i you think keir starmer will compare with prime ministers of the past when it comes to foreign policy? they all start out with a great sense — they all start out with a great sense of— they all start out with a great sense of excitement almost, and we have examples, and we talked about china, _ have examples, and we talked about china, david cameron wooed them early— china, david cameron wooed them early on _ china, david cameron wooed them early on and so did george osborne, the chancellor, and so did boris johnson, — the chancellor, and so did boris johnson, actually, i remember him saying _ johnson, actually, i remember him saying he _ johnson, actually, i remember him saying he likes china. we johnson, actually, i remember him saying he likes china.— saying he likes china. we can see ictures saying he likes china. we can see pictures of— saying he likes china. we can see pictures of david _ saying he likes china. we can see pictures of david cameron - saying he likes china. we can see pictures of david cameron in - saying he likes china. we can see pictures of david cameron in the l saying he likes china. we can see i pictures of david cameron in the pub with xijinping. it pictures of david cameron in the pub with xi jinping-_ with xi jinping. it was quite early on in his premiership _ with xi jinping. it was quite early on in his premiership and - with xi jinping. it was quite early on in his premiership and then . with xi jinping. it was quite early i on in his premiership and then tory mps rebelled against that approach and it— mps rebelled against that approach and it became much 1420 00:17:37,929