and liam payne's father has read tributes outside the hotel in argentina where the one direction star died. now on bbc news, the media show. hello, i'm ros atkins. and i'm katie razzall. this week, a new archive documenting the horrific treatment of captives by the islamic state group. we speak to the journalist behind the project. we're also going to hear from a journalist who's received an apology from the hollywood star anne hathaway. it's all to do with an interview from 2012, which has now gone viral. we'll hear the full story. this year marks 10 years since this year marks 10 years since the so—called islamic state the so—called islamic state declared its caliphate. declared its caliphate. and now a group ofjournalists and now a group ofjournalists is seeking to preserve evidence is seeking to preserve evidence of what the islamic state group of what the islamic state group

did in order to hold did in order to hold it to account. it to account. as is deserted these as is deserted these sites, they left behind sites, they left behind thousands of artefacts. thousands of artefacts. the isis prisons museum project the isis prisons museum project was created to collect was created to collect and archive this evidence. and archive this evidence. to find out more, we spoke to find out more, we spoke to the director of the museum, to the director of the museum, amer matar, and discovered his amer matar, and discovered his personal reason for personal reason for setting up the project. setting up the project. in 2013, isis in 2013, isis kidnapped my brother. kidnapped my brother. his name mohammad nour matar, any news about him. his name mohammad nour matar, and he was a cameraman filming and he was a cameraman filming the city and the fight the city and the fight between the society and isis between the society and isis and the different islamic and the different islamic groups in the city. groups in the city. when he was doing that, when he was doing that, isis kidnapped him. isis kidnapped him. the first time in the summer, the first time in the summer, and after one month they kidnapped him and we didn't have any information about him since then until now. and we start many different and after one month they

things to catch any...like, to have any information,

uh, prisoners, torture tools, uh, names and stories in the walls. and when you say names on the walls, just describe that. what do you mean by names on walls? most of the prisoners, they try to write their names in the wall. because when you are in this type of prison, you want to write your name in the walljust to leave a message for your family, or anyone maybe can enter this prison after you. they will know you were there. myself, when i was in the syrian regime prison in 2011, i did that in each new room, me and all the prisoners, because i didn't know at this time if i would survive or not. and that's technique people do a lot when they are really close to be killed, and they didn't know if they will return to their families.

and what stories did you learn about from going into the prisons? are there particular stories you remember about people who died or people who survived? there is one guy, his name abu madyan, in prison in al—tabqa area, next to raqqa. he was, like, writing stories for his little sun. i think he was a few years old, his sun, and many emotional, like, messages. and i was searching for his family because he write his details, his, uh, address and all the information. and then i saw the family, and they don't know any information about him until now. we just... we just know the messages he left in the walls.

but you don't know what happened to that man? no, no. and what do you hope this project, the isis prisons museum, what do you hope it will achieve? we hope to help thousands of families to find information about their loved ones, and also to understand who was there leading this presence, which system they build, and to explain this to the world. i think that's so important. and also to save this important document, like, for the future to, like...because it's part of our dark history and we have to know what happens and to learn from that. do you think one day you will find out what happened to your brother? i hope so. i'm working all the time. i'm fighting the situation, the reality, just to, uh, try to find any information.

like, my mother all the time asked me if there is a new... if there is news about my brother, if we have any information or not. well, that was amer matar, the director of the isis prisons project. next, we heard from robin yassin—kassab, its chief english editor. i was asked earlier how manyl journalists were taken by isis, and we don't have a precise figure, but we can - say certainly dozens. of course, we've all heard i about the western journalists that were taken and negotiatedl for, but there were many syrian and iraqi journalists, too. and of course, isis didn't - distinguish between an official journalist, a citizen l journalist, somebody who was uploading something to a facebook page, people . who were just taking - photographs in the street, and even people who, _ you know, accessed the internet from home rather than going through an isis—controlled .

internet cafe. all of these people, _ they put them under the bracket of spies and treated them very badly. i and many were taken into is prisons or facilities of some form. when you and your colleagues have gone into those prisons to try and document what happened there, help us understand the work that that has involved. well, one thing that happens... firstly, it's gathering any evidence that we find. i so as amer said, - we've come up with... ..we've found over 70,000 documents, some of theml on paper, some of them typed, a lot of them on hard _ drives, also on phones that were left behind. i they include internal- correspondence, directives, arrest reports, interrogation reports, audio recordings of| interrogations, plus clothing, objects, torture tools. - and then what the team did - was they filmed every room 360

degrees, so that if you go - to our website, you can go on, um, you know, virtual tours. of these buildings and you can zoom in on the names written on the walls and other bits i of forensic evidence. and you're mentioning there some technology you've used involved in the 360—degree filming and the way that you're putting that online. have you used technology in other ways to find ways of documenting all of the different types of material that you've just described? yeah. well, we've got this, um, huge archive, all of this . documentation and other stuff, photographs and drone - footage and so on of mass graves, for example. - all of this information - is being added to our archive, and we've used a software cold linkurious, which is the same i software that was actually used for the panama papers - investigations, and that gives you a kind of graph system, i

a visual representation of data which shows the connections l between entities. so, for example, if you type into the system a name - like hamad abdullah, you will see a visual i representation of everywhere i where this guy's name has come up, every document that he's been mentioned in, | every prison or base or other site that he's been _ connected to. and finally, let me ask you about one investigation that you've been particularly involved in with relation to the stadium prison in raqqa in syria. tell us about that and the particular work you did there? well, the stadium in raqqa, as the name suggests, - it was a sports stadium i which was then taken over by various people as the syrian revolution progressed. - the first attempt after- the assad regime had been kicked out of raqqa, - the first attempt was actually

media, civil society media people tried to set up - a media centre there. that only lasted for a couple of months, and they were i evicted by islamist and jihadi militias who made _ a sharia court there. then isis kicked out those militias, took| over the whole of raqqa, and it used it as its- largest security prison, as it cold it, in syria. . and there were 46 rooms - in the basement of this stadium where they detained people. we've relied there specifically on the documents and - the forensic evidence - that we found in the stadium. also 11 witness testimonies, i ex—prisoners, plus interviews with civil engineers who knew about the building _ and its construction, | and the civil activists and a former jailer. and of course, we've got hoursl and hours of witness testimony, which is usually ex—prisoners standing in the rooms- in which they were detained

and tortured, talking - about what happened to them. and we've produced four different investigations i based on that one prison. it's an extraordinary undertaking. robin, thank you for describing it. that's robin yassin—kassab, who's chief english editor of this project. and as mentioned, one of the aims of the isis prisons museum is to preserve evidence for future prosecutions. to understand this dimension of the project's work, i'm joined by yvonne mcdermott rees, professor of law at swansea university. just how useful are materials gathered byjournalists in international prosecutions for, say, war crimes or crimes against humanity? because there have been some pretty high—profile examples ofjournalists actually giving evidence. i mean, the bbc�*sjeremy bowen testified at the hague at the trial of a bosnian croat war criminal, for example. yes, the use of- journalistic content isn't really anything new.

as you say, we've had some very high—profile examples _ of journalists testifying i before the international criminal tribunal for. the former yugoslavia and the international criminal tribunal for rwanda, - and more recently, then we've had journalists testified - before the international- criminal court in the hague in the number of cases. so the use ofjournalistic - content in this way is nothing new, but i do think it'sj something that's going to hasten with the adventj of open—source evidence, and courts around the world l are recognising how this kind of evidence, basically stuff that's freely available - on the internet, can be| used in the prosecution and proving - international crimes. and journalists play a big role in that because often it's- journalists who are verifying i this content, reporting on it, checking that it is- what it purports to be. can ijust interrupt to ask you what standards would...you know, things like journalists�* interviews or photos or videos, you know, what standards need to be met in orderfor them to be used in court, in terms of, i suppose, the verification?

so i'm an evidence law professor, and i oftenl train investigators, _ lawyers, judges from different legal systems, and one question i always get asked is, _ what does the international criminal court require? - perhaps, unhelpfully, it's not like there's i a checklist that says, - "if you want your evidence to be admissible, "you have to do a, b and c." - so it's a typical lawyer'sj answer, but it depends. basically, the international criminal court has quite . a liberal approach to - the admission of evidence. they admit a wide range i of evidence, so long as it's seen to be relevant, i but also, importantly, reliable, and that it's not prejudicial to the rights l of the accused to admit it. so how do we show that something's reliable? . that will come down i to things like the chain of custody of the evidence. so things that robin _ was mentioning there, you know, making sure that it's very clearly documented — - this is where we found this, this is how we preserved it. j

that's all going to be relevant in determining the reliability. of a piece of evidence. by today, there are actually dedicated camera phone... | ..smartphone apps that are out there designed i specifically to help people i who are documenting videos and images if they want them to be admitted in court. - so that does things - like capture the metadata, stores it securely to ensure that its chain of custody- can be preserved. and you were talking about robin. i mean, the isis prisons museum, when i first heard about it, ifound it so fascinating and so interesting, but also very optimistic, in a sense, because you think, you know, this isjournalism being used for the good, in the sense of notjust helping families, but also potentially helping future prosecutions. but are there other examples, other archives like that that have successfully led to prosecutions? absolutely. so when i was listening to robin speaking, - i was thinking about the caesar files, which was an initiative i to gather...basically- to smuggle photographs from prisons in syria, uh, out.

and they have been used... for example, there was a casel in koblenz in germany a couple of years ago which used - evidence from the caesar files. there's also, like, a rich seam of archival projects _ in the last decade or so. perhaps one of the most well known is the syrian archive. i it's preserved something. like 3.5 million videos from the conflict in syria online. and their archival material has been used in prosecutions- in germany, in france. i was mentioning jeremy bowen earlier, but is it fairly common or common for journalists to testify in international criminal courts? i would say it's not uncommon. so we've had... for example, there was a case in the mali situation _ in the international criminal. court recently, where a dutch journalist had basically- arrived in timbuktu and found a filing cabinet full— of documents that were passed to the prosecution, and that journalist was then -

called to testify. so that'sjust one example... sorry to interrupt. what about the potential conflicts of interest for a journalist in this position? potentially, for example, one of the things a journalist does not want to do is reveal their sources. but how does that work when it comes to a court case? yeah. so i think there's a broader tension, maybe, in terms. of thinking about the role of the journalist. - are they an objective, impartial observer, i or are they someone who's there to bear witness? - and those two things are kind of different. | there has been some really interesting case law, - again from the yugoslav tribunal, where - witnesses...journalists have been cold to testify, - and sometimes they've noti wanted to come and testify. so the court, basically, in that tribunal found . that they can be compelled to come only where it's - directly relevant and _ important, and there's no other way of getting. the evidence out. the situation is slightly- different in the international criminal court because it doesn't have the same . powers to compel. but you mentioned a really interestingj issue, which is sources. so the confidentiality

of sources is really. important to journalists, . and most legal systems do recognise a form of kind - of privilege where journalists can't be forced to reveal i their confidential sources. i suppose the other side i of that, then, is how much weight can the court give - to evidence where an individual says, "somebody, i won't tell you who, told me this"? - and then, you know, the defence will say, j "we can't cross—examine that. "we don't know who the original source is." - now to a journalist who's gone viral for her celebrity interviews and for the apology she received from anne hathaway. kjersti flaa interviewed the hollywood star back in 2012 for the film les miserables. but we're talking about this now because a selection of clips from that interview, the most uncomfortable sections of that interview, to be honest, have gone viral. here's some of them. so i was going to ask you to do the first question in singing. i can i sing it to you? and you can sing| back the answer.

well, i won't be doing that, but you're more than welcome to sing. kjersti flaa from tv2 norway. ok, i will try. so were there any awkward i moments like this on the set? because you had - to sing and not talk. do you feel that love was more passionate back then, - or people would sacrifice more for love than we do today? - no. no? no. do you rememberyour first crush? _ um, no. you don't? 0k. thank you. well, joining us on the media show is kjersti flaa. thank you for your time. i know you'll have seen this a few times, but when you hear it back, do you still wince? cringe? yes, i do still cringe. and there are going to be people thinking, "hold on. "this happened in 2012. "why are we talking about it on the media show in 2024?" what's the reason? well, the story began, actually, in august, when i posted an interview with blake lively that i did in 2016.

and the reason why i posted it then was because it was a very uncomfortable interview that didn't go well at all. and after i posted it, it went viral. also, for the reason that blake lively was being criticised for her promo tour for her movie that was just released, it ends with us, so that kind of added to the tension around her. and then that kind of made me want to explain what had happened behind the scenes of that interview, because a lot of people on youtube were taking my interview and having opinions about it, and there were all these, like, weird conspiracy theories around it. so i decided that i wanted to go out and explain what had happened myself. and that's when i started these new videos on youtube showing when things are going great and when things are not going so great. and that's what happened with this anne hathaway interview.

and you've received an apology from anne hathaway recently, but watching it back, did you think, "well, maybe i put her in a difficult situation "by singing the questions "and asking her to sing the answers back"? ah, not really. i think, you know, if you watch how the other actors reacted to it, i think sometimes, you know, you're in these situations and people sit there, like you're saying, for hours and do these, like, four— or five—minutes interview back to back to back to back. so most actors do appreciate when you try to do something different. but she didn't. and i totally respect that she didn't want to sing back, but for me it was the tone of everything, and i think that's why people reacted to it, that it wasn't very nice. i think that you can always say you don't want to answer a question, but you can do it in, you know, in a polite way and not kind of sabotage the rest of the interview because of that. i don't know if you saw this, but the journalist simon mills has been following the furore

around your videos and has written in the times written in the times newspaper — "hathaway's act newspaper — "hathaway's act of contrition, the apology, of contrition, the apology, is a huge crossing—the—floor is a huge crossing—the—floor moment for show—business moment for show—business media, "the content—maker media, "the content—maker and content—provider "now and content—provider "now on a similar billing on a similar billing and demanding equal respect. and demanding equal respect. "it is the internet "it is the internet that has done this." so he's saying that this that has done this." so he's saying that this is a big, big moment is a big, big moment for howjunkets work. for howjunkets work. do you agree? do you agree? wow, i didn't see that at all. wow, i didn't see that at all. so i'm definitely so i'm definitely going to read that. well, hmm, i'm not sure. going to read that. well, hmm, i'm not sure. the thing is, what's happening right now, the thing is, what's happening right now, which is different from which is different from when i did these interviews. when i did these interviews. back then, you used to get is a way to promote a film, back then, you used to get a hard copy or you used to get a hard copy or you used to get a card with the interview on. a card with the interview on. now they will send you a link now they will send you a link with the interview. with the interview. and if there's anything in that and if there's anything in that interview that the studio interview that the studio or publicist or someone doesn't or publicist or someone doesn't like, they will cut that like, they will cut that out before you even out before you even receive the interview. receive the interview. so the censorship so the censorship is much stronger. is much stronger. so i think this probably so i think this probably won't happen because it's won't happen because it's going to get censored before going to get censored before the journalist even the journalist even gets the interview. gets the interview.

and just to explain, a junket and just to explain, a junket is a way to promote a film,

and then she also invited me to interview her for her next movie. did you take her up on it or were you still full of trepidation? no, i mean, that's going to happen in may, so we'll see what happens. 0k. well, that's a pressjunket for you to look forward to. but let's just talk about them because, i mean, i've got colleagues here at the bbc who are absolutely brilliant at them. and i was talking to one of them today who was saying he really thinks about everything ahead of it, including what he's going to wear. he said he did a really successful interview years ago withjulia roberts, when he'd read that she liked knitwear, and so he deliberately put on a knitted jumper and felt that that was really part of why she warmed to him and liked him. how do you prepare for them? because they can be incredibly short. i mean, four to five minutes, i think. you know, i think they can be very flat and boring and repetitive, these interviews. so i'm always doing a lot of research beforehand. i watched interviews where the same talent had been talking to press about other things in their lives, and i'm trying to make it a little personal. and as a freelancer, i've been working for a lot

of different tv shows that are more celebrity—based than actually movie—focused. so i've always had the angle of a little more personal approach, and that sometimes is received well, and sometimes i get cut off and say, "you're here to talk about the movie!" and ijust have to say that i'm not really there to talk about the movie. i'm there as a journalist, and i'm not... quite often they don't realise that, do they? or they don't accept that. we go there as journalists. i come in news, i'm coming there from a news perspective. i'm not therejust to promote a movie. and yet quite often i'd say the publicists, and certainly perhaps the celebrities as well, don't expect that or accept that. and as i'm listening to the two of you, katie, i'm wondering, you know, we heard there from kjersti about the fact that some people, when they organise junkets, essentially reserve the right to not necessarily pass on all of the interview if they don't feel that it's gone that way. how does it work with the bbc or other british journalists? well, we certainly always shoot our own interviews. so we go and i insist, "i'm not

going to do it in that room. "i'm going to do it in, you know, a different room." we're going to get our own interview, and we're in charge of all of that. and i would never do an interview in four minutes because i don't think... perhaps i'm not good enough, journalist enough, like kjersti, to be able to get something out of somebody in four minutes. but, equally, four minutes is too short for what we want. it's fine for sort of... i'm not saying you do this, kjersti, but works for viral clips and that sort of thing. but in terms of wanting a longer interview, if i'm going along to interview a big film director or a big movie star, i'm going to run it on various outlets, including some that might want 25, 30 minutes. kjersti, just before you go, who's next? what's the nextjunket? we'll see about that. i don't know. no—one has invited me for anything right now. you think going viral has maybe put them off? yeah. do you think they've banned you? yeah. maybe. you know, that could happen. and, you know, it's ok. it's ok for me if i don't get invited to a lot of these in the future. they have changed a lot. also, you know, it's not happening that much as it used to. but, you know, i'm happy

to interview anyone that's nice and polite, so... well, there we go. junkets — have you got any planned? i haven't, i confess. i try and avoid them, but there are some stars that i want to interview, including paul mescal from gladiator. you would go to a junket? i think i would. for paul mescal, i would go to a junket. yeah, absolutely. well, junkets is where we leave it. thank you for watching. we'll see you soon. bye— bye. thanks, goodbye. and if you'd like to hear a longer version of today's show, search bbc "the media show" wherever you get your bbc podcasts. hello! we've been seeing some pleasant autumn weather across many parts of the uk this afternoon, but for the second half of the weekend things look very different. our first named storm of the season, storm ashley. and particularly for the west of scotland, this brings the threat of severe gales. coastal flooding disruption is looking pretty likely now. on the satellite picture you can see this storm developing, this vast shield of cloud in the atlantic, an area of low pressure

which is going to be deepening as it approaches our shores, see more and more isobars forming in the centre of this low, where we see a low deepening rapidly as it approaches the uk. that always brings with it the threat of some strong winds. and so we have this met office amber warning that's been issued for western scotland for tomorrow. 70 to 80 mph wind gusts are looking likely. this afternoon things are a lot calmer. we've had this band of rain across some eastern parts that are continuing to clear some good spells of sunshine. small chance of a shower and temperature wise, well, north to south, 13 to 17 degrees. as we head into this evening briefly, things will turn quite chilly under those clear skies, but we see cloud and rain gathering out towards the west, heavy rain at that pushing its way eastwards and through the second half of the night. gales will start to develop across some western coasts. temperatures by the end of the night. 8 degrees in aberdeen. 14 degrees in plymouth. some mild air in association with our storm system,

which will be approaching from the west. this band of heavy rain driving its way quite quickly eastwards. some sunny skies behind, but some hefty thundery downpours into northern ireland and western scotland. and here the winds really ramping up through the afternoon. it's going to be a windy day for many places, but those gusts of 70—80 mph, perhaps a bit more across those western parts of scotland, so that is likely to bring travel disruption, coastal flooding, temperatures 12 to 18 degrees for most of us. now, as we head through sunday evening, you can see this area of low pressure passing to the north of scotland. still a real squeeze in those isobars. so, still some very windy and showery weather for a time. things slowly calming down on monday, although we do have the chance for some rain to push in across the south east of england. elsewhere, though, things looking drier, quieter and a bit calmer.

live from london, this is bbc news. the seaside home of the israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu is targeted in a drone strike from lebanon. there were no casualties, and the incident prompted him to issue a message of defiance. inside gaza, israeli air strikes reportedly kill 11 people in the al—maghazi refuguee camp in the centre of the strip. on friday, israeli air strikes killed 33 in the jabalia refugee camp, where israel says hamas is regrouping. questions for the metropolitan police over its handling of accusations made against mohamed al fayed. should the harrods owner have faced criminal charges before he died? donald trump and kamala harris both campaign in the key battleground state of michigan.

with just two weeks to the us presidential election, we'll have a special report from georgia liam payne's father reads tributes outside the hotel in argentina where the one direction star died. hello and welcome. israel says benjamin netanyahu's home in caesarea has been targeted in a drone strike from lebanon. a spokesman said neither the prime minister nor his wife were in the building at the time, and that there were no casualties. these pictures show police outside the building on saturday morning. mr netanyahu's office has just released this statement on the death of hamas leader yahya sinwar who was killed earlier this week. it's not clear if this was recorded before or after the attempted drone attack on his residence.

translation: two days ago, we eliminated -