whojoin us on who join us on the phone whojoin us on the phone in, the nation's phone in. it is basically this morning chris kaba. the car that he was in was linked to a shooting the previous evening. he didn't get out on request, he attempted to drive off and was shot. the family furious and devastated by the verdict, as are many people in black communities in london, and indeed elsewhere. here are their words. no family should endure the unimaginable grief. this decision shows his life and many others like him does not matter to their system. ourson does not matter to their system. our son deserved better. politicians are having

their say as well. one of the tory leadership candidates robertjenrick has described robert jenrick has described the robertjenrick has described the police officer concerned as a hero. mark rowley said no firearms officer sets out to end a life on their duty. armed officers bravely intervened not knowing the risks they face. it is a contentious area, a complex issue but they verdict of the durie was clear. we are hearing from you and please get in touch with us. we will hear as many of your voices as we can between now and ten o'clock. michael in birmingham, good morning, michael. goad good morning, michael. good morning- _ good morning, michael. good morning. what _ good morning, michael. good morning. what is _ good morning, michael. good morning. what is your - good morning, michael. good| morning. what is your reaction to this? is _ morning. what is your reaction to this? is a — morning. what is your reaction to this? is a general— morning. what is your reaction to this? is a general rule, - morning. what is your reaction to this? is a general rule, i - to this? is a general rule, i ut m to this? is a general rule, i put my faith _ to this? is a general rule, i put my faith injuries - to this? is a general rule, i i put my faith injuries because they are the only people that sit through all the evidence. even when you get extensive media coverage of cases like

this, the media are condensing things for your programme. as a general rule, juries will hear things or see things in the evidence that don't end up getting summarised by the media and they are the only ones who heard the evidence. the fact they reached a verdict in three hours made me probably think it was a case that they felt it was a case that they felt it was a case that they felt it was a clear enough decision, without being an easy decision to take. my big reaction is the previous caller was talking about disproportionality, stop and search, policing in london among the black communities. whilst at the same time being a reasonable verdict for the jury to reach, it can be two things at the same time. i didn't go through all of the evidence. thejury reach through all of the evidence. the jury reach that verdict and i think it should be respected, although accepting the jury

process is not infallible. having look at some of the video evidence, how the officers were moving around the car and how that was in relation to other cars, it strikes me is not the most controversial shooting you can imagine the police have been involved in. there have been lots of other shootings involving the police where you think, how did we get to that point? with this one, i think we should be able to see how we have ended up in a position with a firearms officer stood in front of a powerful car, trying to bring the car to a halt and reach the occupant, that safety means the only recourse they had... following on from what _ recourse they had... following on from what you _ recourse they had... following on from what you are - recourse they had... following on from what you are saying, i on from what you are saying, niles and david spencer and other goals coming up, following on from what michael says very eloquently, can you

imagine a situation, it was in a unanimous verdict and the points you make about institutional racism and disproportionality are well made and many will absolutely understand what you are saying. the evidence supports you. can you imagine, though, if you had been on thatjury, would you possibly have said, yes, not guilty, after sifting the evidence? and we don't know the racial make—up of the jury, or would you have been holding out one against 11? just would you have been holding out one against 11?— one against 11? just because my oinion is one against 11? just because my opinion is not — one against 11? just because my opinion is not popular— one against 11? just because my opinion is not popular doesn't . opinion is not popular doesn't mean — opinion is not popular doesn't mean it— opinion is not popular doesn't mean it is— opinion is not popular doesn't mean it is incorrect. i don't care — mean it is incorrect. i don't care how— mean it is incorrect. i don't care how many people, a billion people — care how many people, a billion people can say something, based on mym — people can say something, based on mym |— people can say something, based on m ~ ., , people can say something, based onm ~ ., , �* on my... i know, but i'm talking — on my... i know, but i'm talking purely _ on my... i know, but i'm talking purely on - on my... i know, but i'm talking purely on the - on my... i know, but i'm - talking purely on the evidence in that case as presented to you and the sifting thereof? here is my thought on this in generah _ here is my thought on this in generah i_ here is my thought on this in general. i personally, ifi here is my thought on this in general. i personally, if i was charging _ general. i personally, if i was charging this case, there probably would have been

manslaughter. i think setting it as — manslaughter. i think setting it as murder set the bar too high — it as murder set the bar too high and _ it as murder set the bar too high and made conviction unlikely. high and made conviction unlikely-— unlikely. malice of the forethought. - unlikely. malice of the forethought. i- unlikely. malice of the forethought. i think i unlikely. malice of the | forethought. i think we unlikely. malice of the - forethought. i think we would have been — forethought. i think we would have been here _ forethought. i think we would have been here either - forethought. i think we would have been here either way . forethought. i think we would | have been here either way but the key— have been here either way but the key thing is this, i must point — the key thing is this, i must point your— the key thing is this, i must point your listeners in the direction of a particular case of a — direction of a particular case of a gentleman who was a 32—year—old man from somerset. the police — 32—year—old man from somerset. the police went into his house and found _ the police went into his house and found literally an arsenal of guns. _ and found literally an arsenal of guns, an arsenal of guns, including— of guns, an arsenal of guns, including notes revealing he wanted _ including notes revealing he wanted to commit a mass shooting because he had an obsession with mass shooters. the police _ obsession with mass shooters. the police let him go to the bathroom summer and when he was in the _ bathroom summer and when he was in the bathroom of the bedroom, he shot— in the bathroom of the bedroom, he shot himself. then he came running — he shot himself. then he came running out of the actual bedroom with a gun, aimed at the police _ bedroom with a gun, aimed at the police officers. and the

police _ the police officers. and the police officers managed to neutralise the threat, not by killing — neutralise the threat, not by killing him but by neutralising him. — killing him but by neutralising him, performing first aid and he is— him, performing first aid and he is now— him, performing first aid and he is now serving a 37 year prison— he is now serving a 37 year prison sentence.— prison sentence. that is interesting _ prison sentence. that is interesting and - prison sentence. that is i interesting and important prison sentence. that is - interesting and important and gym in bridgend may be wants to address that situation about the approach of the police in this particular incident? good morning, what is your point this morning?— morning, what is your point this morning? good morning. i am 'ust this morning? good morning. i am just thinking, _ this morning? good morning. i am just thinking, why - this morning? good morning. i am just thinking, why didn't i am just thinking, why didn't the policejust back am just thinking, why didn't the police just back off in this situation? they had the guy trapped, the guy was in a car. he may or may not have had a gun but he wasn't going anywhere. so the police could have bought themselves some time just to stand off, reassess the situation, stand—off a safe distance that would have been safe for them and sit and wait and see what develops. i saw the body cam footage on the tv last night. the whole situation looked very

chaotic. but surely these guys, particularly firearms guys, would be trained in a situation like that, where they would have been told, just stand back, just see what develops, how it plays out. the situation has been mentioned a few times. of raul moat. they could have maybe brought a negotiator in that situation? ijust maybe brought a negotiator in that situation? i just feel that situation? i just feel that i wasn't going anywhere. he was in his car. gun or not, could they havejust he was in his car. gun or not, could they have just stood back, giving themselves some breathing space and assess the situation and gone from there? he didn't get out on request and attempted to drive off in the car that was linked to a shooting the previous evening. all of these things can a situation in a split second. i want to hear your experience

and the experience of shelley as a black woman. tell us about what it is like for you and the police. good morning and thank you for being here.— you for being here. good morning. _ you for being here. good morning, and _ you for being here. good morning, and thank- you for being here. good morning, and thank you | you for being here. good i morning, and thank you for having _ morning, and thank you for having me on. so, yes, i have had _ having me on. so, yes, i have had experiences with the police and i_ had experiences with the police and i do — had experiences with the police and i do feel that, from this particular— and i do feel that, from this particular incident, they also need — particular incident, they also need to— particular incident, they also need to learn and implement changes _ need to learn and implement changes. i appreciate that they do a _ changes. i appreciate that they do a difficultjob. in my experience, it's very frightening to get stopped by the police. i have had situations where i have had my child _ situations where i have had my child in— situations where i have had my child in the car, i have been stopped _ child in the car, i have been stopped by the police and the exchange of... the exchange that — exchange of... the exchange that takes place, you get this sense — that takes place, you get this sense of— that takes place, you get this sense of wanting to be, you know. — sense of wanting to be, you know, they are on a power trip and _ know, they are on a power trip and it— know, they are on a power trip and itiust _ know, they are on a power trip and itjust feels know, they are on a power trip and it just feels so oppressive. the only way to come — oppressive. the only way to come out _ oppressive. the only way to come out of that situation is

to really— come out of that situation is to really kowtow to them because if you don't, if you respond _ because if you don't, if you respond in any type of way that they— respond in any type of way that they perceive to be aggressive, then— they perceive to be aggressive, than the — they perceive to be aggressive, then the outcome is not going to he — then the outcome is not going to be good for you. either they will arrest _ to be good for you. either they will arrest you or do something. but they don't approach the situation in a way that is, — approach the situation in a way that is, let _ approach the situation in a way that is, let me talk to you like — that is, let me talk to you like a _ that is, let me talk to you like a fellow human being and wait _ like a fellow human being and wait for— like a fellow human being and wait for you to cause a problem before — wait for you to cause a problem before i— wait for you to cause a problem before i actually get into the mode — before i actually get into the mode of— before i actually get into the mode of i am the authority and you — mode of i am the authority and ou. .. , . , ., you... this reflects what we heard earlier _ you... this reflects what we heard earlier on _ you... this reflects what we heard earlier on unfeeling l you... this reflects what we l heard earlier on unfeeling you are in hostile territory. does this apply to black police officers as well? i this apply to black police officers as well? i haven't actually — officers as well? i haven't actually come _ officers as well? i haven't actually come across - officers as well? i haven't actually come across any| officers as well? i haven't - actually come across any black officers — actually come across any black officers but i think, i can't imagine _ officers but i think, i can't imagine that it would be that different. . , imagine that it would be that different.- i _ imagine that it would be that different.- i don't - different. really? i don't know, different. really? i don't know. i _ different. really? i don't know, i have _ different. really? i don't know, i have not - different. really? i don't know, i have not come l different. really? i don't- know, i have not come across any— know, i have not come across any black— know, i have not come across any black officers. all of my

encounters have been with white officers — encounters have been with white officers and i have left that situation, i haven't committed any crime... wi situation, i haven't committed any crime- - -— any crime... wi where you stepped? _ any crime... wi where you stepped? 50. _ any crime. .. wi where you stopped? so, i— any crime... wi where you stopped? so, iwas - any crime... wi where you | stopped? so, iwas driving any crime... wi where you - stopped? so, i was driving and the liuht stopped? so, i was driving and the light was — stopped? so, i was driving and the light was on, _ stopped? so, i was driving and the light was on, the _ stopped? so, i was driving and the light was on, the light - stopped? so, i was driving and the light was on, the light was | the light was on, the light was off. the light was on, the light was off so — the light was on, the light was off so we _ the light was on, the light was off. so we had forgotten to switch _ off. so we had forgotten to switch on our car lights, so we were _ switch on our car lights, so we were just _ switch on our car lights, so we were just going. usually people will let— were just going. usually people will let you know your lights are off — will let you know your lights are off by flashing you when you put— are off by flashing you when you put your lights on. that was — you put your lights on. that was the _ you put your lights on. that was the most recent one. and that— was the most recent one. and that exchange, i haven't committed a crime. yes, i should _ committed a crime. yes, i should have my light on at night — should have my light on at night but it is not a major thing _ night but it is not a major thing for— night but it is not a major thing for me to leave that situation feeling, that is a opportunity to build a relationship. it is an opportunity for the police to actually _ opportunity for the police to actually engage with civilian and say, _ actually engage with civilian and say, look, put your light on and — and say, look, put your light on and actually have... it's an opportunity to build that relationship but it didn't feel like that. you just come out and — like that. you just come out and you _ like that. you just come out and you feel like, oh, like

someone _ and you feel like, oh, like someone has really tried to oppress _ someone has really tried to oppress you and the only reason i oppress you and the only reason i got _ oppress you and the only reason i got out — oppress you and the only reason i got out of— oppress you and the only reason i got out of that, it was just escalating because my partner was in — escalating because my partner was in there and i had to step inand— was in there and i had to step in and kowtow myself to this officer — in and kowtow myself to this officerjust to get out of that situation _ officerjust to get out of that situation because my partner, as a _ situation because my partner, as a man. _ situation because my partner, as a man, was not about to let another— as a man, was not about to let another person... i as a man, was not about to let another person. . ._ another person... i love that ou another person... i love that you use _ another person... i love that you use the _ another person... i love that you use the word _ another person... i love that you use the word kowtow, i another person... i love that you use the word kowtow, ll another person... i love that - you use the word kowtow, i know exactly what you mean. you are not going to say, why the hell are you stopping me? you will be madam compliant.- are you stopping me? you will be madam compliant. yes, really compliant- _ be madam compliant. yes, really compliant. really, _ be madam compliant. yes, really compliant. really, sorry, - compliant. really, sorry, officer. _ compliant. really, sorry, officer, really lower your tone _ officer, really lower your tone. but not everyone can do that. _ tone. but not everyone can do that. it _ tone. but not everyone can do that. it is — tone. but not everyone can do that. it is like chris kaba in the — that. it is like chris kaba in the split— that. it is like chris kaba in the split second, perhaps he felt in — the split second, perhaps he felt in danger. who knows why he did — felt in danger. who knows why he did what he did but everyone in a split—second situation does _ in a split—second situation does not _ in a split—second situation does not necessarily do the right— does not necessarily do the right thing and the police need to learn— right thing and the police need to learn from this. when i text in i to learn from this. when i text in i spoke _ to learn from this. when i text in i spoke about another case, where — in i spoke about another case, where he _ in i spoke about another case, where he was tracked and

tracked _ where he was tracked and tracked and had several opportunities to be stopped but they waited for him to get on a train _ they waited for him to get on a train before they shot him. so they— train before they shot him. so they don't— train before they shot him. so they don't always make the right— they don't always make the right decision. and they need to learn— right decision. and they need to learn from this. the fact it is always— to learn from this. the fact it is always the black person that seems — is always the black person that seems to— is always the black person that seems to represent the most danger, — seems to represent the most danger, this is something they need _ danger, this is something they need to— danger, this is something they need to be really aware of because _ need to be really aware of because feeling fear is not an excuse — because feeling fear is not an excuse for someone to just end ”p excuse for someone to just end up dying — excuse for someone to just end up dying. that is not... i up dying. that is not... would like up dying. that is not... i would like you to stay there because it is such a valuable call. we will listen to richard and david in a second as well. we have ray in belfast coming up. thank you for so many people, to so many people vote getting in touch. david, a former met police officer, i will get you to respond there and also richard in south—east london, what is your reaction to this case, richard? we have just lost richard... david

spencer, former met officer. you heard our caller and perhaps a mother —— some other callers, what would you say? good morning. any death in these circumstances is tragic and i have no doubt the police officers involved in this operation, this is the last way they would have wished for this operation to have concluded. unfortunately, the circumstances of this incident mean it simply was not possible for the officers to stand back in the way... for the officers to stand back in the way. . ._ in the way... that is 'ust not true. it is h in the way... that is 'ust not true. it is true, _ in the way... that is 'ust not true. it is true, i'm _ in the way... that isjust not true. it is true, i'm afraid. i true. it is true, i'm afraid. it is true. it is true, i'm afraid. it is not- _ true. it is true, i'm afraid. it is not. the _ true. it is true, i'm afraid. it is not. the reality - true. it is true, i'm afraid. it is not. the reality of - true. it is true, i'm afraid. i it is not. the reality of the context — it is not. the reality of the context here _ it is not. the reality of the context here is _ it is not. the reality of the context here is there - it is not. the reality of the context here is there was| it is not. the reality of the | context here is there was a shooting the previous night, which this vehicle is linked to, a firearm had not been recovered. you have to remember, this incident happened in a dense residential street. there are houses and flats all over this place,

there could have been anyone walking down the road. the idea that in this context with the vehicle moving in the aggressive way it was that officers could simply stand back and leave this i'm afraid it's just not acceptable. we have to remember... it'sjust not acceptable. we have to remember. . .- it'sjust not acceptable. we have to remember... this is the ower have to remember... this is the power of — have to remember... this is the power of boogie _ have to remember... this is the power of boogie men _ have to remember... this is the power of boogie men and - power of boogie men and nightmares. _ power of boogie men and nightmares. i— power of boogie men and nightmares. i pointed- power of boogie men and i nightmares. i pointed out, power of boogie men and - nightmares. i pointed out, as with— nightmares. i pointed out, as with read. _ nightmares. i pointed out, as with read. it _ nightmares. i pointed out, as with read, it was _ nightmares. i pointed out, as with read, it was a _ nightmares. i pointed out, as with read, it was a lot - nightmares. i pointed out, as with read, it was a lot more l with read, it was a lot more intense, _ with read, it was a lot more intense, a _ with read, it was a lot more intense, a lot— with read, it was a lot more intense, a lot more - with read, it was a lot more intense, a lot more scary. i with read, it was a lot more i intense, a lot more scary. but he lived — intense, a lot more scary. but he lived to _ intense, a lot more scary. but he lived to serve _ intense, a lot more scary. but he lived to serve a _ intense, a lot more scary. but he lived to serve a sentence. i he lived to serve a sentence. raul — he lived to serve a sentence. raul moat _ he lived to serve a sentence. raul moat lived _ he lived to serve a sentence. raul moat lived and - he lived to serve a sentence. raul moat lived and took - he lived to serve a sentence. raul moat lived and took his| raul moat lived and took his own— raul moat lived and took his own life _ raul moat lived and took his own life in _ raul moat lived and took his own life in the _ raul moat lived and took his own life in the situation. - raul moat lived and took his i own life in the situation. what we are — own life in the situation. what we are seeing— own life in the situation. what we are seeing in— own life in the situation. what we are seeing in the _ own life in the situation. what| we are seeing in the situations increasingly. _ we are seeing in the situations increasingly. as— we are seeing in the situations increasingly, as your— we are seeing in the situations increasingly, as your caller- we are seeing in the situations increasingly, as your caller is i increasingly, as your caller is pointing _ increasingly, as your caller is pointing out, _ increasingly, as your caller is pointing out, the _ increasingly, as your caller is pointing out, the limitless i pointing out, the limitless imagination— pointing out, the limitless imagination of— pointing out, the limitless imagination of scenarios l pointing out, the limitless - imagination of scenarios makes anything — imagination of scenarios makes anything justifiable. _ imagination of scenarios makes anything justifiable. because i anything justifiable. because again. — anything justifiable. because again. it's _ anythingjustifiable. because again, it's effectively, - anythingjustifiable. because again, it's effectively, if- anythingjustifiable. because again, it's effectively, if you| again, it's effectively, if you canjust _ again, it's effectively, if you canjust point _ again, it's effectively, if you canjust point together- again, it's effectively, if you can just point together a - can just point together a scenario. _ canjust point together a scenario, backed - canjust point together a scenario, backed up - canjust point together a scenario, backed up by. can just point together a i scenario, backed up by the respectability— scenario, backed up by the respectability and - scenario, backed up by the| respectability and authority that — respectability and authority

that being _ respectability and authority that being a _ respectability and authority that being a police - respectability and authority that being a police officer. respectability and authorityl that being a police officer or being — that being a police officer or being trusted _ that being a police officer or being trusted by— that being a police officer or being trusted by the - that being a police officer or being trusted by the state i being trusted by the state encounters _ being trusted by the state encounters upon - being trusted by the state encounters upon you, - being trusted by the state encounters upon you, you being trusted by the state - encounters upon you, you pretty much — encounters upon you, you pretty much have — encounters upon you, you pretty much have a — encounters upon you, you pretty much have a licence _ encounters upon you, you pretty much have a licence to - encounters upon you, you pretty much have a licence to kill- encounters upon you, you pretty much have a licence to kill it. much have a licence to kill if you — much have a licence to kill if you are _ much have a licence to kill if you are not _ much have a licence to kill if you are not cavva... - much have a licence to kill if you are not cavva... [- much have a licence to kill if you are not cawa...- much have a licence to kill if you are not cawa... i may be riaht you are not cawa... i may be right or — you are not cawa... i may be right or wrong _ you are not cawa... i may be right or wrong but _ you are not cawa... i may be right or wrong but in - you are not cawa... i may be right or wrong but in the - you are not cawa... i may bei right or wrong but in the raul moat case, he had killed a police officer. i cannot imagine the police officer for whatever reason going easy on him. you know what police feel when one of their own has that i've taken. wait a when one of their own has that i've taken. waita minute, everybody. i need to get some other voices on. with huge respect. ray in belfast in a second but david, come back on that. ~ ., �* , ., that. we don't 'ust need to rel on that. we don't 'ust need to rely on the — that. we don'tjust need to rely on the potential- rely on the potential scenarios, as important as that is, we can look at the data. in the year to march 2024, armed officers in england and wales were deployed on 17,589 armed operations and they discharged

their firearms on two occasions. that is less orjust about 0.01% of arm deployments in this country led to a firearm... in this country led to a firearm. . ._ firearm... extreme circumstances, - firearm... extreme - circumstances, obviously. so why this occasion, why didn't they... a lot of people are saying coming into us, obviously a divisive issue but lots saying why didn't they shoot the tires or de—escalate the situation? shoot the tires or de-escalate the situation?— shoot the tires or de-escalate the situation? you had seen the body worn _ the situation? you had seen the body worn video _ the situation? you had seen the body worn video and _ the situation? you had seen the body worn video and it - the situation? you had seen the body worn video and it has - the situation? you had seen the body worn video and it has been in the news over the last 12 hours since the jury verdict came back. shooting the tyres is simply not a realistic option. this is a highly dangerous moment. you have to remember that a car in itself in the wrong hands and in the wrong circumstances can be a weapon. it is only a couple of years ago that we remember pc andrew harper in thames valley police who was tragically killed by someone driving a vehicle. so the reality of the

situation is, i'm afraid, tragic as it is, that in these very few occasions where it is necessary, police officers simply have no choice but to take this level of force and tragic as that is, that is the reality. i tragic as that is, that is the reali . ., ~' tragic as that is, that is the reali . ., ,, ., ., reality. i would like to hear the response _ reality. i would like to hear the response of— reality. i would like to hear the response of shelly, - reality. i would like to hear the response of shelly, a l reality. i would like to hear- the response of shelly, a black woman who has been stopped by the police. go on, shelly. i the police. go on, shelly. i think the previous caller said about— think the previous caller said about the houses and anyone could — about the houses and anyone could have been walking by. all the more — could have been walking by. all the more reason for the police not to— the more reason for the police not to have created that hard to stop — not to have created that hard to stop and used alternative ways — to stop and used alternative ways of— to stop and used alternative ways of trying to apprehend this person, without creating that — this person, without creating that immense danger. yes, the car was — that immense danger. yes, the car was involved in something but i — car was involved in something but i think... you can say everything was really dangerous and use — everything was really dangerous and use that as a reason to take — and use that as a reason to take someone's life. but maybe they need — take someone's life. but maybe they need to learn that these

hard — they need to learn that these hard stops, they create a lot of danger, you know? do they need — of danger, you know? do they need to— of danger, you know? do they need to do that no a residential road like that, like — residential road like that, like your previous caller was saying — like your previous caller was saying and trying to justify why— saying and trying to justify why they had to kill this man? did they— why they had to kill this man? did they need to do that hard stop— did they need to do that hard stop there? it is always, yes, they— stop there? it is always, yes, they hardly discharge force but why is — they hardly discharge force but why is it — they hardly discharge force but why is it always that minority people — why is it always that minority people have all these outcomes? if i people have all these outcomes? if i can, _ people have all these outcomes? if i can, one of the key aspects of the law here, and i think it is important because thatis think it is important because that is what the jury will have been referring to and the judge would have directed them towards. the criminal act says and the law recognises that in these situations, which are fraught, dangerous, very, very concerning. there had been a shooting the previous night in

the firearm had not been recovered. the law does say police officers must or can use reasonable force to prevent crime but also that precise niceties of the of the situation, the law recognises it is just not realistic to be able to do the sorts of things that some of your callers are suggesting. that some of your callers are suggesting-— that some of your callers are suggesting. 0k. .. let's go to ra in suggesting. 0k. .. let's go to ray in belfast. _ suggesting. 0k. .. let's go to ray in belfast. we _ suggesting. 0k. .. let's go to ray in belfast. we have - suggesting. 0k. .. let's go to ray in belfast. we have seen them do these _ ray in belfast. we have seen them do these opposing - ray in belfast. we have seen i them do these opposing niceties in other— them do these opposing niceties in other cases that is the point _ in other cases that is the point. they are capable of, when — point. they are capable of, when there is danger, of calming _ when there is danger, of calming down and assessing the situation — calming down and assessing the situation and taking different action~ — situation and taking different action. �* . situation and taking different action. . ., ., , action. and had that been possible _ action. and had that been possible in _ action. and had that been possible in this _ action. and had that been possible in this case... i action. and had that been i possible in this case... let's no to possible in this case... let's go to ray — possible in this case... let's go to ray in _ possible in this case... let's go to ray in belfast. - possible in this case... let's go to ray in belfast. in - possible in this case... let's go to ray in belfast. in the. go to ray in belfast. in the heat of our argument it was a fact the police officer david rathbone had been blinded by raul moat but later went on to take his own life but sadly the police had a fury in that

situation. mark, good morning, what is your point this morning?— what is your point this morninu? , , , , morning? just very simple. the olice, morning? just very simple. the police. they _ morning? just very simple. the police, they were _ morning? just very simple. the police, they were clearly - police, they were clearly identifiable _ police, they were clearly identifiable as _ police, they were clearly identifiable as police. i police, they were clearly. identifiable as police. you could _ identifiable as police. you could hear— identifiable as police. you could hear shouts - identifiable as police. you could hear shouts of - identifiable as police. youi could hear shouts of show identifiable as police. you - could hear shouts of show me your— could hear shouts of show me your hand. _ could hear shouts of show me your hand, stop. _ could hear shouts of show me your hand, stop. if— could hear shouts of show me your hand, stop. if he - could hear shouts of show me your hand, stop. if he had - your hand, stop. if he had complied _ your hand, stop. if he had complied and _ your hand, stop. if he had complied and followed - your hand, stop. if he had| complied and followed the your hand, stop. if he had - complied and followed the very clear— complied and followed the very clear instructions, _ complied and followed the very clear instructions, he _ complied and followed the very clear instructions, he would - clear instructions, he would still— clear instructions, he would still be _ clear instructions, he would still be alive. _ clear instructions, he would still be alive.— clear instructions, he would still be alive. ray in belfast, follow on — still be alive. ray in belfast, follow on from _ still be alive. ray in belfast, follow on from that - still be alive. ray in belfast, follow on from that point. i still be alive. ray in belfast, i follow on from that point. good morninu. follow on from that point. good morning- i _ follow on from that point. good morning. i find _ follow on from that point. good morning. i find it _ follow on from that point. good morning. i find it very - follow on from that point. good morning. i find it very hard - follow on from that point. good morning. i find it very hard to i morning. i find it very hard to understand the arguments going back and forth her. i actually grew up in the troubles and i have seen many killings. on the point about people saying could the police not have shot his tyres? unfortunately, tyres ? u nfortu nately, condolences to tyres? unfortunately, condolences to chris kaba's family. but this vehicle had been involved in a crime and a firearm was involved. they told the guy to stop. they went by

the guy to stop. they went by the book and unfortunately, the policeman who shot this guy, chris kaba, was protecting his own colleagues who had been rammed by this car. now the problem is here in belfast, someone said about shooting the tyres. this was carried out many years back in belfast, the tyres of a vehicle carrying people with guns was slowed down. unfortunately, shooting at the car, it crashed into a lady and her children. the police did everything in their power to stop this guy. he was asked to stop. he rammed everything. unfortunately, he lost his life. now the policeman had a very quick decision to make in that moment. decision to make in that moment-— decision to make in that moment. ., , ., ., moment. that is what we are talkin: moment. that is what we are talking about. _ moment. that is what we are talking about. thank - moment. that is what we are talking about. thank you - moment. that is what we are talking about. thank you for l talking about. thank you for laying the out and thank you for reminding us of that giving us the context and mark likewise. now akin from

peckham. likewise. now akin from peckham— likewise. now akin from peckham. thank you. the situation _ peckham. thank you. the situation is _ peckham. thank you. the situation is such - peckham. thank you. the situation is such that - peckham. thank you. the situation is such that we i peckham. thank you. the i situation is such that we are wondering if... these are trained _ wondering if... these are trained police officers. they are trained in firearms. i will call— are trained in firearms. i will call them _ are trained in firearms. i will call them sharpshooters, whatever. they had the whole body — whatever. they had the whole body to — whatever. they had the whole body to shoot at, why the head? they— body to shoot at, why the head? they could — body to shoot at, why the head? they could have shot at the body, — they could have shot at the body, they could have shot at the arms _ body, they could have shot at the arms or legs. mind you, this— the arms or legs. mind you, this man _ the arms or legs. mind you, this man... chris was driving. why— this man... chris was driving. why did — this man... chris was driving. why did they think he was holding _ why did they think he was holding any firearms to shoot at them? _ holding any firearms to shoot at them? they could have shot at them? they could have shot at the — at them? they could have shot at the body, not the head. this is a valid question. _ at the body, not the head. try 3 is a valid question. we have someone to answer it, michael in london, retired police

officer, firearms trained. akin in peckham asks a valid and pertinent question, why shoot him in the head, michael? that is very difficult. _ him in the head, michael? that is very difficult. the _ him in the head, michael? trust is very difficult. the officer at the time knew what he was doing and when you are shooting at the body, when we were trained it was called the engine room, the heart that we were trained to fire at. but you had seconds, literally seconds to make that decision and it's very sad what happened to the lad, being killed and everything. but not all police are racist. the other thing, my children are mixed—race. so when i was in thejob, my wife obviously, it was quite unusual. my father was from dublin. so you had that as well. so i was compounded with racism and also the irish connection. that is forgotten about now. but if you

remember... about now. but if you remember. . .- about now. but if you remember... , , remember... yes, i remember religious _ remember... yes, i remember religious bigotry _ remember... yes, i remember religious bigotry absolutely. i religious bigotry absolutely. it was interesting hearing from ryan belfast making parallels with that situation. h0 ryan belfast making parallels with that situation. no blacks, no irish- -- _ with that situation. no blacks, no irish... absolutely. - no irish... absolutely. michael. _ no irish... absolutely. michael, your - no irish... absolutely. michael, your point, i no irish... absolutely. i michael, your point, akin no irish... absolutely. - michael, your point, akin in peckham, come back on that. a split second decision, akin? brute split second decision, akin? we appreciate that maybe the situations police officers are in, especially this kind of situation and, yes, split—second decisions have to be made _ split—second decisions have to be made. they have to shoot to protect — be made. they have to shoot to protect not only themselves but also all — protect not only themselves but also all the lives around. but, i also all the lives around. but, i still— also all the lives around. but, i still think, you know, they could — i still think, you know, they could have shot at the body. they— could have shot at the body. they could have shot at the body, — they could have shot at the body, not the head, that's what i body, not the head, that's what i think —

body, not the head, that's what i think. �* body, not the head, that's what ithink. . ., �*, ., i think. and that's what we want to hear. _ i think. and that's what we want to hear. shelly, - i think. and that's what we want to hear. shelly, do i i think. and that's what we i want to hear. shelly, do you want to hear. shelly, do you want to hear. shelly, do you want to come back on that? a split second decision? i appreciate a split—second decision but i think it goes back to the training overall because we are human and people make mistakes but that goes for chris as well as the officer. you with making, chris was making a split second... because it makes no sense. it makes no sense the reaction that he gave. i wondered whether he was just panicking and just kind of mismanaged the driving. i don't know... i have seen the video, it was very chaotic and i don't think it was managed in the most... it didn't seem like... was managed in the most... it didn't seem like. . ._ didn't seem like... can you understand _ didn't seem like... can you understand being - didn't seem like... can you understand being in - didn't seem like... can you understand being in that i understand being in that situation with experience as a black person living in london of the police, whatever are

other factors are there, you would panic and think you have to get out of there? {th would panic and think you have to get out of there?— to get out of there? of course ou to get out of there? of course you would _ to get out of there? of course you would panic, _ to get out of there? of course you would panic, i _ to get out of there? of course you would panic, i would - to get out of there? of course | you would panic, i would panic you would panic, iwould panic if the police stopped me and i hadn't done anything wrong. it isjust hadn't done anything wrong. it is just that experience. from that experience, you know what you are about to go through. it is an unpleasant experience and a lot of young men have been so badly treated by the police. i don't know anything about this kid... i don't know anything about this kid... ~ , ,., , kid... i get it. absolutely, thank you _ kid... i get it. absolutely, thank you for _ kid... i get it. absolutely, thank you for saying - kid... i get it. absolutely, thank you for saying that. | thank you for saying that. whatever else, it is a visceral reaction, an instinctive reaction. thank you very much for watching this. you leave us now. hello again. we've got a band of cloud and showery rain pushing south eastwards across england and wales this morning. this is the weather front responsible for it. as it bumps into the high pressure, it will continue to fizzle. you can see two still quite gusty winds across the far north of scotland.

so this afternoon, as the weather front arrives in the south east, it won't be bringing you much more than a band of cloud in the odd shower. the showers easing across the north, and then it's a largely dry day for the bulk of the country, with some sunny intervals and temperatures ranging from 10 to about 17 degrees. now, as we head through the evening and overnight, eventually the weather front pulls away, we'll see some thick fog develop across england and wales, particularly the southern half of the country. and then we're looking at more cloud coming in across northern ireland and scotland with some rain and that is pushing northwards. temperatures falling away between 6 and 11. so we start with the dense fog in the morning. it will be slow to clear the southeast, could linger right the way through the course of the morning, then a lot of dry weather, but still more cloud coming in across scotland and northern ireland, tending to break up as we go through the course of the afternoon. temperatures 13 to 17 degrees north to south. as we head through the week wednesday into thursday, you can see a weather front

trying to come in. it's coming up against the area of high pressure. but look at those isobars once again. so, we start off on thursday with a fair bit of dry weather. the cloud building in from the west could produce a few showers. the winds are going to strengthen ahead of the weather front coming in, in the west, and then we will see some rain. temperatures 12 to about 17 degrees. that rain will continue to journey eastwards as we go through thursday night. here's the weather front bearing it, this cold front, but look how it all curls around, back in through parts of scotland, northern ireland, northern england and wales. so here's our first weather front pushing into the north sea. here's that curl i was talking about, bringing in some rain. but in between, there'll be some brighter skies, even some glimpses of sunshine. temperatures, 11 to about 15 or 16 degrees. and then as we head on into the weekend, well, it is looking like it's going to be unsettled with some wintry showers

in the hills of scotland.

live from london. this is bbc news israel intensifies its aerial assault on lebanon — at least 13 people are killed in a strike next to the country's biggest hospital. the us secretary of state arrives in israel as antony blinken tries once again to revive hopes of a ceasefire. here, thejustice secretary admits the government will run of prison places again — as more than 1,000 inmates are released early to try and ease overcrowding. world leaders arrive in kazan for the brics summit of emerging economies which the kremlin says highlights the failure of the west to isolate russia. and king charles ends his tour of australia with a visit to sydney harbour to view the country's fleet.