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kamala harris brands her rival donald trump a fascist after his former chief of staff claimed mr trump had praised hitler and admires dictators. will it have any impact on the election? good evening. welcome to newsnight for insight and interviews. 13 days to go until the polls close in the race for the white house and today, this man, a former general who worked for

donald trump when he was president, for 18 months, running the white house as trump's chief of staff, has chosen to speak to the new york times and the atlantic to say that he believes mr trump meets the definition of a fascist and he believes trump would govern as a dictator. so is trump a potential threat to america democracy? mr trump's spokesman said the reports were false and inaccurate. nick fill us in. that is not alljohn kelly said, and he revealed on numerous occasions when he worked for donald trump during his presidency, that he said hitler did some good things. we have had a pretty speedy reaction to that, on a pretty extraordinary day, with the vice president standing up in washington and says that donald trump is becoming increasingly unhinged and unstable, kamala harris said. essentially saying that her rival for the presidency, said. essentially saying that her rivalfor the presidency, her incredulity that he should invoke

adolf hitler, so this is what the vice president had to say... anyone who refuses to bend a knee or dares to criticise him would qualify, in his mind, as the enemy within. likejudges, likejournalists, like nonpartisan election officials. it is deeply troubling and incredibly dangerous that donald trump would invoke adolf hitler, the man who was responsible for the deaths of 6 million jews and hundreds of thousands of americans. that is kamala harris tonight. let's go back, how did we get to this point? go back, how did we get to this oint? ., . ., point? some of the remarks on the john kell point? some of the remarks on the john kelly date _ point? some of the remarks on the john kelly date back _ point? some of the remarks on the john kelly date back a _ point? some of the remarks on the john kelly date back a few- point? some of the remarks on the john kelly date back a few years i john kelly date back a few years ago, there was a book in which he made the remarks about what donald trump allegedly said about adolf hitler, but his intervention in the last few days dates back a few weeks

when donald trump said if he becomes president again, he would be prepared to use the national guard and the military against what he describes as the enemy within. 50 thatis describes as the enemy within. 50 that is american citizens. john kelly said when he left the white housein kelly said when he left the white house in 2019, his view was that he would not speak on the record unless donald trump said something that was so outrageous he felt he needed to speak out, and he said the bar was met so we are speaking out. he talked in the interview with the new york times that when donald trump was president, he said we should use troops against the enemy within, and the former marine general said you cannot do that, that is not the american way of doing things, and donald trump said, because you have got to do that, and as general kelly said he does not understand the constitution of the united states. general kelly told the new york times that donald trump has met the definition of a fascist and he looked it up online and said it is a

far right authoritarian, someone who is characterised, administration characterised by a dictatorial leader. this is whatjohn kelly had to say to the new york times. but certainly the former president is in the far right area, _ certainly an authoritarian. admires people who are dictators, he has said that. _ so he certainly falls - into the general definition of fascist, for sure. what is the response from donald trump this evening? a, what is the response from donald trump this evening?— what is the response from donald trump this evening? a pretty strong resonse. trump this evening? a pretty strong response- a — trump this evening? a pretty strong response. a spokesperson _ trump this evening? a pretty strong response. a spokesperson for - trump this evening? a pretty strong | response. a spokesperson for donald trump says thejohn kelly account is a debunked story and he says that john kelly has embarrassed himself stop donald trump has been speaking

at a question—and—answer session in the swing state of georgia and he was not specifically asked about what general kelly had said but he was asked how do you cope with being vilified so much and this is what the former president had to say. i the former president had to say. i will say this, i have been investigated more than any human being. _ investigated more than any human being. i_ investigated more than any human being, i suspect, investigated more than any human being, isuspect, in investigated more than any human being, i suspect, in the history of our country. _ being, i suspect, in the history of our country, more than al capone, commonly— our country, more than al capone, commonly known as scarface, and i have been_ commonly known as scarface, and i have been investigated more than scarface. — have been investigated more than scarface, and my father is looking down _ scarface, and my father is looking down from — scarface, and my father is looking down from heaven, and i think my father_ down from heaven, and i think my father is_ down from heaven, and i think my father is in— down from heaven, and i think my father is in heaven, i know my mother— father is in heaven, i know my mother ism _ father is in heaven, i know my mother is... but my father was great — mother is... but my father was great he — mother is... but my father was great. he was a great guy but a strong _ great. he was a great guy but a strong guy. but you know, it makes you stronger, i have been, and the fact i_ you stronger, i have been, and the fact i have — you stronger, i have been, and the fact i have such backing from the public, _ fact i have such backing from the public, these scoundrels came after me, public, these scoundrels came after me. it _ public, these scoundrels came after me. it is _ public, these scoundrels came after me, it is called election interference, the weaponisation of the fbi. _ interference, the weaponisation of the fbi, they were all coming, and

we are _ the fbi, they were all coming, and we are going to get things turned around _ we are going to get things turned around in — we are going to get things turned around in this country because it is so had _ around in this country because it is so bad. . . , around in this country because it is so bad. . . , so bad. that was donald trump toniaht. let's introduce you to our panelists this evening — ben ansell, professor of politics at the university of oxford and host of radio 4's rethink. jo swinson, who was lib dem leader. and michelle donelan, former conservative science and technology secretary. and we're joined by faisal, who's in washington. ben, what you make ofjohn kelly's intervention? in ben, what you make ofjohn kelly's intervention?— intervention? in a way, he is not tellin: intervention? in a way, he is not telling peeple — intervention? in a way, he is not telling people anything - intervention? in a way, he is not telling people anything that - intervention? in a way, he is not telling people anything that if i intervention? in a way, he is not l telling people anything that if they are spending a lot of time reading about donald trump, that they don't already know, and much of this was already know, and much of this was already out, but it is the timing of the intervention that is important, and what he said, in people said take donald trump seriously but not literally, butjohn kelly is saying we should take him literally as well

because if there are people like me, if there aren't people like the previous head of thejoint chiefs of staff who has also called donald trump a fascist, and mark s beckham if we are not there, there may be all the things that donald trump says are things that he would do. you have been in pennsylvania, talking to lots of voters, and i wonder how they will be affected if at all by these comments regarding donald trump from john kelly, faisal? ~ . . , , . faisal? we hear about this being a knife edae faisal? we hear about this being a knife edge election, _ faisal? we hear about this being a knife edge election, 50-50, - faisal? we hear about this being a knife edge election, 50-50, and l faisal? we hear about this being a. knife edge election, 50-50, and my knife edge election, 50—50, and my impression — knife edge election, 50—50, and my impression from looking at the polling — impression from looking at the polling and talking to opinion formers _ polling and talking to opinion formers who had got access to people who have _ formers who had got access to people who have gone to the swing states, and also _ who have gone to the swing states, and also the voters in pennsylvania yesterday. — and also the voters in pennsylvania yesterday, the knife edge is leaning towards _ yesterday, the knife edge is leaning towards the former president of donald — towards the former president of donald trump, which does not mean it is a done _ donald trump, which does not mean it is a done deal but that is the sense you get _ is a done deal but that is the sense you get. when you hear that clip from _ you get. when you hear that clip from john— you get. when you hear that clip from john kelly, and that is his former—

from john kelly, and that is his former chief of staff, that spent 18 months _ former chief of staff, that spent 18 months by his side, a pretty solid source _ months by his side, a pretty solid source on — months by his side, a pretty solid source on anyjournalistic grade, and it— source on anyjournalistic grade, and it sounds shocking but the question— and it sounds shocking but the question is whether he has lost the ability— question is whether he has lost the ability to— question is whether he has lost the ability to shock a key portion of the us— ability to shock a key portion of the us electorate who have factored it in. the us electorate who have factored it in if— the us electorate who have factored it in. if there was one archetype of an american— it in. if there was one archetype of an american voter that i met in pennsylvania yesterday, that you keep _ pennsylvania yesterday, that you keep hearing about when you talk to the people who have wider resources to get— the people who have wider resources to get around america, it is the people — to get around america, it is the people who say, yes, donald trump is flawed, _ people who say, yes, donald trump is flawed, hutm — people who say, yes, donald trump is flawed, but... and that is key, we are hearing — flawed, but... and that is key, we are hearing a _ flawed, but... and that is key, we are hearing a lot of people suggesting that, which is why when you talk— suggesting that, which is why when you talk to — suggesting that, which is why when you talk to the people with the probabilities, what is 50—50 might now he _ probabilities, what is 50—50 might now be more 55—45 in favour of donald — now be more 55—45 in favour of donald trump, maybe 60—40, and it depends— donald trump, maybe 60—40, and it depends on— donald trump, maybe 60—40, and it depends on turnout and what people think on— depends on turnout and what people think on polling day and who gets to send the _ think on polling day and who gets to send the votes in, we cannot be sure of anything. — send the votes in, we cannot be sure of anything, but that is the direction _ of anything, but that is the direction of travel, a move towards harris _ direction of travel, a move towards harris when — direction of travel, a move towards harris when she replaced joe biden, and a _

harris when she replaced joe biden, and a further move after the single debate _ and a further move after the single debate between them, but now things have moved back in the direction of donald _ have moved back in the direction of donald trump. jo have moved back in the direction of donald trump-— donald trump. jo swinson and michelle donelan, _ donald trump. jo swinson and michelle donelan, do - donald trump. jo swinson and michelle donelan, do you - donald trump. jo swinson and| michelle donelan, do you think donald trump is a potential threat to democracy?— donald trump is a potential threat todemocra ? , ., to democracy? yes. you can take him at his word — to democracy? yes. you can take him at his word in — to democracy? yes. you can take him at his word in that _ to democracy? yes. you can take him at his word in that sense. _ to democracy? yes. you can take him at his word in that sense. we - to democracy? yes. you can take him at his word in that sense. we can - at his word in that sense. we can look— at his word in that sense. we can look at _ at his word in that sense. we can look at his— at his word in that sense. we can look at his past— at his word in that sense. we can look at his past behaviour- at his word in that sense. we can look at his past behaviour and . at his word in that sense. we can . look at his past behaviour and what he said _ look at his past behaviour and what he said after— look at his past behaviour and what he said after the _ look at his past behaviour and what he said after the last _ look at his past behaviour and what he said after the last election, - he said after the last election, when — he said after the last election, when he — he said after the last election, when he lost, _ he said after the last election, when he lost, and _ he said after the last election, when he lost, and he - he said after the last election, when he lost, and he refusedi he said after the last election, i when he lost, and he refused to accept _ when he lost, and he refused to accept the — when he lost, and he refused to accept the result _ when he lost, and he refused to accept the result of that - when he lost, and he refused to. accept the result of that election. he made — accept the result of that election. he made statements _ accept the result of that election. he made statements that - accept the result of that election. he made statements that his - he made statements that his supporters— he made statements that his supporters to _ he made statements that his supporters to march - he made statements that his supporters to march on - he made statements that his i supporters to march on capitol he made statements that his - supporters to march on capitol hill and we _ supporters to march on capitol hill and we saw— supporters to march on capitol hill and we saw the _ supporters to march on capitol hill and we saw the massive _ supporters to march on capitol hill and we saw the massive threat - supporters to march on capitol hill and we saw the massive threat toi and we saw the massive threat to american democracy— and we saw the massive threat to american democracy with - and we saw the massive threat to american democracy with the - and we saw the massive threat to i american democracy with the rioting on the _ american democracy with the rioting on the 6th— american democracy with the rioting on the 6th of— american democracy with the rioting on the 6th ofjanuary. _ american democracy with the rioting on the 6th ofjanuary. we _ american democracy with the rioting on the 6th ofjanuary. we already i on the 6th ofjanuary. we already knew he — on the 6th ofjanuary. we already knew he was _ on the 6th ofjanuary. we already knew he was a _ on the 6th ofjanuary. we already knew he was a threat _ on the 6th ofjanuary. we already knew he was a threat to - on the 6th ofjanuary. we already i knew he was a threat to democracy and this— knew he was a threat to democracy and this really— knew he was a threat to democracy and this really reinforces _ knew he was a threat to democracy and this really reinforces that, - knew he was a threat to democracy and this really reinforces that, as l and this really reinforces that, as has been — and this really reinforces that, as has been said _ and this really reinforces that, as has been said with _ and this really reinforces that, as has been said with the _ and this really reinforces that, as has been said with the credibility| has been said with the credibility of somebody— has been said with the credibility of somebody who _ has been said with the credibility of somebody who knows - has been said with the credibility- of somebody who knows him incredibly well. of somebody who knows him incredibly weii~ wiii— of somebody who knows him incredibly weii~ will that — of somebody who knows him incredibly well. will that make _ of somebody who knows him incredibly well. will that make a _ of somebody who knows him incredibly well. will that make a difference? - well. will that make a difference? that is _ well. will that make a difference? that is the — well. will that make a difference? that is the key— well. will that make a difference? that is the key question. - well. will that make a difference? that is the key question. so - well. will that make a difference? that is the key question. so manyi that is the key question. so many peopie _ that is the key question. so many peopie and — that is the key question. so many

peopie and so— that is the key question. so many people and so much— that is the key question. so many people and so much evidence - that is the key question. so many. people and so much evidence already of how— people and so much evidence already of how unfit _ people and so much evidence already of how unfit donald _ people and so much evidence already of how unfit donald trump _ people and so much evidence already of how unfit donald trump is - people and so much evidence already of how unfit donald trump is to - of how unfit donald trump is to govern— of how unfit donald trump is to govern and _ of how unfit donald trump is to govern and yet _ of how unfit donald trump is to govern and yet it _ of how unfit donald trump is to govern and yet it is _ of how unfit donald trump is to govern and yet it is still- of how unfit donald trump is to govern and yet it is still a - of how unfit donald trump is to govern and yet it is still a very. govern and yet it is still a very close — govern and yet it is still a very close election. _ govern and yet it is still a very close election.— govern and yet it is still a very close election. , . ., , . close election. these comments are horrific if he — close election. these comments are horrific if he did make _ close election. these comments are horrific if he did make them - close election. these comments are horrific if he did make them but - close election. these comments are horrific if he did make them but do i horrific if he did make them but do not forget, they are denied and they are by one individual person, and he has already been president once, so the premise of whether he is a threat to democracy, i find that a bit odd, and this is fundamentally a decision for the american public. they have a choice as to whether they elect donald trump again as a president, they have enough information about him and about kamala harris and i have seen him in action before so it is up to them to make the decision —— and they have seen him in action before. make the decision -- and they have seen him in action before.— seen him in action before. when he was the president _ seen him in action before. when he was the president in _ seen him in action before. when he was the president in his _ seen him in action before. when he was the president in his first - seen him in action before. when he was the president in his first term | was the president in his first term he had _ was the president in his first term he had the — was the president in his first term he had the guardrails, the likes of john he had the guardrails, the likes of john kelly. — he had the guardrails, the likes of john kelly, these people who were figures _ john kelly, these people who were figures in — john kelly, these people who were figures in the military who deliberately appointed to show, iook. _ deliberately appointed to show, iook. i'm — deliberately appointed to show, look, i'm going to be quite safe, but he _ look, i'm going to be quite safe, but he now— look, i'm going to be quite safe, but he now believes they were part of the _ but he now believes they were part of the deep state that held him back

and he _ of the deep state that held him back and he absolutely does not want those _ and he absolutely does not want those people. so it will be donald trump _ those people. so it will be donald trump unplugged. what is interesting about what all the military people say, donald trump sits down with them _ say, donald trump sits down with them and — say, donald trump sits down with them and says, will you be loyal to me? _ them and says, will you be loyal to me? they— them and says, will you be loyal to me? they say i will be loyal to the constitution of the united states which _ constitution of the united