and it's a big week for the tories — it isa it is a big week, this is about how we fix the foundations of our economy and it is about how we deliver the change that people voted for in july. deliver the change that people voted for injuly. are you feeling the pressure? we all do, these are big decisions and a big responsibility, but people will see the change they voted for. and it's a big week for the tories — the closing days of the leadership contest between these two. andrew griffith, the current shadow science secretary, is here as the tories prepare to respond to a budget for the first time as the opposition in a generation. and as big as it gets across the atlantic ? nine days to go till the election — we'll hear our north america editor's verdict on the week. and it's sunday, so there's some stardust — steve coogan s been telling me how alan partridge might handle hosting a sunday morning political show:

as a white, middle—aged, older than middle—aged man, he would be desperate to be relevant in any way, shape or form. a bit like keir starmer, he'd see which way the media wind was blowing and go that way. and welcome to our team at the desk for the next hour this week: baroness amos — former cabinet minister and diplomat; top economist andy haldane and hotelier sir rocco forte. let's start with the headlines. the budget dominates. rachel reeves tells the observer her statement will match the greatest

moments in her party's history, but the sunday telegraph say businesses have already started shutting up shop and the mail on sunday warns of tax hikes. the independent splashes "west have warned iran not to retaliate after israel's revenge strikes". but the tabloids go royal — prince william has said his mother inspired his campaign against homelessness. and the sunday express says the king charles is expected to return to a normal travel schedule after the commonwealth summit lifted his spirits. let's start with this studio in the budget. andy, maybe the biggest thing about the budget has already happened. the chancellor has said she is changing the way the government calculates its debt and borrowing. and she credited you as one of the people who changed her mind. you said she should do it a few months ago. what is the change

going to be and why does it matter? the key changes around the rule for debt, and recognising that when spending takes place for investment, thatis spending takes place for investment, that is creating an asset as well as a liability. and that opens up headroom for the government to do the right thing, to invest big across public services. 50 the right thing, to invest big across public services.- across public services. 50 in layman's — across public services. so in layman's terms, _ across public services. so in layman's terms, if - across public services. so in layman's terms, if a - across public services. so in - layman's terms, if a government borrows money to spend it on good stuff, that doesn't get counted against them?— stuff, that doesn't get counted against them? that's right, that counts as an _ against them? that's right, that counts as an asset, _ against them? that's right, that counts as an asset, not - against them? that's right, that counts as an asset, not a - against them? that's right, that i counts as an asset, not a liability. and that is what we need because we know investment is the foundation stone for growth. 5ir know investment is the foundation stone for growth.— know investment is the foundation stone for growth. sir rocco, you are at the other— stone for growth. sir rocco, you are at the other end _ stone for growth. sir rocco, you are at the other end of _ stone for growth. sir rocco, you are at the other end of the _ stone for growth. sir rocco, you are at the other end of the political - at the other end of the political spectrum, but you agreed? i’m at the other end of the political spectrum, but you agreed? i'm not sure we are — spectrum, but you agreed? i'm not sure we are on _ spectrum, but you agreed? i'm not sure we are on the _ spectrum, but you agreed? i'm not sure we are on the other— spectrum, but you agreed? i'm not sure we are on the other end - spectrum, but you agreed? i'm not sure we are on the other end of. spectrum, but you agreed? i'm not| sure we are on the other end of the spectrum. — sure we are on the other end of the spectrum, but yes, it depends what the money— spectrum, but yes, it depends what the money is going to be spent on and how— the money is going to be spent on and how it — the money is going to be spent on and how it is spent. is it going to be spent — and how it is spent. is it going to be spent effectively and to return?

when _ be spent effectively and to return? when labour first came in, they stopped — when labour first came in, they stormed a — when labour first came in, they stopped a lot of infrastructure projects — stopped a lot of infrastructure projects which the conservatives had set in _ projects which the conservatives had set in train _ projects which the conservatives had set in train on schools and hospitals _ set in train on schools and hospitals and things like that, which — hospitals and things like that, which was good investment. the other aspect— which was good investment. the other aspect of— which was good investment. the other aspect of it _ which was good investment. the other aspect of it is that they are raising _ aspect of it is that they are raising taxes hugely. a government can't create — raising taxes hugely. a government can't create growth and wealth, or it can _ can't create growth and wealth, or it can create — can't create growth and wealth, or it can create a bit of growth in the short— it can create a bit of growth in the short term, — it can create a bit of growth in the short term, but it can't create wealth — short term, but it can't create wealth for— short term, but it can't create wealth for the country. if you go back— wealth for the country. if you go back to — wealth for the country. if you go back to 2000, the private sector represented two thirds of the economy. today it represents 50%. and the _ economy. today it represents 50%. and the government is taking more. we are _ and the government is taking more. we are getting closer to the situation in the european union, which _ situation in the european union, which has — situation in the european union, which has seen no growth for a large number— which has seen no growth for a large number of— which has seen no growth for a large number of years. lots which has seen no growth for a large number of years.— number of years. lots to get stuck into on the — number of years. lots to get stuck into on the economic _ number of years. lots to get stuck into on the economic and - number of years. lots to get stuck into on the economic and business side of the budget. baroness amos, from a political point of view, you were a minister in the new labour

era. how much pressure as the government under to get it right this week? it government under to get it right this week? , government under to get it right this week?— government under to get it right this week? , �* ., this week? it is huge. i'm glad the chancellor took _ this week? it is huge. i'm glad the chancellor took her _ this week? it is huge. i'm glad the chancellor took her time _ this week? it is huge. i'm glad the chancellor took her time to - chancellor took her time to understand _ chancellor took her time to understand the _ chancellor took her time to understand the legacy - chancellor took her time to understand the legacy shel chancellor took her time to . understand the legacy she was chancellor took her time to - understand the legacy she was left so that— understand the legacy she was left so that she — understand the legacy she was left so that she could _ understand the legacy she was left so that she could think _ understand the legacy she was left so that she could think about - understand the legacy she was left so that she could think about what| so that she could think about what she needed — so that she could think about what she needed to _ so that she could think about what she needed to put _ so that she could think about what she needed to put into— so that she could think about what she needed to put into her- so that she could think about what she needed to put into her budget so that she could think about what i she needed to put into her budget so that the _ she needed to put into her budget so that the things — she needed to put into her budget so that the things that _ she needed to put into her budget so that the things that are _ she needed to put into her budget so that the things that are at _ she needed to put into her budget so that the things that are at the - she needed to put into her budget so that the things that are at the top - that the things that are at the top of the _ that the things that are at the top of the government's _ that the things that are at the top of the government's agenda - that the things that are at the top of the government's agenda in . that the things that are at the top i of the government's agenda in terms of the government's agenda in terms of health. _ of the government's agenda in terms of health, education _ of the government's agenda in terms of health, education and _ of the government's agenda in terms of health, education and the - of health, education and the importance _ of health, education and the importance of— of health, education and the importance of investment i of health, education and the i importance of investment and of health, education and the - importance of investment and growth, she can _ importance of investment and growth, she can talk— importance of investment and growth, she can talk about _ importance of investment and growth, she can talk about those _ importance of investment and growth, she can talk about those and - importance of investment and growth, she can talk about those and they - she can talk about those and they are the _ she can talk about those and they are the central— she can talk about those and they are the central part _ she can talk about those and they are the central part of— she can talk about those and they are the central part of the - she can talk about those and theyl are the central part of the budget. but at _ are the central part of the budget. but at the — are the central part of the budget. but at the same _ are the central part of the budget. but at the same time, _ are the central part of the budget. but at the same time, i _ are the central part of the budget. but at the same time, i know- are the central part of the budget. but at the same time, i know how| but at the same time, i know how difficult _ but at the same time, i know how difficult it — but at the same time, i know how difficult it is— but at the same time, i know how difficult it is to — but at the same time, i know how difficult it is to make _ but at the same time, i know how difficult it is to make decisions- difficult it is to make decisions which — difficult it is to make decisions which mean _ difficult it is to make decisions which mean you _ difficult it is to make decisions which mean you have - difficult it is to make decisions which mean you have to - difficult it is to make decisions which mean you have to cut i difficult it is to make decisions. which mean you have to cut back difficult it is to make decisions- which mean you have to cut back on things _ which mean you have to cut back on things we — which mean you have to cut back on things we saw— which mean you have to cut back on things we saw it— which mean you have to cut back on things. we saw it with _ which mean you have to cut back on things. we saw it with the - which mean you have to cut back on things. we saw it with the winter i things. we saw it with the winter fuel allowance. _ things. we saw it with the winter fuel allowance. there _ things. we saw it with the winter fuel allowance. there will- things. we saw it with the winter fuel allowance. there will be - things. we saw it with the winter i fuel allowance. there will be other things— fuel allowance. there will be other things she — fuel allowance. there will be other things she will _ fuel allowance. there will be other things she will not _ fuel allowance. there will be other things she will not be _ fuel allowance. there will be other things she will not be able - fuel allowance. there will be other things she will not be able to - fuel allowance. there will be other things she will not be able to fundl things she will not be able to fund step this — things she will not be able to fund step this is — things she will not be able to fund step this is not _ things she will not be able to fund step this is not what _ things she will not be able to fund step this is not what those - step this is not what those ministers _ step this is not what those ministers went— step this is not what those ministers went into - step this is not what those - ministers went into government for but if— ministers went into government for but if they— ministers went into government for but if they don't _ ministers went into government for but if they don't take _ ministers went into government for but if they don't take the _ ministers went into government for but if they don't take the tough - but if they don't take the tough decisions — but if they don't take the tough decisions now, _ but if they don't take the tough decisions now, the _ but if they don't take the tough decisions now, the foundationsj but if they don't take the tough - decisions now, the foundations will not he _ decisions now, the foundations will not he set — decisions now, the foundations will not he set for— decisions now, the foundations will not he set for a _ decisions now, the foundations will not be set for a better— decisions now, the foundations will not be set for a better future. - decisions now, the foundations will not be set for a better future. 50 l not be set for a better future. so it's a not be set for a better future. it's a real tightrope to walk. well, let's get to it —

only three days til the budget and we know a lot about what's to come — big tax rises, big changes to how the government does its sums on borrowing, and a big squeeze on some bits of the government's spending — the purpose we're told, is threefold — to fill in the fabled black hole in the government's wallet of billions, to escape the doom loop of low growth, and as the chancellor hinted to us a few months ago — but education, top of her personal list. well, i want taxes on working people to be lower, but you've always got to explain where the money comes from for that. but, look, the thing that got me into politics in the first place was education and schools. i'm joined by bridget phillipson. you are now in charge of england's schools. we know your department is going to get more schools, but to some viewers, it might sound like you are going back to traditional labour, borrow more, spend more, tax

more. we labour, borrow more, spend more, tax more. ~ . , labour, borrow more, spend more, tax more. . ., , , , more. we have seen rachel reeves set out the rules- — more. we have seen rachel reeves set out the rules. when _ more. we have seen rachel reeves set out the rules. when it _ more. we have seen rachel reeves set out the rules. when it comes _ more. we have seen rachel reeves set out the rules. when it comes to - out the rules. when it comes to day—to—day spending, we want to make sure there is stability. but when it comes to investing in the long term of our country, this is a budget that will fix the foundations but will also make sure we invest in our schools. there is no more important place to start than education when it comes to those foundations. so much in children's lives is determined through the education system. that starts in the early years and his wife early years education is my priority. too many of our children arrive at school and they are not where they need to be. but throughout their lives, i'm determined as education secretary to break the link between background and success. that's why i'm also pleased that alongside the investment we are setting out around the school rebuilding programme, we will also provide additional support to vulnerable children going through the social care system is that extra help for fostering and kinship carers. �* . ~'

help for fostering and kinship carers. �* ., ~ ., ., carers. and we will talk later about some of the _ carers. and we will talk later about some of the specifics, _ carers. and we will talk later about some of the specifics, but - carers. and we will talk later about some of the specifics, but let's - some of the specifics, but let's stick with the budget for now. we know there will be a hike in employers' national insurance contributions. rachel reeves confirmed that that doesn't fall under her definition of a tax on working people. why are people who run businesses not working people? what we set out in our manifesto was that we would not include vat, national insurance or income tax on working people. coming out of this budget, working people will not seek higher taxes in the payslips they receive. we know the pressures people are under. on other tax measures, you will have to wait to ask rachel reeves directly. on the sunday ahead of the budget, i can't speculate on tax measures. this isn't speculating, _ speculate on tax measures. this isn't speculating, i'm _ speculate on tax measures. this isn't speculating, i'm asking, why are people who run businesses not working people under the chancellor's definition? �* , ., chancellor's definition? because our manifesto is — chancellor's definition? because our manifesto is about _ chancellor's definition? because our

manifesto is about vat, _ chancellor's definition? because our manifesto is about vat, national- manifesto is about vat, national insurance and income tax on people whose main source of income is what they earn from going to work. that is not what — they earn from going to work. that is not what you're _ they earn from going to work. that is not what you're manifesto said. the manifesto said repeatedly, it saysin the manifesto said repeatedly, it says in black and white, we won't increase national insurance, income tax and vat. so again, why are people who run businesses not working people in this government? eyes? our manifesto was clear about who we meant. wider measures, you will appreciate the chancellor will set those out. it's more than myjob is worth to come on your programme and announce ahead of time what might or might not be in the budget. but i am not asking you about the decisions on wednesday. i'm asking what you mean as a government and what you mean as a government and what you mean as a government and what you meant in your manifesto by working people. the definition of this is important because you are using this as the foundation for how you make decisions about people's

payslips and income. so how do you define a working person? you payslips and income. so how do you define a working person?— define a working person? you are invitin: define a working person? you are inviting me _ define a working person? you are inviting me to _ define a working person? you are inviting me to speculate - define a working person? you are inviting me to speculate by - define a working person? you are inviting me to speculate by the i inviting me to speculate by the nature of the question you are asking. after the budget, when people look at their payslips, they will not see higher taxes. that is a clear commitment to recognise the importance of getting that right, because working people have faced higher taxes year after year under the conservatives. we face tough choices notjust because of the £22 billion black hole we face, but the longer term direction of our country, the terrible growth we have seenin country, the terrible growth we have seen in recent years. we are determined to turn that around and all of the work i am leading around skills, how we get growth back and how over time, that allows us to invest more in our public services and break the doom loop you described of ever higher taxes on working people and lower growth. i’m working people and lower growth. i'm not asking about the details of the

budget, i'm asking what labour means by a working person. ads, budget, i'm asking what labour means by a working person-— by a working person. a working erson is by a working person. a working person is someone _ by a working person. a working person is someone who - by a working person. a working j person is someone who derives by a working person. a working - person is someone who derives their main income from going out to work. coming out of this budget, people in that category will not see higher taxes on their payslips. so that category will not see higher taxes on their payslips.- taxes on their payslips. so as a cabinet minister, _ taxes on their payslips. so as a cabinet minister, you - taxes on their payslips. so as a cabinet minister, you are - taxes on their payslips. so as a i cabinet minister, you are entitled to a total salary of more than £160,000.— to a total salary of more than £160,000. �* ., ., ~ , £160,000. are you a working person? m income £160,000. are you a working person? my income derives _ £160,000. are you a working person? my income derives from _ £160,000. are you a working person? my income derives from my _ £160,000. are you a working person? my income derives from my job - £160,000. are you a working person? my income derives from my job and i i my income derives from myjob and i will pay whatever taxes are required. 50 will pay whatever taxes are required-— will pay whatever taxes are reuuired. ., ., ~ will pay whatever taxes are reuuired. ., ., ,, , required. so you are working person because your _ required. so you are working person because your income _ required. so you are working person because your income comes - required. so you are working person because your income comes from i required. so you are working person i because your income comes from your mainjob and you are because your income comes from your main job and you are salaried mainjob and you are salaried in that way. as a 1411 00:11:38,4