this is bbc news. we will have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk. i'm allan little. in many countries around the world, engaging in sexual activity with someone of the same sex remains a criminal offence — often carrying long prison sentences. many of those countries are former british colonies, like uganda, pakistan and jamaica. my guest today is jason jones, who took his own country, trinidad and tobago, to court to argue that its anti—gay laws were unconstitutional — and he won. it was a key victory for gay rights and has had repercussions around the world. the government, though, has appealed that ruling and the dispute could end up before the uk's privy council. so can a change in the law change popular

attitudes and culture? jason jones, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. the law that you challenged, what did it forbid? so, any sex peranum, analsex, was criminalised with up to 25 years in prison. and that's between consenting male, or also heterosexual anal sex was also criminalised. and this was based on the british colonial era buggery law, which of course goes back to 1533 and henry viii. and how rigorously was that enforced? um, it's hard to say.

i have requested repeatedly for figures of cases, but the attorney general refuses to release those figures. they say that they only use the buggery law when it's in conjunction with another serious matter. but to be honest with you, it's not about whether they use them against the community in that fashion, it's what society uses it for — to be able to justify homophobia. and what does society use it for? what is it like living as a gay man with that, the prospect of prosecution hanging over you? well, we have a very kind of glass closet system that it's kind of 0k to be gay if you're flamboyant and a hairdresser or a fashion designer. but don't be politically gay. and that's where i kind of rock the boat. and i got a lot of pushback from that for that, from the gay community itself living there. so it's a weird one. you know, it's hard for people to understand that, with something like that hanging over your head, there's still places ofjoy and people still come together and there are still relationships that happen,

but it's still undercover. it is interesting that most of the countries that still criminalise this activity are former british colonies and the former colonies of france and spain, for example, have no tradition of this. yeah, it's unique to british colonialism. and, unfortunately, this is one of the issues that i'm most frustrated by, the fact that britain is not doing enough to help dismantle this heinous legacy, that it's spread across three quarters of the planet. out of the 60 countries that still criminalise today, 33 of them are former british colonies, using british colonial era laws. and what were the arguments that you brought before thejudge? well, we fought well, we fought on six points of law. on six points of law. things like the right things like the right to privacy, the right to privacy, the right to freedom of expression. to freedom of expression. we won on all six. we won on all six. very good about it. that's why my case is so huge that's why my case is so huge and has literally changed and has literally changed the trajectory of litigation for other countries fighting the trajectory of litigation for other countries fighting against these laws. against these laws. and how did the state respond? and how did the state respond?

they actually were very, they actually were very, very good about it. and, you know, it's hard for people to understand that the attorney general of a country could, on one hand, agree with the human rights element, but then, on the other hand, appeal my victory. but there are two things at play here. number one, the fact that our supreme court is still here in the uk, the privy council, so... we'll get on to that, that's a curious anomaly, isn't it? i know it is. but the other thing, which is another curious anomaly that people don't realise, is, after we became independent from britain in 1962, somebody inserted into our constitution something called a savings law clause.

the leading counsel for the state argued that this was a matter for parliament, and he accepted that, while the legislation appeared archaic and anti—liberal, it was nonetheless the will of parliament and that this is a matter for the legislature and not the judiciary. he's got a point, hasn't he? no, he hasn't, because they haven't — they could have done that donkeys years ago and they haven't. so what we have to understand is our parliamentarians in the global south are very afraid of this subject, and that's why i took them to court. they could have done this many years ago. and why are they afraid of it? because it's a vote loser. the majority of the population are homophobic. they go to church every sunday and get shouted at that it's the worst sin possible. so, you know, we live in a society where it's not going to win you votes to stand up for a minority like us, so they're not willing to touch it. and with a general election due next year, do you think that's part of what's motivating the state to take this appeal?

well, you know, the state is very happy that i'm doing this through the courts because it lets them off the political hook. so they can point the finger at the privy council and say, "oh, look, it's them that did it, not us." so it works on every level, you know, and that's the strategy behind my activism. you know? i really thought very clearly about what this would do in terms of letting the politicians off the hook and getting what i want for my community. and what was that moment like for you when you heard thejudge read out that ruling? was it an emotional moment? oh, god, i get emotional thinking about it now. i knew going into the high court that i would win. i didn't know how big the victory would be. we won on every single point. it was one of the most important decriminalisation victories in the world, and it was a tremendous moment for me as an activist of 30 plus years to see that happen in my court and in my country.

and when we walked out, it was to joyous pandemonium. i tell people that night we won, we went to a lot of lgbt venues and, everywhere that i walked in, this sound erupted and it was the sound of freedom. and when you hear that sound coming from people, it's something that, uh... it brings a complete joy. so it had an immediate effect... immediate. ..on the morale and self—esteem of people? immediate. you know, this is what people fail to realise. when you do activism, a lot of activism is reactionary. you know, you act against what's being done to you, whereas we don't do the work internally, you know. so this was not about getting freedom and saying "up yours" to the homophobes. this was my community feeling free for themselves for the first time. and what was the public reaction like? um, mixed. i think people were very confused by it because, you have to remember, we're a very young democracy, so people didn't even know

that you could take your country to court. so that basic human right, that democratic right, was the first time that our citizens had ever come across it. so i was getting messages from straight people saying, "0h, can you tell me how to legalise marijuana?" you know, that was the key change — the fact that this was not known, this democratic right was not known by the general public. and let me ask you about your own personal story. you were born two years after the country became independent. yes. you were born into a pretty hopeful period, weren't you? yes. do you remember the optimism of your childhood? of course. you know, my dad, interestingly, was the first black television newscaster in the entire global south. he trained sir trevor mcdonald. and so i grew up surrounded by very powerful black men and women. you know, i spent time with nina simone when i was 19,

when she visited trinidad. you know, so i was very informed about civil rights and freedoms. and when i moved to the uk in 1985 and then had the rug pulled out from under me by margaret thatcher and the conservative section 28 laws, you know, that was kind of the moment, the catalyst for me to say, "well, if i'm fighting "for black rights, i can fight for queer rights as well." i want to get on to your activism in london a bit later, but let's stick with your childhood because you were born into a pretty privileged background at a very hopeful time. when did you first become aware of the whole question of being gay? well, i was one of those very effeminate kids, you know, i wouldn't kick the ball about. i was more interested in ballet and, you know, theatre and music and i was a soloist in the church choir. my grandmother played the organ in the catholic church and i was a lead soloist in choirs. so i was already targeted from a very young age as being queer. and, you know, iwas... and did you know what that meant? no, not a clue. not a clue. so i was being accused of these things, didn't know what it meant.

and eventually my parents, both journalists... my mother was a journalist in the uk before she came to trinidad. ..they sat me down when i was 14 and said, "ok, this is what you are, this is what's happening, "and go and talk to uncle michael. "go and talk to uncle peter." you know, these were their gay male friends. and, you know, they kind of dealt with the pink elephant in the room. and so i grew up very empowered. so your parents didn't reject you? no, no, no, no, no. ithink... notjust not rejected, i think it drew us closer, you know, because they did see that i was... ..i was getting this, this terrible bullying in school and stuff. so they kind of brought me a little bit closer than any other kids. and so that helped you reconcile? absolutely. because the �*60s were not a — the �*60s and early �*70s were not a great time

to be gay. absolutely. i mean, you know, funnily enough, i was living, my family were living in new york when the stonewall riots were happening. so i think it's — i think this whole idea has been part of my dna from a very young age, and i'm very feisty, and i won't tolerate being treated like a second class citizen for any of my identities. so there wasn't a coming out moment, it was a process? no, i was outed by my parents, which is a weird thing. but, you know, it is what it is. and how did your school friends react? i mean, because i'm feisty, you know, if somebody came to me with... ..with...with, you know, violence, i could hold my own and i stood my ground. and i think that has, i went to a very kind of butch catholic boys�* college in trinidad and i think that kind of toughened me up. you know, i'm not saying it's a great thing, but it definitely toughened me up. you mentioned knowing nina simone for a brief period when you were in your teens. yes. did that shape your life in any way? absolutely, life—altering.

i was 19 years old and nina, at that point, was broke. her brother had just stolen all of her money and she was couch surfing, and she came to trinidad at carnival time. and nina was a difficult person, and i think, because of my youth and stupidity, we forged this friendship. and, you know, we used to kind of sit on the beach singing neil diamond songs to each other, and it was very pure and very genuine. she was the one that told me, "get off this rock, "go and see the world." and i left a year later, and she really was the person that kind of made me see that there was a world out there that i could find myself in. and you went to live in london at the age of 20, 21? yeah. did you do that because it was a better environment in which to be gay? a bit of both. i mean, i have dual citizenship. so, you know, this is literally my mother's country and so i have the right to be here.

and i was pursuing a career in musical theatre. i had trained in musical theatre in trinidad and, you know, i was hoping that i would come up here and, you know, hit the boards. but back then, casting a mixed race person was almost impossible. so that dream died very quickly. and it was about to become a very difficult time to be gay in london and across the world because hiv/aids was about to arrive. well, you know, trinidad people don't know this, but trinidad had the second highest mortality rate from hiv/aids from 1982 to 1992. we were second only to new york city. and is that because of its repressive attitudes? no. it's a very weird story. at the time, trinidad was oil rich. i mean, we're still a petrochemical based economy and, at that point, oil was $115 a barrel. so trinidad was rolling in money, and gay men used to fly up to new york for a dirty weekend and then bring it back to trinidad.

so we lost, we lost a huge generation of gay men through hiv/aids in trinidad. and you lived through that in london. and then i moved here and, by then, it started to move to london. i mean, trinidad was hit. trinidad and new york were the epicentres and i guess around the late �*80s and �*90s, you know, we started to see it explode here in london, so i kind of... and what drew you into activism in london? section 28. you know, i was here studying. that was the law under the thatcher government that forbade the promotion... promotion... ..and propaganda in schools about homosexuality. yes. so they started marching and ijust picked myself up and joined the marches. you know, i'm now very good friends with lord cashman, who was on the front of those marches. you know, that was a real turning point for me because it was like i'd left one repressive society and now here it was happening all over again to me. so it was a moment of kind of understanding that you needed to stand up and you needed to be active. and did it feel, in the �*80s, like gay rights were being rolled back?

um...no, because, you know, that — section 28 was very specific about it in terms of how you dealt with it in libraries and schools, etc. but on the gay scene, no, it didn't have...have an effect. if anything, it galvanised the gay community, you know, hiv and aids and section 28 really brought us together as a community. and, you know, that's the thing that we have to see that activism does, you know, activism reacts and that's when we get active, when we get that kind of pushback. and when did you start thinking about taking your activism home to trinidad? well, in 1997, i moved back to london with my then partnerfrom trinidad, and he said, "listen, i don't ever "want to go home." he had come here on what was called a young person's commonwealth visa. back then, people from the commonwealth under the age of 28 could come here for two years. so i said, my mum had passed away, and i said, "oh, well, let's go and have the two years "and then we'll go

back to trinidad." and after a year he said, "i don't ever want to go back," you know, because we used to get followed around in the grocery store in trinidad. you know, seeing a gay couple was a huge issue, shopping at the grocery. so he said, "no, i don't want to go back." so i said, "well, i don't know how we can stay here." we then found an organisation called the stonewall immigration group, who are now called rainbow migration, and they were lobbying to get what was called the spousal visa. there was, at the time, the immigration, uk immigration allowed unmarried couples the rights for the overseas partner to come to britain based on cohabitation, i think, of two years under the same roof. and we lobbied labour, who was in opposition, and said, "listen, we'll give you the gay vote, give us this." you don't even need to do anything in parliament. you can get this, stroke of a pen, just insert same sex couples into this existing legislation. and lo and behold, labour came to a landslide victory in 1997 and, three months later, they passed this regulation. this was the first

positive gay regulation — legislation in british history post decriminalisation in �*67. so i've changed the laws in two countries. so... but you did go back to trinidad? yeah, i kind of pick up and i go back every ten or 12 years and spend a couple of years there. you know, ifeed my roots. and was it different campaigning for a change in the law in trinidad because britain was already, as you say, well down the road past decriminalisation in 1967 in england and wales, 1980 in scotland? and trinidad was much further back on that road. was it more difficult being an activist in trinidad? ithink... i think what people need to understand about human rights in the global south is we're like 50 years behind everybody else. you're literally starting at ground zero. you know, a couple of years ago, we started a new human rights organisation in trinidad, and the basis of it is human rights for everyone. i can't ask for rights as a queer man if black people don't have rights in trinidad. you know, we have a system that is so against human rights

and that's because we've suffered 500 years of dehumanising events. we went from slavery to indentureship, then to colonialism. you know, all of these things have impacted on the psyche of the people. so you can't say human rights for lgbt without talking about what's happening to women and children. so, you know, i have to fight for everybody. i have to lift everybody up. and was there a hostile response to your activism in trinidad at that time? very much so. what sort of things did you experience? i have a fatwa on my head. you know, we have... we have the largest... so that's a death threat you're talking about? yes. yeah, so serious that the american embassy gave me a hotline to call them, and they would have flown me off the island. they intercepted some very serious threats against me by radicalised

muslims in trinidad. were you frightened ? terrified. mm. terrified. i slept in the bathtub of the hotel. i left my friend's house and she was, you know, obviously terrified herself, and i left her house and went and i stayed in a cheap hotel undercover. and i slept in a bathtub because i was so afraid. but you persisted. well, you know, ithink... fear is one of those things that you either, you know... you either get angry and deal with it, or you run and hide, and i'm just one of those people that, yeah, i'll... ..i'll drink a rum and get over it and keep on fighting. so the case isn't over? no. the government, as you say, has appealed. that appeal could end up in the uk privy council. i know. now, that's the post—colonial constitution of trinidad and tobago. many commonwealth countries have similar provisions. yes. if it does end up in the uk privy council... it will. ..and they find in yourfavour... yes. ..that can be portrayed, can't it, by more conservative people

back home as the old colonial power imposing its values and attacking the more traditional conservative values of a religious society that is, after all, a sovereign and independent state? yes. what's your response to that? well, number one, they should remove the savings law clause because that ties us to the privy council. and we should leave the privy council and join the caribbean court ofjustice. there is a supreme court in the caribbean, sojoin it. why are we coming here forjudgments? so that's what i'll tell them. do you think you'll win? i know i'll win. i think this is a... this is the moment, you know, and thisjudgment — the original high court judgment is so powerful. i mean, when you read it, he talks about apartheid. he talks about, you know, the systems of injustices that people have suffered for centuries. what have been the repercussions of that ruling around the world? do you think, do you think the cause of decriminalisation is moving forward around the world? absolutely, and, you know, i'm very proud that my case is one of the lynchpins for it. my case was used a couple

of months later in the decriminalisation case in india — cited twice in that supreme court judgment. so this case has reverberations right around the world. a victory at the privy council will lead to decriminalisation in between seven to 11 countries. so, by the time i'm finished, i will have decriminalised over 1.5 billion people around the world. so singapore, we know, decriminalised a couple of years ago. mm. india, as you say. but in other countries, russia, even in parts of europe, hungary, for example, the cause seems to be going backwards. yes. yeah. and, you know, that is again one of the issues that i'm fighting. i'm fighting on so many different levels. one of the issues that i fight here on is the fact that lgbt rights in the global north is very white centric. you know, out of all the lgbt international organisations, only one is run by a person of colour and people of colour are the global majority. so the advocacy in the global north is very white centric

and it's all, let's get married, let's adopt kids, you know, and it's all happy families. whereas we're fighting for our very existence in the global south. so we need more focus and we need more money and we need more resources. what are the battles that remain to be fought? gay marriage in trinidad and tobago? can you foresee that in your lifetime? i wouldn't fight for gay marriage because the m—word is a dirty word, and i don't think we should be trying to look at things that are failing for the straight community. gay people welcomed it in the uk and elsewhere. i know, but, you know, not my bag. i would much rather have some kind of recognition of relationships, you know, civil partnership, for example. i mean, the work that me and my partner and the 39 other gay and lesbian people did back in 1997 led to civil partnership and then to same sex marriage because this was the first time in history

that the government had all of this proof that gay people had long lasting relationships. before that, there was nothing. but these a0 test cases at the home office, we had to supply proof of four years�* cohabitation under the same roof. so they had this proof. "oh, wait a minute, "they don't just get on with their stuff in the bushes, "they actually live together and build families together." so changing the law is one thing. changing popular attitudes and culture is another and... i'm not interested in it. ithink, you know, i come from a background, for example, my white family, who were racist and had cold, dark, racist hearts. if i can't change their mind, i can't change anybody else�*s. and i think, you know... but are popular attitudes in trinidad and tobago changing? have they changed in the course of your adult lifetime, a0 years? yes, and no. i mean, you can see a lot of change in terms of the openness and visibility of lgbt people, but there is also a great pushback. you know, in my case, all of the big, all of the big

religious organisations joined in fighting against me and have spent millions to fight against me. so, on the one hand, it goes forward, on the other hand, it goes back. jasonjones, we have to leave it there. we'll watch the case with interest. thank you. thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you so much. hello there. high pressure continues to dominate for many. a lot of low grey cloud around on thursday, but for a favoured few we had some sunshine. north—west wales, north—west england along with the far north of scotland, a beautiful day here. and temperatures responded — a high of 19 degrees. quite unusual to get 19 degrees in scotland in november.

it's only happened twice in the last 20 years, but in staffordshire it's a disappointing day where the cloud lingered and the mist lurked — only a high of nine celsius. now, as we move out of thursday into friday, we're still under this influence of high pressure. bit more of a breeze out towards the west, continuing. and that is the reason for breaking up some of the cloud on thursday. so there is a chance that we could see that happening again during friday. we start off on a relatively mild note, eight or nine degrees in the east, double digits out to the west. again, a cloudy, misty start across central and south—east england. the mist lifting to low cloud. hopefully the breeze will break up the cloud, particularly once again in northern scotland, so there will be some glimpses of sunshine for some and temperatures again ranging between 12 and 13 degrees. we might see a 16 if we get the sunshine coming through.

then as we move into saturday, almost a repeat performance once again. a lot of cloud around. by the end of the day we could see some patchy drizzle into northern ireland, perhaps wales and south west england as well. scotland could again see the best of any sunny breaks. 11 to 1a degrees here. we might again get 16 somewhere in the south—west. sunday, remembrance sunday. another front will move in. this time it could bring some showery outbreaks of rain with it, but as that front moves through, it's a cold front. it's going to introduce cleaner, fresher air following on behind. welcome news for many of us. top temperatures through sunday afternoon again between 12 and 16 degrees. but as we move into monday and that weather front eases away, we see this area of high pressure building in from the west. so change in wind direction will certainly bring a change of fortunes for many. there is a greater chance for sunshine on monday. the cloud breaking up and temperatures staying slightly above where they should be for this time of year.

live from washington,

this is bbc news. president—elect donald trump appoints his campaign manager, susie wiles, as chief of staff for his upcoming term, in his first appointment to his white house team. us presidentjoe biden addresses the nation for the first time since the election, saying there will and must be, a "peaceful transition" of power. and ukraine's president stresses the importance of close trans—atlantic ties under the next trump administration. hello. and katrina perry. the us president—elect, donald trump, has announced susan summerall wiles, the architect of his 2024 election campaign, will be his white house chief of staff when he returns to the oval office injanuary. she will be the first—ever woman to hold the role.

in a statement, donald trump described her as an integral