welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. the island nation ofjamaica likes to see itself as a caribbean success story, with an economy that has tamed crippling debt, a tourism sector that has bounced back from covid and with regional diplomatic clout in the global debate on climate change and reparations for slavery. but on the flip side, jamaica's reputation is being tarnished by violent crime, drugs and gang warfare. my guest is veteran tourism minister edmund bartlett. why hasn't jamaica fixed its internal strife?

edmund bartlett, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much, stephen. it's my honour and pleasure to share this 25 minutes or so with you. thank you. we're delighted you're here. let's start with your specific responsibility, your portfolio — tourism in jamaica. do you think it is healthy forjamaica to be an economy that right now is so heavily dependent on tourism? well, tourism's role in economic development and economic building is very pervasive and sometimes misunderstood because tourism is not a single economic activity. it's a confluence of many economic paths,

all of which have an economic outcome of its own. so that tourism doesn't happen unless agriculture is flourishing and doing well, it doesn't happen unless manufacturing is flourishing and doing well, it doesn't happen unless energy supplies are available and medical supplies are available and a range of services. it doesn't happen unless entertainment is available and attractions are available. so i could go on and on. i get your point. i mean, clearly, it is a part of a much bigger economic picture... absolutely. ..and there are interlinks within that economy, i get that. right. but fundamentally, right now, pretty much one third

of economic activity in your country is linked to tourism. and we saw during covid how vulnerable that can leave jamaica if things go wrong. right. but that vulnerability is balanced by resilience that tourism has, which is the most resilient of all industries. it bounces back faster and it enables economic recovery at a faster rate. so that within a year and a half of covid, jamaica's economy was back on track. in fact, we had 11 consecutive quarters of economic growth, unprecedented in our history, because tourism grew and grew exponentially. in the period, we moved from zero arrivals in three years to a5 million arrivals and earning $4.6 billion... i mean, the numbers are impressive, but at some point, you're going to have to rein in your ambition. i saw somewhere you said you want to see six million visitors a year. prime minister actually said eight. eight? yes. but your population is only, what, 2.8 million? this sounds like you are putting a strain on the resources, the infrastructure of your country that, frankly, it may not be able to bear.

excellent point, in fact, because that's what defines overtourism in the final analysis... and you must be aware, in the west of your country, negril and some other tourist communities close by, there have been water shortages, people have had to bring in privatised water at vast expense. there are people in their hotel rooms saying they couldn't get a shower, they couldn't get drinking water, it was in short supply. so here's the challenge. the challenge is to build the carrying capacity to enable us to plan appropriately and to accrete the infrastructure capacity to enable this increase in arrivals. so the decision to have eight million is not lightly taken, and it has to be against the background of a whole series of development and infrastructure improvement, ie, building carrying capacity over time to enable eight million. and at the same time as you say that the government is absolutely across that need

to build in resilience, you also know that there are grave concerns injamaica about the long term impacts of climate change... indeed. ..and extreme weather events, which, as we saw this last summer with hurricane beryl, are putting another and very different massive strain on your infrastructure and resources. absolutely. and, you know, that's why we moved very quickly to establish institutional mechanisms to build capacity to, one, forecast disruptions, observatories that allow us to look down the road to see what's happening. secondly, to create opportunities for mitigation against these disruptions. thirdly, to build capacity to manage the disruptions when they come and then to recover, to recover quickly. and fifthly, to thrive. see, ijust wonder... so it's against that background, sorry, that i established the global tourism resilience and crisis

management centre... listen, i get it. i get your ambition. but i also wonder about that word, hubris. you know, you're talking about very quickly getting to eight million visitors a year. we know that extreme weather events are becoming more common, not least in the caribbean. and then i look at what happened this summer when hurricane beryl hit. and immediately, according to unicef, 160,000 jamaicans, including almost 40,000 children, were in dire need of humanitarian assistance. i mean, itjust seems there's something going on here... no, we recovered so fast from the beryl impact. indeed, beryl didn't hit jamaica directly. what happened is that beryl passed close to the southern side ofjamaica, and the outer bands of beryl caused some difficulty for us. but the northern side ofjamaica was essentially untouched. sure. so, for example... i guess, i guess... i'm just getting to this point.

if one looks forward, do you believe when it comes to climate change, let's leave aside the strain of tourism, but do you believe, when it comes to climate change, thatjamaica is getting enough long term investment and assistance from the rich world, as has been promised at various climate summits and conferences? because i'm looking at the figures and thus far, given the nature, the scale of the pledges, countries like jamaica are actually getting very, very little in terms of real, tangible assistance. that, i agree 100% with you on that. and that is perhaps the challenge of island states such as jamaica that are in fact highly vulnerable and weakly resourced. so there has to be a greater ambition among the multilaterals to recognise the particular vulnerability of island states in this regard, and to provide greater support, and also to provide support at a level that enables them to access it, because that's part of the big problem, that the protocols are so onerous that small countries like jamaica have a difficulty in accessing it to the extent that we require. and so that really has to be the big argument that must occupy our discourse.

and that's going to be a huge challenge, to get your voice heard and to get tangible help. but let's talk now about a different challenge facing you as tourism minister, but facing your government more generally, and that is the massive, damaging impact of endemic violent crime insidejamaica. it damages people inside your country, it tarnishes your reputation far beyond your own country. it's extremely damaging for the tourism sector. what are you going to do about it? well, firstly, we recognise that there's a challenge, and it's a challenge that is not peculiar to jamaica, but that gives us... well, i'll tell you what. .. that absolutely gives us no comfort. if you look at the homicide rate injamaica, it outstrips any other country with a significant population in the whole of latin america and the caribbean. your murder rate is far higher than honduras, for example,

which used to be the murder capital of the world, far higher than ecuador or el salvador. and if one looks across the world at countries like south africa, which have a huge violent crime problem, you're far higher in terms of homicide rate... but, stephen, here's the story. the work has been done and is being done. jamaica is realising reduction in every element of violent crime over the last 12 months in particular. we're seeing tangible work. investment has been put into building capacity for social development, for dealing with recidivism, to deal with whole building of capacity for people to have better understanding and relationships. so all of that is happening. then hard laws are being put in place to deal with it. so it's notjust a question of punitive action.

it is also about social development through the zones that we have developed,. these are zones of economic support for communities that are, you know, pressured, socially deprived... you say you're on top of it... and it is making a huge difference. i just want to make... there's space here for a few questions. do you know how many separate armed criminal gangs are believed to be at work injamaica right now? well, i don't have a figure on that, but what i'm saying is that the level of dismantling of those gangs have been phenomenal. i mean, for your information... there's no question about it. ..a respected 2021 study, admittedly, that's three years old, but there's no reason to believe it's changed very much, found there were, quote, "379 separate organised criminal gangs "injamaica with a population of fewer than three million." but, you know, it is very interesting that that number could be there. but look at how they have been managed over time. and the truth of the matter is that we have been dismantling, and the ministry

of national security has had an enormous record over the last number of years in dismantling them. and jamaica's position has not caused, for example, the growth in our tourism, let's take, for example, which is a very sensitive industry. it's not caused a reduction. indeed, we have grown exponentially over the period. hang on, if that's true, you're making the case, you're saying, "you know what? we're on top of it, "things are getting better." if that is all true, why has the us government, for example, still got a travel advisory out which suggests that all those considering travelling to jamaica should, quote—unquote, "reconsider travel due to crime? "and if you do go," it says, "exercise increased caution, "some areas have increased risk." it says, "violent crime occurs throughout the country, "sexual assaults occur frequently, "including in all—inclusive resorts." that's the official government advice. that narrative is the narrative of a few months ago. you should look

at the most recent... it's still... you should look at the most recent narrative. ..the current advice from the us government. the fact is, however, that this is a category three which we have had since covid. and notwithstanding that, we have seen exponential growth, investment injamaica has been phenomenal. fdi has grown phenomenally and we have had 11 consecutive quarters of economic growth. now, that is not to say... but do you think the us government, the uk government — whose travel advisories still advise enormous caution if travelling to jamaica and, at least in the americans�* case, argue that you should reconsider your travel plans — do you think that they are just plain wrong? and if you do, what are you doing about it? absolutely. we're not saying you're wrong. what we're saying is that what has been indicated there is not altogether related to activities that are happening, because travel advisories are a composite of many things, including geopolitical considerations. but we don't ignore that and we take that. and the good news,

in fact, if there is any, is that the arrivals out of the us, for example, has almost doubled in the last eight years. just one other point. we've discussed violent crime. you say that the trends are in a positive direction, but there's one other thing which is on the minds of some potential visitors to jamaica, and that is jamaican attitudes to homosexuality, in particular male gay sex. now, underyour law, as i understand it, that can be penalised. that is, gay sex between men can be penalised by prison terms up to ten years, including hard labour. and the uk official advice to travellers, says, and i'm quoting, "the attitude of manyjamaicans "towards same—sex relationships is hostile." you're tourism minister. would you like to see jamaica change its laws and change its attitude toward homosexuality? well, i tell you —

once you go, you know. and i think that's a statement which is factualfor all visitors who come to jamaica... it's very catchy, but what does it mean? ..including uk visitors. "once you go, you know." what do you mean? once you go, you know how hospitable, how kind and how responsive the jamaicans are to all visitors of whatever class, race, creed, lifestyle or orientation. there's no question about that. if you're a gay man who chooses to holiday injamaica with your partner, you can, as i understand the law, be at risk of being locked up. well, you'd be surprised if you ever come to see. and perhaps you should. well, i'd love to come to jamaica. absolutely. i just want to be clear. are you saying... you should, you should, you should. ..these laws, though they're on the statute book, mean nothing? is that what you're saying? no, no, no, we're not saying that at all. but you know that laws are stated in relation to a number of factors.

and, indeed, laws have also timelines that go beyond what is current. and current situations sometimes reflect, not necessarily what legal positions are. talking about the law and talking about lawlessness, i think it's interesting to think aboutjamaica in the wider context of your region. i mean, interesting things are happening in other countries. i'm thinking now of central america, which is not so very far away, where various countries have tried to address violent crime, gangs and cartels, and a prominent country doing its utmost is el salvador. now, there the president has passed draconian new laws which have seen him lock up, and i think this is right from my latest reading, up to i% of the entire population. that is, a vast number of young males have been locked up because of their involvement in criminal gangs and violent crime. homicides as a result of this crackdown have gone down from 53 per 100,000 — still not quite as high as you injamaica — tojust 2.4. ie, a draconian

crackdown works. would jamaica consider it? we are a democracy and we have to respond... i mean, president bukele in el salvador, he was elected too. but we are a democracy from your westminster system, and we rule essentially by the laws, as you know. and we think that managing our crime situation has to be a mix of many factors — strong laws, strong action by way of policing, but strong social interventions as well. and that's a mix that jamaica is using to deal with the crime. but that... and the indication... ..draconian crackdown, jamaica is not going to engage in?

is that what you're saying? draconian lockdowns of that type would not go well with the kind of democracy that we have. do you think you get enough help from the end user countries where the cocaine that passes through jamaica is consumed? i'm thinking of the united states and europe. do you think you get enough help from them when it comes to cracking down on drug use consumption? and do you think you get enough help, particularly from the united states, when it comes to stopping the flow of guns, weapons into your country? that's the problem. the real problem is stopping the flow of guns and weapons into the country, and so that there is need for much more ambition in this area, far more support, to enable a significant cessation of flows into our space. let me ask you about a different set of questions which are facing jamaica, because, as i said at the very beginning, you pride yourself on being an influential country across the caribbean.

and one of the big questions facing you and some other caribbean nations is whether you want to, in the end, cut your ties with the british monarchy, stop recognising the british monarch as your formal head of state. jamaica said some time ago, the government said, that it was going to put a proposal before the people of your country by 2025. now it seems that's not going to happen. why? well, the proposal is pretty much on track. i think one of the changes that you have to consider in all of this is one which brings people into the mainstream of discussions and discourses, so that there is full consensus in every step of the way. and that process is ongoing injamaica now. and, yes, we will repatriate our sovereignty, there's no question about that. and i think that's the way that all countries want to go. you say there's no question about it, but i'm looking at what you said in 2022 when william and kate visited jamaica.

you said then, "the time has come to address this issue "of repatriating our sovereignty. "we need to do it now with grace and ease and no rancour." absolutely. you said that... and that remains the position. well, yeah, but nothing's actually... no, it is happening. it's not being delivered, is it? if i may, because people won't know this, you're now locked in a dispute with the opposition party in jamaica, because the opposition says they will not support going to a referendum and support the idea of cutting ties with the monarchy, unless, at the very same time, your government agrees that it's notjust about the monarchy, but also a change, so that the new final court of arbitration forjamaicans is no longer the privy council, as it's always been under the current system, but becomes the caribbean court ofjustice. your government is

refusing to accept that. yeah, but that's the opposition�*s position. we're a government, and we are a government because we are managing the will of the people. and so the position that the government takes on the matter is in consonance with the will of the people. so the opposition may have a position, and the day when the people give them the mandate, then, of course. but what it is now is that we're moving ahead to repatriate our sovereignty. the process is ongoing. we have a minister who is responsible for piloting the process through the parliament, and also with multiple consultations across the country. town hall meetings are happening as we speak in various parts of the country, where we're getting feedback from people as to what the new constitution amendment should be. but i guess the opposition has one advantage, and that is logic, because the opposition

is saying it has to be about, quote—unquote, "full decolonisation". that is, notjust cutting ties with the monarchy but cutting ties with the privy council... but decolonisation doesn't mean that you lose everything that may be beneficial to you. to repatriate your sovereignty means that you now have responsibility for your own management, and you choose what you need to retain and what you should not. and so the right ofjamaicans to retain what they feel is good for them must never be denied. do you think it is a right ofjamaicans to also get financial compensation from the uk government for the history of enslavement which your people suffered from? i think it is a discussion that must continue because there is a growing consensus among peoples of the world that the wrongs, the heinous wrongs of history, need to be made right. and i think reparation is a discussion along that line...

but to be clear, are you talking about clear financial compensation? because the uk foreign secretary at the recent commonwealth summit in samoa said that it is not, quote, "about the transfer of cash." i just wonder whether you, as a government minister injamaica, think very clearly it is about the transfer of cash? well, i don't... personally, and this is not a government position, personally, i don't think it is necessarily about transfer of cash. i think it is a lot more about a recognition that a wrong has been done and a determination to right that wrong. now, the mechanisms for righting that wrong is still up for discussion, whether it is about cash transfers or it is about creating institutional support mechanisms to build technical support for individuals,

educational development or other social development. but what has to be done is some reparatory activity. a cynic might say that the british government, by saying it wants to continue the discussion, but saying that, you know, there's no prospect of cash being transferred, it wants to kick the whole issue into the long grass. do you believe from the perspective of jamaica, the perspective of the caribbean, that it can be kicked into the long grass and essentially forgotten about? well, i think that it is impatient of time, and attempting to kick in the long grass will not wear well with a growing consciousness in the world, notjust here in the uk, because the consciousness is strong in the uk too. there are far more conciliatory comments that are coming from quarters that were totally unexpected because i think the clash of values, what i call the intergenerational clash of values, have now come to roost. we are recognising that, indeed, the values of the past caused a wrong that has scarred humanity, and that wrong must be made right. and the time for it is now. edmund bartlett, we have to end there.

but i thank you for joining me on hardtalk. thank you, stephen. thank you so much. hello there! finally, some brighter weather to enjoy for this week. certainly for the first half of the week it's looking sunny, but it will be cool at times with the clear skies, the light winds. we'll see a return to some overnight frost and fog. and then by the end of the week, certainly into next weekend, it will be turning much colder with arctic air pushing southwards across all areas. so this new area of high pressure building in from

the west bringing a different air mass, it is a drier air mass, so we should start our monday, armistice day, chilly but dry with a lot of sunshine. the sunshine continues into the afternoon. a bit of cloud for northern and western scotland, perhaps a few showers peppering the east coast of england, down into east anglia with a bit more of a northerly breeze there, but light winds elsewhere, staying dry and sunny, temperatures into the low teens. pretty much where we should be for the time of year. it's a fine end to monday, we go through a dry night. still a few showers peppering the east and southeast coast. a bit of cloud for far north of scotland, but under the clear skies it's going to turn quite cold. there will be a touch of frost, maybe some fog through central, northern and western areas. less cold when we hold on to some cloud. so, then, here's our area of high pressure. strong area of high pressure dominating the scene for tuesday. could see further showers just grazing the southeast of england through the day. so, a bit more of a breeze for the east and southeast. like i mentioned, those showers, east anglia and the southeast.

most places dry. widespread sunshine once again, lighter winds further north and west, and those temperatures into the afternoon range from 10 to 13 degrees. it's going to be another chilly night for tuesday night with clear skies. 0ur area of high pressure begins to retreat a bit further westwards into wednesday. that could allow this weather front to push into northern scotland and this feature to affect the southeast. so, top and tail of the country could be a bit cloudier on wednesday, with a few spots of rain, and most of the rain should be through the channel and across into france, but it could graze east anglia and kent at times on wednesday. have to stay tuned to the forecast. in between, a good slice of dry and sunny weather and again those temperatures into the low teens. similar sort of picture for thursday and friday. but beyond friday, we open the floodgates to an arctic northerly, and this cold air will spread south across most of the country during the course of the weekend. so we'll see variable cloud building at times as we move towards the end of the week. there will still be some sunny spells around, nights will be chilly, and then something much colder pushing in for next weekend.

live from washington. this is bbc news. russia and ukraine exchange the largest number of drone attacks since the war began asjoe biden�*s top national security adviser urges donald trump not to walk away from ukraine.

hezbollah has been all but defeated claims israel's new defence minister. but both sides continue to exchange strikes and rocket fire. republicans edge closer to securing control of the us house of repesentatives, potentially giving the party, and donald trump, a clean sweep of all levers of government. hello. we start in europe — where russia and ukraine have carried out their biggest drone attacks against each other, since the start of the invasion. russia says it has intercepted 84 ukrainian drones over six regions. the defence ministry said more than 30 drones even approached moscow. that forced flights to be diverted from three of the capital's major airports. these are pictures of the aftermath released by russian media. officials say five people were injured in an area near moscow and four houses caught fire due

to falling debris. as for ukraine, its air force said russia launched 145 drones