time for a look at the weather. here's louise lear. and finally we got his favourite moment, the day his team, leicester, when the premier league. a moment so unexpected, he said he'd present the show in his underwear if it happened. it was a bet he was happy to lose. but apart from that, nothing much has really changed.— has really changed. david stiletto, bbc news. david stiletto, bbc news.

the archbishop of canterbury is tonight still in post, but for how much longer? and this is the year that will be the hottest on record, according to the united nations at cop 29. will donald trump's plan to pull the us out of climate agreements threaten the world's attempts to stop further warming? welcome to newsnight. tonight we're bringing you an interview with an abuse survivor who is calling onjustin welby, the archbishop of canterbury, to resign because mr welby knew about horrific

abuse allegations involving a church of england lay reader back in 2013 — but the church failed to formally report him to the police. one bishop, the bishop of newcastle, has also today called for mr welby to quit, saying the church will lose credibility if mr welby stays as head of it. this scandal involves a man called john smyth, who was described in a report last week as a sadistic abuser and the most prolific abuser associated with the church of england of boys and young men from the mid �*70s to his death in 2018, in three different countries — the uk, zimbabwe and south africa — involving as many as 130 boys and young men. we are told you beat young men until they bled, why did you do that? in 2017, channel 4 exposed the scale ofjohn smyth's abuse and tried to ask him questions. this is some of the testimony from survivors of smyth's abuse that last week's report highlighted.

"i had a sense that each cane stroke had left its own mark on my body, however when i was beaten more than 30, or even as much as 100 times, there was no sense of any individual stroke marks, just a bloody mess. i began to get the feeling that i will always need beating, because i will never be rid of this stuff. i remember thinking he's going to kill me. i was that scared." last week's report concluded that smyth could and should have been formally reported to the police in the uk and the authorities in south africa by church officers, including justin welby back in 2013. had that been done, on the balance of probablities the report said, smyth could have been brought to justice at a much earlier point. mr welby told channel 4 news last week he wouldn't step down. i have given it a lot of thought, i've taken advice as recently as this morning from senior colleagues, and, no, i'm not going to resign for this.

if i'd known before 2013 or had grounds for suspicion, that would be a resigning matter. newsnight asked the archbishop of canterbury for an interview tonight and we were told he isn't currently available. we contacted a number of church of england bishops to ask for an interview about whetherjustin welby should resign or not — including the bishop of sheffield — we had no response; the bishop of edmundsbury & ipswich — we had no response; the bishop of the isle of man — we had no response; the bishop of st albans — we had no response. the bishop of southwark we were told is recovering after surgery and �*may provide a written statement later�*. the bishop of salisbury is on leave and not available. the acting bishop of worcester and dudley said they didn't want to comment publicly. the bishop of leeds we were told would get back to us. the bishop of winchester — no comment. the bishop of chichester — no comment.

the bishop of bath & wells told us in a statment, "creating a culture of safeguarding that genuinely supports victims and prevents harm is a shared responsibility that extends to each of us."; and the bishop of guildford who himself was abused by smyth isn't doing media interviews. one man who did want to speak to us is a survivor of the physical abuse he was subjected to by smyth in the 1980s. mark stibbe told us how symth breached his trust. well, i think that one of the main ways in which he did that was by inviting me and other friends of mine over to his house just outside winchester. and i think it was in that kind of homely environment and a family atmosphere that, subjected to an awful lot of good hospitality, i began to trust that he was somebody that i could, i could confide in. and when did he begin

to abuse that trust? well, ithink, you know, right from the word go from 1977, when i first kind of found faith in god, um, john smyth came into my world. and for the next few years, i didn't realise the degree to which he was actually grooming me and preparing me for the moment when he was actually going to abuse me. and now, looking back, obviously knowing a lot more about the process of abuse, i can see all the different moments along the way in which he developed this hold over me through coercive and controlling religious language, until the point where he led me up, literally up his garden path at his house outside winchester, to a shed which had been a specially

soundproofed and built for his abuses. and he subjected me to a terrible assault. he basically caned me so many times that i thought i was going to die. can i ask if you bled? yes, idid. and one of the things you know i will never forget is the fact that in that shed there wasn't very much. but what there was was very telling. there was a black leather bound bible and there were adult nappies. and the contrast between these two things, a book that should be associated with love and kindness, and these nappies that were associated with tending to criminally inflicted wounds. the contrast between these two things strikes me, even to this day, as being just a terrible paradox. but he wasn't a teacher

at your school, was he? how was he able to have access to you all, to be able to invite you to his home? well, at that time there was something called the christian forum at winchester college, and this was a group of boys which steadily grew in number. in fact, actually towards the end of my time, it was quite dramatically growing in numbers. and that christian forum was run by a maths teacher who is a christian teacher. and he invited this chap, thisjohn smyth, into this christian forum group to give talks. and he through that access began to develop relationships with the vulnerable young people like myself, who are missing their home, missing their parents, and who were therefore extremely kind of susceptible to parental approaches.

what impact, mark, has this physical abuse, what impact did it have on you then? what did it continue to have on you through your adult life? i think that it had an immense impact on me, the actual physical abuse that i suffered. i was paralysed with fear. i'd call it terror and that was very traumatising indeed. it wasn't just the physical violence, it was the psychological terror that went with it. but it wasn'tjust my own suffering. i remember, and i've talked about this frequently, i remember my best friend at school who was also a smyth victim, who just before his 21st birthday, he was promised byjohn smyth as a special birthday present that he was going to have a huge number of lashings in this birthday beating. and my friend, in order to evade this tormenting experience, tried to commit suicide and almost went through it. and when he was asked in hospital

who he wanted to come and visit him, he mentioned my name. so i went on a train to norwich, the norfolk and norwich hospital. when i saw him, i was so utterly appalled by what i saw of my friend. he'd shaved all his hair off, he had bandages around his wrists, and i've never really recovered from that memory. i doubt if i ever will. and i think the reason i'm speaking out now, and the sole reason i'm speaking out now and did in 2017, is because i want to see justice for friends like that, and i have other friends that i'm still in regular contact with in the survivor group who have suffered immense mental torment, mental health problems, marital breakdowns and divorces, all manner of traumas. and this is the shockwaves, if you will, ofjohn smyth's abuses. as you know, justin welby, the archbishop of canterbury, has said he will not resign over

this despite knowing at least as far back as 2013, about smyth's prolific abuse and failing to formally tell the police. what's your message to justin welby tonight? i honestly don't believe that justin welby can continue. i don't believe that his position is tenable, and i would also apply that to the bishops that knew and did nothing, and the senior clergy of the church of england that knew and did nothing. i think their positions are also untenable. i think there needs to be a clean sweep of the hierarchy of the c of e, and i think new people need to be put in position. people like the bishop of newcastle, who has spoken out so courageously today, those people who clearly have integrity and intentionality when it comes to protecting the vulnerable need to be the people in positions of authority. sojustin welby and all those senior clergy that did nothing but knew what was going on, they need to stand down.

they need to be replaced by people who have a proven passion for this. mark stibbe, thank you very much for talking to newsnight this evening and to our audience. we are very grateful for your time. thank you. that was mark stibbe. we asked winchester college to respond to our interview, and they said they conducted an independent review in january 2022 so wouldn't comment any further. the makin report had some strong criticism of the church of england hierarchy and justin welby himself. it said, "john smyth could and should have been reported to the police in 2013. john smyth could have been brought to justice and any abuse he was committing in south africa discovered and stopped." "it was unlikely thatjustin welby would have had no knowledge of the concerns regarding john smyth in the 1980s in the uk. he may not have known of the extreme seriousness of the abuse, but it is most probable that he would have had at least a level of knowledge thatjohn smyth was of some concern." in 2017, justin welby

said, "we were in rapid touch with the survivors." this is not correct. there was a very considerable delay in establishing any contacts and in setting up a helpline. early promises made byjustin welby to meet with the victims were not honoured." let's talk now to andrew graystone, whose book "bleeding forjesus" tells the story ofjohn smyth's crimes. theologian dr ian paul, who sits on the archbishop's council, which is the church of england's central executive body and has launched a petition calling forjustin welby to resign, and anne atkins, writer and novelist, who was the first journalist to look into smyth's abuse. and of course nick is here. well, lovely. and, you just heard a survivor saying we need a clean sweep of the hierarchy in the church of england, do you agree? that testimony _ of england, do you agree? that testimony was _ of england, do you agree? that testimony was very _ of england, do you agree? twat testimony was very powerful and i am very grateful to mark. it is a brave thing to do and important to do. i

personally would be very sad if justin steps down.— personally would be very sad if justin steps down. sad? wide? because i _ justin steps down. sad? wide? because i think _ justin steps down. sad? wide? because i think we _ justin steps down. sad? wide? because i think we are - justin steps down. sad? wide? because i think we are being i because i think we are being diverted. we are scapegoating to be perfectly honest. we do this as human beings. john smyth is dead and thatis human beings. john smyth is dead and that is very frustrating that he has escaped earthlyjustice. it is a natural human impulse to want to blame somebody else. sometimes it is inappropriate. blame somebody else. sometimes it is inappmpriate-— inappropriate. do you accept that if justin welby _ inappropriate. do you accept that if justin welby had made _ inappropriate. do you accept that if justin welby had made some kind i inappropriate. do you accept that if| justin welby had made some kind of formal police report in 2013 perhaps more boys in south africa would not have been abused with yale line now thatis have been abused with yale line now that is not true and i will tell you why. i was the first person to write about this and i believe the first person to reference it publicly told. in 2012. shortly after my article one of my children went into the police station with my

station and offered the name and they were not interested. they were something not interested. whatjustin would have done is the film whatjustin would have done is the right thing. that is what mark is asking — right thing. that is what mark is asking he _ right thing. that is what mark is asking. he said he wanted justin to do the _ asking. he said he wanted justin to do the right thing. he has talked about, _ do the right thing. he has talked about, you have mentioned promises desires _ about, you have mentioned promises desires as— about, you have mentioned promises desires as well. one of the things we have _ desires as well. one of the things we have been bending over backwards to live _ we have been bending over backwards to live on _ we have been bending over backwards to live on the archbishops counsel is a trike —

to live on the archbishops counsel is a trike and persuade survivors and survivor— is a trike and persuade survivors and survivor advocates that is a council — and survivor advocates that is a council we _ and survivor advocates that is a council we take safeguarding incredibly seriously. i know what someone — incredibly seriously. i know what someone in parish ministry that on the ground — someone in parish ministry that on the ground in the church of england we are _ the ground in the church of england we are working incredibly hard and there _ we are working incredibly hard and there is— we are working incredibly hard and there is an — we are working incredibly hard and there is an an extraordinary disconnect between all the time and energy— disconnect between all the time and energy and work and if you go into the church— energy and work and if you go into the church on sunday one of the things— the church on sunday one of the things you'll see is noted red safeguarding. will have a contact number— safeguarding. will have a contact number of— safeguarding. will have a contact number of the safeguarding opposite. when you _ number of the safeguarding opposite. when you go to the toilet will be an si-n when you go to the toilet will be an sign on _ when you go to the toilet will be an sign on the — when you go to the toilet will be an sign on the wall. clergy and members of congregations, we can week out, the church— of congregations, we can week out, the church is— of congregations, we can week out, the church is a place and then having — the church is a place and then having reached on sunday we wake up on monday— having reached on sunday we wake up on monday morning and we see this criticism _ on monday morning and we see this criticism in — on monday morning and we see this criticism in the report and just in saying _ criticism in the report and just in saying he — criticism in the report and just in saying he will not resign for this. because — saying he will not resign for this. because of— saying he will not resign for this. because of that he has lost confidence of clergy on the ground, of survivors — confidence of clergy on the ground, of survivors. the promise to see people _ of survivors. the promise to see people which was never delivered. justin _ people which was never delivered. justin has — people which was never delivered. justin has a busy diary but there is a secret— justin has a busy diary but there is a secret counciljust to make time

to do— a secret counciljust to make time to do it _ a secret counciljust to make time to do it he — a secret counciljust to make time to do it he said. that is the problem _ to do it he said. that is the problem-— to do it he said. that is the problem. to do it he said. that is the roblem. �* i. ., , problem. andrew, you have been in touch with me _ problem. andrew, you have been in touch with me survivors _ problem. andrew, you have been in touch with me survivors of - problem. andrew, you have been in touch with me survivors of the - touch with me survivors of the useful support supporter they sent you now? i speak to survivors like mark every day of _ i speak to survivors like mark every day of every — i speak to survivors like mark every day of every week. _ i speak to survivors like mark every day of every week. not _ i speak to survivors like mark every day of every week. not only- day of every week. not only survivors _ day of every week. not only survivors of _ day of every week. not only survivors of abuse - day of every week. not only survivors of abuse that - day of every week. not only- survivors of abuse that happened a lon- survivors of abuse that happened a long time — survivors of abuse that happened a long time ago. _ survivors of abuse that happened a long time ago, but— survivors of abuse that happened a long time ago, but survivors - survivors of abuse that happened a long time ago, but survivors of - long time ago, but survivors of abuse — long time ago, but survivors of abuse that— long time ago, but survivors of abuse that has _ long time ago, but survivors of abuse that has happened - long time ago, but survivors ofj abuse that has happened much long time ago, but survivors of - abuse that has happened much more recentiv _ abuse that has happened much more recently. neariv _ abuse that has happened much more recently. nearly every _ abuse that has happened much more recently. nearly every time - abuse that has happened much more recently. nearly every time people . recently. nearly every time people say, "the — recently. nearly every time people say. "the way— recently. nearly every time people say. "the way i _ recently. nearly every time people say, "the way i have _ recently. nearly every time people say, "the way i have been - recently. nearly every time people say, "the way i have been treated | recently. nearly every time people . say, "the way i have been treated by the church _ say, "the way i have been treated by the church is— say, "the way i have been treated by the church is as _ say, "the way i have been treated by the church is as bad _ say, "the way i have been treated by the church is as bad as— say, "the way i have been treated by the church is as bad as the _ say, "the way i have been treated by the church is as bad as the way- say, "the way i have been treated by the church is as bad as the way i- the church is as bad as the way i was treated _ the church is as bad as the way i was treated by— the church is as bad as the way i was treated by my _ the church is as bad as the way i was treated by my abuser." - the church is as bad as the way i was treated by my abuser." i- the church is as bad as the way i- was treated by my abuser." i always say, "are _ was treated by my abuser." i always say. "are you — was treated by my abuser." i always say. "are you sure _ was treated by my abuser." i always say, "are you sure you _ was treated by my abuser." i always say, "are you sure you mean- was treated by my abuser." i always say, "are you sure you mean that?"j say, "are you sure you mean that?" people — say, "are you sure you mean that?" people say, _ say, "are you sure you mean that?" people say. "yes, — say, "are you sure you mean that?" people say, "yes, the _ say, "are you sure you mean that?" people say, "yes, the way- say, "are you sure you mean that?" people say, "yes, the way that- say, "are you sure you mean that?" people say, "yes, the way that thel people say, "yes, the way that the church— people say, "yes, the way that the church and — people say, "yes, the way that the church and its _ people say, "yes, the way that the church and its mechanisms - people say, "yes, the way that the church and its mechanisms have i church and its mechanisms have treated — church and its mechanisms have treated me _ church and its mechanisms have treated me is _ church and its mechanisms have treated me is as— church and its mechanisms have treated me is as bad _ church and its mechanisms have treated me is as bad as - church and its mechanisms have treated me is as bad as the - church and its mechanisms have i treated me is as bad as the abuse that i_ treated me is as bad as the abuse that i suffered. _ treated me is as bad as the abuse that i suffered. i— treated me is as bad as the abuse that i suffered. i have _ treated me is as bad as the abuse that i suffered. i have been - that i suffered. i have been re-abused _ that i suffered. i have been re—abused continually- that i suffered. i have been re—abused continually by. that i suffered. i have been. re—abused continually by the that i suffered. i have been - re—abused continually by the church itseiff' _ re-abused continually by the church itself." ~ ., ., , re-abused continually by the church itself." ., ., , , ., , itself." who do they say bears responsibility _ itself." who do they say bears responsibility for _ itself." who do they say bears responsibility for that - itself." who do they say bears . responsibility for that treatment? it is the church as a whole. there has been — it is the church as a whole. there has been a — it is the church as a whole. there has been a lot— it is the church as a whole. there has been a lot of— it is the church as a whole. there has been a lot of focus _

it is the church as a whole. there has been a lot of focus on - has been a lot of focus on archbishop _ has been a lot of focus on archbishopjustin - has been a lot of focus on archbishop justin welby, i has been a lot of focus on . archbishop justin welby, and has been a lot of focus on _ archbishopjustin welby, and rightly so because — archbishopjustin welby, and rightly so because he — archbishopjustin welby, and rightly so because he is— archbishopjustin welby, and rightly so because he is a _ archbishopjustin welby, and rightly so because he is a figurehead, - archbishopjustin welby, and rightly so because he is a figurehead, but. so because he is a figurehead, but he is _ so because he is a figurehead, but he is not _ so because he is a figurehead, but he is not the — so because he is a figurehead, but he is not the ceo _ so because he is a figurehead, but he is not the ceo of— so because he is a figurehead, but he is not the ceo of the _ so because he is a figurehead, but he is not the ceo of the church- so because he is a figurehead, but he is not the ceo of the church ofl he is not the ceo of the church of england — he is not the ceo of the church of england i— he is not the ceo of the church of england. ithink— he is not the ceo of the church of england. i think there's _ he is not the ceo of the church of england. i think there's more - he is not the ceo of the church of. england. i think there's more chance of russeii— england. i think there's more chance of russell brand _ england. i think there's more chance of russell brand being _ england. i think there's more chance of russell brand being archbishop i england. i think there's more chance of russell brand being archbishop of canterbury— of russell brand being archbishop of canterbury this — of russell brand being archbishop of canterbury this time _ of russell brand being archbishop of canterbury this time next _ of russell brand being archbishop of canterbury this time next week- of russell brand being archbishop of canterbury this time next week than| canterbury this time next week than justin _ canterbury this time next week than justin welby. — canterbury this time next week than justin welby. he _ canterbury this time next week than justin welby-— justin welby. he is not going to last? football— justin welby. he is not going to last? football managers - justin welby. he is not going to last? football managers leavel justin welby. he is not going to - last? football managers leave when the lose last? football managers leave when they lose the _ last? football managers leave when they lose the dressing _ last? football managers leave when they lose the dressing room, - last? football managers leave when they lose the dressing room, justinl they lose the dressing room, justin welby— they lose the dressing room, justin welby has — they lose the dressing room, justin welby has lost _ they lose the dressing room, justin welby has lost the _ they lose the dressing room, justin welby has lost the vestry _ they lose the dressing room, justin welby has lost the vestry and - they lose the dressing room, justin welby has lost the vestry and is - they lose the dressing room, justin| welby has lost the vestry and is not going _ welby has lost the vestry and is not going to _ welby has lost the vestry and is not going to get — welby has lost the vestry and is not going to get it— welby has lost the vestry and is not going to get it back. _ welby has lost the vestry and is not going to get it back. i’m“ _ welby has lost the vestry and is not going to get it back.— going to get it back. i'm not sure that that is _ going to get it back. i'm not sure that that is true. _ going to get it back. i'm not sure that that is true. i _ going to get it back. i'm not sure that that is true. i am _ going to get it back. i'm not sure that that is true. i am a - going to get it back. i'm not sure that that is true. i am a member| going to get it back. i'm not sure i that that is true. i am a member of encland, that that is true. i am a member of england. he _ that that is true. i am a member of england. he has— that that is true. i am a member of england, he has not— that that is true. i am a member of england, he has not lost _ that that is true. i am a member of england, he has not lost me. - that that is true. i am a member of england, he has not lost me. i- england, he has not lost me. i believe him to be an extremely passionate man, he cares a lot about safeguarding. mark says we need people who care about safeguarding. i have people very close to me who have suffered abuse within the church. they have not lost confidence injustin. i hear what you're saying, andrew, and of course what you're saying is true, some people are saying that. i also am very close to people who have suffered church abuse he would not say that of the church. the

safeguarding of... underjustin safeguarding of... under justin welby�*s safeguarding of... underjustin welby�*s archbishop tenure, safeguarding has gone from one part person to a0 people or more in the church. that is underjustin. the cultural change is enormous. i come back to what i said in the first place, the police were not taking any notice. they are responsible. channel a door stop him without the police with him, and he got away. are we not criticising channel a, we are not asking anybody in the to resign. it is being directed at the easiest target. ls resign. it is being directed at the easiest target.— resign. it is being directed at the easiest target._ no, | resign. it is being directed at the | easiest target._ no, it easiest target. is that fair? no, it is not. easiest target. is that fair? no, it is not- you _ easiest target. is that fair? no, it is not. you said _ easiest target. is that fair? no, it is not. you said he _ easiest target. is that fair? no, it is not. you said he is _ easiest target. is that fair? no, it is not. you said he is being - is not. you said he is being scapegoated. very specifically, those _ scapegoated. very specifically, those of — scapegoated. very specifically, those of us who initiated this petition, _ those of us who initiated this petition, we are absolutely clear, we see _ petition, we are absolutely clear, we see in— petition, we are absolutely clear, we see in the introduction this is not about— we see in the introduction this is not about scapegoating. i think mark is right, _ not about scapegoating. i think mark is right, there needs to be a fundamental change in the ethos and the senior— fundamental change in the ethos and the senior leadership. butjustin is the senior leadership. butjustin is the doorkeeper to that. that it needs— the doorkeeper to that. that it needs to — the doorkeeper to that. that it needs to be the first step. i think the real—

needs to be the first step. i think the real difficulty is that justin has wanted to demonstrate his credibility or safeguarding by actually treating others very severely. look what happened to george _ severely. look what happened to george carey, look what happened to christopher lawson, the former bishop — christopher lawson, the former bishop of— christopher lawson, the former bishop of lincoln, all of whom had their ministries terminated prematurely for much lesser mishaps in safeguarding. so why is the same not apply— in safeguarding. so why is the same not apply to him? i in safeguarding. so why is the same not apply to him?— not apply to him? i want to ask andrew how — not apply to him? i want to ask andrew how much _ not apply to him? i want to ask andrew how much damage - not apply to him? i want to ask andrew how much damage this j not apply to him? i want to ask l andrew how much damage this is not apply to him? i want to ask - andrew how much damage this is doing to the church of england. lt is to the church of england. it is doinu to the church of england. it is doing huge — to the church of england. it is doing huge damage to the church of england. _ doing huge damage to the church of england. but— doing huge damage to the church of england. but my— doing huge damage to the church of england, but my concern _ doing huge damage to the church of england, but my concern is - doing huge damage to the church of england, but my concern is about i doing huge damage to the church ofl england, but my concern is about the damage _ england, but my concern is about the damage it _ england, but my concern is about the damage it is — england, but my concern is about the damage it is doing _ england, but my concern is about the damage it is doing to _ england, but my concern is about the damage it is doing to victims - england, but my concern is about the damage it is doing to victims and - damage it is doing to victims and survivors — damage it is doing to victims and survivors i— damage it is doing to victims and survivors. i don't _ damage it is doing to victims and survivors. i don't think— damage it is doing to victims and survivors. i don't think that - damage it is doing to victims and | survivors. i don't think that justin welby's _ survivors. i don't think that justin welby's going _ survivors. idon't think that justin welby's going by— survivors. idon't think that justin welby's going by itself— survivors. i don't think that justin welby's going by itself is - survivors. i don't think that justin welby's going by itself is going. survivors. i don't think that justinj welby's going by itself is going to make _ welby's going by itself is going to make anything _ welby's going by itself is going to make anything better— welby's going by itself is going to make anything better for- welby's going by itself is going to make anything better for them. l welby's going by itself is going to i make anything better for them. we know— make anything better for them. we know that _ make anything better for them. we know that at — make anything better for them. we know that at least _ make anything better for them. we know that at least 11 _ make anything better for them. we know that at least 11 bishops - make anything better for them. we know that at least 11 bishops knewl know that at least 11 bishops knew as much— know that at least 11 bishops knew as much about _ know that at least 11 bishops knew as much about john _ know that at least 11 bishops knew as much about john smyth - know that at least 11 bishops knew as much about john smyth and - know that at least 11 bishops knew as much aboutjohn smyth and his abuses— as much aboutjohn smyth and his abuses as — as much aboutjohn smyth and his abuses asjustin _ as much aboutjohn smyth and his abuses as justin welby _ as much aboutjohn smyth and his abuses as justin welby did. - as much aboutjohn smyth and his abuses as justin welby did. so - as much about john smyth and his i abuses as justin welby did. so what about— abuses as justin welby did. so what about them? — abuses as justin welby did. so what about them? what _ abuses as justin welby did. so what about them? what about _ abuses as justin welby did. so what about them? what about the - about them? what about the structures _ about them? what about the structures and _ about them? what about the structures and the _ about them? what about the i structures and the management about them? what about the -

structures and the management of safeguarding — structures and the management of safeguarding in— structures and the management of safeguarding in the _ structures and the management of safeguarding in the church - structures and the management of safeguarding in the church of - safeguarding in the church of england? _ safeguarding in the church of england? which— safeguarding in the church of england? which at _ safeguarding in the church of england? which at ground i safeguarding in the church of. england? which at ground level, safeguarding in the church of - england? which at ground level, as you say— england? which at ground level, as you say lan, — england? which at ground level, as you say ian. tends _ england? which at ground level, as you say ian, tends to— england? which at ground level, as you say ian, tends to be _ england? which at ground level, as you say ian, tends to be very- england? which at ground level, as you say ian, tends to be very good, but at _ you say ian, tends to be very good, but at the _ you say ian, tends to be very good, but at the level— you say ian, tends to be very good, but at the level of— you say ian, tends to be very good, but at the level of the _ you say ian, tends to be very good, but at the level of the hierarchy, i but at the level of the hierarchy, and i_ but at the level of the hierarchy, and l have — but at the level of the hierarchy, and l have to _ but at the level of the hierarchy, and i have to say _ but at the level of the hierarchy, and i have to say the _ but at the level of the hierarchy, and i have to say the archbishopj but at the level of the hierarchy, - and i have to say the archbishop was '5 and i have to say the archbishop was 's council. _ and i have to say the archbishop was '5 council, which _ and i have to say the archbishop was '5 council, which you _ and i have to say the archbishop was '5 council, which you sat _ and i have to say the archbishop was '5 council, which you sat on - and i have to say the archbishop was '5 council, which you sat on for - '5 council, which you sat on for eight _ '5 council, which you sat on for eight years. _ '5 council, which you sat on for eightyears, is— '5 council, which you sat on for eight years, is responsible - '5 council, which you sat on for eight years, is responsible forl '5 council, which you sat on for i eight years, is responsible for the central— eight years, is responsible for the central safeguarding _ eight years, is responsible for the central safeguarding function - eight years, is responsible for the central safeguarding function of. eight years, is responsible for the i central safeguarding function of the church— central safeguarding function of the church of— central safeguarding function of the church of england. _ central safeguarding function of the church of england. the _ central safeguarding function of the church of england. the hierarchy i central safeguarding function of the church of england. the hierarchy atj church of england. the hierarchy at that level. — church of england. the hierarchy at that level. the _ church of england. the hierarchy at that level, the management- church of england. the hierarchy at that level, the management level, | church of england. the hierarchy at. that level, the management level, it is utterly— that level, the management level, it is utterly chaotic. _ that level, the management level, it is utterly chaotic. they _ that level, the management level, it is utterly chaotic. they do _ that level, the management level, it is utterly chaotic. they do not - that level, the management level, it is utterly chaotic. they do not even i is utterly chaotic. they do not even have _ is utterly chaotic. they do not even have a _ is utterly chaotic. they do not even have a system _ is utterly chaotic. they do not even have a system in _ is utterly chaotic. they do not even have a system in place _ is utterly chaotic. they do not even have a system in place to - is utterly chaotic. they do not even have a system in place to count - have a system in place to count victims — have a system in place to count victims and _ have a system in place to count victims and survivors _ have a system in place to count victims and survivors of- have a system in place to count victims and survivors of abuse. | have a system in place to counti victims and survivors of abuse. i victims and survivors of abuse. entirely agree with you that victims and survivors of abuse.“ entirely agree with you that justin resigning — entirely agree with you that justin resigning on its own is not going to do anything. but as you say, resigning o