farmers descend on westminster tomorrow to protest about plans to make some of them pay inheritance tax. we will speak to the farmers leader, who has been holding last—ditch talks tonight with the government to try and make them think again. and the world waits for president putin's reaction. what will he do now the us has said ukraine can use american long—range missiles inside russia? welcome to newsnight — we bring you insight and interviews live each weeknight. your panellists this evening — the founder of conservative home, a grass roots tory website tim montgomerie and former snp mp mhairi black and now a writer.

which is the betterjob?! tomorrow farmers from across the country are heading to westminster to protest about the government's plan to make some farmers pay half the inheritance tax of everyone else. no one knows how many will turn up — estimates range from 10,000 to 40,000. last week, nick reported here on nn there was disquiet in the environment department who said they weren't consulted about the plan ahead of the budget and in fact were informed only the night before. yes, the feeling in government is there a little bit anxious about how tomorrow might go. we have had a big outreach from within the cabinet to the farming community. thejoint statement from the environment secretary and rachel reeves the chancellor showing that they're good friends. they are saying farmers are the backbone of britain and we recognise the strength of feeling expressed by farming and rural communities in recent weeks. we are steadfast in our commitment to britain's farming industry because food security is national security. that is what they're saying. steve

reed met tom — that is what they're saying. steve reed met tom bradshaw- that is what they're saying. steve reed met tom bradshaw earlier l that is what they're saying. steve reed met tom bradshaw earlier today on the government are saying we know that the nfu are not happy but it is very important they are saying to have open lines. tom is able to what's up steve reed whenever he wants to but there is not going to be any change on the fundamentals. and you were saying i reported last week that defra were looking at trying to soften the edges of this, talking about how maybe those over the age of 80 would be exempt from the age of 80 would be exempt from the seven year inheritance tax rule. and the word from the treasury to us and to everybody else was absolutely no. but we are hearing tonight that there maybe some element of flexibility in the next year. so this change does not come into effect until april 2026, which means that it won't be contained in the finance bill attached to this budget. it will be in the finance bill next year. and any piece of legislation has to have an impact assessment. the treasury will have to write and impact assessment and defra will be able to input into

that. and what i'm told is that if there is any room for wriggle room, thatis there is any room for wriggle room, that is where that wriggle room could be found. 0k. that is where that wriggle room could be found. ok. in terms of how many farms will be affected, there are a number of sets of figures floating around. what is the accurate one, let's nail this. this has been an _ accurate one, let's nail this. this has been an area _ accurate one, let's nail this. this has been an area of _ accurate one, let's nail this. ti 3 has been an area of contention. let's have a look at these numbers that come up on our screen at the time of the budget the document show, there is rachel reeves, that it would affect 27% of farms but defra and tom bradshaw are saying, no, the figures from defra as showing that it would be 66% of farms. it is an open secret that defra is not happy with those hmrc figures, treasury hmrc figures because they say they are based on claims, not on actual farms. tonight, rachel reeves the chancellor has written a letter to the labour chair of the select committee and the chancellor has

addressed those different figures. how about this, this is a sentence straight out of yes, minister. hmrc and defra data of this is what the chancellor writes, are consistent because they're describing different things. and then in the chancel�*s defence she said that those hmrc figures are much better at predicting how many people would come within the scope of this. but the boffins at the nfu, they have been doing some digging in the table that come at the back of the chancellor's letter. and what they have found is that treasury figures show that it won't be 27% of farms affected, it will be 35%. because what these figures show, according to the nfu, is that the figures used last week were related to agriculture property relief and these figures today show it is that and business property relief. i have to say, we have put that to the treasury we haven't heard back from

them yet. treasury we haven't heard back from them et. ~ them yet. 0k. well, the prime minister was _ them yet. 0k. well, the prime minister was asked _ them yet. 0k. well, the prime minister was asked about - them yet. 0k. well, the prime minister was asked about thisl them yet. 0k. well, the prime i minister was asked about this row early today. this is what he had to say. a couple wanting to pass a family farm down to one of their children, which would be a very typical example. with all of the thresholds in place, that's £3 million before any inheritance tax is paid. and that's why i'm confident that the vast majority of farms and farmers will not be affected at all by that aspect of the budget. they will be affected by the £5 billion that we're putting into farming, and i'm very happy to work with farmers on that. tom bradshaw is president of the national farmers' union. he's against the changes to inheritance tax for farmers. will hutton is here too — he's an observer columnist who agrees with the changes, saying they will bring new life to rural britain. first of all, tom bradshaw, you heard what nick has reported in terms of the latest in the finance bill next year and an impact assessment which will be required. does that help you and your members? the very fact that two government departments can't agree on the correct set of figures gives us

great cause for concern. which of the accurate figures? what is the impact going to be? there is also the human impact of this policy that i believe has been completely overlooked. and anybody that is not likely to live seven years, and there are many people, octogenarians or older, that until the 30th october, the very best tax advice was to keep your farm until death. those people have absolutely no way to plan through this. but italy where they have already lost one part of a couple. the inheritance tax is going to be way lower than the £3 million that the prime minister talks about their other threshold. they are properly going to get 1.3, threshold. they are properly going to get1.3, 1.325 million threshold. they are properly going to get 1.3, 1.325 million pounds. they cannot plan their way out of this and that would be the end of the family business. pare this and that would be the end of the family business.— this and that would be the end of the family business. are not clear wh ou the family business. are not clear why you and _ the family business. are not clear why you and the _ the family business. are not clear why you and the nfu _ the family business. are not clear why you and the nfu think - the family business. are not clear why you and the nfu think it - the family business. are not clear why you and the nfu think it is i why you and the nfu think it is unfair that some farmers... some farmers, will have to pay half the inheritance tax everybody else has to pay. inheritance tax everybody else has to -a . , , ., , inheritance tax everybody else has

toa. , , to pay. very few people pay inheritance _ to pay. very few people pay inheritance tax. _ to pay. very few people pay inheritance tax. i _ to pay. very few people pay inheritance tax. i think- to pay. very few people pay inheritance tax. i think it. to pay. very few people pay inheritance tax. i think it is | to pay. very few people pay - inheritance tax. i think it is less than 4% of society pay any inheritance tax but there is also this element of it surely if you bring about change like this, first of all there must be an inherited —— there must be an impact assessment was by now, you're not answering the question. why are farmers a special case compared to absolutely everybody else. when we look at the margins made from preproduction, unfortunately food price inflation has not kept up with other inflation. we are... everybody benefits from. so inflation. we are. .. everybody benefits from.— inflation. we are... everybody benefits from. so that is why your members shouldn't _ benefits from. so that is why your members shouldn't pay _ benefits from. so that is why your. members shouldn't pay inheritance tax? �* , ~ members shouldn't pay inheritance tax? absolutely. we are not generating _ tax? absolutely. we are not generating the _ tax? absolutely. we are not generating the cash - tax? absolutely. we are not generating the cash to - tax? absolutely. we are not generating the cash to pay l tax? absolutely. we are not. generating the cash to pay it. tax? absolutely. we are not - generating the cash to pay it. will hurt and, should farmers be a special case? hurt and, should farmers be a special case?— hurt and, should farmers be a special case? hurt and, should farmers be a secial case? ., i. , special case? no. if you believe in the principle _ special case? no. if you believe in the principle of — special case? no. if you believe in the principle of inheritance - special case? no. if you believe in the principle of inheritance tax, i the principle of inheritance tax, which _ the principle of inheritance tax, which i — the principle of inheritance tax, which i d0~ _ the principle of inheritance tax, which i do. i think it is not a death— which i do. i think it is not a death lax. _ which i do. i think it is not a death tax, it is society sharing in the recipient's good luck tax and if you have _ the recipient's good luck tax and if you have a — the recipient's good luck tax and if you have a tax cut that you should apply— you have a tax cut that you should apply as _ you have a tax cut that you should apply as far— you have a tax cut that you should apply as far as you can busby make

it to everybody and there should not be exceptions. find it to everybody and there should not be exceptions-_ be exceptions. and you argue that these plans _ be exceptions. and you argue that these plans from _ be exceptions. and you argue that these plans from rachel _ be exceptions. and you argue that these plans from rachel reeves . these plans from rachel reeves should as you put it enable the younger generation to innovate and get into farming. how?— younger generation to innovate and get into farming. how? welcome over the last 40 years. _ get into farming. how? welcome over the last 40 years, first _ get into farming. how? welcome over the last 40 years, first in _ get into farming. how? welcome over the last 40 years, first in 1984 - get into farming. how? welcome over the last 40 years, first in 1984 mrs i the last 40 years, first in 1984 mrs thalcher— the last 40 years, first in 1984 mrs thatcher began the process and 1992 the thatcher began the process and1992 the deal— thatcher began the process and 1992 the deal was sealed, land prices have _ the deal was sealed, land prices have been— the deal was sealed, land prices have been bid up because they are effectively insulated from all forms of inheritance tax. they are inheritance tax—free. in the decades to that _ inheritance tax—free. in the decades to that period production flourished, there was inheritance tax paid — flourished, there was inheritance tax paid by farmers and more land came _ tax paid by farmers and more land came onto — tax paid by farmers and more land came onto the market. the increase in land _ came onto the market. the increase in land prices was lower than actually— in land prices was lower than actually after 92. and it would be a very good — actually after 92. and it would be a very good thing. the farms who are affected _ very good thing. the farms who are affected by, they do have the option of tax _ affected by, they do have the option of tax planning, they do have the option— of tax planning, they do have the option of— of tax planning, they do have the option of actually taking out

insurance. they do have the option of gift— insurance. they do have the option of gift unit, — insurance. they do have the option of gift unit, if they choose to. if they— of gift unit, if they choose to. if they don't— of gift unit, if they choose to. if they don't do that then they have ten years~ — they don't do that then they have ten years. by the way, it is very important — ten years. by the way, it is very important to make this point made, they don't— important to make this point made, they don't have to pay interest on they don't have to pay interest on the tax _ they don't have to pay interest on the tax. the rest of us do have to pay interest — the tax. the rest of us do have to pay interest on inheritance tax and it is only— pay interest on inheritance tax and it is only half the rate. just finish — it is only half the rate. just finish off— it is only half the rate. just finish off this point. the big point is that— finish off this point. the big point is that actually as the land comes onto the — is that actually as the land comes onto the market, in small parcels, it will— onto the market, in small parcels, it will keep — onto the market, in small parcels, it will keep land prices steady, other— it will keep land prices steady, other than they have been in the past and — other than they have been in the past and it— other than they have been in the past and it will give younger farmers— past and it will give younger farmers the opportunity of buying plots of— farmers the opportunity of buying plots of land they don't have at the moment _ plots of land they don't have at the moment. you will get some churn in the market— moment. you will get some churn in the market that there isn't. the bu ers of the market that there isn't. the buyers of the — the market that there isn't. tue: buyers of the land the market that there isn't. tte: buyers of the land are the market that there isn't. t"te: buyers of the land are going the market that there isn't. t'te: buyers of the land are going to the market that there isn't. t“te: buyers of the land are going to be the culprits that are looking for carbon markets are they looking to produce energy. the land price is not going to be lower. there is no link when 1419 00:11:51,7