this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. there are different ways to dig deep into humanity's darkest, most painful experiences, such as war, oppression, and racism. my business journalism is one of them. historians do it at a greater distance. and then there are the artists who confront reality with an unflinching, imaginative eye, like my guest today, the film director, sir steve mcqueen. his ground—breaking film about slavery won an oscar. his latest, blitz, looks at the human impact of war. how important is it not to look away?

sir steve mcqueen, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. it's a great pleasure to have you. i'm just very struck by something you said, as you reflected on your extremely varied artistic career. you said, "if people anticipate my next move, "thinking i'll turn right, "i'll go left." what is it that motivates you in that way? well, it's not a reaction to what people think. it's like my mother always said to me, "never let your left hand know what your right hand's doing." you know, again, it's about sort of finding the subject and what the subject needs, what, you know... again, what medium it needs

to be sort of portrayed in or looked at and what it is. again, it's always about — not about what happened yesterday and how it sort of, you know, infiltrates what you do now, it's about what's happening now. so at the beginning of every project, do you really feel your mind is sort of fresh? listen, for me, it has to be brand—new every time. right. i'm not relying on who people think i am or even who i think i am, i have no idea. it's not my business. it's about the work. w-o-r-k. it has to be brand—new every time. hm. but is there a steve mcqueen style or is that actually something you've always shied away from? the work is the... tells me what it wants. it's the work. it's whatever the subject, whatever the work needs and i'm here to facilitate that. not...not me, i'm a facilitator. i'm a vessel for the subject matter. i've just watched your latest movie, blitz. it is interesting that this

particularfilm, which is set in london in 1940, follows the story of a young black boy, who is sent away from the city for his own safety during the blitzkrieg bombing of the nazis in london. and it follows his extraordinaryjourney as he comes back to london to try and find his mother. mm—hm. um, it's come out at a time when the world, tragically, is watching war unfold... yep. ..in the middle east, in ukraine, in sudan, although it's much less well covered. absolutely. is there a resonance there, do you think? i think so, and also, unfortunately, because of the recent race riots and, of course, the demonstrations — the fascist demonstrations that happened not so far away from here. it's come at a very heightened time. and i feel as an artist, i feel very useful, i feel... again, sometimes you make an artwork that can actually become an object — an object of how we measure ourselves of, you know, how far we've come and how far we need to go. and blitz is part of that conversation. again, you know, it's based

in 1940, but you can look at it and see 2024, absolutely. yeah. it's interesting to me that you...you... because you clearly want to say something about war and the human impacts of war, you've chosen to go back to the second world war. i mean, for you as a film buff, you know, i mean, there have been literally hundreds of movies and the british have been long obsessed with their second world war experience. i'm surprised, in a way, that you've chosen to go back there. well, i wanted to bring war back home here. i mean, again, warfor most of us is abstract. how we get our information of war, how we know war is through, you know, digital form or printed form. it's very graphic. it's very abstract. um, i... i've been in a war zone. i was a war artist in 2003, i was in the war zone in iraq. what it was, is ijust wanted to bring it...bring war to our doorstep rather than some sort of, you know, far off country.

and what happened here and work — basically examine that period of time. yeah. it's a war film without much war. i mean, in the sense that, you know, warfilms often focus in on the fighting, the drama of soldiers doing their thing, and then political leaders ordering the soldiers to do their thing. you absolutely are not interested in that. no, it's war. it's war. but what war, you know... it's the consequences for... well, exactly. ..humanity. there's war, and there was a huge war going on here, of course, on, you know, in the uk. i mean, again, the war effort, again, it's part of the war. i mean, women working in assembly lines, factory lines supplying for the troops. basically, also, women being the backbone emotionally and physically of the country, you know, looking after elderly parents, evacuating their children. and, again, this is another half of the story. it's notjust happening somewhere in a field somewhere in france. now, going back to ourfirst port of call in this conversation where you stressed that, you know, you approach every subject fresh and one shouldn't make assumptions about the way you're going to cover things.

i stupidly made some assumptions when i heard that you'd made a movie about the blitz and the second world war, i thought, because i've obviously watched some of your other work, that it would be difficult to watch, in the sense that it would be extremely raw. and you...you wouldn't flinch from the horrible human consequence of a bomb dropping, for example. interestingly, in this film, it's not hugely graphic. you don't give us the hard—to—watch images of bodies that have been destroyed by munitions. was that a choice? i mean, have you chosen to make a movie that doesn't feel so raw? i think the movie is hard, is kind of hard. it's notjust about, you know, the sort of body parts sort of being, you know, unfortunately sort of, you know, thrown all over the place because a bomb falls. it's also about the aftermath.

when my bombs hit, it's about the aftermath. mm. the aftermath is the thing which is the hard thing to deal with, notjust a graphic thing — the emotional aftermath. so in my movie, when a bomb drops, you know, you don't see it... i basically saved the money on big explosions and all that set pieces and that kind of regalia and put the money into the aftermath. what happens emotionally, the internal explosions, the sort of internal sort of dealing with the sort of aftermath which is far more graphic or heavier than anything, anyone... ..any image could ever sort of portray. and, you know, again, we... it's important that we deal with the emotional rather than just the sort of, you know, the obvious. and you tell stories that are not obvious, that many people will not be aware of — stories that emphasise that in the middle of this extraordinary experience of the blitz in london, the population wasn't entirely united. you know, there were...there were real issues — issues about access to bomb shelters, for example. yes. issues about whether women

were recognised and respected for the work they were doing in the war effort. mm. did you want to sort of tell a story about the blitz that got away from, if you like, the british mythology of what had happened? yeah, ijust wanted to tell the truth and also the land... how the landscape was far more sort of, you know, ethnically. ..ethnically diverse than has ever been portrayed. i mean, i was interested in — when i did the research, it was just all there. it was like, "oh, my god, this world, this... this landscape, this visual, it's very dynamic." yeah. and it had to, for me, be visualised. i mean, it's been a choice maybe why it hasn't been done that way, i don't know, but it's kind of, you see the research... i was working with a gentleman called joshua levine, who was a historical adviser, who wrote the book secret history of the blitz and working with people at the imperial war museum. and doing all this research,

it wasjust, you know, to sort of dredge this stuff up wasjust, my god, the landscape was extraordinary and it was cinematic. it's interesting because, you know, a lot of your work from the beginning of your career in video installations, in your movies, addresses issues of race and racism. and this movie does, too, and it tells us that the london of 1940 was way more diverse than we might have expected, and that also people were addressing issues of racism then. there were both white londoners, who were racist, and there were white londoners, who rejected racism and stood up for their... ..for their neighbours, who were black. absolutely, and jewish. again, it's, you know, again, we know about mosley and we know about the fascist regime at that point. listen, race is what's happening now in the world. there's no part of the world that doesn't. . .that doesn't sort of come to the surface. you know, islamophobia, you know... you know, anti—semite situations. you know, black. it is the topic right now, and it always has been. so, again, all i'm doing is putting it... bringing it to the surface as it was then. and interesting... yeah, what you do with it is nuanced. it's never simple.

it's always complex. that's us. i just wonder if that reflects your own life because, you know, you've been honest about your background. your parents came to the uk from the caribbean. you were brought up in west london. mm—hm. you've talked about how at school there was systemic, institutionalised racism, as you've described it. yes. but you've also described how you were actually, in the end, you were brought up in quite a leafy suburb of london and you had a very happy life. oh, my god, it was amazing because i grew up, i was... i grew up with every single nationality in the world — polish, french, nigerian, irish, greek, turkish, iranian, pakistani. i mean, i mean... west indian. i mean, there wasn't a nationality you could give me that — that wasn't chinese, that wasn't at my school. it was absolutely... and i, of course, as children, we don't even think about that. what are you thinking about? forgive me, boys, we were thinking about girls and football and girls were thinking about boys and. . .and maybe music. it was a great time. it was great.

and only when i sort of left school that i realised, oh, you know, years later, oh, yeah... 0h, raza is a pakistani, and reza is from...is iran, from iran. it's like i know, you know. you know, you know. oh, yeah. 0k, oh, yes. and this person, he's polish. what's. .. oh, yeah. and it was great because it was just us. it was wonderful. but there was racism at school, for sure, with the children as well. absolutely there was racism. in terms of the expectations? it creeped in and there was classism as well, which creeped in. absolutely. it creeped in. do you think over the course of your career you've softened or mellowed ? oh, god, no. i don't... i have no choice. in what way? no. 0h, me? no. i'll tell you why. tell me. because going back to something i was discussing with you earlier about the style of blitz, your latest movie, and maybe the style, the visual

look and the emotional rawness in 12 years a slave. mm—hm. it seems to me, and correct me if i'm wrong, 12 years a slave, there was an awful lot of anger fuelling that movie. blitz feels a softer movie with, frankly, an end message, which is about the sort of overwhelming power of love. well, both is about the overpowering, ended with the overwhelming power of love. i mean, solomon northup in 12 years a slave, is with his family again and reunion is about love. it's the only one thing worth living for and the only one thing worth dying for. the same thing with blitz. it's a reunion. the fact that we're talking about slavery and we're talking about violence, and we're talking about a certain kind of, you know, mental violence as well is a different situation. in blitz, we're dealing with that, but we're looking at it through a child's eyes. so there's a slightly more innocent perspective. right. but also, it brings us adults into that perspective as well, but it refocuses our gaze through the child's eyes. so it's a different way of saying. . .saying things. but, no, i mean... it's not, it's...it�*s... there's a classical element to the storytelling. but everything in the movie visually is revolutionary.

you've never seen any image in this movie of blitz that's been on screen before. why? well, it's been a choice for other people. i mean, it's like, you know, cowboys and indian movies and you realise that native americans aren't the bad guys. you have chosen to express anger about, for example, the degree to which black artists, black technicians and craftspeople, are not given a fair shake in the film industry, in the arts. and ijust wonder whether that is something that you see improving. for example, on blitz, do you have a very deliberate policy of trying to find, you know... yes. ..the best technicians? i don't know, cinematographers, whatever, who are black, who you can give, you know, an amazing opportunity to? well, 0k, there's two things. 0n small axe, we did that all over every situation. we try to get sort of a situation where we've got people who, if we couldn't find someone who was a technician, to pair up with people and be very — a lot of apprenticeships and so forth... and i should say that those are five films that were commissioned by the bbc... yes, that are great, yeah.

an extraordinary series which really drilled into the sort of the black experience in the uk between, what, about 1960 and 1980? late �*70s to the mid—�*80s. right. and ijust want to go back as far as blitz is concerned, so we actually had... we brought a lot of black and working class children on to the set — children, excuse me, young people, forgive me, who were pairing up with experts on that set. and, actually, we did a lot of bringing in people who were involved, in heads of department as well, because it's important to me. i know it's important to you. and, again, i was shocked to read that after your 0scar win and maybe even before it, too, you were working on some other major projects. i know you wanted to make a film about fela kuti, the wonderful african musician. i think you also wanted to get a film off the ground on tupac shakur, and these projects you just couldn't get finance for. no, it's not true. that's not true. with the fela thing, the movie, after a while, i sort of thought, well, gee whiz, i mean, who wants

to make a film about fela when you can see — fela's fela. you know, i can see him in concert. it's like, i don't want to imitate that. that was a situation where i thought, mm, that's not the right thing to do. and the tupac situation was something similar. it was a documentary. i was doing a documentary. i was thinking about doing a documentary on him, but ijust thought, no, it's one of those things... it wasn't about the money, it was just about me, you know, doing the research and i thought, no, this is... these musicians, for me, were about staying elsewhere, but not for me to make a film out of. no. after 2014, and becoming, you know, the first black director to win an oscar, did you feel an ambivalence about being popular about sort of being in fashion and people wanting you to do stuff? how did you handle all that? i don't... i don't recon... i don't register it. don't...don't get... i don't, i don't... listen, i don't really... i don't really know that i am popular,

or if i am popular or... yeah, you're a ground—breaking director. i mean, you are. i don't really take myself too seriously. it's w-o-r-k. the focus is on the work. i don't really take myself that serious. i'm not that kind of person. as in, because it's all about the work. i mean, did hollywood come calling with big — because your movies wouldn't be described as sort of massive budget movies? mm—hm. have you ever wanted to do that kind of film? depending on what... no, i mean, listen, ijust... if the movie needs a certain amount of money, then yes, i'll do it. i mean, blitz cost a bit of money, but not that much money. i mean, all the money you see is on the screen, which is... which i was very grateful for. i'm not... you know, it's not about the movies, it's about the work. what is the subject matter? you know, it's about... it's not about, you know, the career, it's about the work. mm. i'm not interested in that. you've obviously spent time in the united states. mm—hm. there's some actors, like david harewood, for example, very successful black actors, who've said it's

been much easierfor him to build a career to find the best opportunities in the united states than in the united kingdom. when you compare the two cultures, the openness, the sort of degree to which they are, i suppose, colour—blind, is there a difference? i wouldn't say colour—blind. no, no. um, listen, for actors, possibly because, you know, there's more roles for them, as such. but i think it's changing here. i think it's changing a little bit, which is great. again, you know... you know, hollywood is, it's... i mean, it's seductive, isn't it? i mean, hollywood and everything else. so people want to go out there, and it has been very kind to our black actors, which is fantastic. you know, but for me, i... you know, it's one of those places where... it's where the industry is. we don't... in britain, we don't have such a... we don't really have an industry in that level as hollywood. and the fact that we speak english, it's been very kind to us. we've talked mostly about your movies, but you, of course, from the very beginning have loved making different kinds of visual art installations, short films, all sorts of different things.

do you have a freedom when it comes to working in that environment — in the sort of gallery installation environment, that you don't have when it comes to the more expensive, more collective effort of movie making? no, i have freedom all the time. i don't really — i wouldn't do it if i didn't have freedom to do what i wanted to do. absolutely. you know, if it's a movie or art, i do what i want to do. no. do movies have a future, do you think? oh, that's a question. that's the question! listen, ijust feel that, um, somehow something has to... right now, we're in a very difficult spot. i think that... listen, i love going to the cinema. i love — there's nothing better than going to the cinema. but, you know, the terrible truth is that most people... go for it. ..will watch blitz on a small screen on their telly, because apple basically have got blitz. it's their movie and they're going to... i know it's on cinema release for a short while, but most people are going to watch it on their television. yes, and listen, i did small axe, which was,

you know, five films and we, you know, it was... we opened new york film festival, it was going to be two films in cannes. otherwise it would have been... it would've been two films at cannes film festival but the pandemic, it was. but what was interesting about small axe was when it was on tv, it was amazing — so many, you know, it means like so many people called me, so many people — i'd never had a premiere like that, ever. so maybe you don't need the big screen? hold on. wait a minute. they laugh but with cinema, there's a collective viewing, i which is so amazing. it's like when you see a comedy and someone laughs in the crowd and it gets everyone laughing. there's a sort of — the oohs and the ahs of a cinema experience. imagine going on a roller—coaster ride and you're the only person on it. it's not... it's not thrilling at all. what if that's dying out, though? i interviewed not long ago the great french actor and film—maker mathieu kassovitz, and he said this... he said, in his opinion, "cinema is dying". and he said, the final thing that will kill it off is al. he said, "we are losing the fight of creativity. "ai will soon create way better than we can."

we've pretty much done everything we can with pencil, pen, sculpting, filming and now it's going to artificial intelligence. well, i totally disagree with that. i like soul, i like soul. that's why i like soul. soul, you know, whatever computer—generated image... can't generate soul... soul. ..with a computer and ai. soul. a soul, but soul — i... you know, it maybe could jerk you on an emotion. but you know, you know, i think hopefully you'll be able to smell a rat. possibly not. i don't know, but i'm interested in soul. so he or whoever, they can have the ai, i'll have soul. your career has taken you from the streets of west london to winning an oscar and all sorts of other things too. you are now sir steve. some would say you've sort of become a part of the artistic establishment. has that affected your sort of artistic sensibility? no. sorry, establishment? no. i mean, really, am i? 0k.

people say that... listen, i'm unaware of what people think or say about me. you know, i'm not even interested. you know, i'm not... i'm not in any gangs. i don't... i don't follow any crowd. so i do what i do, you know? that's not my interest. my interest is w—0—r—k. it's the work. and i focus on that, and ifocus on my family. and i focus on the few friends i have, which i can count on one hand...one hand and take away a few fingers. that's it. done. and you've said from the very beginning, "if people tell me to go right, i'll go left. "there is nothing easy or predictable about my narrative. " so where is it going next? well, i don't... i'm not doing anything for a react... to react against something. it's just how i am because... but where next, then? well, i don't... well, the thing is, ithink this is the end of — it's definitely the end of a chapter. i don't know where next is. and so there's things that are percolating and ifeel that, you know, again, you know, when you get

to a point in life where you do, i think there's a lot of reflecting. i think small axe was a very — a starting point to something. maybe blitz is a book ending or something because it was about my country. i think year 3, i did a project called year 3, which is looking at — basically, year 3 was we took portraits of all year 3 schools in the uk. we got about 70% of schools, which is incredible, over 70% of schools. and we did a show in tate britain and it was like seeing the future of london. you saw the future of london on the wall, and the future of london was, you know, was white, brown and black. it was amazing to see. you actually went into a space and actually saw the future. where is that possible? how is that possible? i think that small axe was a part of that and i think blitz, you know, is a certain kind of... i won't say end point but it was about reflecting back and seeing who we are and how far we've come in general. and, you know... and that really is interesting because you're kind of finding visual ways to represent what britain is today. and ijust wonder as a final... notjust a visual point. whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. not just visual. sort of, again, there's

an intellectual... there's a pursuit in... images only go so far. then you go deeper. it's like a pebble, you throw it into the water but it's not the pebble, it's the ripple effect. what is that? it's a trigger. do you... it's a trigger. go ahead. do you feel good about what you see in this country today because you've talked about, you know, the anti—immigrant riots recently, you've talked about some of the other issues that you faced growing up. but right now, today, do you feel good about britain? i feel good about good people. and we just need to sort of empower more people to do more good things. i feel — it's the small things, isn't it? it's the small things ofjust like, you know, giving someone a seat on the underground. it's the small things ofjust being kind. it's the small things. i think if we all have our hand on the steering wheel, we could change the situation we're in around. but it's about kindness. yes, we end on the word l—0—v—e. we end on the word love, and that's all we have and that's all we've got to live for, really, because nothing else is can equal it. there's nothing else worth living for. all this nonsense was going

on in the world and it's just about love, isn't it? that's all we got. that's it. end of. and that's where we should end. sir steve mcqueen, thank you very much... thank you. hello. 0ur cold weather is going to hang around for another few days yet, and that means the prospects — for some of you — of seeing some more snowfall. not that you need any more of that here in aberdeenshire, the snow already lying thick on the ground. with low pressure, though, moving into scotland, that snow is going to get heavier over the next few hours. this area of low pressure diving into france, well, that's going to have some snow on its northern edge as well as we look at the details into thursday. five to 10cm of snow then

possible into parts of northern and western scotland, 20 over the hills here. little line of snow showers coming in off the irish sea, working across parts of cheshire, greater manchester, very localised, but you could see a centimetre or two there. otherwise a widespread frost and icy conditions to start the day on thursday. now it looks like we'll have 2—5cm of snow building in over the high ground of south west england, potentially causing a few issues on the roads. there is a chance that some of that snowfall could reach into the south downs of south east england, so you might even see an odd centimetre or two here to start the day on thursday. away from that, this zone of persistent snow showers will work southwards across scotland. showers increasing in northern ireland, the northwest of both england and wales later in the day. probably coming through as a bit of a mix. yes, there will be some sleet and snow, equally around coastal areas, you might find a bit of rain mixed in at times. it will be another cold day. friday, another cold one, frosty and icy to start off with. fewer showers this time across northern scotland as pressure begins to rise. we'll continue to feed in those showers down the irish sea, and they will work into the northwest of both england and wales, again, coming through as a bit of a mixture, really, a bit of rain, a bit

of sleet and maybe a few flurries of snow. temperatures still well below average. but then into the weekend, we get this powerful area of low pressure moving in off the atlantic, bringing some problems to the uk. 0k, there's going to be some strong winds working through the irish sea, gusts 60—70 odd miles an hour, heavy rain that could cause some localised flooding. and then there's the risk of this hill snow across northern england and scotland. highest hills 20—40cm, but the snow coming down so heavily, it might not be possible to keep some of those higher level routes open. and because the snow is going to be coming down in big, wet, sticky flakes, better chance of it sticking to power cables, and they could be brought down under the weight of snow. so there may well be some power cuts around this weekend as well.

live from washington, this is bbc news. ukraine fires uk—supplied long range missiles into russia for the first time, while the us steps up its own support. the us vetoes a un security council resolution on a gaza ceasefire, drawing criticism from other member nations. and after two hours of deliberation, the us house ethics committee fails to release its report into former congressman matt gaetz. hello, i'm carl nasman. ukraine is escalating its war effort against russia. the bbc understands ukraine has fired uk—provided long—range missiles at targets inside russia for the first time. the british storm shadow missiles travel close to the speed of sound and are effective against bunkered weapons depots.it�*s not clear how many missiles ukraine fired, or where exactly

they were targeting, but images emerged on telegram claiming to show fragments