after negotiations on financing for poorer nations went into overtime, but not everyone�*s happy, as some nations including india say the dealfalls far short of what is needed. storm bert continues to batter the uk, with heavy rain and thawing snow bringing flooding to many areas. there are weather warnings for wind and rain covering much of the uk, with thousands of homes still without power. state media injordan say a man has been shot dead and two police officers injured in an exchange of fire near the israeli embassy in the capital, amman. they say the man had fired at a police patrol. now on bbc news, talking business. welcome. here is what is on the programme. the soaring cost of

climate change as world leaders meet in azerbaijan, spending trillions of dollars but who will pay the bill? tackling climate change and switching to green energy will cost the poorest countries huge sums but can transform the global economy? i will discuss who will the pay the bill and where it is coming from. it puts the cost $2.1; trillion a year and why it is likely to mean we will all pay in tax. what role do businesses play? this man works with amazon, chevron and volkswagen and tells me how business can do its bit to keep bills down and drive the change we need. plus the changing world of work. we hearfrom we need. plus the changing world of work. we hear from the founder of one company trying to help firms hire by making global recruitment quicker and easier. welcome to the

programme. climate change is threatening the basis of our economic survival. that is the stark warning from the head of the european central bank, christine lagarde and it underlines the huge significance of the cop29 global climate talks. they have been under way in azerbaijan this week. they have been dubbed the finance cop bisque —— because so much as to do with the cost of climate change. it aims to limit global climate change. it is likely to be breach this year for the first time. it was part of a deal agreed in paris in 2015. it also said that rich countries that benefited from industrialisation but also warm the planet will help less well off countries meet the costs of adapting to climate change and switching to renewable energy. but it is expensive. the bill,

which excludes china, is estimated at $2.1; trillion a year by the 2030. that is according to a group of experts appointed by the united nations. that is nearly 2% of the entire global economy and would pay for things like investing in renewable energy, adaptation and other climate related issues. the figure is more than 20 times as much of the $115 billion that rich countries actually stumped up in 2022. but critics say much of the funding is not new, it has been repackaged from other purposes. with that in mind here is what some of the leaders at the talks have been saying. leaders at the talks have been sa inc. , . , , leaders at the talks have been sa in _ , . , , , saying. this crisis is affecting _ saying. this crisis is affecting every - saying. this crisis is l affecting every single individual in the world one way or another. and i am as frustrated as anyone that one single cop cannot deliver the full transformation that every nation needs.—

full transformation that every nation needs. temperatures are onl art nation needs. temperatures are only part of _ nation needs. temperatures are only part of the _ nation needs. temperatures are only part of the picture. - nation needs. temperatures are only part of the picture. the - only part of the picture. the incredible amount of rain in spain— incredible amount of rain in spain wasa incredible amount of rain in spain was a wake—up call. how much _ spain was a wake—up call. how much more _ spain was a wake—up call. how much more water can the warming atmosphere hold? the much more water can the warming atmosphere hold?— atmosphere hold? the fires that devour your _ atmosphere hold? the fires that devour your forests _ atmosphere hold? the fires that devour your forests are - atmosphere hold? the fires that devour your forests are not - devour your forests are not misfortunes _ devour your forests are not misfortunes but _ devour your forests are not misfortunes but shared - misfortunes but shared tragedies _ misfortunes but shared tragedies. what- misfortunes but shared tragedies. what we - misfortunes but shared - tragedies. what we endure, you endure — tragedies. what we endure, you endure what _ tragedies. what we endure, you endure. what you _ tragedies. what we endure, you endure. what you don't - tragedies. what we endure, you endure. what you don't make i endure. what you don't make what — endure. what you don't make what we — endure. what you don't make what we lose, _ endure. what you don't make what we lose, you _ endure. what you don't make what we lose, you lose. - endure. what you don't make what we lose, you lose. if- endure. what you don't make what we lose, you lose. if we| what we lose, you lose. if we fail to — what we lose, you lose. if we fail to act _ what we lose, you lose. if we fail to act it _ what we lose, you lose. if we fail to act it will _ what we lose, you lose. if we fail to act it will be _ what we lose, you lose. if we fail to act it will be our- fail to act it will be our children— fail to act it will be our children and _ fail to act it will be our- children and grandchildren who will bear— children and grandchildren who will bear the _ children and grandchildren who will bear the burden. _ children and grandchildren who will bear the burden. we - children and grandchildren who will bear the burden.— will bear the burden. we must continue advancing _ will bear the burden. we must continue advancing the - will bear the burden. we must continue advancing the green l continue advancing the green revolution while maintaining use of gas, oil and nuclear energy. the price of climate change should not be paid by ourfarmers. farmers are change should not be paid by our farmers. farmers are the backbone of our economy and society. it backbone of our economy and socie . , ., . ~ backbone of our economy and socie . , ., . ,, ., society. it is the lack of finance _ society. it is the lack of finance that _ society. it is the lack of finance that inhibits - society. it is the lack of i finance that inhibits other inaudible which is why this cop. _ inaudible which is why this cop, the finest cop we need to deliver— cop, the finest cop we need to deliver the new climate finance

-oal deliver the new climate finance goal reflecting the true scale of the — goal reflecting the true scale of the climate crisis, the need is an_ of the climate crisis, the need is an trillions, not millions. translation: we are participating with the financing of $31 billion out of the $100 billion pledge, more than a fairshare the $100 billion pledge, more than a fair share for the european union. we are calling on everyone to follow our example including the g7 and emerging countries. we stress the need to broaden the donor base. .,, ., the need to broaden the donor base. ., ., base. those are some of the thoughts _ base. those are some of the thoughts of _ base. those are some of the thoughts of world _ base. those are some of the thoughts of world leaders i thoughts of world leaders gathered in baku but the big question is where all the money will come from to help tackle climate change? i have been speaking to one of the co—chairs of the un appointed independent high—level expert group on climate finance trying to guide the world in the right direction. welcome to the programme. talk to me about that number, the $2.1; trillion needed to tackle climate change every year by 2030. how would you come up with that number?

for very long time and make it in a conversation around the 100 billion but the 100 billion was a number that during the paris conference we talked about but there was no analysis of how to build up to the number? how we came up with a 2.4 trillion, we looked at each other items around the transition, what was needed for the transition and so how did we get to itif you think about the just transition, it needs about $75 billion, if you think about $75 billion, if you think about nature and capital and sustainable agriculture, we need about 300 billion to do it, if you think about coping with loss and damage we need something in the order of $250 billion to address loss and damage annually. each of those numbers, adaptation and resilience violence 250 billion and the energy transition, the biggest, as we all know, about 1.5 billion. if you add those numbers, it gives you somewhere in the order of $2.4 trillion needed for the climate transition. it needed for the climate transition.— needed for the climate transition. , , transition. it is helpful there is now number. _

transition. it is helpful there is now number. we - transition. it is helpful there is now number. we know. transition. it is helpful there - is now number. we know perhaps what we are aiming for. the question though, is who will pay? question though, is who will .a 2 . question though, is who will .a ? . ., ., question though, is who will -a ? ~ ., ., , pay? we are hoping to meet this bill, we pay? we are hoping to meet this bill. we have _ pay? we are hoping to meet this bill, we have a _ pay? we are hoping to meet this bill, we have a composition. - bill, we have a composition. it needs a global partnership, finding —— fighting a common global problem. countries themselves will have to deliver 1.4 trillion of resources. the other trillion we are arguing should come from the banks which are essentially the global institutions that have been put to finance and support countries' development, partner countries, g7 advanced economy partner countries and in the private sector. if this global institutions like the world bank, the european investment bank, the european investment bank, the european investment bank, the african development bank, the african development bank, and others can triple the amount of resources from 120 billion to 390 billion more or less of spending with extra concessional spending for the most... the poorest, we are

expecting and hoping the private sector can use some of this cheap money coming from these institutions which essentially they can get at lower than market price to blend and close the gaps are financing to be able to then also come into invest in these countries. also come into invest in these countries— countries. should it always fall on richer _ countries. should it always fall on richer nations - countries. should it always fall on richer nations to - countries. should it always | fall on richer nations to pick up fall on richer nations to pick up a large proportion of that bill? ., ., jam ., bill? today, over 8096 of the rlobal bill? today, over 8096 of the global greenhouse _ bill? today, over 8096 of the global greenhouse gas - bill? today, over 8096 of the - global greenhouse gas emissions that we find in the atmosphere are caused by the top 20g20 countries. the 20 most polluting countries of 80% of the pollution comes from the g20 countries. within them g7 countries. we need leadership from them. for them to pay the cleaning of their own environment. we have the 2.4 trillion number as a numberfor emerging markets and developing economies but we have a much larger number, 5.3 trillion to

6.7 trillion number where the advanced economies would pay for their own cleanup on the order of about $2.7 trillion and they have the resources. but we also need for them given they are also the source of a lot of the pollution to be able to contribute into the multilateral development system into a bucket so they can help contribute and help middle income countries and low income countries. some middle income countries. some middle income countries are also polluters. are you hopeful the money can be raised? if you look at the latest figures from the oecd they say $115 billion was spent on this challenge in 2022. that is a huge shortfall from the number you are talking about. that is true. you mentioned an important point. africa is only getting 5% of what it needs, $1.6 billion, what it needs essentially for the climate transition. last year. there is

a huge effort, the finance gap, the united nations environment agency came up with numbers about what is the financing gap? quite huge. there is the massive resource mobilisation but capital increase of the multi—natural development system which is essentially advanced economies putting in more paid—in capital to help them be able to contribute and help support developing middle income countries and low income countries do this is important, building a carbon market which will allow for the private sector will stop many of private sector companies, take, for example shipping companies have pledged to go to net zero but they are hard to inaudible sectors and cannot transition quickly so different buckets where we can raise resources to be able to meet the funding gap required but it needs political will and leadership. those taxes when collected need to be spent efficiently and in the

right sectors to help enable the transition will stop it is very difficult to tell... predict the future also if you do not do 2.4 trillion today, what you are going to need tomorrow is 5 trillion because it will become more expensive. comments are conflicted. they say they want to tackle climate change, facilitate that green transition but at the same time they are still subsidising things like fossil fuels. how can they make _ things like fossil fuels. how can they make that - things like fossil fuels. how can they make that were? l things like fossil fuels. how can they make that were? i | can they make that were? i think the fossil fuel can they make that were? i think the fossilfuel subsidy think the fossil fuel subsidy is think the fossilfuel subsidy is about $7 trillion globally, both productions and consumption subsidies. it is important for us to realise these subsidies need to be phased out carefully because if not unwell sometimes it is the poorest pay the highest price. we have seen many african countries from ethiopia to senegal to nigeria trying to phase out fossil fuel phase out fossilfuel subsidies. some people will still need a subsidy but we do

not want to be subsidising kerosene fuel for private jets was we need to make sure we phaseit was we need to make sure we phase it out efficiently. the last thing we need is to have energy shortages which then will increase prices and make it very difficult for us to actually do all of the transition.— actually do all of the transition. ~ ., ,, ., transition. when you talk about the scale of _ transition. when you talk about the scale of the _ transition. when you talk about the scale of the challenge, - transition. when you talk about the scale of the challenge, it i the scale of the challenge, it is clear there need to be tough decision, governments will have to choose what they can afford to choose what they can afford to spend on them and what they cannot. taxes will have to go up cannot. taxes will have to go up to pay for this.— up to pay for this. taxes will have to go _ up to pay for this. taxes will have to go up. _ up to pay for this. taxes will have to go up, we _ up to pay for this. taxes will have to go up, we will - up to pay for this. taxes will have to go up, we will have| up to pay for this. taxes will i have to go up, we will have to make sure in many of the developing countries in africa in particular, tax revenue to gdp on average is 17%. in europe it is 34%. we cannot expect the developed world to continue closing that gap for the emerging markets but we need one, if you give better technology to developing countries, they can grow their manufacturing sector. we are talking about an environment

where we have over 6000 trade restrictions on the global economy. we need to lift them so trade happens in a more fluid way and generates jobs, creates the kind of incomes that would raise taxes needed for some of this transition to happen so it needs a systemwide conversation.— conversation. right now, given the cost of— conversation. right now, given the cost of living _ conversation. right now, given the cost of living crisis, - conversation. right now, given the cost of living crisis, it - the cost of living crisis, it is unpalatable for governments to raise taxes anymore. the cost borrowing is at high levels for many countries. how can governments afford to pay for this? can governments afford to pay forthis? i can governments afford to pay for this? ~ ., ., , for this? i think what many --eole for this? i think what many people are _ for this? i think what many people are saying - for this? i think what many people are saying is - for this? i think what many people are saying is we - for this? i think what many people are saying is we all| people are saying is we all watched barcelona, valencia, saw north carolina, florida. we are looking at the horn of africa with droughts and floods and we are seeing the cost of not addressing the climate challenge. it is about $9 billion for the recent floods in united states, similar amounts in europe are coming. there will be, if we do not spend the money in anticipation to make sure we can protect our planet we will have to spend it

to recover from the disaster, so i think it is a choice that needs to be made and we are talking about when we say $2.4 trillion, local gdp today is somewhere in the order of 411 trillion dollars, so a lot of resources that can go around. it has to be efficient, access to those finances need to be cheaper and the use of it has to be efficient. for it to be able to deliver the kind of cost of living expectations that countries one.- cost of living expectations that countries one. when it comes to — that countries one. when it comes to cop _ that countries one. when it comes to cop the - that countries one. when it comes to cop the former i that countries one. when it | comes to cop the former un secretary general and former climate chiefs have said it is simply no longer fit for purpose. there is a cop event where you set targets, do a lot of talking and set pretty ambitious aims, the —— are they fit for purpose and who they were? i fit for purpose and who they were? ~ �* �* , fit for purpose and who they were? ~' �* ~ , ., were? i think apac is an important _ were? i think apac is an important process - were? i think apac is an i important process because were? i think apac is an - important process because if you look at what happened coming out of egypt, for example, with the emphasis on the loss and damage fund, the uae consensus, the financing

framework that was put together coming out of uae, the ten point agenda is actually being implemented, so i think the cop has succeeded in making it a global discussion. there is more that can be done to make it more efficient and clearly to raise and close this financing gap as fast as we can. . ~' financing gap as fast as we can. . ~ , ., financing gap as fast as we can. ., ~' i., ., financing gap as fast as we can. ., ~ i. ., , ., can. thank you for being on the programme _ can. thank you for being on the programme with _ can. thank you for being on the programme with us _ can. thank you for being on the programme with us this - can. thank you for being on the programme with us this week. | programme with us this week. thank you very much for having me at the bbc. thank you very much for having me at the sac.— me at the bbc. that is the scale of — me at the bbc. that is the scale of the _ me at the bbc. that is the scale of the challenge - me at the bbc. that is the scale of the challenge but| me at the sac. that is the - scale of the challenge but what role does business play in all of this? they have profited from globalisation. are they doing enough to limit the impact they have on the environment? the world business councilfor environment? the world business council for sustainable is environment? the world business councilfor sustainable is made council for sustainable is made up councilfor sustainable is made up of more than 200 businesses, households owns like amazon, chevron, ikea, meta and toyota. i have been speaking to its chief executive. welcome to the programme. good to have you with us. talk to me first of all about whether you think

private companies, the private sector is doing enough when it comes to the challenge of climate change. we talk about big numbers about what needs to be done about who will pay for it. it is the private sector up? i it. it is the private sector u - ? ~ it. it is the private sector u . ? ~ , up? i think the number companies _ up? i think the number companies that - up? i think the number companies that have i up? i think the number. companies that have now up? i think the number- companies that have now said goals and are beginning to inaudible transformation is growing rapidly but collectively business is not doing enough because the omissions in the world are still going up.— omissions in the world are still auoin u.~ ., ., ., still going up. what role would ou want still going up. what role would you want private _ still going up. what role would you want private sector - you want private sector companies to play? what is their responsibility - companies to play? what is their responsibility here? i | their responsibility here? i think the private sector companies, the main responsibility is to drive innovation. we need to rethink everything, the way we produce food, the buildings we use, the transport solutions we offer to customers and that means massive innovation, elect vacation of vehicles, cleaner buildings, regenerative agriculture and all of that will have to be driven by companies through the innovation agenda.

companies through the innovation aaenda. ~ ., _ innovation agenda. who will pay for that? that _ innovation agenda. who will pay for that? that requires - innovation agenda. who will pay for that? that requires a - for that? that requires a significant capital investment on the part of those companies at a time when they cannot really raise prices for consumers. borrowing is more expensive than it has been a long time. how will they found the transition?— long time. how will they found the transition? companies have beuun the transition? companies have be . un to the transition? companies have begun to really _ the transition? companies have begun to really now— the transition? companies have begun to really now invest - the transition? companies have begun to really now invest into| begun to really now invest into these solutions. if you look at these solutions. if you look at the more advanced car companies, they used to up to now invest all the capital into making more efficient combustion engines and you have seen those capital expenditure decisions moved to battery electric solutions so it is not like a light switch and on and off change but over time you will see those products come to market. some of these products initially are more expensive for customers, so that is where subsidies and other support from governments will be necessary. but what you do not see and electric vehicles is a

great example, the more those vehicles being produced, the faster the unit costs come down and the more affordable they become for consumers to buy them. ., . , .,, , ., them. how much stability and certainty is — them. how much stability and certainty is needed _ them. how much stability and certainty is needed on - them. how much stability and certainty is needed on the - them. how much stability and | certainty is needed on the part of government when it comes to setting targets or an agenda that private companies can follow? it strikes me there is a lot of political cyclical decision—making whereby something that is announce one minute is council the next. what business wants to see, clearly, is if they invest the sort of money in the transition there will be certainty in decision—making. i5 there will be certainty in decision-making. is there enou:h decision-making. is there enough of _ decision-making. is there enough of that? - decision-making. is there enough of that? it - decision-making. is there enough of that? it is - decision-making. is there i enough of that? it is clearly the case the world is no longer an easy place to operate in. the various political elections that hop from left to right, the geopolitical tensions in the geopolitical tensions in the world, still ongoing economic uncertainty. generally speaking you can say people want a stable political environment but on the climate issue i would argue there is more needed. the risks climate

poses to the world but also to the supply chain of business are such that business has a case to invest now but also as these transitions kick in, you now begin to see that if companies do not invest, they fall behind and their competitiveness is at stake. yes, state policy helps but there is a business case now for companies to go at it alone now as well. for companies to go at it alone now as well-— now as well. what is the overriding _ now as well. what is the overriding driver - now as well. what is the overriding driver of - now as well. what is the i overriding driver of private sector involvement in tackling climate change? is it purely self—preservation, about protecting their own interest, about there is an economic and financial opportunity in being greener or is it incentives from government saying if you do not behave, you will either face penalties or you will not get the incentives we are currently offering? i get the incentives we are currently offering? i think the cases more — currently offering? i think the cases more and _ currently offering? i think the cases more and more - currently offering? i think the cases more and more one - currently offering? i think the cases more and more one ofl cases more and more one of competitiveness of your business. we come out of an era where first it was about cs r,

being a company, then i about let's set an ambitious target and show the world we are more ambitious than others, but those errors are behind us. it is two drivers, one the risk that climate change poses and this is notjust an abstract risk but supply chains of companies are being disrupted ljy companies are being disrupted by the floods, droughts, fires and that needs to be managed well by companies, but the second and always the more exciting one, as we move into new solutions, new vehicles being brought to the market and new ways of building buildings, the companies most successful and first to market in bringing those solutions will and first to ma