anfield, it is a well but here at anfield, it is a victory for liverpool. they have now won all five of their champions league matches so far. they are right on course for a place in the knockout stage and their terrific start to the season continues. time for a look at the weather. and if you want to continue watching the bbc news at ten, please turn over to bbc one, or you can watch on the iplayer. next, it's newsnight.

could the government's deal to hand sovereignty of the chagos islands to mauritius fall apart. sovereignty of the chagos islands to mauritius fallapart. nigel sovereignty of the chagos islands to mauritius fall apart. nigel farage believes the deal would damage the uk's believes the deal would damage the uk's relationship with the us. welcome to newsnight for late night interviews and insight. your panellists this evening, sunday times columnist matthew syed and podcaster and financial times

journalist, miranda green. tonight, the ongoing row over the chagos islands. shortly, we'll hearfrom a british—chaggossian campaigner, and reform uk leader nigel farage, who has told newsnight the incoming trump government is "horrified" by prospects of the deal the uk government has struck and mr farage has briefed the trump team about it. nick, bring us up to speed with this story. well, that deal to transfer sovereignty over the chagos islands to mauritius appears to be in trouble. there are two reasons, first we have a new prime minister in mauritius and he has voiced doubts about the deal and keir starmer needs his signature for this to come into force. and the trump administration don't seem to like this and think the deal could provide an opening for china in an important area of the indian ocean. what is it about. let's look at this

map. in the right hand corner, no, in the middle, we can see the chagos area and 1,300 miles away is mauritius. the uk say they have to do it because of a ruling from the international court of justice. critics say that is only advisory. let's look at another map, this is the big bit. on the western coast is diego garcia. under the deal, the uk has negotiated a 99—year lease to allow it to continue to have that as allow it to continue to have that as a massive us military base. this some history there. the uk took control of the chagos islands in 1814. it was administered from the uk colony of mauritius until 1965. at that point the uk created the

british/indian overseas territory that covered the area and in 1968 mauritius minus that became independent from the uk. pm? mauritius minus that became independent from the uk. any more on that? or is that — independent from the uk. any more on that? or is that that _ independent from the uk. any more on that? or is that that for— independent from the uk. any more on that? or is that that for now. _ independent from the uk. any more on that? or is that that for now. we - that? or is that that for now. we will come — that? or is that that for now. - will come back to what the labour government are saying.— reform uk leader nigel farage says he's spoken to various senior republicans who are likely to be in donald trump's top team. i asked him what they thought about the deal. i never disclose private conversations i have with donald trump. that's why he likes me and trusts me. but i have spoken to very senior members of his incoming cabinet team. so marco rubio, people like that? they are horrified. horrified? horrified. why? because they know that china has extraordinary naval ambitions. we see that literally every month in the south china sea, as they encroach on new territories, they try and reclaim atolls. and the trouble with this deal is, well, number one, it's

totally unnecessary. and there is no basis in international law that we have to do this that stands up. but the worry is that it's a 99 year lease. sounds great. but we had a 50 year deal with china over hong kong — that unravelled. have you given legal advice to the trump team about this? i've given them some fairly extensive briefings on it and on the role of the international criminal court and on thejudgment, the advisoryjudgment that was made. yes, i have and i've been asked for that stuff, and of course i've provided it. right. i want to ask you, do you see your role as representing the interests of the incoming trump administration. i'd like to avoid world war three — that's quite a big consideration for me. but the question is, do you see your role as representing them ? no, my role is to represent people who voted for me here.

my role, above all, my role is to protect british interests. yes, i've spent half my life in america. i worked for american companies. you know, i've lived many, many months, if not years of my life in america. all that is true. but no, my first responsibility and the commitment of my heart is, of course, to our country. and i know without a good military relationship with america, we are in very big trouble. what do you want donald trump to do then, when he actually gets in the white house? well, my worry is that jonathan powell is now travelling all around the world, seemingly trying to get this treaty signed before trump's inauguration. that, i think is the tactic of the british government. and what would donald trump do do you think if that happens? well, if they sign a treaty and we did get david lammy to promise that it wouldn'tjust be using royal prerogative, that it would come before parliament for a vote. but, hey, labour have a massive majority. if it's done and dusted, it's very difficult for it to be undone. and i think it would be a terrible mistake. i think it would damage very badly our relationship, notjust with donald trump, but with america as a whole, and make getting any deal on tariffs that much harder.

i mean, are you genuinely suggesting that if we don't follow through with this, then donald trump might not impose tariffs on british goods being sold into the united states? he's a trader. he's a dealer. but have you had those actual conversations about the two in the same sentence? i'm telling you what i think the mood of the incoming administration is. 0k. one becomes harder if we do the other. what is it that the trump team and you think china will suddenly get access to that they can't already get access to? well, you're right, i mean, they were already bought up most of the mineral rights in africa, they've set up most of the ports, the threat to taiwan is very clear. in fact, the language towards taiwan becomes more bellicose with every year that goes by. so how does this deal make that less threatening? because the us navy and the us air force cannot operate in, you know, in that part of the world. can't operate in the middle east, couldn't operate in india, couldn't operate in a vast part of the world without the use of diego garcia,

it's as simple as that. donald trump has said of president xi of china, he's a really good friend. so surely donald trump can influence president xi. look, you know, trump negotiates with people one minute. he's very nice to them, the next minute he's not so nice to them. so he can have influence over president xi. surely not over not over xi's naval expansion, no. it's perfectly clear the direction that the chinese navy is heading in. right, when donald trump was president the first time around, china established its first overseas military base in djibouti. chinese military aircraft tested taiwanese air defences. chinese ships made aggressive manoeuvres in the disputed south china sea, and mr trump didn't make too much of a fuss over any of those things. i wonder if you're overplaying it. well, i think you will find that actually, trump was the american president who woke us all up to how china had changed, how it had changed from being a very insular country to being actually quite an expansionist country. but he didn't do much about those things. he has spoken about china again and again and again all through this campaign, and indeed through the previous one as well.

do you believe this agreement then that the uk government has done actually puts us at odds with the us? very much so, yes. and i think one of the worries here is if trump puts in place the tariff regime that he's talking about, and it sounds like he will, at least to begin with, or he'll use it as a very firm negotiating position. this makes us exempting ourselves from a tariff regime, which should be perfectly possible, this makes it much more difficult. right, so we have to not upset donald trump. we have to be an ally to donald trump. does that mean... allies don't betray allies don't betray the military of the united states, without which we would be defenceless. you've obviously spent your life in politics arguing for sovereignty. the uk has just exercised its sovereignty on this occasion. it surrendered — it's not exercised it surrendered it. it's followed what the un and the international court of justice found. the international court ofjustice gave an advisory judgment. there is no basis on international law by which this has

to happen. frankly, this is david lamy and an incoming labour government, it's their guilt, their guilt about colonialism. and they think by doing this, they're making amends. well, was borisjohnson guilty when he proposed negotiations with mauritius? was liz truss feeling guilty when she opened those negotiations? frankly, there isn't much difference between the two parties, really, is there? i hear your point about sovereignty, but then it sounds like you're also saying we can't exercise our sovereignty because it might hack off another sovereign country, in this case the united states. our military alliance with america is vital. and let's be frank, we get more out of it than they do. all right, it's a very, very good dealfor us — us being there as the number two in nato. onlyjust, given the shrinking size of our military. that for us, they give us more than we get from them. what we do not do, what we should not do, is to threaten their most important military base in the world. i've got to ask you,

how much is this you wanting desperately to be the uk ambassador in washington? well, it's not going to happen, is it? you know, i mean... how much is this about...? no, no, no, no, no. i am not going to be the ambassador, even though trump would love it. it isn't going to happen — that's the gift of the incoming labour government. i just hope they think outside the box and choose somebody that can actually get into that oval office and have a straight conversation with trump and those around him. what i want to do, and i have actually been in touch with the labour government, and i have said totally sincerely that if i can be useful, given not just that trump's a friend, but half the incoming cabinet are friends that i've known for many, many years, if i can be a bridge in any way at all to do things that act in the national interest, even though i don't support anything the labour government stand for, i would do that. thank you very much mr farage, thanks for talking to newsnight. thank you. we did ask the government for an interview on this — they declined. nick what is their position?

remind people what jonathan remind people whatjonathan powell is doivenlgt remind people what jonathan powell is doivenl. . ., , is doivenlgt doing. he is keir starmer's — is doivenlgt doing. he is keir starmer's national _ is doivenlgt doing. he is keir starmer's national security i is doivenlgt doing. he is keir - starmer's national security advisor and he has been in mauritius meeting the new prime minister and he is going to washington to meet the trump administration. i spoke to one minister who said the deal is fine and we are complying with international law and if you want to know keir starmer's mind set of this, think of phillepe sands, the lawyer, keir starmer's friend, wrote a book about the chaggossians. david lammy was talking about this today in front of the foreign affairs select committee and said keir starmer has had an exchange of letters with the new prime minister

in mauritius and he said that he is open to this deal. jemmy simon is a leading activist for the chagossian community — her family were expelled from the chagos islands in the late �*60s. welcome to newsnight. thank you for talking to us and our audience. if this deal unravels, would you welcome that?— this deal unravels, would you welcome that? ha. you wouldn't? this deal unravels, would you welcome that?- you wouldn't? welcome that? no. you wouldn't? no. you want the — welcome that? no. you wouldn't? no. you want the deal _ welcome that? no. you wouldn't? no. you want the deal to _ welcome that? no. you wouldn't? no. you want the deal to go _ welcome that? no. you wouldn't? no. you want the deal to go ahead? - welcome that? no. you wouldn't? no. you want the deal to go ahead? no, . welcome that? no. you wouldn't? no. you want the deal to go ahead? no, i | you want the deal to go ahead? no, i don't want the deal _ you want the deal to go ahead? no, i don't want the deal to _ you want the deal to go ahead? no, i don't want the deal to go _ you want the deal to go ahead? mr, i don't want the deal to go ahead. i don't want the deal to go ahead. i don't think it is right for mauritius to get sovereignty over the islands, without us getting a say in it. the islands, without us getting a sa in it. ~ ~ ., ., the islands, without us getting a sa in it. ~ . ., say in it. when mr farage said the trump administration _ say in it. when mr farage said the trump administration as _ say in it. when mr farage said the trump administration as far - say in it. when mr farage said the trump administration as far as - say in it. when mr farage said the trump administration as far as he | say in it. when mr farage said the i trump administration as far as he is concerned are not very pleased with it, you think that could be useful for you? i it, you think that could be useful for ou? ., ~' it, you think that could be useful for ou? ., ~ ., it, you think that could be useful for ou? ., ~' ., ~' it, you think that could be useful for ou? ., ~ ., ~ for you? i would like to think so, i would like — for you? i would like to think so, i would like to _ for you? i would like to think so, i would like to hope _ for you? i would like to think so, i would like to hope so. _ for you? i would like to think so, i would like to hope so. i _ for you? i would like to think so, i would like to hope so. i would - for you? i would like to think so, i | would like to hope so. i would like to think that somehow he could you know... put a piece of wood in the works and stop the deal.

know. .. put a piece of wood in the works and stop the deal.— know... put a piece of wood in the works and stop the deal. explain why our famil works and stop the deal. explain why your family was _ works and stop the deal. explain why your family was expelled. _ works and stop the deal. explain why your family was expelled. because i your family was expelled. because the were your family was expelled. because they were living — your family was expelled. because they were living peacefully - your family was expelled. because they were living peacefully in - they were living peacefully in the chagos islands that you get countries like the united states wanting what wasn't theirs and they saw how good it was in the indian ocean where it was based and therefore thought it was a good place to be an air base. instead of having the people there working for them, theyjust ejected everybody, exiled everybody from their homes. including your grandmother. mr; including your grandmother. ij�*i mother, including your grandmother. ii mother, my including your grandmother. ii: mother, my grandmother, including your grandmother. ii mother, my grandmother, grandfather, aunties, uncles, they're very much alive. i saw a few of them today. because they live in crawley. there is your grandmother on the right—hand side, what is her name?

alem sis. right-hand side, what is her name? alem sis. ~ . right-hand side, what is her name? alem sis.- alexis. _ right-hand side, what is her name? alem sis.- alexis.— alem sis. what - alexis. what has been the impact — alem sis. what - alexis. what has been the impact on _ alem sis. what - alexis. what has been the impact on your— alem sis. what - alexis. what has been the impact on your family? . been the impact on your family? firstly, i think my grandmother was adamant that we were not, i remember being little and mauritius independence day they give you the little flags, i would come home with my flag in my bag and my nan you don't bring this at home, you're not mauritian. she made sure i knew where i come from, that i could eat my food that i remembered the culture, she passed that down to me. and my mum, my grandma was a force to be reckoned with, she is an amazing woman. i'm very proud of her. she was isn't scared offend anyone or anything.

what is it you and your family want? we want the right to have a say. i would love to go back. we want to have self—determination, essentially we want to be home. this is our home. it will never stop being our home. it will never stop being our home. however many countries, superpowers, come and talk about how important it is to the rest of the world, to us it is simply our home. miranda, the ft have a story about the chagos islands tonight, i wonder what you think about this deal under the weight has been struck and when hear someone likejemmy talking hear someone like jemmy talking about hear someone likejemmy talking about it? hear someone like jemmy talking about it? ' ~ , about it? the difficulties with the deal is there _ about it? the difficulties with the deal is there is _ about it? the difficulties with the deal is there is a _ about it? the difficulties with the deal is there is a incoming - deal is there is a incoming government in mauritius who haven't agreed _ government in mauritius who haven't agreed their side of any treaty, the name _ agreed their side of any treaty, the name that— agreed their side of any treaty, the name that needs to be on the treaty, as nick_ name that needs to be on the treaty, as nick has— name that needs to be on the treaty, as nick has explained. that new cabinet — as nick has explained. that new cabinet doesn't meet until friday so my colleagues are explaining the problem — my colleagues are explaining the problem is that measures has with

the deal _ problem is that measures has with the deal it— problem is that measures has with the deal. it was such a fascinating interview with nigel raj —— mauritius. when he talked about the 99 year— mauritius. when he talked about the 99 year lease being too short, it turns _ 99 year lease being too short, it turns out — 99 year lease being too short, it turns out the mauritians aren't happy— turns out the mauritians aren't happy with the fact that 99 years, there _ happy with the fact that 99 years, there is— happy with the fact that 99 years, there is a — happy with the fact that 99 years, there is a right to that over the potentially another hundred years and they— potentially another hundred years and they aren't happy with that side of it -- _ and they aren't happy with that side of it -- a _ and they aren't happy with that side of it —— a farage. there are all sorts— of it —— a farage. there are all sorts of— of it —— a farage. there are all sorts of sticking points with it at the moment but really it is becoming clear that _ the moment but really it is becoming clear that your family's story is caught— clear that your family's story is caught up— clear that your family's story is caught up in a huge geopolitical fi-ht caught up in a huge geopolitical fight and — caught up in a huge geopolitical fight and is a political football now in— fight and is a political football now in the uk as well because you can see _ now in the uk as well because you can see a — now in the uk as well because you can see a larger wringing his hands with glee _ can see a larger wringing his hands with glee being able to employ the incoming _ with glee being able to employ the incoming labour policy can't handle foreign _ incoming labour policy can't handle foreign policy and will be up to manage — foreign policy and will be up to manage this crucial relationship with the — manage this crucial relationship with the new trump administration. what _ with the new trump administration. what do _ with the new trump administration. what do you think, matthew? is it's now going to become a political football between trump and starmer? i think the geopolitical context is worth— i think the geopolitical context is worth pondering. _ i think the geopolitical context is worth pondering. i— i think the geopolitical context is worth pondering. i think- i think the geopolitical context is worth pondering. i think we - i think the geopolitical context is worth pondering. i think we are i worth pondering. i think we are moving — worth pondering. i think we are moving closer _ worth pondering. i think we are moving closer potentially - worth pondering. i think we are moving closer potentially to - worth pondering. i think we are moving closer potentially to a l

worth pondering. i think we are - moving closer potentially to a major war between — moving closer potentially to a major war between the _ moving closer potentially to a major war between the big _ moving closer potentially to a major war between the big powers. - moving closer potentially to a major war between the big powers. we . moving closer potentially to a major. war between the big powers. we have proxy— war between the big powers. we have proxy wars— war between the big powers. we have proxy wars happening _ war between the big powers. we have proxy wars happening in _ war between the big powers. we have proxy wars happening in europe - war between the big powers. we have proxy wars happening in europe and l proxy wars happening in europe and in the _ proxy wars happening in europe and in the middle — proxy wars happening in europe and in the middle east. _ proxy wars happening in europe and in the middle east. there _ proxy wars happening in europe and in the middle east. there could - proxy wars happening in europe and in the middle east. there could be i proxy wars happening in europe andj in the middle east. there could be a blockade _ in the middle east. there could be a blockade by— in the middle east. there could be a blockade by china _ in the middle east. there could be a blockade by china on _ in the middle east. there could be a blockade by china on taiwan. - blockade by china on taiwan. military— blockade by china on taiwan. military leaders _ blockade by china on taiwan. military leaders say- blockade by china on taiwan. military leaders say this - blockade by china on taiwan. military leaders say this is i blockade by china on taiwan. military leaders say this is a. military leaders say this is a strategically— military leaders say this is a strategically absolutely - military leaders say this is a . strategically absolutely crucial part of — strategically absolutely crucial part of the _ strategically absolutely crucial part of the world _ strategically absolutely crucial part of the world and - strategically absolutely crucial part of the world and china . strategically absolutely crucial part of the world and china isi part of the world and china is leading — part of the world and china is leading an _ part of the world and china is leading an ever— part of the world and china is leading an ever more - part of the world and china is. leading an ever more cohesive part of the world and china is- leading an ever more cohesive axis including _ leading an ever more cohesive axis including iran, _ leading an ever more cohesive axis including iran, russia— leading an ever more cohesive axis including iran, russia and - leading an ever more cohesive axis including iran, russia and north i including iran, russia and north korea _ including iran, russia and north korea farage— including iran, russia and north korea. farage was _ including iran, russia and north korea. farage was right - including iran, russia and north korea. farage was right that - including iran, russia and north - korea. farage was right that america has paid _ korea. farage was right that america has paid largely— korea. farage was right that america has paid largely taxpayers _ korea. farage was right that america has paid largely taxpayers for - korea. farage was right that america has paid largely taxpayers for the - has paid largely taxpayers for the defence _ has paid largely taxpayers for the defence of— has paid largely taxpayers for the defence of the _ has paid largely taxpayers for the defence of the liberal— has paid largely taxpayers for the defence of the liberal western - has paid largely taxpayers for the . defence of the liberal western order which _ defence of the liberal western order which i _ defence of the liberal western order which i think— defence of the liberal western order which i think is of— defence of the liberal western order which i think is of tremendous - which i think is of tremendous importance _ which i think is of tremendous importance to _ which i think is of tremendous importance to the _ which i think is of tremendous importance to the wider - which i think is of tremendousl importance to the wider world. europe — importance to the wider world. europe has— importance to the wider world. europe has been— importance to the wider world. europe has been free - importance to the wider world. europe has been free writing . importance to the wider world. i europe has been free writing on importance to the wider world. - europe has been free writing on that defence _ europe has been free writing on that defence spending _ europe has been free writing on that defence spending and _ europe has been free writing on that defence spending and i— europe has been free writing on that defence spending and i think- europe has been free writing on that defence spending and i think we - europe has been free writing on thatl defence spending and i think we have to be realistic— defence spending and i think we have to be realistic that _ defence spending and i think we have to be realistic that with _ defence spending and i think we have to be realistic that with that - to be realistic that with that context. _ to be realistic that with that context, with _ to be realistic that with that context, with our _ to be realistic that with that context, with our denuded i to be realistic that with that - context, with our denuded defence capacity. _ context, with our denuded defence capacity. it — context, with our denuded defence capacity. it is — context, with our denuded defence capacity, it is absolutely _ context, with our denuded defence capacity, it is absolutely crucial - capacity, it is absolutely crucial we stand — capacity, it is absolutely crucial we stand with _ capacity, it is absolutely crucial we stand with america. - capacity, it is absolutely crucial we stand with america. i- capacity, it is absolutely crucial we stand with america. i say. capacity, it is absolutely crucial l we stand with america. i say that capacity, it is absolutely crucial - we stand with america. i say that in a sense _ we stand with america. i say that in a sense reluctantly, _ we stand with america. i say that in a sense reluctantly, i'm _ we stand with america. i say that in a sense reluctantly, i'm not - 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