which is straight after this the renowned indian—born chef asma khan, who is programme. also a pioneer. you see it on the streets, she created the first all—female, high—end indian you see it in the restaurants. restaurant in the world. she says she was born cuisine on offer here. to set the world on fire. how does that work in a professional kitchen? with south asian food, and my guest today is the renowned indian—born chef asma khan, who is also a pioneer. restaurant in the world. she says she was born asma khan, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much. well, it is a great pleasure to be in your restaurant. i just wonder if the young to set the world on fire. asma, say, teenage asma, could see you now — with your own restaurant, a bit of a food guru in the united kingdom, a social activist as well —

would she believe it 00:01:01,411 --> 4294966103:13:29,429 could be possible? asma khan, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much. well, it is a great pleasure to be in your restaurant. i just wonder if the young asma, say, teenage asma, could see you now — with your own restaurant, a bit of a food guru in the united kingdom, a social activist as well — would she believe it could be possible? no, because the way that girls were brought up in a family like mine, and the way i felt my position in the family and the clan was, i didn't dare to imagine. i dreamt of it. i used to dream of my name in lights, i used to dream that mountains were calling out my name. i would never, ever say it. but somewhere deep in my heart, i always wanted to do something. i wanted everyone to understand

that there is justice, that it's not fair that girls are treated this way. but that it would take this route? i didn't know. yeah, and ijust wonder whether at that time, you invested your passion and your desire to change

you'd gone with your husband, who had an academic post in the uk. and you've been very candid about how lonely, how isolated, how depressed you felt in this new country, and you suddenly realised that one way to fill that hole in your life was to actually fill it was to actually fill it with the cooking and the food, with the cooking and the food, the flavour, the culture the flavour, the culture of the food from your homeland. of the food from your homeland. yes. yes. 30 years ago, a very 30 years ago, a very different world. different world. we've all forgotten. we've all forgotten. now, you know, you can now, you know, you can skype your dog in delhi, skype your dog in delhi, but at that time, you made but at that time, you made these phone calls. these phone calls. you were timing it to be you were timing it to be exactly three minutes. exactly three minutes. it was very expensive to fly. it was very expensive to fly. you couldn't call home easily. you couldn't call home easily. half the time, the phones half the time, the phones didn't work because of didn't work because of flooding in calcutta. flooding in calcutta.

there were no mobile phones. there were no mobile phones. you didn't see the face you didn't see the face of your parents. of your parents. my father wrote to me. my father wrote to me. i always kept one letter i always kept one letter unopened, so that when things unopened, so that when things got really tough, got really tough, i would open that letter. i would open that letter. that is the level that is the level of loneliness. of loneliness. and for all of us who've been and for all of us who've been through that, it's kind of, through that, it's kind of, you know, we just... you know, we just... it's that ugly time it's that ugly time in our lives. in our lives. we've forgotten we've forgotten about the isolation. about the isolation. it was tough. it was tough. so i think all of this backstory is important because what you have ultimately chosen to do is commit to being a professional cook with only women. and, actually, it seems only women from a south asian background who you can relate to, who many of them are so—called second daughters, as you were... yes. ..who were, from the very beginning of their lives, told that opportunity was limited, that there was little hope invested in them. yes. so would you say that your entire career has sort of been

a defiant message about how you will not accept the constraints put upon you and other women? yes, because from a very young age, i was told... my parents, you know, after the initial disappointment

collectives matter, that solidarity matters, that you've got to reach out to those that do not have a voice, whose voices you can amplify. find the hungry, find the needy and look and heal them because, to me, that transformed me. i grew in strength and i understood, i will be, one day, a name everyone will know. i am the warrior princess. and this change—maker

that you wanted to be, you very deliberately set out to, as you say, form a collective with other women who were finding life difficult in the uk. yes. south asian women, who were working as nannies, as cleaners, and you persuaded them... yes. yes. ..to join you in the kitchen, ..to join you in the kitchen, a professional kitchen. a professional kitchen. and the irony, i guess, and the irony, i guess, is that there's no way that is that there's no way that that would have ever that would have ever happened in india. happened in india. you wouldn't have worked you wouldn't have worked with these women because they with these women because they were from a very different were from a very different background and caste from you. background and caste from you. where would i have where would i have met them, for one? met them, for one? india has stratas, you know, india has stratas, you know, it's completely... it's completely... the society has stratas. the society has stratas. where would i have met where would i have met these kinds of women? these kinds of women? i would not have met them. i would not have met them. this is the great thing this is the great thing about london, that about london, that on the street, we met. on the street, we met. we met in the school, we met in the school, the schoolyard. the schoolyard. and this is the great leveller. and this is the great leveller. when i took them in the first when i took them in the first time, i rememberthey didn't time, i rememberthey didn't want to sit on my sofa, want to sit on my sofa, so we all sat on the floor. so we all sat on the floor. so i said, "if you're not going so i said, "if you're not going

to sit on the sofa with me, to sit on the sofa with me, "we'll sit on the floor "we'll sit on the floor and we'll have chai." and we'll have chai." and... and... but decades after you met them, but decades after you met them, they're still with you. they're still with you. they still work, they still work, many of them, here, many of them, here, at the darjeeling kitchen. yes. at the darjeeling kitchen. yes. do they regard you as the boss? do they regard you as the boss? no. no. i think that they all i think that they all regard me as someone regard me as someone extra in the kitchen, extra in the kitchen, causing trouble. causing trouble. no, but honestly, no, no, but honestly, no, there isn't a boss. there isn't a boss. one of the big things is, one of the big things is, i get paid the same as them... i get paid the same as them... ..so everyone in my kitchen ..so everyone in my kitchen is on the same pay rate. is on the same pay rate. really? really? what, do you mean even the dishwashers and the...? oh, yeah. i get paid the same as the dishwasher, the person who washes the dishes. mm. yes. tell me about the meaning of the food. you talk a lot about the soul that you put into your food, and i'm just wondering, really, what you mean by that. how can food be a vehicle for what's deepest inside you? absolutely, it is. just imagine, your touch, your sensibilities, your time.

that is invaluable. the most... the most expensive ingredient you put in a dish when

mm. and, yes, there are of course exceptions, but women and girls cook together. and that's the biggest difference, that girls hung around in the kitchen. men have been cooking as a profession, and there is that big difference because emotion is disconnected. you know, you say, "i'm less impressed by these top chefs who cook in a professional space, with every kind of gadget and with loads of assistants. i am not looking to cook to impress.

i'm not like a michelin—star chef, with their foams and their edible flowers. i am cooking to heal you." i mean, all of that sounds i mean, all of that sounds a little bit like you're a little bit like you're trying to make a point. trying to make a point. some might say that you even some might say that you even have a bit of a chip have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about these on your shoulder about these high—profile, male high—profile, male celebrity chefs. celebrity chefs. not at all. not at all. the world is big the world is big enough for everybody. enough for everybody. and, you know, good for them and, you know, good for them that they managed to make that they managed to make this into a different this into a different kind of cuisine. kind of cuisine. what they present are what they present are dissected sometimes to look dissected sometimes to look so french, and to not... so french, and to not... i am brown—skinned. i am brown—skinned. my food is brown. my food is brown. we don't try and hide our we don't try and hide our food in edible flowers. food in edible flowers. it's not a chip on my shoulder. it's not a chip on my shoulder. it's really trying to it's really trying to articulate that there articulate that there is a difference between how impossible to navigate is a difference between how women and men cook. women and men cook. there's a difference between home—cooked food and restaurant food. and restaurant food. just the whole word — just the whole word — indian food. india is massive when it indian food. comes to different culinary traditions. culinary traditions. look at just look at just

the north and south. the north and south. so, let's get back to the way so, let's get back to the way you've had to navigate you've had to navigate the restaurant business. the restaurant business. we've already talked we've already talked about the male celebrity chefs about the male celebrity chefs who suck up so much sort who suck up so much sort of publicity, get so much attention within the sort of publicity, get so much of professional cooking world. you've entered that you've entered that world yourself. world yourself. how difficult has it been how difficult has it been to navigate that world to navigate that world of high—end restaurants? of high—end restaurants? it is difficult, but it's not it is difficult, but it's not impossible to navigate through any profession where you're on the fringe. i am on the fringe of hospitality. a lot of hospitality in this country is like an all—male mayfair club, where women can turn up, but they're not life members. and i recognise the fact that i also run a very different style of food kitchen,

and i don't compare myself to anyone. also, because my race is so different. i don't run the same race as a white man. race as a white woman. i have to go through hurdles. i have to go through fire. i've come out glistening out of that and i won. well, you've come out fighting. yes. and you've made some enemies inside the world of sort of top—end cooking and chefs. marco pierre white is one. he, in 2019, talked about the fact that, in his opinion, female chefs were much more emotional than male chefs. he pointed out that they lacked the strength for key tasks like lifting heavy pans, and his conclusion was that that's why there are far fewer top women chefs internationally than men. you responded by saying, "like a three—day—old fish, these comments of his reek of patriarchy, and there is no place in kitchen, in the kitchen, for rotting

fish or chefs with these attitudes." do you like making enemies? no, but there was no reply to that comment by me, by him. so all of them have stayed silent. i will not stay silent. i will always call it out. i mean, and i have called out a lot of, you know, mainly male chefs, who have said inappropriate things. yeah, you've... to be honest, you've made a lot of accusations. you've talked about the endemic misogyny, sexism. you even talk about violence. you say you've spoken to many women working in top kitchens, who have told you that they have been abused. the sad thing is that we are in an industry where we're supposed to be hospitable. we are a service industry, and the fact that we are not even having this discussion. i'lljust give you an example — when there have been proved allegations of misogyny, of violence, of sexism, of racism, every female

michelin—star chef has kept quiet. this is a real problem. maybe because it's not their experience. it's not their experience, but you can speak up. the problem is, to expect the victims to change things is hard because that victim is most likely very low down in the pyramid, and we are expecting young girls and boys to speak up to change things. when you are in a position of power and you are secure, it is our moral duty to speak up. this is the industry that i love, that i'm part of, that i make my money from, that i've published books and, you know, i'm speaking to you, then this is an industry that i should care about. the selfishness of only worrying that this is not my problem because i am not being physically attacked, my daughter is not being physically attacked, is so wrong. but it sounds like an industry that, at times, you've considered leaving. just looking back at 2022. i know it was a tough time for you after covid,

and you said then, quote, "i am running on empty." you said, "i'm going to lose my restaurant lease soon. other sites are being blocked to me by an old boys�* club. it's very hard," you said, in your 50s "to keep pushing yourself this hard." yeah. are you close to giving up? not at all. i mean, that was a really hard time. it was also quite shocking that, uh, the kind of manoeuvring of vested interest to kind of... and also, landlords asking me, very openly, like, "do you have a business partner? do you have "venture capitalist money?" they were asking who the suit was in my life. in india, if i went somewhere and said, you know, "i want this lease" or whatever, they'd ask me my father's name, they'd ask me my husband's name, where my brother is, you know, where i live, my caste, my name. but i thought you said to me that london was so much better, so much easier to make... it is better, but when it comes to money, i% of vc money goes to women. the number of women who look

like me, who would get venture capitalist money, is zero. literally zero. it would be so low, it would not even register. it is very hard. it's hard for a female founder. i also must speak about ageism, because i started at a5, and the whole idea that, you know, young people would be able to raise money because they're

for themselves in a high—end restaurant environment, what can you offer these people? i offer hope. i offer hope that you will i offer hope that you will overcome, that irrespective overcome, that irrespective of what's happening... of what's happening... abba, my father, abba, my father, would always tell me — would always tell me — very deeply sufi man — very deeply sufi man — that in the darkness, that in the darkness, be that bird who sings be that bird who sings before dawn comes out. before dawn comes out. and as a child, he would and as a child, he would take me to the roof take me to the roof and show me the first rays and show me the first rays of light coming through. of light coming through. and he used to tell me, and he used to tell me, "night is never endless, beta". "night is never endless, beta". beta is daughter, child. beta is daughter, child. that it will always... to these women, do you sense that it will always... day will always follow night. day will always follow night. i have been through... i have been through... i have fallen more times i have fallen more times

than i can imagine, but i'm than i can imagine, but i'm very inspired by this whole... very inspired by this whole... you know, my whole life, i... you know, my whole life, i... there's a poem, you know, there's a poem, you know, where rabindranath tagore says, "go out into the storm where rabindranath tagore says, "go out into the storm and light your ribs and light your ribs with the light, with with the light, with the thunder and lightning, the thunder and lightning, so you light the path so you light the path for others." for others." i have always been driven by that. i have always been driven by that. so i will go to spaces so i will go to spaces where there is hunger, where there's deprivation, where there isn't hope, because i understand... i mean, having talked where there is hunger,

the kind of venomous conversations that you have around refugees is unacceptable. unacceptable. they are hungry, they are in difficult places, they are uprooted. and the fact that we cannot find it in our heart to reach out, to donate. i mean, the world food programme is really struggling financially... yeah. ..because of, you know, the number of, the donations are very low. government is not supporting them as much. and i have seen on the ground what a little bit of money,

the difference it can make. you know, hunger is not a weapon of war. hunger should not be used to siege people. you cannot do this. before we end, i want to take you back to where we began — being a second daughter in india, and how that filled you with a sense that you had to prove yourself to change the world, because second daughters aren't expected to do that. yeah. in the many decades since your birth, do you think things have changed? i'm just wondering, if you went back to india today — or you go back every year — is it different now? no, it isn't different. it's more subtle and there's more sophistication, the language used is less harsh, but there's still colourism, there's still gender bias. the birth of boys is celebrated. the birth of girls is still lamented. and the biggest problem is that girls, in a balance sheet for a family, the girls are the ones that cost

money because of dowry. and the honour of the family hinges on a girl, never the boy. so these things haven't changed. we still... the girl will not inherit the farm or the family house, and marriages break because there's no son. the heir is always the boy. you describe yourself on social media as, quote, "an immigrant and a proud londoner" but you've also said that you believe you may well go back to your — the land of your birth before you die. yes. will you go to india, set up a restaurant like this and cook, or is that not going to be possible for you? i don't think i'd go back home and cook, but at some point, i will go back to my land. i want to go back and work with women, encourage them to set up restaurants, cafes, to actually have a restaurant like this, but run by others. i want to use my life experience to go in and help my

women, because i think that... but do you think... sorry, but do you think india will accept you, asma khan, outspoken, a fighter, a rebel, a muslim? is that india going to embrace you, if you go home for good? i embrace india, i'm indian, so it doesn't matter who doesn't want to accept me. that's their problem, not mine. i mean, for generations, the dust that flies from the old bazaars of delhi is the ruh, the soul of my ancestors. for generations, we are there. who tells me i don't belong? i belong because that is my land. there's a big difference between what others will say to you. it is... i am absolutely indifferent to how others see. i write my own story. i'm the captain of my ship. nobody else gets into my ship and tells me i don't belong. anywhere and everywhere, i am free to go, and i feel i have the right. everybody has the right to be

who they want to be. you cannot live because someone else is telling you and puts you, that you belong here. you put them in a box. don't allow anyone else to write your story or put you in a box. asma khan, we have to end there, but thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you. hello. meteorologically speaking, sunday was the first day of winter. now, there were a number of showers around, but it was a pretty mild day. indeed, across wales, we had temperatures of 15.4 celsius recorded at both hawarden, in flintshire, and also in cardiff —

those temperatures way above the december average. and those mild weather conditions were brought to us by these southwesterly winds, which are still across a good part of the country. however, look at this band of rain sinking south across scotland. behind that, we start to see the winds turn more to a northerly direction — and it's those northerly winds that, through monday, will push this zone of colder air southwards. so, it will feel much colder as we go through the day, across northern areas in particular. so, the rain starts today — southern scotland, pushes southwards across northern england, reaches north wales and the midlands through the afternoon. brighter conditions follow, but it will be gusty around irish sea and north sea coasts, gusts of around 40—50mph. temperatures in england and wales about 8—11 celsius, so still relatively mild. through the afternoon, it turns colder for scotland and northern ireland — temperatures here around 4—6 celsius. and then, that cold air surges southwards — monday night, a much colder night than we've been used to, with a widespread frost.

so, a frosty and cold start to your day on tuesday, but with plenty of sunshine for most areas. however, band of rain is going to move in off the atlantic, so it turns wet in northern ireland, and eventually, the rain reaches western scotland, as well. temperatures really struggle — 4—7 celsius — it will be a chilly day on tuesday for most. then tuesday night, the rain starts to turn to snow — and that's especially the case in scotland, and especially for eastern areas, we could have some accumulations of snow, potentially bringing some localised disruption. but ultimately, the snow will turn back to rain, as milder air works its way in. and, as we head through wednesday, that milder weather pushes in from the west, we'll have a lot of low cloud, some mist and fog. quite a murky—looking day, perhaps turning a bit brighter as we head into the afternoon for some. but it's another day with struggling temperatures, particularly for central and eastern areas. starts to turn a bit milder in the west. and then, thursday and friday, areas of low pressure on the way could bring some very strong gusts of wind,

but certainly will be bringing some pretty wet weather our way.

live from washington. live from washington. this is bbc news. this is bbc news.

president biden has pardoned his son he was facing sentencing this month on gun crime and tax convictions. protestors take to the streets once more in georgia, as the prime minister denies suspending talks to join the eu. syria's president meets the iranian foreign minister in damascus, welcoming support against a rebel offensive that's taken large parts of the country. hello.