this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. internal division has cost the palestinian people dear. the feud between the secular and islamist political movements, between fatah and hamas, exposed weaknesses that israel has ruthlessly exploited. now, more than a year on from hamas�*s october 7th attack on israel and the idf�*s overwhelming military response, what options do palestinians have?

well, my guest is arab barghouthi, son of marwan barghouthi, imprisoned in israel for murder, seen by many palestinians as a leader—in—waiting. could new leadership re—inject hope into the palestinian body politic? arab barghouthi, in ramallah, welcome to hardtalk. thank you so much for having me. it's a great pleasure to talk to you today. let us start with the situation your father is in. i believe you were 11 years old when your father was taken by the israelis.

he's been imprisoned inside israel ever since. i know your family fights hard to gain access to him, to be allowed to see him in that israeli prison, but when was the last time any family member saw him? the last time anyone saw him from the family was two years ago. i think that it's very important for the viewers to understand that this is something that has been happening way before october 7th, the denying of access to my father and what we call the character assassination of marwan barghouthi, or making it a taboo to even mention his name, or to talk about him in the media, has been something that we had to deal with for more than 22 years now. we haven't seen him in more than two years.

the lawyer hasn't been able to access him — only for three times since october 7th. and since october 7th, he's been through some of the most vicious torture tactics by the israelis, and attacks, because of what he represents to the palestinian people. are you able to have phone calls with him, any kind of contact, even if you're not allowed into the prison? no, never. i think, you know, even before october 7th, i could barely see him every two to three years, which is, of course, illegal by the international law. i used to see him twice until i turned 16. after turning 16, i barely see him once every two to three years. the same goes for my siblings and my mother. my mother was banned once for four full years by the israeli government, just for supporting her husband in his hunger strike in 2017, and this is something

that we have to deal with and had to deal with for more than two decades now. it has been made plain by you and others that you believe the israelis in the prison, the guards, have beaten your father and abused him in a variety of different ways. it should be said, the israelis categorically deny that. they say that the prison authorities have never violated their law or international law in the treatment of your father. i mean, of course, they're lying. they're lying, just like they're lying about thousands of cases that they have committed against palestinian people. after october 7th, my father was... the head of ofer prison, where he was, came to him, and in front of all other prisoners, he asked him to put his hands behind his back and to sit on his knees,

which he refused, of course, because the head of ofer prison just wanted to send a message to all the prisoners that, if i can humiliate your leader, i can humiliate you all. when he refused, they forced him to put his hands behind his back, which got his shoulder dislocated. then they moved him into solitary confinement, into another prison. they kept moving him to prison after prison, they put speakers at the door of his cell, running the israeli national anthem for days at the highest volume to prevent him from sleeping, putting a spotlight in his face, denying him from going into breaks. putting him in a very tiny cell that could barely fit his body. on march 6th, he was attacked by three or four prison guards who dragged him into an area that doesn't have a camera surveillance, and they started beating him up viciously and he was not... he didn't get any medical treatment.

at the end of october, the lawyer finally has been able to see him again. he saw him and we learned very disturbing news that on september 9th as well, he was in megiddo prison, in the solitary confinement still, and he was attacked by three prison guards who started beating him up. he had ribs, you know, broken. he had injuries in his eye, in his forehead, in his leg. and it was very, very sad to hear that. arab barghouthi, i guess i should point out that your father was able to petition an israeli court, based on the complaints that he was putting forward about abuse in prison. the court did not uphold his complaints and said that they could see no evidence of these violations of the law. but i guess what i'm really interested in is something very powerful your father said some time ago.

he said, quote, "our chains will be broken before we are." now, you're not able to see your dad and you haven't seen him for an awful long time, but, you know, of course, that he is ageing and that he, whatever the truth of the allegations you've made and others have made, he is in an extraordinarily difficult position in prison, in solitary confinement. do you fear that that may not be true, that he may be broken before his chains are? of course not. i think that it's very important to understand that the first time my father was put in prison was 50 years ago, and at the age of 18, he was also put in prison for five years, and he was interrogated viciously. and i still remember his story with the interrogator who kicked him in the groin area, telling him that a terrorist like you shouldn't be able to produce terrorists in this world. and i'm here to take my father's message and to tell

you that it's not about, you know, terrorism or anything like that. it's about a fair struggle for freedom and for independence. and these are the values that my father raised me on. i've never seen someone like him. whenever i see him, i've never seen my father complaining. even when i went to him when he was in solitary confinement years ago. he's never complained. he was always smiling. he was always positive. and the lawyer said that the last time he went to him, he was shocked that he had his head high. he was smiling because he wanted to show the prison guards that no matter what they do, he will always be strong because he's taking this strength from his people and from the fair struggle that we're going through now. you say this is not about terrorism, but of course, as far as israel is concerned, it absolutely is about terrorism, because yourfather was convicted in a court inside israel for the murder

of five different individuals, three of them in tel aviv, two of them in the occupied west bank. as far as israel is concerned, your father wasn't just, as they put it, a terrorist, he was the leader of an extremely potent terrorist organisation, the al—aqsa brigades. well, i'm really glad that you brought this up, because it's very important for your viewers to understand that this was a kangaroo trial, just like nelson mandela, and just like many other leaders who were going against oppression. i think it's very important to understand that the conviction rate in palestine is more than 99% against palestinians by the israeli court. the confession rate is also very, very high because of the torture that the palestinian prisoners go through.

and when you say he was convicted for murder, first of all, even the israeli trial never said that he was the one who did that. they said he planned, he funded, he did this, he did that... he was the mastermind. and i believe they presented evidence which suggested that he had authorised financial payments to what the israelis, again, called terrorist killers within the al—aqsa brigades. they made it plain that, as far as they were concerned, there was a trail which indicated your dad's leadership of al—aqsa brigades. which is a lie because he denied to have even a defence because he didn't recognise the legitimacy of the israeli court of putting a palestinian parliament member and the palestinian political leader on trial. he is someone who never denied his role in leading, being one of the leaders of the second intifada, because he believes in palestinians�* rights of resistance. and not only him, even the international law says that, as oppressed and as occupied people, we have the right to resist our occupier. but the problem is that,

you know, media outletsjust like yours calls us terrorists whenever we resist our occupiers. so, if we can't resist our occupier, what are we supposed to do? well, are we supposed to just give them the land and give them our homes? it's a very important question to address. arguably, even more important to address after october 7th, 2023, than it was before. and of course, it's a question which has underpinned the palestinian situation for many, many decades. this is what your father wrote in 2002, way back, 22 years ago, in the washington post. he said, "while i and the fatah movement strongly oppose "attacks and the targeting of civilians inside israel..." then he said, "ourfuture neighbour," which is

an interesting phrase. he said, "i reserve the right to protect myself "and to resist the israeli occupation of my country." given that really interesting phrasing there from your dad, what do you think he would have made of the hamas assault on southern israel on october 7th? i think this is a very important point, because this wasn't the first time, nor the last time that my father went on the record to say that he doesn't support the targeting of civilians, regardless of who they are, what their nationality is, or ethnicity or even religion. i think it's very important to remember that my father was the one who initiated the prisoners�* document that got signed in 2006, and this is a very important and significant document, and historical document, because it was the first document that gets signed by all palestinian political factions, including hamas and many other...

liberation party and many others. and it stated clearly that resistance should be limited to the �*67 borders and civilians shouldn't be targeted. i think these are... i guess, arab, one key phrase, which i tried to pinpoint in your dad's words back then, was that phrase about israel, quote, "our future neighbour." the truth is, no hamas leader would ever, could ever, use a phrase like that. and ijust wonder, given what you know of hamas and what you saw on october 7th of 2023, whether you, yourfamily and many palestinians, actually, feel that that act of october 7th was extraordinarily damaging to the politics that your father believed in. well, i think that it's very important to note that my father was one of the people who negotiated with the israelis in the �*90s.

and he used to say that, for example, oslo is an opportunity that needs to be given an opportunity. but of course, five years later, at the end of the �*90s, him and all the palestinian leadership understood and realised that we were being played by the israeli government, because they doubled the number of settlers and settlements. and i think it's also fair to say that i didn't have access to my father to discuss with him, unfortunately, what happened recently, and i would also point that it's weird to me that whenever i talk to any western journalist, they always focus on october 7th. they never want to talk about what happened after october 7th, the crimes and the genocide and the killing and the oppression against the palestinian people and the violence that is being shamelessly shown in front of the whole world. and we're still talking about october 7th,

as if the world stopped there and started from there. i absolutely want to talk to you about the context that has been created since october 7th. do you believe that your father's vision of what could be a two—state solution, what could be peaceful coexistence between two peoples, between the mediterranean sea and thejordan river, is that vision still viable, still relevant, in your view? i think it is. i think that, if you ask my generation, i think that you will find people who despise the word "two—state solution", unfortunately. because, for us, it'sjust a magical word that the western governments and western leaders use, as you know, to hypnotise the palestinian people into believing that we have a future in here, or we have a future, a future state is coming in the coming period. ithink...

but if you look at the israeli government and the current israeli officials, they're very public about their opposing to the idea of a palestinian state and without the idea of building a palestinian state, i don't see a path for peace in the middle east. i do think that my father represents a solution rather than a problem and a source of stability, not only for palestine but also for the whole middle east, because he is someone who is willing to go for political solutions and he supports political solutions, but he's not someone who is willing to compromise on palestinians�* rights. and with the lunatics who we have in the israeli government, it�*s very obvious that they don�*t want and not interested in any political solution that might bring peace and security to everyone that is living on this land. yeah, well, what you characterise as genocide, of course, is now before the international court ofjustice. the israelis adamantly, categorically deny that that word is relevant to anything they have done in gaza. and i guess it�*s going to take months, if not years, for the international court

ofjustice to give a ruling on that particular word. but let�*s leave that to one side and let�*s just think about your dad�*s own situation. some have called him the potential nelson mandela. i think you�*ve even used that phrase yourself. but isn�*t the truth that there are powerfulforces inside the palestinian authority, led by mahmoud abbas, who see your dad as a threat, as a potential rival, and who, actually, at various times in the last few years, have actually worked against the idea that he should be released from jail? well, i always say that i don�*t think any palestinian in their right mind would oppose the idea of my father being released. i think if anyone, if any palestinian, opposes the idea of my father or any other palestinian political prisoner to be released, they need to go and test their dna. i think that our direction should always be against the illegal occupation. of course we have

internal problems. an internal division that is shameful for every palestinian. we want it to end. we want unity for the palestinian people. and this is why palestinians have shown their support for my father, because he is a unifying figure. he is someone who is willing to take initiatives to bring people together and to bring the palestinian people together. and this is exactly what his focus will be... thank you, sorry to interrupt, but on a point of detail, there has been much discussion in recent months of whether there would ever be a deal to get the hostages still held by hamas in gaza out, in return, partly, one part of the deal would be a mass release of prisoners being held by israel, palestinian prisoners. have hamas indicated to you and your family that they regard your father, marwan barghouthi, as someone who will be at the top of any new prisoner release list?

we�*re very positive that any exchange or prisoner swap that will happen will include my father. i think that it only makes sense. we think that the resistance will commit to releasing him and, hopefully, all palestinian political prisoners. this is something that we dream of as families of the palestinian political prisoners. and it pains me so much when i hear, you know, in the media, everyone focused on the israeli hostages, and they call them hostages, and they call the palestinian children, who are 1a and 15, prisoners, and the women that are illegally taken from their homes, from the west bank, from gaza. i hope that this ends, i hope for everyone to be released, israeli hostages and palestinian hostages that are being held, and i do... we�*re very positive that this will happen as well. you�*re positive even though you know the nature

of the current israeli government, led by benjamin netanyahu, including some ultra right—wing ministers in very senior positions involving national security and other key ministries. do you really think they will ever countenance releasing your father? i think they will have to. i do think that they will have to. i think even israelis in their right minds, if they look at the future and they want even the right, you know, the benefit of the israeli state itself, they would know that my father represents a solution. i know that for someone like netanyahu, ben—gvir and smotrich, he represents a threat because he speaks of, you know, what�*s legal by international law. but hopefully, they will be put in the corner to make a prisoner swap that would release all palestinian political prisoners. what do you make of the international response to what has happened in the last year and more to the palestinian people?

if we�*re talking about the people, i think that i feel humbled and proud of the free people around the world who are protesting for the rights of the palestinian people. i see a glimpse of hope in there. i think that if you�*re a palestinian, especially in your 20s, in your 30s, it�*s very normal to feel so...depressed, and, you know, down, because... and disappointed with the international community and with the western governments themselves. i think that the western governments, they keep lecturing us about the human rights and the freedom and all these values, but when it comes to the palestinian people, everything changes, because they are supporting the israelis, no matter what, unconditionally. it�*s very interesting to me that, you know, everyone is asking about accountability

of the palestinians who commit any violence against the israelis, but we never hear about accountability for the israelis. i don�*t recall hearing about soldiers being put in prison for the crimes that they are committing in the west bank and in gaza. i do think that there is hope with the new generation that are being raised on the right, and we are hopeful of that. i have spoken to some palestinians. i spoke to motaz azaiza not so long ago, the young photographer in gaza who captured some of the early images of the israeli bombardment. he�*s now out of gaza. but he said to me, quite frankly, given what has happened to his home, he struggles to feel any hope any more, and he feels many palestinians in gaza mightjust choose to leave if they were given the choice. what about you, as a young palestinian in the west bank, an educator, a man whose father is in prison? do you still have hope or not? you know, my father

used to always tell me that we palestinians don�*t have the privilege of being hopeless, unfortunately. sometimes you feel down, sometimes you feel weak, sometimes you feel you just don�*t want to do it any more, but i don�*t think we have the privilege of doing that. we have to keep going. we have to keep, you know, struggling for our rights. and we are oppressed people. we have a noble cause. and this is what my father raised me on. you know, iwas, as you said, 11 when my father was taken. i had to live this life with a trauma of having my father away from me, of being a member of a family that has a political prisoner in it. and the israelis make sure that you are suffering as the family, as much as the prisoners themselves. but that only created in me more and more determination towards working for the palestinian freedom. and i know that my generation, yes, we are feeling weak and disappointed and all

of that, but we will be the ones who will free palestine, because my father�*s biggest pain is that myself and my generation are not living better than his generation. and i think that, you know, if we are not able to do so, i will make sure that my children and their children are doing the same, because palestinian identity will always live and we will have our freedom because we are not an exception from any other nation that deserves to live with freedom and dignity. arab barghouthi, thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk from ramallah.

hello there. well, it was wet and windy on thursday, and the weather is about to turn even worse still as we head into the weekend with our next named storm, storm darragh, barrelling in from the west. damaging gusts of wind, that�*s what we�*re most concerned about, but also the risk of flooding, especially in the north—west. and there will be some snowfall over the higher ground of scotland. but friday, a fairly quiet day of weather — the calm before the storm — particularly for the eastern half of the uk. it�*s a cold start to the morning compared to how mild it was on thursday. the sunshine lasting longest in the east, high cloud pushing eastwards and turning very wet, very windy by the end of the afternoon across northern ireland and for these western coasts too. temperatures staying in single figures, so a lot cooler than on thursday. but here comes the storm on friday night into saturday, deep area of low pressure, tight squeeze on the isobars —

first down towards irish sea coasts and then the strength of the winds transfers to north sea—facing coasts on saturday afternoon. there are plenty of weather warnings in force, but this is the most serious, an amber warning for damaging gusts of wind, gusts exceeding 70 to 80 miles an hour, perhaps, on some irish sea coasts. within these areas, we�*re likely to see coastal overtopping, transport disruption and even trees down. so this is the small hours, then, of saturday — blizzard—like conditions over the higher ground of scotland, even perhaps some snow to lower levels and across the pennines and the cumbrian fells. the rain will be relentless in the north—west, but it�*s mostly the strength of the winds we�*re concerned about. this is how we�*re starting off the day on saturday. now, if you�*ve got travel plans — or indeed pre—christmas plans, perhaps — then do keep checking the forecast. it will be very windy. even inland across england and wales, we�*re expecting gusts of 50 to 60 miles an hour. the winds easing a little through the afternoon for irish sea coasts but picking up for north sea —facing coasts. coastal overtopping expected across parts of norfolk, and these will be the day�*s temperatures —

not that you�*ll notice the temperature too much. it will feel highly unpleasant outside and there�*ll be a lot of added wind chill, too. now, the area of low pressure pulls away as we head into sunday. high pressure builds in behind, but there�*s a brisk northerly wind and it certainly is going to feel cold and there�*ll be a lot of added wind chill, too. windiest towards the eastern half of the uk, plenty more showers piling down on that wind, and temperatures for most will stay in single figures into the start of next week. bye— bye.

live from washington, this is bbc news. the syrian city of hama has fallen to rebels in the second major blow in a week to president bashar al—assad. police in new york release new pictures of a suspect they want to question in connection with the killing of a us health insurance boss. the french president rules out resigning after the fall of his prime minister, and says he will nominate a new pm in the days ahead. hello, i�*m caitriona perry. you are very welcome. islamist rebels have made another breakthrough in their surprise offensive against the syrian government and seized a second major city, hama. the syrian army says it has

withdrawn its forces there,