this is bbc news. the headlines: the syrian army says it's boosting the deployment of forces around damascus as rebel fighters continue their advance on the capital from the north and the south. state media deny reports that president assad has fled the city, where protesters appear to have toppled a statue of the president's late father. the notre dame cathedral in paris re—opens in the presence of leaders from around the world, five years after it was badly damaged by fire. one of the leaders in attendance was us president—elect donald trump, who met prince william following the ceremony. president zelensky of ukraine also attended. two men have been killed by trees falling on their vehicles

during storm darragh. now on bbc news, political thinking with nick robinson. hello and welcome to political thinking, a conversation with rather than a newsy interrogation of, someone who shapes our political thinking about what has shaped theirs. when the obituary of my guest on political thinking this week is written, it is pretty likely in its first paragraph to include one phrase: "i agree with nick". those words were uttered by then prime minister gordon brown in the 2010 election leaders�* debate, and in many ways, they signal the transformation of the leader of a relatively small third—party

to the man who became deputy prime minister to david cameron during the coalition years. sir nick soon found that in government, people often did not agree with him, which may be one reason his party got so punished in the election that followed. he eventually lost his seat as a member of parliament, but since then, he has gone on to be at the side of another very powerful individual. he is president of global affairs for matter, a company founded by mark zuckerberg, who of course founded facebook, and now involves notjust founded facebook, and now involves not just that incredibly powerful social media platform, but also instagram and whatsapp as well. —— meta. nick clegg, welcome to political thinking. -- meta. nick clegg, welcome to political thinking.— political thinking. great to have an introduction - political thinking. great to | have an introduction where political thinking. great to - have an introduction where you start about my obituary! i�*m turning 58 injanuary, but it�*s not exactly where i thought you would go! i not exactly where i thought you would no! , ., i. would go! i “ust thought you should be — would go! i just thought you should be prepared! - would go! i just thought you should be prepared! start i would go! i just thought you j should be prepared! start at the end. exactly! exactl i just y- exactly! just remindingmyself in the introduction, i reminded, there are plenty of people who

believe you are the first politician i have probably interviewed on this show who is probably more powerful outside politics than they were inside. no! well, we can come to that. these big tech companies are, of course, huge in scale and size. it is quite difficult to get your head around it. today, 100 billion whatsapp messages will be sent and communicated around the world. that is just on one app. there are now, what, 11 trillion dollar companies around the world. most of them are american, a lot are big tech companies. they are able to spend things on things like a! infrastructure that even governments cannot. that is all true, but i always say, if you are in power in government, certainly in this country, you have a say over everything from the history curriculum to weather our military goes into conflict or not. but weather our military goes into conflict or not.— conflict or not. but look at the numbers. _ conflict or not. but look at the numbers. you - conflict or not. but look at the numbers. you gave i conflict or not. but look at the numbers. you gave usj conflict or not. but look at - the numbers. you gave us some.

$1.5 trillion is the current market capitalisation of meta, bigger than the saudi gdp, bigger than the saudi gdp, bigger than the netherlands and turkey, almost as big as australia.— turkey, almost as big as australia. , , ., australia. yes, the size of it, the scale _ australia. yes, the size of it, the scale is _ australia. yes, the size of it, the scale is quite _ the scale is quite extraordinary. i remember talking tojeremy hunt when he was chancellor and talking about the whole new layer of ai technology, generative ai technology, generative ai technology, which requires these very, very multi—billion dollar investments into data centres and what are called gpus, the sort of compute power that runs the training models. you need a lot of water and energy and so on. i was saying to him that these individual american companies are spending money on that new sort of piping of the online world on a scale that even a major economy like the uk can�*t afford on its own. like the uk can't afford on its own. �* , ., , ., like the uk can't afford on its own. as a proud liberal, i think, still, _ own. as a proud liberal, i think, still, small- own. as a proud liberal, i think, still, small el... i own. as a proud liberal, i. think, still, small el... and endangered _ think, still, small el... and endangered species, - think, still, small el... and endangered species, but i think, still, small el... fific endangered species, but one which i think deserves a

hearing! when you look back at the conversations you and i had... when i was in politics. when i was in politics. when you are running for office, when you are deputy prime minister, indeed. the world has transformed since that. simple question, where on earth did it all go wrong? well, with the benefit of hindsight, i think as a country, for me, two big moments stand out, and i think if you are a political scientist from mars, these moments really stand out for this island nation of ours. first, the catastrophe of 2008. i think people often still underestimate how much 2008... it was a macro economic shock which reduce the size of the british economy by 6%, and that is a huge, huge shock, then almost straight after the coalition, you have the next vast shot, which of course was brexit, which is projected to reduce the size of the economy by 4%. and in my view, what we did, if you look back on it,

was a sort of rescue operation, and from 2012, 13, 1a, was a sort of rescue operation, and from 2012,13,14,15, actually, it was highly successful. the british economy was the fastest growing economy in the g7, and can ijust finished this point, it is very important, and that literally went into reverse the moment brexit happen. so when i hear rachel reeves and keir starmer say there has been no growth, it is just not true. we actually restored g7 leading growth rates to this economy by the mid point of the coalition. so i think looking back on it now, it was those two tent pole moments of 20 oh and 2016. i was broadly politically active within those two points. —— 2008. in within those two points. -- 2008. ., , , ., ., 2008. in a sense, i meant what has gone — 2008. in a sense, i meant what has gone wrong — 2008. in a sense, i meant what has gone wrong for _ 2008. in a sense, i meant what has gone wrong for liberalism i has gone wrong for liberalism around the world, a broader point. but a tiny coder, if you are back in politics, does that mean you would say go back into the eu? . ., , the eu? 0h, clearly the united kinudom the eu? 0h, clearly the united kingdom needs _ the eu? 0h, clearly the united kingdom needs to _ the eu? 0h, clearly the united kingdom needs to go - the eu? 0h, clearly the united kingdom needs to go back. - the eu? 0h, clearly the united| kingdom needs to go back. for what it�*s worth, my own view,

they may be unfashionable view is, the fundamental physics, as my engineerfriends in is, the fundamental physics, as my engineer friends in silicon valley say about any situation, is that the uk will have to re—architect a rapprochement, a re—entry into the eu in some shape orform. re-entry into the eu in some shape or form.— re-entry into the eu in some shape or form. when you are in olitics, shape or form. when you are in politics. you — shape or form. when you are in politics, you were _ shape or form. when you are in politics, you were no _ shape or form. when you are in politics, you were no friend - shape or form. when you are in politics, you were no friend of l politics, you were no friend of the great media barons, rupert murdoch... the great media barons, rupert murdoch-"— the great media barons, rupert murdoch... they were not great friends of _ murdoch... they were not great friends of me _ murdoch... they were not great friends of me either! _ friends of me either! well, quite. rather mia... a headline in the daily mail after the debate a mention, do you remember it? a daily mail headline? they were so many notorious ones! i think there was one about clegg and nazi slur on britain. yes, i think they�*re most choice one was a double pledge spread with a very unflattering photo and a huge headline that said, is there anything british about this man! —— double page. dutch heritage! how dare i! what do you say to those people who say, you are working for someone more powerful, much more powerful than rupert

murdoch, and mark zuckerberg, alongside elon musk, of course, who we will talk about, is someone who does control the global conversation? they are able to say what you can say and what you can�*t say, though they have very different approaches, of course. yes. the way i look at it is this. if you are a newspaper editor, and you come from the industry, and you know this better than i do, and i don�*t mean it facetiously, but it is quite a paternalistic model. it is basically editors sitting in the proverbial sweets in fleet suite, basically deciding —— suites in fleet street, and they decide what people see and page one, two, three, and what is prominent and not prominent. the whole point of social media, which is what you have this congenital tension between social media and what is called the legacy media, is that it flip that around. it gives

users the agency and empowers everyday people to say what they like. in a sense, they become their own publishers. and you have taken very differentjudgments, mark zuckerberg, with your advice, to the decisions, for example, a elon musk, who famously bought twitter and said he would remove all the censorship from it. you called him a... you called x a one—man hyper partisan or ideological hobbyhorse. could you tell us what you really think?! well, i don�*t use it much, and i�*m not sure if you use it, but if you do use it, you can�*t move for want of tripping over stuff from the person who now privately owns it, and i think... privately owns it, and i think- - -_ privately owns it, and i think... ., ., ., think... is he a threat to democracy? _ democracy? i think elon musk is obviously now playing an outsized role in both the election and the formation now of the new us administration, and i think we will see. he has a choice. he can be either an avid and

well—heeled supporter, which is what he seems, at least as far as i can make out, to be, or he can try to become a sort of political... you know... dictator. political... you know... dictator-— political... you know... dictator. ., ., , ,, dictator. no! a sort of puppet master, dictator. no! a sort of puppet master. going _ dictator. no! a sort of puppet master, going beyond - dictator. no! a sort of puppetj master, going beyond trump, deciding the next republican candidate on the one after that and so forth. and i think they leave the former is something we are fairly familiar with, people with means getting involved in politics. the latter, of course, is quite different to the general tradition of american democracy, which is about keeping a certain... people might argue it is exactly what liberals came into office, divisions stop in that sense. , office, divisions stop in that sense.- which - office, divisions stop in that sense.- which is - office, divisions stop in that sense. yes. which is why... you must face _ sense. yes. which is why... you must face it _ sense. yes. which is why... you must face it day _ sense. yes. which is why... you must face it day by _ sense. yes. which is why... you must face it day by day, - sense. jazz which is why... you must face it day by day, you don�*t work for elon musk, but 153