there are bigger colonies elsewhere in the uk, but any new group, especially with successful pupping numbers, is for many a good conservation story. jo black, bbc news at orford ness. time for a look at the weather. here's simon king. and if you want to continue watching the bbc news at ten, please turn over to bbc one or you can watch on iplayer. next, it's newsnight. tomorrow, justice secretary shabana mahmood will announce the government's plans to overhaul britain's prisons. we'll ask an ex—offender — and an ex—prison inspector — will it work?

and as reform bags a billionaire defection from the tories, are the other parties getting more nervous about nigel farage? hello and welcome to newsnight — the home of illuminating insights and interviews. later we'll be talking to our panel, oli dugmore and alex phillips. but, as the government prepares to announce its ten—year prisons strategy, tonight we're focusing on how labour aims to crack the problems at the heart of the criminaljustice system. with us, nick hardwick, one time chief inspector of prisons for england and wales, and prison reform commentator matthew torbitt. nick's here too.

what is in this new strategy? as you are saying. — what is in this new strategy? as you are saying. a — what is in this new strategy? as you are saying. a big _ what is in this new strategy? as you are saying, a big announcement - what is in this new strategy? as you are saying, a big announcement by i are saying, a big announcement by shabana mahmood tomorrow, the headline is that the labour government will spend £2.3 billion over the next two years on prison bills. and the target is opening up of 14,000 bills. and the target is opening up of 1a,000 new places by 2031. bills. and the target is opening up of “1,000 new places by 2031. that will mainly break down as 61100 places in four new prisons, and 61100 places in four new prisons, and 61100 places in four new prisons, and 61100 places in new blocks on current sites. let's look at the screens now. to understand this, we really need to see this as part of a twin track strategy. there is shabana mahmood, the first bit is the capacity strategy, the new places. the second part of the sentencing review, being carried out by the former conservative justice secretary david gauke. as we can see, fewer prison sentences for less serious offences, but ensuring that

there are spaces for the most serious offenders to serve sentences in prison. the bottom line is, fewer people will be going to prison. 0n people will be going to prison. on such a hot political potato, you can imagine there's a lot of politics around this. what is thejustice secretary saying? tomorrow she will say the last government pretended they could send people away for longer and longer, without building the prisons they promised. this strategy reveals that their prison building plans were years delayed and nearly 5 billion over budget. they left our prisons in crisis, on the edge of collapse, and from the conservatives, who knew counterpart robertjenrick, saying labour could be maximising court capacity and expert icing the deportation of foreign criminals, but they are rushing to release criminals. it is a little wonder that career criminals pop champagne and declare they are labour voters for life. lets pick that up with matthew torbitt and nick hardwick. it sounds like big numbers, £2.3 billion,

111,000 like big numbers, £2.3 billion, “1,000 new prison places. is it going to fix the problem? it’s 14,000 new prison places. is it going to fix the problem? it's a lot of money- — going to fix the problem? it's a lot of money- i _ going to fix the problem? it's a lot of money. i think _ going to fix the problem? it's a lot of money. i think the _ going to fix the problem? it's a lot of money. i think the total- going to fix the problem? it's a lot of money. i think the total spend i going to fix the problem? it's a lot i of money. i think the total spend on new prison — of money. i think the total spend on new prison places has gone up, both conservative and labour, from 5 billion_ conservative and labour, from 5 billion up— conservative and labour, from 5 billion up to 10 billion in total. they— billion up to 10 billion in total. they are — billion up to 10 billion in total. they are going to run out of space again— they are going to run out of space again by— they are going to run out of space again by 2027 and they have to do something — again by 2027 and they have to do something to solve that. the reason we are _ something to solve that. the reason we are spending all of that money is not because we are sending more people _ not because we are sending more people to — not because we are sending more people to prison, it is because we are sending — people to prison, it is because we are sending people to prison for a bit iongen — are sending people to prison for a bit longer. so, will it work? well, if they— bit longer. so, will it work? well, if they can — bit longer. so, will it work? well, if they can get it built, it will enable — if they can get it built, it will enable us _ if they can get it built, it will enable us to do that. will it reduce crime, _ enable us to do that. will it reduce crime, act — enable us to do that. will it reduce crime, act as— enable us to do that. will it reduce crime, act as aide to terence? i don't _ crime, act as aide to terence? i don't think so. it may satisfy our desire _ don't think so. it may satisfy our desire for— don't think so. it may satisfy our desire for punishment. —— act as a deterrent — desire for punishment. —— act as a deterrent. would we rather do that than spend it on schools, hospitals and the _ than spend it on schools, hospitals and the other things, that is the political— and the other things, that is the political question. this and the other things, that is the political question.— and the other things, that is the political question. this is england and wales. _

political question. this is england and wales, but _ political question. this is england and wales, but scotland - political question. this is england and wales, but scotland faces - and wales, but scotland faces similar issues, but prisons are devolved. when it comes to this, the government seems to be saying that we have to stops sending as many people to prison, are you saying that? �* , ., , people to prison, are you saying that? �* , . , . ., , , that? it's a bit unclear why they announced _ that? it's a bit unclear why they announced the _ that? it's a bit unclear why they announced the prison _ that? it's a bit unclear why they announced the prison building i announced the prison building programme in such detail before we have the _ programme in such detail before we have the results of the sentencing review~ _ have the results of the sentencing review. because you would think that the sentencing review will determine what capacity is needed. this the sentencing review will determine what capacity is needed.— what capacity is needed. this is the one bein: what capacity is needed. this is the one being run _ what capacity is needed. this is the one being run by — what capacity is needed. this is the one being run by david _ what capacity is needed. this is the one being run by david gorka, - what capacity is needed. this is the l one being run by david gorka, former tory mp? one being run by david gorka, former to mp? ., , ., ., tory mp? that is not clear to me. some of the _ tory mp? that is not clear to me. some of the less _ tory mp? that is not clear to me. some of the less serious - tory mp? that is not clear to me. | some of the less serious offences, they wiii— some of the less serious offences, they will deal with in the community, with better electronic surveillance, perhaps alternatives to prison — surveillance, perhaps alternatives to prison. but they want to make sure _ to prison. but they want to make sure they— to prison. but they want to make sure they have the space for the more _ sure they have the space for the more serious offenders. it's very tight. _ more serious offenders. it's very tight. even— more serious offenders. it's very tight, even doing that, by their own admission— tight, even doing that, by their own admission they cannot build the new prisons _ admission they cannot build the new prisons quickly enough to cope with the demand that is already baked

into the _ the demand that is already baked into the system. the prisoners that are atready — into the system. the prisoners that are already sentenced.— are already sentenced. matthew torbitt, you _ are already sentenced. matthew torbitt, you are _ are already sentenced. matthew torbitt, you are an _ are already sentenced. matthew torbitt, you are an adviser- are already sentenced. matthew torbitt, you are an adviser to i are already sentenced. matthewl torbitt, you are an adviser to the labour government. former adviser, apologies. you had a much earlier interaction with the criminal justice system yourself, just tell us about what happened. i justice system yourself, just tell us about what happened.- us about what happened. i was homeless _ us about what happened. i was homeless as _ us about what happened. i was homeless as a _ us about what happened. i was homeless as a teenager, - us about what happened. i wasj homeless as a teenager, didn't us about what happened. i was homeless as a teenager, didn't get on with— homeless as a teenager, didn't get on with nry— homeless as a teenager, didn't get on with my parents _ homeless as a teenager, didn't get on with my parents growing - homeless as a teenager, didn't get on with my parents growing up. - homeless as a teenager, didn't get on with my parents growing up. i. homeless as a teenager, didn't get . on with my parents growing up. i was groomed _ on with my parents growing up. i was groomed into — on with my parents growing up. i was groomed into a — on with my parents growing up. i was groomed into a gang _ on with my parents growing up. i was groomed into a gang during - on with my parents growing up. i was groomed into a gang during the - groomed into a gang during the period — groomed into a gang during the period i— groomed into a gang during the period. islebt_ groomed into a gang during the period. i slept on— groomed into a gang during the period. i slept on the _ groomed into a gang during the period. i slept on the streets. groomed into a gang during the period. i slept on the streets ofj period. i slept on the streets of manchester— period. i slept on the streets of manchester for _ period. islept on the streets of manchester for 12— period. i slept on the streets of manchester for 12 months. - period. i slept on the streets of manchester for 12 months. i- period. i slept on the streets ofl manchester for 12 months. i was sentenced — manchester for 12 months. i was sentenced to _ manchester for 12 months. i was sentenced to 12— manchester for 12 months. i was sentenced to 12 months - manchester for 12 months. i was sentenced to 12 months in- manchester for 12 months. i was| sentenced to 12 months in prison when _ sentenced to 12 months in prison when it— sentenced to 12 months in prison when it caught _ sentenced to 12 months in prison when it caught up _ sentenced to 12 months in prison when it caught up with _ sentenced to 12 months in prison when it caught up with me. - sentenced to 12 months in prison when it caught up with me. that| sentenced to 12 months in prison - when it caught up with me. that was suspended _ when it caught up with me. that was suspended for— when it caught up with me. that was suspended for 12 _ when it caught up with me. that was suspended for 12 months _ when it caught up with me. that was suspended for 12 months due - when it caught up with me. that was suspended for 12 months due to - when it caught up with me. that was suspended for 12 months due to it. suspended for 12 months due to it being _ suspended for 12 months due to it being a _ suspended for 12 months due to it being a first — suspended for 12 months due to it being a first time _ suspended for 12 months due to it being a first time offence, - suspended for 12 months due to it being a first time offence, and - suspended for 12 months due to it being a first time offence, and i. being a first time offence, and i undertook— being a first time offence, and i undertook 180 _ being a first time offence, and i undertook 180 community- being a first time offence, and ii undertook 180 community hours. being a first time offence, and i- undertook180 community hours. the undertook 180 community hours. the offence _ undertook 180 community hours. the offence was _ undertook 180 community hours. the offence was conspiracy _ undertook 180 community hours. the offence was conspiracy to _ undertook 180 community hours. the offence was conspiracy to defraud. i offence was conspiracy to defraud. related _ offence was conspiracy to defraud. related to— offence was conspiracy to defraud. related to county— offence was conspiracy to defraud. related to county lines? _ offence was conspiracy to defraud. related to county lines? it- offence was conspiracy to defraud. related to county lines?— related to county lines? it was similar tactics, _ related to county lines? it was similar tactics, you _ related to county lines? it was similar tactics, you would - related to county lines? it was similar tactics, you would be . related to county lines? it was - similar tactics, you would be asked to be _ similar tactics, you would be asked to be a _ similar tactics, you would be asked to be a runner, _ similar tactics, you would be asked to be a runner, you _ similar tactics, you would be asked to be a runner, you would - similar tactics, you would be asked to be a runner, you would have - similar tactics, you would be asked to be a runner, you would have a l to be a runner, you would have a roof— to be a runner, you would have a roof over — to be a runner, you would have a roof over your _ to be a runner, you would have a roof over your head, _ to be a runner, you would have a roof over your head, they- to be a runner, you would have a roof over your head, they will. to be a runner, you would have a i roof over your head, they will take you for—

roof over your head, they will take you for dinner— roof over your head, they will take you for dinnerand _ roof over your head, they will take you for dinner and trainers, - roof over your head, they will take you for dinner and trainers, but i roof over your head, they will take you for dinner and trainers, but iti you for dinner and trainers, but it wasn't _ you for dinner and trainers, but it wasn't necessarily— you for dinner and trainers, but it wasn't necessarily county- you for dinner and trainers, but it wasn't necessarily county lines. l wasn't necessarily county lines. didnt— wasn't necessarily county lines. didn't go— wasn't necessarily county lines. didn't go to _ wasn't necessarily county lines. didn't go to prison, _ wasn't necessarily county lines. didn't go to prison, what- wasn't necessarily county lines. - didn't go to prison, what happened? it was a suspended sentence, basically— it was a suspended sentence, basically because _ it was a suspended sentence, basically because i— it was a suspended sentence, basically because i pleaded . it was a suspended sentence, - basically because i pleaded guilty, and there — basically because i pleaded guilty, and there was _ basically because i pleaded guilty, and there was some _ basically because i pleaded guilty, and there was some leniency- basically because i pleaded guilty, and there was some leniency on . basically because i pleaded guilty, i and there was some leniency on that. the sentencing — and there was some leniency on that. the sentencing guidelines— and there was some leniency on that. the sentencing guidelines that - and there was some leniency on that. the sentencing guidelines that you i the sentencing guidelines that you could _ the sentencing guidelines that you could do— the sentencing guidelines that you could do 12-18 _ the sentencing guidelines that you could do 12—18 months _ the sentencing guidelines that you could do 12—18 months suspendedl the sentencing guidelines that youl could do 12—18 months suspended if you were _ could do 12—18 months suspended if you were pleading _ could do 12—18 months suspended if you were pleading guilty. _ could do 12—18 months suspended if you were pleading guilty. you- could do 12-18 months suspended if you were pleading guilty.— could do 12-18 months suspended if you were pleading guilty. you were a ve ounu you were pleading guilty. you were a very young man. _ you were pleading guilty. you were a very young man. a — you were pleading guilty. you were a very young man, a teenager, - you were pleading guilty. you were a very young man, a teenager, a - you were pleading guilty. you were a j very young man, a teenager, a child, really. you committed an offence, you were given a suspended sentence rather than a jail term. you have clearly turn your life around. do you see yourself as an example of how not to jail and people can work? i think the proof is in the pudding. maybe _ i think the proof is in the pudding. maybe i_ i think the proof is in the pudding. maybe i am — i think the proof is in the pudding. maybe i am part— i think the proof is in the pudding. maybe i am part of— i think the proof is in the pudding. maybe i am part of that. - i think the proof is in the pudding. maybe i am part of that. what - i think the proof is in the pudding. maybe i am part of that. what i. maybe i am part of that. what i would _ maybe i am part of that. what i would say — maybe i am part of that. what i would say is _ maybe i am part of that. what i would say is that _ maybe i am part of that. what i would say is that i— maybe i am part of that. what i would say is that i didn't - maybe i am part of that. what i would say is that i didn't do - maybe i am part of that. what i| would say is that i didn't do this on my— would say is that i didn't do this on my own. _ would say is that i didn't do this on my own. and _ would say is that i didn't do this on my own, and that— would say is that i didn't do this on my own, and that is- would say is that i didn't do this on my own, and that is what- would say is that i didn't do this| on my own, and that is what the labour— on my own, and that is what the labour government— on my own, and that is what the labour government and - on my own, and that is what the labour government and any- on my own, and that is what the - labour government and any government needs— labour government and any government needs to _ labour government and any government needs to look — labour government and any government needs to look at. _ labour government and any government needs to look at. first, _ labour government and any government needs to look at. first, prevention. - needs to look at. first, prevention. 40%_ needs to look at. first, prevention. 40% of— needs to look at. first, prevention. 40% of men— needs to look at. first, prevention. 40% of men under— needs to look at. first, prevention. 40% of men under the _ needs to look at. first, prevention. 40% of men under the age - needs to look at. first, prevention. 40% of men under the age of- needs to look at. first, prevention. 40% of men under the age of 25. needs to look at. first, prevention. 40% of men under the age of 25 ml 40% of men under the age of 25 in prison— 40% of men under the age of 25 in prison now— 40% of men under the age of 25 in prison now were _ 40% of men under the age of 25 in prison now were in care. _ 40% of men under the age of 25 in prison now were in care. for- 40% of men under the age of 25 in prison now were in care. for me, i prison now were in care. for me, they— prison now were in care. for me, they have — prison now were in care. for me, they have been _ prison now were in care. for me, they have been failed _ prison now were in care. for me, they have been failed by - prison now were in care. for me, they have been failed by societyi prison now were in care. for me, i they have been failed by society and they have been failed by society and the first _ they have been failed by society and the first place — they have been failed by society and the first place. if— they have been failed by society and the first place. if you _ they have been failed by society and the first place. if you invest - they have been failed by society and the first place. if you invest in- the first place. if you invest in young — the first place. if you invest in young people _ the first place. if you invest in young people early, _ the first place. if you invest in young people early, you - the first place. if you invest in| young people early, you make the first place. if you invest in. young people early, you make it the first place. if you invest in- young people early, you make it back in the _ young people early, you make it back in the future — young people early, you make it back

in the future. rather— young people early, you make it back in the future. rather spending - in the future. rather spending £50,000 _ in the future. rather spending £50,000 per— in the future. rather spending £50,000 per year, _ in the future. rather spending £50,000 peryear, per- in the future. rather spending . £50,000 peryear, per prisoner, in the future. rather spending - £50,000 peryear, per prisoner, over a hefty— £50,000 peryear, per prisoner, over a hefty sentence — £50,000 peryear, per prisoner, over a hefty sentence you _ £50,000 peryear, per prisoner, over a hefty sentence you are _ £50,000 peryear, per prisoner, over a hefty sentence you are looking - £50,000 peryear, per prisoner, over a hefty sentence you are looking at i a hefty sentence you are looking at £200.000 — a hefty sentence you are looking at £200.000 or— a hefty sentence you are looking at £200,000 or £300,000 _ a hefty sentence you are looking at £200,000 or £300,000 per- a hefty sentence you are looking at - £200,000 or £300,000 per sentence, you could _ £200,000 or £300,000 per sentence, you could spend _ £200,000 or £300,000 per sentence, you could spend money— £200,000 or £300,000 per sentence, you could spend money in— you could spend money in counselling, _ you could spend money in counselling, mentoring, i you could spend money in- counselling, mentoring, youth services — counselling, mentoring, youth services the _ counselling, mentoring, youth services. the reason— counselling, mentoring, youth services. the reason i- counselling, mentoring, youth services. the reason i got- counselling, mentoring, youth l services. the reason i got where counselling, mentoring, youth i services. the reason i got where i was has _ services. the reason i got where i was has become _ services. the reason i got where i was has become my— services. the reason i got where i was has become my best - services. the reason i got where i was has become my best friend'sl services. the reason i got where i- was has become my best friend's mum and dad _ was has become my best friend's mum and dad took— was has become my best friend's mum and dad took me — was has become my best friend's mum and dad took me in— was has become my best friend's mum and dad took me in and _ was has become my best friend's mum and dad took me in and gave _ was has become my best friend's mum and dad took me in and gave me - and dad took me in and gave me support, — and dad took me in and gave me support, opportunity— and dad took me in and gave me support, opportunity and, - support, opportunity and, ultimately. _ support, opportunity and, ultimately, education - support, opportunity and, i ultimately, education when i support, opportunity and, - ultimately, education when i went support, opportunity and, _ ultimately, education when i went to college, _ ultimately, education when i went to college, got— ultimately, education when i went to college, got my— ultimately, education when i went to college, got my gcses, _ ultimately, education when i went to college, got my gcses, went - ultimately, education when i went to college, got my gcses, went to - college, got my gcses, went to university— college, got my gcses, went to university and _ college, got my gcses, went to university and got _ college, got my gcses, went to university and got a _ college, got my gcses, went to university and got a degree, - college, got my gcses, went toi university and got a degree, and took— university and got a degree, and took a _ university and got a degree, and took a very— university and got a degree, and took a very untraditional - university and got a degree, and took a very untraditional route . university and got a degree, and i took a very untraditional route into westminster _ took a very untraditional route into westminster. but _ took a very untraditional route into westminster. but without - took a very untraditional route into westminster. but without them, . took a very untraditional route into - westminster. but without them, there is no reason _ westminster. but without them, there is no reason why— westminster. but without them, there is no reason why i_ westminster. but without them, there is no reason why i would _ westminster. but without them, there is no reason why i would not _ westminster. but without them, there is no reason why i would not be - westminster. but without them, there is no reason why i would not be the . is no reason why i would not be the 30% to _ is no reason why i would not be the 30% to 40% — is no reason why i would not be the 30% to 40% of— is no reason why i would not be the 30% to 40% of young _ is no reason why i would not be the 30% to 40% of young men - is no reason why i would not be the 30% to 40% of young men who - 30% to 40% of young men who reoffend, — 30% to 40% of young men who reoffend, because _ 30% to 40% of young men who reoffend, because you - 30% to 40% of young men who reoffend, because you are - 30% to 40% of young men who - reoffend, because you are constantly getting _ reoffend, because you are constantly getting doors— reoffend, because you are constantly getting doors pushed _ reoffend, because you are constantly getting doors pushed on— reoffend, because you are constantly getting doors pushed on your- reoffend, because you are constantly getting doors pushed on your face, l getting doors pushed on your face, you can't— getting doors pushed on your face, you can't find — getting doors pushed on your face, you can't find work— getting doors pushed on your face, you can't find work because - getting doors pushed on your face, you can't find work because you'rel you can't find work because you're declaring — you can't find work because you're declaring it. — you can't find work because you're declaring it. if— you can't find work because you're declaring it, if you _ you can't find work because you're declaring it, if you don't, - you can't find work because you're declaring it, if you don't, they- declaring it, if you don't, they will find — declaring it, if you don't, they will find out _ declaring it, if you don't, they will find out you _ declaring it, if you don't, they will find out you have - declaring it, if you don't, they will find out you have a - declaring it, if you don't, they. will find out you have a criminal record. — will find out you have a criminal record. and _ will find out you have a criminal record, and you're _ will find out you have a criminal record, and you're constantly. record, and you're constantly rejected _ record, and you're constantly rejected by— record, and you're constantly rejected by society. - record, and you're constantly rejected by society.— record, and you're constantly rejected by society. let's get into what ou rejected by society. let's get into what you both — rejected by society. let's get into what you both think— rejected by society. let's get into what you both think prison - rejected by society. let's get into what you both think prison is - rejected by society. let's get into | what you both think prison is four, starting with you, nick. greenock

prison works, if you think prison is therefore punishment. some people have committed a heinous offence, it is right that outrage is expressed and prisoners a suitable way of doing that. is and prisoners a suitable way of doing that-— and prisoners a suitable way of doinu that. , . , . doing that. is there any evidence it reduces crime? _ doing that. is there any evidence it reduces crime? i _ doing that. is there any evidence it reduces crime? i think _ doing that. is there any evidence it reduces crime? i think it _ doing that. is there any evidence it reduces crime? i think it does - doing that. is there any evidence it reduces crime? i think it does act i reduces crime? i think it does act as a deterrent, _ reduces crime? i think it does act as a deterrent, the _ reduces crime? i think it does act as a deterrent, the idea - reduces crime? i think it does act as a deterrent, the idea of- reduces crime? i think it does act as a deterrent, the idea of going | reduces crime? i think it does act i as a deterrent, the idea of going to prison _ as a deterrent, the idea of going to prison but — as a deterrent, the idea of going to prison but not _ as a deterrent, the idea of going to prison. but not extending - as a deterrent, the idea of going toi prison. but not extending sentences by a few _ prison. but not extending sentences by a few months. _ prison. but not extending sentences by a few months, that _ prison. but not extending sentences by a few months, that does - prison. but not extending sentences by a few months, that does not - prison. but not extending sentences by a few months, that does not add | by a few months, that does not add to the _ by a few months, that does not add to the deterrence. _ by a few months, that does not add to the deterrence. robbery - by a few months, that does not add . to the deterrence. robbery sentences have gone _ to the deterrence. robbery sentences have gone up— to the deterrence. robbery sentences have gone up from _ to the deterrence. robbery sentences have gone up from 40 _ to the deterrence. robbery sentences have gone up from 40 months, - to the deterrence. robbery sentences have gone up from 40 months, up. to the deterrence. robbery sentences have gone up from 40 months, up to| have gone up from 40 months, up to 45 months— have gone up from 40 months, up to 45 months on— have gone up from 40 months, up to 45 months on average. _ have gone up from 40 months, up to 45 months on average. no _ have gone up from 40 months, up to 45 months on average. no one - 45 months on average. no one planning — 45 months on average. no one planning a — 45 months on average. no one planning a robbery— 45 months on average. no one planning a robbery are - 45 months on average. no one planning a robbery are sitting i 45 months on average. no one - planning a robbery are sitting down and saying. — planning a robbery are sitting down and saying. i— planning a robbery are sitting down and saying. iwill— planning a robbery are sitting down and saying, i will not _ planning a robbery are sitting down and saying, i will not do— planning a robbery are sitting down and saying, i will not do it - planning a robbery are sitting down and saying, i will not do it because| and saying, i will not do it because of the _ and saying, i will not do it because of the extra — and saying, i will not do it because of the extra few _ and saying, i will not do it because of the extra few months. - and saying, i will not do it because of the extra few months. that - and saying, i will not do it because of the extra few months. that is l and saying, i will not do it because. of the extra few months. that is the decisive _ of the extra few months. that is the decisive factor. _ of the extra few months. that is the decisive factor. if— of the extra few months. that is the decisive factor. if you _ of the extra few months. that is the decisive factor. if you want - of the extra few months. that is the decisive factor. if you want to - decisive factor. if you want to rehabilitate _ decisive factor. if you want to rehabilitate someone, - decisive factor. if you want to rehabilitate someone, it- decisive factor. if you want to rehabilitate someone, it is. decisive factor. if you want to i rehabilitate someone, it is much better— rehabilitate someone, it is much better done _ rehabilitate someone, it is much better done outside _ rehabilitate someone, it is much better done outside prison. - rehabilitate someone, it is much| better done outside prison. what works— better done outside prison. what works is— better done outside prison. what works is the _ better done outside prison. what works is the kind _ better done outside prison. what works is the kind of— better done outside prison. what works is the kind of support - better done outside prison. what works is the kind of support you i works is the kind of support you were _ works is the kind of support you were talking _ works is the kind of support you were talking about, _ works is the kind of support you

were talking about, housing, i works is the kind of support you were talking about, housing, a i works is the kind of support you . were talking about, housing, a job, family— were talking about, housing, a job, family contact, _ were talking about, housing, a job, family contact, those _ were talking about, housing, a job, family contact, those kind - were talking about, housing, a job, family contact, those kind of- family contact, those kind of things — family contact, those kind of things things— family contact, those kind of things. things you _ family contact, those kind of things. things you can - family contact, those kind of things. things you can do. family contact, those kind ofj things. things you can do for family contact, those kind of- things. things you can do for people outside _ things. things you can do for people outside prison~ _ things. things you can do for people outside prison. send _ things. things you can do for people outside prison. send people - things. things you can do for people outside prison. send people to - outside prison. send people to prison— outside prison. send people to prison if— outside prison. send people to prison if you _ outside prison. send people to prison if you want _ outside prison. send people to prison if you want to _ outside prison. send people to prison if you want to punish . outside prison. send people to - prison if you want to punish them, but don't — prison if you want to punish them, but don't think— prison if you want to punish them, but don't think it _ prison if you want to punish them, but don't think it is _ prison if you want to punish them, but don't think it is a _ prison if you want to punish them, but don't think it is a miracle - prison if you want to punish them, but don't think it is a miracle cure | but don't think it is a miracle cure for other— but don't think it is a miracle cure for other things. _ but don't think it is a miracle cure for other things.— but don't think it is a miracle cure for other things. matthew, you know --eole in for other things. matthew, you know people in prison. _ for other things. matthew, you know people in prison, you _ for other things. matthew, you know people in prison, you have _ for other things. matthew, you know people in prison, you have spoken i for other things. matthew, you know| people in prison, you have spoken to prisoners, what do they tell you about why they reoffend? bzierr; about why they reoffend? very similar to _ about why they reoffend? very similar to my _ about why they reoffend? very similar to my own _ about why they reoffend? very similar to my own story. - about why they reoffend? very similar to my own story. if- about why they reoffend? very similar to my own story. if i i about why they reoffend? - similar to my own story. if i hadn't found the support and opportunity. put yourself in this person's position, you leave prison, i have explained this to other people, i have interviewed former cabinet ministers who have been to prison, it is a class issue. if you are a former cabinet minister, you might go and write a book, you have contacts from your time in parliament, potentially the media, you are locked at differently by society, somebody has still been paying the mortgage while you were inside. if i was to come out, my wife might have left me, 1392 00:10:53,782