what we are not going to do is deal with this by slogans. her opposite number, chris philp, the shadow home secretary's with us live, after his party failed to stop the boats. and scary future, fantastic opportunity or both? artificial intelligence is here to stay — the chair of one of the new tech super—giants says it will change the world. openair is a mission—driven company, and our mission is to ensure that our official general intelligence benefits all of humanity. forget the future for a sec, we'll revel in the recent past. in our last show of 2024, we'll take a look back at this lot�*s antics, and the huge changes the last 12 months have brought. still standing at the end of a crazy year, andy burnham, labour mayor of greater manchester, broadcaster susanna reid and james reed, chairman and ceo of the reed group. a warm welcome to you all.

morning. let's start by looking at what's making the news this morning. the sunday times and sunday telegraph both splash with more claims about china and spying, notjust prince andrew but prime ministers caught up in it now. and picutres, of course, of chris mccausland winning the strictly final last night. the observer and the mirror both lead with fears about housing. the i and bbc news websites both kick off with yvette cooper's challenges to bring down the number of people arriving on small boats. you'll hear from her in a sec. let us start with you and very warm welcome to all of you, these extraordinary revelation about china spying in the uk catching out prince andrew. �* ., ., , ., ., andrew. although does that come as a hu . e andrew. although does that come as a huge surprise — andrew. although does that come as a huge surprise in _ andrew. although does that come as a huge surprise in prince _ andrew. although does that come as a huge surprise in prince andrew - andrew. although does that come as a huge surprise in prince andrew has - huge surprise in prince andrew has as we have seen from his friendship

with jeffrey epstein, as we have seen from his friendship withjeffrey epstein, questionable with jeffrey epstein, questionable judgment withjeffrey epstein, questionable judgment when it comes to who he associates with, so you know these problems don't seem to afflict the king or prawn session anne or prince edward but prince andrew is the one who seems to make those mistakes. he seems to have a knack nor getting into trouble. andy you had big jobs into trouble. andy you had big jobs in government, when you are in a big high profile position does anybody say to you be carefulle about who you meet or photographs with? timer;r you meet or photographs with? they do and that is _ you meet or photographs with? they do and that is why _ you meet or photographs with? they do and that is why this is quite a security breach, am staggered what is being _ security breach, am staggered what is being reported today, because everyone — is being reported today, because everyone in my organisation, now, people _ everyone in my organisation, now, peorrie wiii— everyone in my organisation, now, people will do due diligence before meetings take place but at the heart of government, the prime minister obviously— of government, the prime minister obviously should have the highest level of— obviously should have the highest level of screening if you like before — level of screening if you like before people get through to meet you, before people get through to meet you. you _ before people get through to meet you, you can be be on the campaign trailand_ you, you can be be on the campaign traiiand a— you, you can be be on the campaign trail and a photo taken with somebody you don't know or a party

conference. — somebody you don't know or a party conference, that is different, having — conference, that is different, having a _ conference, that is different, having a meeting in a government building _ having a meeting in a government building is— having a meeting in a government building is i would say a serious breach— building is i would say a serious breach and _ building is i would say a serious breach and there are big questions i would _ breach and there are big questions i would say— breach and there are big questions i would say for the security services here _ would say for the security services here. ., ., ., ~._ here. david cameron and theresa may met this chinese _ here. david cameron and theresa may met this chinese spy _ here. david cameron and theresa may met this chinese spy all— here. david cameron and theresa may met this chinese spy all those - met this chinese spy all those offices say they don't remember it and nothing serious was discussed but it is tricky this relationship with china because we need china for the economy, for your world of creating jobs and business but politicians want to sup with a long spoon because of things like this? it is careful who your friends are, and it_ it is careful who your friends are, and it is— it is careful who your friends are, and it is interesting _ it is careful who your friends are, and it is interesting this, - and it is interesting this, because looking _ and it is interesting this, because looking at— and it is interesting this, because looking at the _ and it is interesting this, because looking at the paper _ and it is interesting this, because looking at the paper the - and it is interesting this, because looking at the paper the chinese i looking at the paper the chinese spv's_ looking at the paper the chinese spv's face — looking at the paper the chinese spv's face is _ looking at the paper the chinese spy's face is faded _ looking at the paper the chinese spy's face is faded out, - looking at the paper the chinese spy's face is faded out, which i looking at the paper the chinese i spy's face is faded out, which isn't helpful— spy's face is faded out, which isn't helpful to — spy's face is faded out, which isn't helpful to people _ spy's face is faded out, which isn't helpful to people who _ spy's face is faded out, which isn't helpful to people who might- spy's face is faded out, which isn't helpful to people who might want| spy's face is faded out, which isn't. helpful to people who might want to know who _ helpful to people who might want to know who the — helpful to people who might want to know who the chinese _ helpful to people who might want to know who the chinese spy— helpful to people who might want to know who the chinese spy is, - helpful to people who might want to know who the chinese spy is, so, i helpful to people who might want toi know who the chinese spy is, so, you know— know who the chinese spy is, so, you know i_ know who the chinese spy is, so, you know i am _ know who the chinese spy is, so, you know i am wondering, _ know who the chinese spy is, so, you know i am wondering, you _ know who the chinese spy is, so, you know i am wondering, you know- know who the chinese spy is, so, you know i am wondering, you know who| know i am wondering, you know who this person _ know i am wondering, you know who this person is — know i am wondering, you know who this person is and _ know i am wondering, you know who this person is and they— know i am wondering, you know who this person is and they might - know i am wondering, you know who this person is and they might be - this person is and they might be sideting — this person is and they might be sideting up— this person is and they might be sideting up to _ this person is and they might be sideling up to any _ this person is and they might be sideling up to any point - this person is and they might be sideling up to any point saying l this person is and they might be i sideling up to any point saying how are you _ sideling up to any point saying how are you getting _ sideling up to any point saying how are you getting on? _ sideling up to any point saying how are you getting on? that _ sideling up to any point saying how are you getting on? that is - sideling up to any point saying how are you getting on? that is true . sideling up to any point saying how are you getting on? that is true of| are you getting on? that is true of all walks _ are you getting on? that is true of all walks of— are you getting on? that is true of all walks of life. _ are you getting on? that is true of all walks of life. we _ are you getting on? that is true of all walks of life. we have - are you getting on? that is true of all walks of life. we have a - all walks of life. we have a screening _ all walks of life. we have a screening bids— all walks of life. we have a screening bids that - all walks of life. we have a screening bids that checksl all walks of life. we have a - screening bids that checks people out based — screening bids that checks people out based in — screening bids that checks people out based in manchester, - screening bids that checks people i out based in manchester, employs over 100 _ out based in manchester, employs over 100 people _ out based in manchester, employs over 100 people. we _ out based in manchester, employs over 100 people. we will- out based in manchester, employs over 100 people. we will do - out based in manchester, employs over 100 people. we will do our. over 100 people. we will do our best, _ over 100 people. we will do our best. we — over 100 people. we will do our best, we would _ over 100 people. we will do our best, we would like _ over 100 people. we will do our

best, we would like to, - over 100 people. we will do our best, we would like to, but - over 100 people. we will do our best, we would like to, but it. over 100 people. we will do our best, we would like to, but it is| best, we would like to, but it is sop important— best, we would like to, but it is sop important to _ best, we would like to, but it is sop important to know- best, we would like to, but it is sop important to know who - best, we would like to, but it is- sop important to know who someone is, and _ sop important to know who someone is, and who— sop important to know who someone is, and who you _ sop important to know who someone is, and who you can— sop important to know who someone is, and who you can trust, _ sop important to know who someone is, and who you can trust, and - sop important to know who someone is, and who you can trust, and morel is, and who you can trust, and more so than _ is, and who you can trust, and more so than ever~ — is, and who you can trust, and more so than ever~ ll— is, and who you can trust, and more so than ever~ lla— is, and who you can trust, and more so than ever-— so than ever. it a story of our times, certainly _ so than ever. it a story of our times, certainly not - so than ever. it a story of our times, certainly not the - so than ever. it a story of our times, certainly not the first | so than ever. it a story of our. times, certainly not the first and not the last of its kind. being the home secretary is both a dream and a nightmare for politician, these days they have to try and solve a problem way beyond police or public order here, that treacherous trade that smuggles human cargo to the uk, a along side what we have been talking about, a more complicated patch work of espionage and people trying to target the uk, for bad reasons. yesterday, we travelled to rome with the home secretary, where she was meeting her italian opposite number, and we talked about small boat pose, and we talked about small boat pose, and spies. we have huge expertise in our intelligence and security agencies, they monitor for notjust risks around terror threats, but also

threats from hostile states, from different state actors, different challenges to our uk security, and that is the bread and butter of what they do. they do an extremely good job, and where they raise cases we take action on them and we will continue to do so. is this a threat that is becoming more grave, however? the head of mi5 recently said there was a lot of evidence of patient, well funded and defensive campaigns and he did say threats from sabotage and espionage are becoming more serious? one of the things that the head of mi5 has made clear and it is certainly something i have seen in the course of this job, is that the kind of challenges to the uk's security have become much more complex. so you have different patterns of action, from china, also more direct threats, ranging from cybersecurity, or the use of criminal proxys from countries like russia, and from iran.

what would your message be to the chinese state? the prime minister met president xi not so long ago, the first such meeting to take place in a while, but what would your message be to the chinese state? well, we will continue to take a very strong approach to our national security, that includes to any challenge including to our economic security, from china, from other countries around the world, that will always be the approach that we will take. of course, with china we also need to make sure we have that economic interaction, economic cooperation in place as well, so it is a complex arrangement. let us then talk about asylum and why you are here. what are you hoping to achieve during this visit? this is part of a programme of work that we are determined to take forward, to restore order and control, both to our borders, and also to our asylum

and immigration systems. we face the dangerous boat crossings in the channel which undermine border security and put lives at risk, and we have been very clear, we need to go after the criminal gangs that organise and profit from them. those gangs operate across borders, and that is why law enforcement and governments need to operate across border as well. so that is why i am here, talking to the italian interior minister just as i have been talking earlier in the week, to the french, the german, the belgian and netherlands interior ministers, in the calais group about how strong a cooperation on law enforcement and why we have new agreements in place, both with germany and with the iraqi government as well. how can viewers though have confidence that approach is the right one, when during your time in charge, the number of boats making that dangerous crossing, putting lives at risk has increased and also the number of hotels being used to house people who have

come to the uk without permission in the uk, that has gone up too, why should people think you are taking the right approach? what we inherited from the first half of this year, first half of the year had record high levels of boat crossings. it, had that continued we we are on track really for the worst year ever, for small boat crossings, had that continued we would have had thousands more crossings over the course of the summer and through the autumn. as it is, we are around a quarter lower than 2022, that was the peak year, but, look, that is no comfort when you still have these small boat crossings, where we have got lives being put at risk and huge numbers of lives being lost and also these criminal gangs are profiting from, from the undermining our border security. and the numbers have gone up during your time in charge. i am aware we are coming up to the six month milestone. the numbers, so, compared to the first half of the year we had we had record highs,

we haven't had that record high level, that could have taken us potentially up to 50,000 we haven't had that, but let us be clear, the scale of the boat crossings we are seeing is deeply damaging, undermines border security and puts lives at risk. i suppose the question though that our viewers watching and listening to you today, have, though, is when will they see a difference?

making progress, and we are already bringing the backlog down. and so we expect to continue to make progress on that through the winter. it's clear, also, with people, reducing the backlog, also means allowing more people to stay, and those people also will need housing, they'll need health, they'll need jobs. well, it also means increasing returns, and one of the biggest changes that we have seen since the election is we moved people, people who are working on the failing rwanda scheme that had sent four volunteers to kigali. they had 1,000 people working on that scheme, that completely failed scheme. we have moved people in. we've actually moved around 1,000 people into returns and enforcement. and as a result of that, we're now on track for over 13,000 removals, returns since the election. a big increase in returns, and also a big increase

in the raids on illegal working, a big increase on arrests and enforcement, because the rules have to be respected and enforced. theyjust haven't been for far too long. but i will ask you again, when can our viewers expect to see the number of people making small boat crossings, putting their lives at risk, trying to get to the uk? when can they expect that to come down? so of course we want to continue to see progress. of course we want to see the boat crossings come down as rapidly as possible. what we're not going to do is deal this by slogans. so, you know, rishi sunak did say. but it's not about slogans. but home secretary, home secretary, this is not about slogans. when it comes to something like waiting lists and in the nhs the government's very happy to put targets publicly on that and say, measure us by whether we hit those. when it comes to kids education the government's been very happy to put a target on that, saying, judge us by this measure,

when it comes to this issue. you won't give us a yardstick by when. we could know when people can actually expect there'll be a significant difference. why not? because it makes it feel like it's not a priority to the government in the way that some other issues are. well, quite the opposite. we've made clear that the border security is actually one of the foundational issues. before you even get to any of the missions, it's one of the big foundations. and we've been clear we need to reduce both legal migration and illegal migration, that we need to be, it's a clear priority for the government in terms of tackling these dangerous boat crossings. there is a history of home secretaries, on prime ministers making grand promises, but never actually having a proper plan. the approach we're taking to this is really step by step. we are putting in place the things that we need, the agreements with other countries, the stronger returns arrangements, the much stronger law enforcement, the operations with germany to go after the smugglers supply chains, the operations with italy to go after the illicit finance. you're asking people to be patient

then with the existing situation. well, i think we're being very clear and straight with people about the complexity of this, because the gimmicks did not work. what we had previously was a whole lot of gimmicks. everybody promised it was going to solve it immediately. and what we're doing is the very serious action. we've already substantially increased. we've had over 25% increase in terms of the returns. we're having over 30% increase in enforcement raids. so, we're already increasing step—by—step. but of course this is complex. and of course this takes time. what you call gimmicks, other people call strong deterrents. we know that you ditched the conservatives rwanda plan. and frankly, our viewers know no—one can tell whether it worked or not because it didn't happen. conservatives say it would have had an effect. you say it was a disaster and it never would have done... for two and a half years...

but we'll never know because it didn't happen. however, you said on our programme a while ago that you were interested in the idea of using another country, maybe for processing claims. italy, where we're speaking today, has started not with huge success, but to use albania to process people. are you still, in principle, open to the idea of using other countries as sites where people who want to live in the uk could have their claims looked at and processed, to use the jargon? are you still interested in that? so we will look at whatever works. clearly everything has to meet proper international standards, clearly has to be effective and has to deliver results. the interesting thing about the italy—albania arrangement, and you're right, that hasn't fully started yet. the interesting thing about that is that at the heart of it is a plan to effectively fast track cases from predominantly safe countries. we are interested in doing that in the uk, to fast track decisions

for people arriving from countries that are predominantly safe, where we should be able to take those decisions very swiftly and also be able to return people very swiftly. that hasn't happened in the past, so we are interested to develop that in the uk. we think that's an important principle. potentially you might still be interested in looking at other countries for processing? we will look at whatever works. but i think the key thing is to be just really practical. and that's why we've been focusing on the law enforcement, on being able to take out some of the criminal gangs, but also to be able to fast track those decisions and returns. on the flip side, though, if you speak to refugee groups or someone like your old colleague, david miliband, they would say, actually, this is about a historic movement of peoples desperate for a better life. and the only way to deal with this properly is to open up more safe routes where people can come more easily to the uk or other western countries. but you won't look at that. why not? well, we have always had different kinds of safe ways for resettlement and for support for refugees.

that will always continue to be the case, because whether that be around ukraine, whether that be around the work that we have done on afghanistan, whether that be on hong kong, all of that's important, so all countries should do their bit to help those who have fled persecution and conflict. but whatever you do on that side, unless you go after the criminal gangs, then this kind of smuggling and trafficking will continue. because the gangs have a criminal industry. they will just advertise for more places. so, therefore, that's why i think you've got to go after the criminal gangs. even one of your own ministers said it was like whack a mole. you know, you take out a gang somewhere and they pop up somewhere else. so, are you really confident that law enforcement alone and returns is going to actually solve this problem in an effective way and make a big difference? because you've got critics

on the left and right who say what you're putting forward, fine, that's what everybody would want to do, you want to enforce the law, you want to work with other countries, but what you're putting forward is not radical enough to tackle a problem of this scale. well, if you go back six years or so, there were barely any boat crossings across the channel. since then, an entire criminal industry has grown up along our border, organising these boats, bringing in these flimsy plastic boats from china or turkey or across the continent, supplying the engines, a huge financial money network that they use in order to take the payments for it. this is a criminal industry. they've got advertising online, on tiktok, on facebook and so on. that criminal industry has grown up in the space of six years and been allowed to take hold. we should not be allowing those gangs to get away with it. and that's why i do think very strongly it is right to be going after those criminal gangs, not to just shrug our shoulders and say, "oh, well, the criminal

organised smuggler gangs will always be with us and therefore we should do nothing." we have a responsibility, a moral responsibility, to go after those gangs who are putting lives at risk. when you see these flimsy boats, the way that it's women and kids who get put in the middle of the boat, so when the boat folds, they are the people who get crushed, who end up drowning, incredibly dangerous boats in the channel, and it undermines our border security. so i do believe we have to go after the criminal gangs. you will hear the prime minister, keir starmer, talk about the work that he did when he was the director of public prosecutions to go after the terrorist gangs. i don't think there's a single person watching who would think that you should just let the gangs do this, but do you really think that you can end that trade once and for all? so, i do believe that you can tackle this trade of organised gangs, and partly because what i've seen through, you know, the talking to other countries, the work that we've done, looking at france, germany,

the visit to iraq as well, actually, i think our law enforcement across borders has been far, far too weak. you can see all kinds of different areas where we could be operating much more strongly between us. just one final question, if i may, because it's the first time we've spoken to you since the election, and you're one of the few government ministers who's gone back into government. you'd done it before. i think it's fair to say it's been quite a bumpy time. would it have been better if more of your colleagues had had experience in government like you? well, if you're asking me, would it have been better if we hadn't had 1a years in opposition? then, yes, i strongly agree with you. and then more people would have had recent experience, because 1a years of opposition, you know, has been a tough period. what it also means, though, is i do think we have inherited actually a much more difficult situation than in �*97 when i was first elected. a lot of damage had been done

in �*97, but that is nothing compared to really the damage, the chaos really throughout the system, damage to the economy, to the public finances, the scale of damage to the public finances and to our public services, we've seen it in policing, but the nhs, i see in my own constituency, the huge damage to the nhs. that is a challenge to deal with that. that leads to much more serious challenges than i think we faced last time round. but that's why i think we've been so determined to move at such pace over the last six months. yvette cooper, thank you so much for speaking to us today. thanks, laura. listening to that was chris philp who untiljuly was a minister in the home office. now he's on the other side and is the shadow home secretary. the home secretary told us there had been more tens of microns in six months than in five years, more or less, you must be pleased to hear that. ., ., _, , ., less, you must be pleased to hear that. ., ., , ., , that. there are of course a couple of oints that. there are of course a couple of points worth — that. there are of course a couple of points worth highlighting. - that. there are of course a couple of points worth highlighting. one | that. there are of course a couple i of points worth highlighting. one of thoseis of points worth highlighting. one of those is the vast majority of the returns are to european and north

american countries firstly. secondly, in labour's first three months in office, they returned a small boat arrivals in relatively small boat arrivals in relatively small numbers, the small boat returns actually went down to the three months before the election, and amounted to under 5% of small boat arrivals. and amounted to under 596 of small boat arrivals-— boat arrivals. when you look at those figures, _ boat arrivals. when you look at those figures, not _ boat arrivals. when you look at those figures, not quite - boat arrivals. when you look at those figures, not quite so - those figures, not quite so impressive. he spectacularly broke your promise to stop the boats which were slapped over every government that can go in, every poster, backed up that can go in, every poster, backed up to the conservative party events, isn't yvette cooper right to say now she is in charge at the home office, progress is really being made? small boat crossing — progress is really being made? small boat crossing last _ progress is really being made? small boat crossing last year, _ progress is really being made? snail boat crossing last year, 2023, went down by a third compared to the previous year. down by a third compared to the previous year-— previous year. record high and developed _ previous year. record high and developed as _ previous year. record high and developed as a _ previous year. record high and developed as a phenomenon. i previous year. record high and i developed as a phenomenon. we started developed as a phenomenon. - started getting numbers down. since the election, last five months, the number of boat crossings are up by 18% compared to the same period last year, so under labour, focusing is going up. i think they made a huge

mistake cancelling the rwanda deterrent before it even started. the first flight was due to go off on the 24th ofjuly. we know deterrents are important because the national crime agency have told us law enforcement alone isn't enough, you need a deterrent. we have seen other countries successfully use deterrents. other countries successfully use deterrents-— other countries successfully use deterrents. ., , ., ., deterrents. can i remind you and the viewers there — deterrents. can i remind you and the viewers there were _ deterrents. can i remind you and the viewers there were challenges - viewers there were challenges waiting in the courts for the rwanda scheme and i might have been a plane booked but you cannot be certain rwanda would never have got off the ground in a meaningful way, just as labour cannot be sure it never would have worked? that is an unknowable situation. we have worked? that is an unknowable situation. ~ , , ., ., have worked? that is an unknowable situation. ~ ,, ., ., ., have worked? that is an unknowable situation. ~ ., ., ., .,~ situation. we passed a law to make sure the flights _ situation. we passed a law to make sure the flights could _ situation. we passed a law to make sure the flights could take - situation. we passed a law to make sure the flights could take off, - situation. we passed a law to make sure the flights could take off, we | sure the flights could take off, we legislated to deal with legal issues. .., , , issues. there were cases in the courts. issues. there were cases in the courts- the _ issues. there were cases in the courts. the first _ issues. there were cases in the courts. the first plane - issues. there were cases in the courts. the first plane was - issues. there were cases in the courts. the first plane was due| issues. there were cases in the l courts. the first plane was due to take off on _ courts. the first plane was due to take off on the _ courts. the first plane was due to take off on the 24th _ courts. the first plane was due to take off on the 24th of— courts. the first plane was due to take off on the 24th ofjuly. - courts. the first plane was due to take off on the 24th ofjuly. we i take off on the 24th ofjuly. we know from australia to deterrents work. ten years ago australia had a very similar problem to us with boats going from indonesia to australia in similarly high numbers.

they established a deterrent, using an island in the pacific rather than we wonder, when they started doing that, very rapidly boat crossings completely stopped. we can see a deterrent works yet labour cancel debt. i deterrent works yet labour cancel debt. ., ., ., ,, , deterrent works yet labour cancel debt. ., ., .,~ , debt. i want to make this point aaain. .. debt. i want to make this point again... migrants _ debt. i want to make this point again... migrants in _ debt. i want to make this point again... migrants in calais- debt. i want to make this point i again... migrants in calais saying the were again... migrants in calais saying they were delighted _ again... migrants in calais saying they were delighted keir - again... migrants in calais saying they were delighted keir starmerj again... migrants in calais saying - they were delighted keir starmer was elected... it is they were delighted keir starmer was elected... , ,, ., ., , elected... it is unknowable whether rwanda would _ elected... it is unknowable whether rwanda would have _ elected... it is unknowable whether rwanda would have made _ elected... it is unknowable whether rwanda would have made a - elected... it is unknowable whether. rwanda would have made a difference and the 20 mile channel crossing is very different to the seas around australia when people are coming from far bigoted distances. it is unknowable. —— far bigger distances. what is noble is with albanians coming across the channel, we get a returns agreement with albania a couple of years ago, that led to a 93% reduction in albanians crossing, showing you in the context of the channel removing people quickly when they arrive does deter and it is common sense.— they arrive does deter and it is common sense. , ., ., ., common sense. then you do not need somethin: common sense. then you do not need something like — common sense. then you do not need something like rwanda? _

common sense. then you do not need something like rwanda? proved - something like rwanda? proved labour's point. we something like rwanda? proved labour's point.— labour's point. we were able to return people — labour's point. we were able to return people specifically - labour's point.