welcome to hardtalk with me, mishal husain. my guest is steven mcrae, who has been a principal dancer with the royal ballet here in london for the last 15 years. he has defied serious injury to come back to the stage again and again. so what is his message today for his profession and for the wider world of ballet about how to look after a younger generation of dancers? steven mcrae, welcome to hardtalk. we are here at the royal ballet and opera in london, which has been your professional home for many years now, and you're about to go back on stage as the mad hatter in alice's adventures in wonderland. tell me first how this adventure began for you, the world of ballet, because you grew up far away from here.

yes, so i grew up in the outskirts of sydney, australia, probably the furthest you could possibly get from the royal opera house here in london. i grew up in a motorsport family. my father was a drag racer. my father was an incredibly clever man who would create any parts with his own bare hands that he couldn't afford to purchase or to import. but i obviously grew up watching him pursue a passion. my sister did a lot of gymnastics, a bit of dancing, and as a seven—year—old, i asked my father if i could have a go. i wanted to go to a dance lesson, and my mother and father didn't even question any of it — bearing in mind we didn't go to the theatre, we didn't go to galleries, or... i was not exposed to the arts. but they found a local school around the corner, and we now can fully appreciate that that little local school had some of the best teachers you could ever come across. and you had this very rapid rise through your teens.

you performed at the opening ceremony of the sydney olympics, and then you started to win international ballet competitions. the first teachers i had unleashed this tiger within me. so, then it was when i was about 13 or 14, another ballet teacher that i was taken to — which again shows you just how incredible my first teachers were, that they felt they'd taken me so far, and it was time to hand me on — they introduced me to my teacher in sydney, hilary kaplan, and it was her who said to my parents, "your son could do this. "he could actually go all the way and join the royal ballet company, and this could be his life." so that was so foreign to us. as soon as she said royal ballet, i thought it was in melbourne or something. but when you came here and you went through the ballet school, and then you got a job at 18 with the royal ballet, that kind of pressure on a young person, what was it like?

when ijoined the school — this is well over 20 years ago now — the safeguarding rules and things were a very different world then. so, the school had no room in the accommodation, so i was put in a hostel. i didn't know a soul. i didn't have any guardian here in the uk. there was there was no family to go to on a sunday to have a roast. but i was on this mission. i was on an absolute mission to fulfil this passion of mine. i had no idea what world i was entering, ijust loved it. so, at the age of 18, joining the company, i'd been in london forjust over a year, and if i'm really truthfully honest, i was riddled with homesickness. it was quite crippling at times. i would break out into rashes and of course, with my colouring, it was just assumed, "oh, you've got sensitive skin" and you know, "here are some creams." thankfully, now with much more open talk going on about the mental health and well—being of all of us,

notjust high—performing artists and athletes. and i can look back at it now and say, well, obviously i was riddled with anxiety, and i guess that that torn feeling deep within of i've given up and sacrificed my family on the other side of the world in putting myself and my passion first, ahead of anybody else. the only way i knew how to deal with that was to dig deeper and throw my head even deeper into the profession, which is absolutely what i did. did your first major role come about because someone was injured and you had to step in? yeah, that's correct, it was in my first season. there was a fantastic ballet called symphonic variations by sir frederick ashton, and the casting went up and i was an understudy. it's just three principal men and three principal women. as an 18—year—old, that's a huge honour to see your name put up as an understudy.

as the rehearsal process went on, one of the dancers got injured and ifound myself on the opening night on the royal opera house stage next to, you know, these dancers, these artists that i had so admired. my first big, full—length principal role was romeo in sir kenneth macmillan�*s romeo and juliet. and again, that was not planned, it was a last—minute injury. i wasn't even the understudy. and five days later, i did the opening night of that role. you've seen the other side of that now, haven't you? because in your years dancing here, you have had some pretty serious injuries, so you now know what it feels like to be the one... i've definitely gone to the other side! ..who can't carry on. yeah. and in some cases, your injuries have happened really on stage in and really, you know, in the most dramatic way possible. yeah, so in 2019, i was on stage performing sir kenneth macmillan�*s manon, a ballet that actually at the age of 1a, when i had started to focus on ballet, transformed my entire view

of what dance actually was. towards the end of act two, i took off for a jump and my achilles snapped right in front of 2,500 people. it's obviously the worst nightmare for an artist or an athlete to have any injury. did you know immediately what had happened? yeah. because you felt it or you...? yeah. so, some people experience the sensation or the sound of a gunshot going off. for me, it sounded like a plank of wood, like a doorstop, a wedge that we use in sets to stop them sliding around. so, for me, i took off for the jump, and i heard, "da—dum!" i thought i'd tripped over something. so, of course, 2500 people orchestra going, you're alone on stage, you of course, carry on — the show must always go on. but i literally had no leg to stand on. so, immediately, the shock, the adrenaline is removed from you.

without being too graphic, it felt like somebody was just slicing through my leg. and that's all magnified with the humiliation of it actually happening publicly. because you feel it's your fault? well, every time i step on stage — and it won'tjust be me who feels this — i feel a huge responsibility to the audience. for me, there could be somebody in that audience that it'll be the one and only time that they will experience that art form. do you look back now and think these injuries are avoidable if training, if rehearsal, if this world is handled or managed differently, if the expectations are different?

yeah, absolutely. if you look at any top performing world, whether that is the performing arts, the world of sport, you see this pattern, this parallel between all the professions that this sense of burnout almost becomes the norm. it's accepted that, well, anyone who wants to succeed and achieve, they're going to hit this wall of burnout. and then they decide, yes, i want to carry on or i step away. at the time, i was unaware that i was actually in an extreme state of burnout. i'd become a father, i had two young children at the time. there was so much going on. i was performing every role you could ever dream of, working with the greatest ballerinas and choreographers, the full support of my director, kevin o'hare. and so, of course, for myself and for everybody around me, there was no chance that anybody was witnessing any sniff of burnout from me cos it looked as if i was flying high. but are you saying that

burnout and its effect is not only psychological, that perhaps there was something that made you weaker and made that injury more likely? yeah, genuinely, if you look at our profession, the workload is too high. and the royal ballet has really and the royal ballet has really tried to embrace the need tried to embrace the need for change in this area. for change in this area. so, we have an incredible so, we have an incredible sports department, sports department, we have a medical team now we have a medical team now where we have sports where we have sports scientists tracking workload — scientists tracking workload — how manyjumps we're performing how manyjumps we're performing in that particular ballet in that particular ballet and how does that overlap and how does that overlap with the multiple productions. with the multiple productions. so, the company are very so, the company are very much pushing ahead and much pushing ahead and trying to find new ways. trying to find new ways. now. now. but at the time... but at the time... of course. of course. at the time, at the time, that was not the case. that was not the case. it was very much that it was very much that environment that of course, environment that of course, you say yes to everything. you say yes to everything. people still want to say people still want to say that this career is short, that this career is short, so in your head, if you say no, so in your head, if you say no,

then perhaps you won't get then perhaps you won't get that opportunity again. of course, you can't turn back time and say i would have done it differently, but that was the circumstance at the time. but i wonder if there is something that is so unique, perhaps even so extreme, about ballet, that makes it difficult to pursue excellence in the same way, if you put a kinder, gentler framework around it.

and again, things have now developed and moved on. we have a long way to go of course. we still need to, i think, embrace far more of the world of sport within our industry, which of course opens a whole other discussion of, well, are we artists or athletes? and you think...? well, i believe that we're artists who have to behave like athletes. what we require of our own bodies, that's before you talk about what any school or company then asks you to do. what we're personally asking our bodies to do, it's not sustainable. to be in peak condition six days a week, every week of the year — and that is the reality still in many of these companies that the need to obviously have people come to our theatre and enjoy these extraordinary art forms means that the demand is there for us to be performing regularly.

and to look pretty perfect. i mean, we should talk about the appearance side of all of this, because that's something most sportsmen and women don't have to think about to any degree, in the way you do. is ballet unhealthy in its emphasis on body shape? if you lined all of us principal dancers currently at the royal ballet in a line, it would be impossible for anybody to say, "that is the ideal body type". and so i believe that the narratives now, it's got to completely shift. it's not about what is the body type or you need to look a certain way. it's about the actual health and physicality of the individual unique body. if you look that way and you've achieved that in the healthiest of ways possible to have a long, healthy career, but also go beyond your but also go beyond your career and actually career and actually

be a healthy human individual, then that's what the then that's what the focus needs to be. focus needs to be. but i wonder, perhaps that's but i wonder, perhaps that's more true for men and boys more true for men and boys than for women and girls. than for women and girls. would you acknowledge would you acknowledge that, that the pressures that, that the pressures on female dancers on female dancers are more extreme? are more extreme? historically, i agree, i absolutely agree. historically, i agree, i absolutely agree. and i also believe that that and i also believe that that narrative is shifting — narrative is shifting — the concept of or the pressure the concept of or the pressure being put onto the ballerina being put onto the ballerina to look a certain way. to look a certain way. i hear what you're saying, i hear what you're saying, and yet i wonder to what extent and yet i wonder to what extent things have really changed. things have really changed. you still hear girls, you still hear girls, or now women who've been embrace the world of sport, or now women who've been through ballet schools talking through ballet schools talking about, you know, about, you know, comments made about their weight comments made about their weight or being appreciated more or being appreciated more when they've lost weight when they've lost weight or even sleeping or even sleeping with cling film around them with cling film around them to try and sweat off weight. to try and sweat off weight. i mean, you're nodding, i mean, you're nodding, you've heard... you've heard... you know, this kind you know, this kind of thing goes on. of thing goes on. it does still go on, it does still go on, doesn't it? doesn't it? yeah, i definitely yeah, i definitely know stories of this. know stories of this. i've had, you know, colleagues i've had, you know, colleagues as students who believed as students who believed that that was something that that was something they needed to do. they needed to do. i never once witnessed i never once witnessed any teacher saying to any teacher saying to a student that that's a student that that's what they needed to do. what they needed to do. i think now, because the i think now, because the industry has evolved so much industry has evolved so much

and it is starting to really and it is starting to really embrace the world of sport, we now realise that of course, that's ridiculous.

yeah, so i look back at yeah, so i look back at the younger me and just think, the younger me and just think, how on earth did i do how on earth did i do what i was doing? what i was doing? i have photos of me holding my i have photos of me holding my newborn daughter, newborn daughter, and i look like and i look like a 12—year—old boy... a 12—year—old boy... so skinny? so skinny? ..holding my daughter. ..holding my daughter. not evenjust skinny. not evenjust skinny. i look drawn and exhausted. i look drawn and exhausted. it upsets me because of course it upsets me because of course at the time i thought that at the time i thought that that was the ideal, and i'm that was the ideal, and i'm pretty sure that i would not pretty sure that i would not have opened my mind that much have opened my mind that much if i hadn't experienced if i hadn't experienced for myself what it is to for myself what it is to actually rebuild the body actually rebuild the body from scratch again. from scratch again. in some ways, what you're in some ways, what you're saying is quite an indictment saying is quite an indictment of the system that of the system that you've spent a lot of you've spent a lot of your career in, and you're your career in, and you're now in a senior position now in a senior position when you have the confidence when you have the confidence to say what you are. to say what you are. so, if you are running so, if you are running a ballet company because, a ballet company because, you must be thinking you must be thinking about what you do next... about what you do next... you are now 38, which in your you are now 38, which in your world is at the more world is at the more

senior end, shall i say... senior end, shall i say...

how to work efficiently... there used to be a culture in the world of dance that the only way to achieve something is repetition — do it again, do it again, and let's do it six days in a row. and we know scientifically that that's not the case. the royal ballet is at the forefront trying to make that happen. but we need as an industry to really, really change it. and at the same time of bringing new audiences in, because i'm struck by the fact that the production that you're returning to on the stage here, the role that you're returning to, is the mad hatter. it's a role that combines tap and ballet, doesn't it? which goes back to your roots in some ways, because you were known for tap before you were known to this extent in ballet.

people always say, "oh, you're a ballet dancer." and yes, i'm a principal dancer of the royal ballet, but i always have just seen myself as a dancer. i'm an artist. and when alice's adventures in wonderland was created, the choreographer christopher wheeldon knew that i had tapped. and he's very clever at amalgamating styles and bringing different influences into his choreography. so, yeah, the tap shoes were requested and... you must have been surprised because they are very different disciplines, aren't they? they are, but then if you look at gene kelly, fred astaire, they were amalgamating the styles then, and that's i think, the beauty of it. we do now have more boys going into ballet than was the case when you started out,

but there's still a high drop—off rate. so what would you say to try and keep boys and young men in the discipline? i mean, it comes from the teachers, doesn't it? it comes from the teachers empowering the young students to really understand and appreciate that the world of dance and the arts in general can literally be a gateway to the world. we need to be able to have society finally relax and allow boys, girls, whoever to actually enjoy what it is they're passionate about. if you've got a young boy that's passionate about it at a young age and then it starts to drop off, that passion just doesn't disappear overnight — that's from society. that's from the pressures around them of conforming or wanting to obviously fit in with their peers. and i think if there is a young boy watching this or a parent watching this, my father was so influential with how i approached that. it was asked to my father, "what's this we hear your son is dancing?" and he just said to them, "yeah, he's amazing. you should come and watch him." and i had a situation where some bigger guys came up and asked me the same thing.

"what's this? we hear you dance." and it was my father in my head. and i looked them in the eye and said, "apparently i'm pretty good, you should come and watch." and they left me alone. i mean, of course, and it happens still today. i'm a grown man. society still throws comments your way. but i learned very quickly at a young age, why give those people your energy and the satisfaction of giving them the reaction that they wanted? i was so fortunate at a young age to find a passion. i was absolutely sure as hell not going to let somebody with that opinion deter me from pursuing that passion. is it still a passion, though, that to pursue you have to be prepared to live with pain? and i mean physical pain.

the reality is our body is our instrument. it's our tool. it's not as easy as taking it to the car garage and having a service and they replace a part. i do have a new achilles and a new knee, but the reality is, when you use your tool every single day, it is going to break down, it's going to malfunction. i don't think any amount of healthcare can actually prevent you from doing damage to your body. that is the art form. but these big injuries no longer will determine whether your career ends or carries on, and that's something i'm so proud of. it was a huge moment to step back out onto the royal opera house stage, but i felt it was a bigger moment, way beyond my own selfish drive to get back on stage. it was a huge moment for the industry and for all those young dancers, my colleagues in the company, to say to them, this

is an art form where you do wear your heart on your sleeve. you can't go on stage and hold back. that's not what the audience want to experience. but does that mean that you are often in pain when you dance? yeah, absolutely. and if you ask every top athlete, they'll be saying the same. i'm a huge admirer of andy murray, and of course, in those final years, he obviously couldn't even hide the pain that he was in. but his passion for what he was doing, his own drive of what he was doing, i found totally inspiring. and it would be the same in the world of dance. of course i wake up in the morning, it takes me a good ten, 15 minutes to even be able to walk properly. i walk down the stairs backwards because it's easier on the achilles and the knee, and my children think it's normal that their father walks down the stairs backwards. they don't even question it. it'sjust the norm. always, orjust in the morning? every morning. every morning? yeah, that's the reality. but i'm also very proud that

i can sit here and say that i no longer perform heavily medicated on painkillers and anti—inflammation drugs. i've been able to move away from that particular culture. makes me think that the audiences to whom you give a sort of magical experience, they'll wonder at what you do, but they won't really know what you go through. of course, there's an element of the mystique. the magic don't show everything that goes on behind the scenes, because that's the point. people want to come to the theatre and escape it. but i do believe it's important to share much of our profession, not only for the next generations, but for society. what will you do next, do you think, when this time as a principal dancer here comes to an end? oh, it's no secret i love this profession. i'm so passionate about this profession. it has genuinely transformed my life. and i will do everything i can to support the profession, to hold up the next generations and make sure that they have the most beautiful careers and lives that they could possibly have. i will do everything i possibly can to ensure that we keep

having these conversations to celebrate the dance world and also the arts. steven mcrae, thank you for being on hardtalk. my pleasure. thank you. hello there. the stagnant air at the moment is trapping a lot of misty low clouds and fog across our shores and it feels quite chilly because it's damp as well — only six or seven during the day on thursday. a similar story as we head through friday. some of that fog could linger all day in places and give some hazardous conditions on the roads with those very poor visibilities. as i say, it's because we've got this area of high pressure with us. it's trapping that low level cloud.

further north, yes, we've got a weather front with us that's given some more persistent rain across scotland in particular, some parts of northern ireland. but it's trapping that really cold air to the north, and it's with us once again as we go through the remainder of the night. where we have breaks in the cloud, temperatures will dip close to freezing and also fill in with more mist and fog in these areas. so again, another really grey and murky start for many of us on friday under this area of high pressure. we might find a little bit more breeze picking up in the north, which means that that may aid the lifting of the mist and fog here, and some brighter weather developing to the east of the grampians, but not promised here. perhaps a little brighter in northern ireland, but again, parts of the north—east of england, north wales more favoured for some brighter breaks. but for many of us, it's just grey, misty and it'll feel quite damp again, i think, just really light nuisance value drizzle keeping it at sevens and eights in places. some of that fog even on relatively low hills such as the chilterns and the downs, lingering all day. then, as we go through the night friday night into saturday, we do start to see that weather front making progress further south across scotland, so introducing some clearer skies in the north. but it's the same as usual.

business as usual further south — it's misty, murky, grey and dank, so temperatures generally above freezing by night. and on saturday that weather front promises to introduce a bit of patchy rain further south across northern england, northern ireland. but to the north of it means brighter skies but with some showers, a little bit wintry over the hills and still that cloudy, misty, murky weather further south. perhaps a few breaks developing as we head into sunday, but we do have to wait probably until next week to get the really cold air filtering back southwards once again, and with it potential for some really turbulent weather as well. but by sunday, we might see a few more brighter breaks in the south instead. in the north, some heavier rain and perhaps some hill snow, too. more online.

live from washington. this is bbc news. israel launches a barrage of airstrikes on houthi targets in yemen, including the capital's international airport.

and moscow pushes back against growing speculation it may have been involved in the deadly crash of a passenger plane. tribute pouring for the former indian prime minister who has died at the age of 92. the united nations is condemning the latest escalation between yemen and israel — warning that airtrikes on red sea ports and airports pose grave risks to humanitarian operations. israel earlier launched multiple retaliatory airstrikes against the iran—backed houthis in yemen — reportedly killing at least three people. the israel defense forces said it was conducting "intelligence—based strikes on military targets belonging to the houthi terrorist regime on the western coast and inland yemen". the strikes hit port towns and power stations —

as well as the international airport in yemen's