who works with the likes of google, etsy and citibank, tells me what it takes for a ceo to succeed as the leader of a multinational corporation. and this leading expert on ceo pay tells me how the us is leading the world and why too much pay at the top can be damaging for both companies and societies. plus, we'll speak to serial entrepreneur marcia kilgore, the woman behind beauty pie and fitflop, about the responsibility of running a company and what drives her to keep going, even though she's already made her millions. wherever you'rejoining me from, welcome to the show. this week, we're asking, how important is the boss to the success of a company?

and just how much is a good one really worth — $5 million, $100 million or $56 billion? the likes of boeing, disney, nike and starbucks have made some pretty high—profile and expensive changes recently, but companies this big have billions of dollars of sales each year, and the boss is just one person out of tens of thousands that are often spread right around the world, so what difference can one person really make? struggling global coffee giant starbucks has high hopes for its new boss. brian niccol was poached from the us restaurant chain chipotle with a four—year pay package worth more than $110 million and the use of a private jet so he can commute long distances as he tries to turn the company around. and nike is replacing ceo john donahoe after a series of missteps that have cut its market share. nonetheless, over nearly five years in charge, he's earned nearly $104 million, despite the company losing $40 billion worth of value. another company to lose billions in value

is plane—maker boeing. its recently departed boss, dave calhoun, lost his job after struggling to deal effectively with a series of safety incidents, including two fatal accidents. despite that, he got a pay package worth more than $30 million as he was leaving. this graph marks the change in ceos, and as you can see, that can sometimes lead to a pretty big swing in a company's value, as investors express their confidence — or otherwise — in the individual leading a company. for those individuals running an s&p 500 company in the us, the median pay package has been rising steadily, hitting a record high of $16.3 million last year. shares often make up a big part of the typical award. the top earners were way above that. hock tan, who runs chip—maker broadcom, got $162 million. nikesh arora got $151 million

at cybersecurity firm palo alto networks. and investment giant blackstone paid stephen schwarzman $120 million. since 2017, us companies have been required to disclose the gap between ceos and the rest, and it now shows the median ceo is getting paid 196 times as much as the median worker. disney's ceo, bob iger, is in his second stint in the job. towards the end of the first run, he was asked by my colleague amol rajan what it does for american capitalism when there's a big differential between the guy at the top and the guy at the bottom. i am proud of their compensation. i'm proud of the benefits that we've bestowed upon them. i'm proud of the opportunities we've created for them, because there's been huge upward mobility in our company by the very people that started at the bottom — i'm one of them — and

enabled themselves to not only work their way up, but to work their way up and earn more. however much an employee earns, elon musk is hoping to outstrip them all. the founder of the electric carmaker tesla is going through the courts to get the $56 billion package shareholders awarded him. if it comes off, it would be the biggest pay package in us history. as the boss, he's had to make difficult decisions, like at x, where he cut lots ofjobs quite abruptly when he took over. he explained the responsibility to my colleaguejames clayton. i wouldn't say uncaring. you know, the issue is, like, the company's either going to go bankrupt... ..if we do not cut costs immediately. this is not a caring/uncaring situation. it's like, "if the whole ship sinks, then nobody�*s got a job." so what does it take for the ceo to make sure they're doing theirjob properly? what are the skills they need and that are worth so much money? i've been speaking to one top executive coach who works with the likes

of microsoft, avon and standard chartered bank. alisa cohn, welcome to the programme. i just want to begin with this, because one of the most recent eye—watering pay packets that we've noticed — totalling more than $110 million, plus the use of a jet to commute — has been for the new boss of starbucks. so how does a company decide what a boss — a single individual — is actually worth? mostly, it's the board who decides, based on market comps, based on certainly bringing external consultants in, and also getting a little bit of a sense of what this new person could do, you know, for the company. so in the case of brian niccol being brought into starbucks, i think it's pretty obvious that there's a big hope for him and his ability to turn that company around, which is certainly needed right now. if we stick with starbucks's brian niccoljust for a moment,

he's been brought in to try and turn around a company which employs nearly 400,000 people around the world. and he has a host of problems, including products, stores and pricing. so how does a single individual go about tackling a list of problems like that? a single individual does it because he's the ceo, and what he's able to do, what the ceo is able to do is to certainly set a new strategy. so that may sound kind of like pie—in—the—sky, but i think it's really important for the ceo to really assess what's going on and to set up a specific game plan to make that turnaround. the second thing the ceo can do is set the culture — so, for example, in the case of brian nicoll, him making sure that people are coming back to the office to work together, not in a draconian way, necessarily, but understanding that there is a need to bring people back into the office. i don't agree or disagree with that, but setting the culture and setting the expectations is one example of

what he's able to do to turn a large company around with, as you said, 400,000 employees. building the planes are making the coffee? they can be responsible in the sense that they are the ones that say the strategy for the company, they are the ones setting the culture for the company, truthfully the buck stops with them in terms of their accountability. so what they are able to do is sort of set up the context and i think your point, their role in some ways is to be that lightning rod. that's why it's so hard to be the ceo because they can be responsible in the sense that they are the ones that say the strategy for the company, they are the ones setting the culture for the company, truthfully the buck stops with them in terms of their accountability. so what they are able to do is sort of set up the context and i think your point, their role in some ways is to be that lightning rod. that's why it's so hard to be the ceo because really, any discontent, any concerns, and he all come back to you. everyone is second—guessing you,

they don't like what you do, so there is a lot of pressure to both keep, you know, the northstar that you are enacting inside of the company in light of so many different opinions and criticisms about you. alisa, how important is it to the success of a ceo that they understand the culture of a company? so, for example, are in—house promotions a better bet for the ceo position, as recent events at nestle and nike indicate? it's such an interesting question — because so often, boards want change, so they want to bring in someone from the outside. and when that person doesn't understand the culture, doesn't understand how to work inside of the company, that is in some ways a huge impediment. at the same time, you probably would think somebody who's been internal, for example, at nike and even at disney, they've been internal for a while, and they maybe understand the culture too well and are, in some ways, not the agents of change. so i think as a board, when you're thinking

about who the new ceo needs to be, you need to balance the need to do something inside of the culture, to sort of find somebody who can do a good job in working inside of the culture, but also be able to bring the change. i honestly think that the new nike ceo is probably the best exemplar of that, in the sense that he obviously was there for 32 years, and then also he had time away, so he brings the sort of external/internal view that would be very useful — hopefully will be very useful — for nike right now. you coach executives at some of the biggest names, including google, etsy and johnson &johnson. so what are the most important characteristics to be a successful ceo? and can they be taught? can anyone take on being a ceo at one of these major companies? the most important quality that you need to be the ceo is knowing that you will be able to be the ceo. there is a sense of confidence and, you know, healthy ego that you need to bring to the table. the second thing you need

to bring to the table is an ability to adapt. so you've got to be able to assess the situation, make some important decisions and then adapt them as you go. can that be learned? i think it's an interesting question. there are so many people that get stuck at certain levels of corporate america because they don't have the ability to be decisive. they don't have the ability to be adopted. and they may not in their hearts believe that they can lead this organisation. so as a coach, i always think about inside and then also outside. you need to develop your own sort of internal state to know that you can handle the pressure, the difficulty, the spotlight, and then you also need to develop the external skills around decisiveness and around adaptability, also around strategic skills, to be able to do a good job in that role. given all the executives you've worked with, what would you say motivates them? is it as simple as money for them? or is there something

more innate? most ceos that i coach are motivated by knowing they can make a difference, knowing that they can, you know, turn a company around or grow a company even more. also they're touching, you know, hundreds of thousands of people's lives — and that matters a lot to them. and the ceos that i coach really get excited about the ability to have an impact in the world. and then, of course, there are trappings that come along with that, but they're really focused on stewardship. alisa cohn, thank you very much forjoining us. thank you very much for having me. as i was telling you, there is normally a huge gap between what the ceo of a big corporation gets paid and what the average worker gets. so what impact does that gap have on companies and societies? i've been catching up with a top expert on ceo pay from the washington—based

progressive think tank the institute for policy studies. sarah anderson, welcome to the programme. if we look at the s&p 500, 19 companies paid their bosses more than $50 million last year. and, yes, a lot of that was in shares, but how on earth do these companies come to those numbers? what makes one individual worth so much? this is based on the foolish notion that the person in the corner office is somehow almost single—handedly responsible for corporate value and that the people on the front—lines in these companies, who might have their actual hands on the product and delivering the service, are worth only a fraction of that. and it's a problem that we've seen get worse and worse in the united states, and i've been sad to see that those ceo pay levels have been creeping up in other parts of the world, as well, as the leaders of many global companies point to their american counterparts and say, "hey, why am i not making anything like what that guy's

"making over there? " and so it is really becoming a worldwide problem. sarah, you've been researching ceo pay for more than 30 years. what are the defining trends and changes you've noticed over that time? well, i didn't start quite back this far, but in the 1960s, the gap between a large company ceo in the united states and a typical worker was around 25 to 1. in the 1980s, it had crept up about 40 to 1, but then it really started exploding in the '90s. and now it's not uncommon for them to be 300 to 1, sometimes even thousands of times to one at low—wage companies. and so that has been a disturbing trend, because all of the research has shown that when you have those extreme gaps between ceo and worker pay, you tend to have lower morale and lower productivity

and higher turnover rates. and so it's bad for business. it's not sustainable over the long term. what are the broader impacts for an economy when you have the figureheads of companies such as tesla boss elon musk earning so much — i mean, he's still going through the courts to try and get his $56 billion pay package — versus the lower pay of key workers such as nurses and teachers? i think runaway ceo pay is bad for our economy, bad for democracy and bad for business. too much money is being siphoned and extracted from workers who are doing toughjobs at lower levels of the pay scale and funnelled up to the top, to the point where we have so much money concentrated in so few hands that it is a threat to our democracy. it's a threat to pushing for policies, like we have not had a raise in the minimum wage in the united states for over a decade. big, powerful corporate interests have blocked that kind ofjust small, modest steps of progress

to having a more equitably shared economy. and it can contribute to people shirking their responsibilities cos they feel like, "why should i try that hard "when i'm getting such a small reward for the labour "that i'm putting into this?" a recent bentley university gallup survey found that 82% of americans think it's important to avoid a major pay gap between the ceo and the average worker. and a think tank recently suggested higher tax rates for companies where the gap is too big. do you think that's the sort of idea that could be a vote—winner in the upcoming election? or is it politically too toxic for presidential candidates given they end up dealing with these individuals? pushing for policies to crack down on ceo pay would absolutely be a vote—winner. i have spoken to groups in small towns in swing states in four different states now. i would walk into audiences of republicans and expect to get a lot of debating, and i'd be allarmed with my arguments against extreme ceo pay levels, and what i found

was enormous common ground. the problem is that big money has huge influence over our political system, and candidates are afraid to rock the boat when it comes to their campaign finance. not all of them, but every poll is showing that this is a trans—partisan issue. across the political spectrum, people are just fed up. do you think the pressure of the majority of workers around the world have been feeling with inflation in recent years has made companies and politicians many more inclined to add executive pay? i would like to thank so, i also would like to thank that the pandemic should have made it even more obvious that people doing some of the lowest paid work and our country are absolutely essential. and yet, as soon the heat was off,

companies stopped giving out there little extra hardship pay, they went right back down to the rock— bottom wages at a lot of those essential companies, and you know, i'm still waiting for it. i thought after the 2008 financial crisis that the mistake would be gone, that these were not the top talents in our economy that were responsible for driving our economy off a cliff and resulting in millions of people losing their houses and theirjobs. and yet, almost immediately the big banks and other financial firms that were complicit in that national crisis turned around and started giving out big bonus and is again. and it is a deeply entrenched systemic problem, it's going to take public policy i think to change it. sarah anderson, thank you very much. all right, thanks. how does one individual cope with the weight

and responsible use of running a business? there are any number of big decisions to make and then there is the responsibility for thousands of staff and their... and still to come, the beauty of business — serial entrepreneur marcia kilgore tells me how she's succeeded running company after company. welcome back. marcia kilgore, welcome to the programme. on this week's show, we're looking at the importance of the ceo to a company, and you've started a string of companies of your own. in your experience, what is it that a ceo can do for a company that no—one else can? you know, i think it's so important to have a great ceo and to have somebody who can really look at the different streams of work that need to be done, make those organised, prioritised, make sure that the different teams

in the company are working together harmoniously and ensuring that time is not wasted, money is not wasted and energy is not wasted on things that are not going to move the dial for the company, while ensuring that there is a great, enterprising and inspiring corporate culture throughout. marcia, when you're running a company responsible for the livelihoods of hundreds or thousands of people, but also have to think about other things like shareholders, climate change and products — to name a few — what weighs most heavily on you as an individual? it's really the human cost and making sure that everyone is given an opportunity to flourish in whatever it is that they've been hired to do within the business. it's so important for me that we are able to pull from each individual the talent that they both naturally have and then are able to develop over the course of their time within the business. it can be really a difficult thing to manage amidst all of the other pressures that you have. it's a hard balance to find.

you've also sold companies for big money. what is it like to let go of those companies and watch somebody else take responsibility for something you built up from scratch? for me, i am really a builder. builders are people who between year one and seven, really love that pace. they love solving really difficult problems, they really like building teams and make sure that everybody is running fast and efficiently. and trying to get something from stasis to rolling and that is where i am best. so for me, selling a business to a much larger corporation who might be better fit to do that next stage of the business is really quite natural for me. as long as they will respect

with the business was about in the first place come not forget what made us successful then for me it's actually really 0k. and how did it all start for you? how did you know you wanted to be and could succeed as a serial entrepreneur and run company after company after company? well, you know, here's the funny thing — i still don't know really, truly that i'm a successful entrepreneur. i think part of being wired as an entrepreneur is you never actually believe it. you think it's going to fall apart tomorrow. you think everything is just going to explode if you do one, you know, small...or make one small misstep. so i am really down right in the details, most likely to my own detriment, just because i really want everything to work. and i always believe that it's too good to be true. one of your companies is the footwear brand fitflop, which sells everything from flip flops and sandals to trainers and boots. and i know you're not the ceo yourself, but this year, the brand has been launching a refresh of its line—up and a global expansion. when you're leading a company,

how do you know it's time to take major steps like that? with any brand, in fact, every few years you do need to have a refresh. so you need to look back at what made you successful in the first place, and then look at how that might be relevant to the market today. you need to make sure that all your price points are in line with the market price points and any new competition that has come in. you need to look at where products are selling in volume, where technology is, if any of your competitors have come in and bettered your technology or gotten close to it, and where you are sitting in the market, whether that is america or the americas, emea or asia. and i think coming out of covid, it was just a perfect time for us to reassess where we were as a brand, what our technology looked like, where we were sitting amidst the competitive landscape and just, you know, give it a big push. another of your companies is the membership—based cosmetics firm beauty pie, which sells discounted make—up. it was just last year that you appointed kevin cornils as the first ceo of beauty pie. so ijust wonder, as a founder, how do you go about picking

the person to be your ceo and run your baby? it is hard to find someone who is smart enough to be able to run so many different programmes in their head, as is necessary when you're running something like beauty pie. beauty pie, obviously, we launch dozens of new products every year. what we have to do is not only create those products and communicate them for our current members, but then also we have to go out into the universe and convince new prospective members that it's a great idea tojoin our club. so those two streams, in addition so those two streams, in addition to building your own software, to building your own software, in addition to all the legal things in addition to all the legal things that come along with creating your own product, with laboratories, making sure that everything is, you know, according to the highest level of cosmetic standards and safety, it's an awful lot to do. so in interviewing ceo candidates, i'll just say you probably eliminate quite a lot of them just because they don't have the intellectual bandwidth. that come along with creating your

and then, of course, they have to be able to put up with me... laughter ..which is a whole additional thing because i am quite impatient, i always want it to be better. you've got to have a lot of patience also to deal with a founder who's very passionate. if we go back to the ceo theme of the show, how many companies is it that you've started now and what makes you want to keep going rather than putting your feet up and enjoying the rewards of all that hard work? i believe i have now had, in my experience, five companies. i'll tell you, just continuously i'm thinking of ideas, and i don't know what i would do all day. i think probably in a past life, if you believe in that kind of thing, i must have been a market trader, because what really thrills me is finding great stuff and then selling it to people, especially when selling it to people, you know they are going to be very, very happy with whatever the outcome of

them using that product is. and getting that feedback is like a continuous pat on the back. i just love to invent things, and i thinkjust being able to improve the status quo is an intellectual challenge for me, and then being able to bring it to prospective customers is a really social thing. and as i'm not an of northern england, employee, right, i have to sort of create my team. so i've got that family vibe and a lot of people to stimulate my mind every day. marcia kilgore, thank you very much. thanks for having me. well, that's all for this week. you can keep up with all the latest on the global economy on the bbc news website and its smartphone app. don't forget, you can get in touch with me and some of the team on social media. i'm @marklobel on x. till next time, bye—bye. hello. snow has been falling

across parts of the uk. it has been causing disruption, some icy conditions, as well. and i think the problems will go on into sunday. so, met office amber warnings remain in force — those warnings have been covering parts of wales, into the midlands, and also northern england — and i think it is northern england that will bear the brunt of the snowfall as we head through daylight hours on sunday. through the first part of the morning, still some snow falling across high ground, north wales, the north midlands. could see 30cm in total for some higher ground here. at lower levels, perhaps turning back to sleet and rain in places, but that snow continuing to fall across northern england, remaining very cold here as we start the day. milder, you'll notice, down to the south west, 12 celsius there in plymouth. now, as we go through the day, where we have that mild air in the south, it will be rain that falls from the sky. quite windy, particularly around the coasts. some really heavy rain setting in once again across parts of wales

through the afternoon. through the afternoon. snow will continue to affect parts snow will continue to affect parts of northern england,

hello, i'm helena humphrey. i'm glad you could join me. the body of the late us presidentjimmy carter has arrived at his presidential library in georgia, as america begins six days of funeral ceremonies to pay respect to its 39th president, who died last week at the age of 100. the cortege carrying mr carter's coffin, and members of his family, made its first stop saturday at the georgia state capitol building in atlanta, where he served as governor during the 19705. the procession then carried on to the carter presidential centre. mr carter's body will lie there in repose for the public to pay their respects over the next several days. but, far from the sprawling streets of atlanta, or the monuments of washington where his funeral will take place on thursday, mr carter's finaljourney began in the same tiny georgia town where he was born — in plains. 0ur carl nasman was there.

jimmy carter, returning for the final time