joining me tonight are leslie vinjamuri, director of us and americas programme at chatham house, and carwynjones, former first minister of wales and leader of welsh labour from 2009 to 2018. first, the latest headlines. canada's prime minister, justin trudeau, is to step down after nine years in office. he's been under pressure in recent months, with his liberal party slumping in the polls, amid a cost of living crisis and poilitical scandals. he'll stay on as caretaker leader until a successor is found, with a general election due later this year. more than 60 million americans are in the grip of a huge winter storm that could bring the heaviest snow — and lowest temperatures — in a decade. several inches of snow

have fallen in eastern parts of the us. a state of emergency has been declared in seven states, including missouri, kansas and kentucky. more than 1700 flights have been cancelled. donald trump's election victory has been certified by the us congress, exactly four years after his supporters violently stormed the capitol building. today's ceremony passed peacefully. it was overseen by kamala harris in her role as vice president. major incidents have been declared in the midlands due to serious flooding. dozens of people have been taken to safety including 50 children at a school near bourne. one woman stranded in her car in leicestershire had a narrow escape, when she was rescued by the owner of a local pub. in the last decade, as the populist right made advances across the west, justin trudeau bucked the trend. leading an unashamedly liberal, leftist, government — and surviving. during the first trump term, he was the counterpoint

to the anti—immigrant, climate—sceptic agenda on the other side of canada's long border. trump liked to needle trudeau. he recently referred to him as "the governor "of the great state of canada". not only was trump turning against him, but so were the majority in canada. the last few years have been difficult to say the least — canada is running a huge budget deficit, 3 million immigrants have arrived in just over 3 years, and his carbon taxes were deeply unpopular. today he finally bowed to the pressure, announcing his esignation. 0utside his residence at rideau cottage in ottawa. my friends, as you know, i am a fighter, every bone in my body has told me to fight because i care deeply about canadians, i care deeply about this country and i will always be motivated by what is in the best interest of canadians. this country deserves a real choice in the next election, and it has become clear to me

that, if i am having to fight internal battles, i cannot be the best option in that election. trudeau says he will stay on until his party chooses a new leader. in the meantime he has prorogued parliament — suspending its business — until march. that effectively means the government remains in power, but all parliamentary activity — from existing bills, committee, investigations — that all comes to a halt. in the last hour we spoke to his former environment minister catherine mccenna, who was the first to call on trudeau to go. so it was to protect policies. so here there is an opportunity for a new leader, it is going to be very hard, but elections are about choices

and we have good people who will step up, and canadians will be able to choose. who will step up, and canadians is who will step up, and canadians this part of a biggl political is this part of a bigger political trend across the west? , . , political trend across the west? germany. people call it the pepulist — west? germany. people call it the populist right _ west? germany. people call it the populist right but - west? germany. people call it the populist right but i - west? germany. people call it the populist right but i don't . the populist right but i don't call them that, the far right. there are two things here. firstly, the longer you are leader the more difficult it becomes to maintain your position, you are like chewing gum, you start great, but by the end there is no taste to it, and problems pile up, justin trudeau faced too many problems and was a drain on his party's problems and was a drain on his pa rty�*s electoral problems and was a drain on his party's electoral prospects and when that happens there is no way out. it was not helped by the way that he dealt with donald trump. if you try to placate donald trump he sees it as a sign of weakness and that's exactly what happened with justin trudeau,

that's exactly what happened withjustin trudeau, i don't think he was popular in canada for not standing up for canada. i do not think that that helped him either. inevitably, with being in power a long time, your ability to refresh yourself and appeal in the same way as you did in the beginning does diminish. in way as you did in the beginning does diminish.— way as you did in the beginning does diminish. in terms of what ha--ens does diminish. in terms of what happens next. _ does diminish. in terms of what happens next, some _ does diminish. in terms of what happens next, some canadians| happens next, some canadians have been in touch will not supporters ofjustin trudeau, they are annoyed that he is staying until march and that parliament has been prorogued, it is a status quo situation for three months when a lot of the country what selections and the country what selections and the change. it the country what selections and the change-— the change. it is a difficult time not _ the change. it is a difficult time not to _ the change. it is a difficult time not to have - the change. it is a difficult time not to have a - the change. it is a difficult time not to have a leader| the change. it is a difficult. time not to have a leader in place — time not to have a leader in place in _ time not to have a leader in place in canada, we know that canada — place in canada, we know that canada is _ place in canada, we know that canada is on the chopping block for the — canada is on the chopping block for the incoming president donald _ for the incoming president donald trump on the question of tariffs _ donald trump on the question of tariffs so — donald trump on the question of tariffs so having that vacuum, even — tariffs so having that vacuum, even if — tariffs so having that vacuum, even if he _ tariffs so having that vacuum, even if he is still in power, not — even if he is still in power, not having, having parliament knowing — not having, having parliament knowing that he is leaving makes _ knowing that he is leaving makes canada very vulnerable.

to the — makes canada very vulnerable. to the question of whether it is a trend. _ to the question of whether it is a trend, it is not so much a trend — is a trend, it is not so much a trend towards the far right, it is a trend _ trend towards the far right, it is a trend of anti—incumbency, and— is a trend of anti—incumbency, and justin _ is a trend of anti—incumbency, and justin trudeau has been hit by the — and justin trudeau has been hit by the same complaints, that the cost — by the same complaints, that the cost of living is too high, he got — the cost of living is too high, he got caught up in the anti—immigration wave when he was initially willing to open the gates, he faced a backlash for that, — the gates, he faced a backlash for that, and then trump becomes a source of division four— becomes a source of division four leaders debating how best to respond, and christian freeland, his finance minister, clearly— freeland, his finance minister, clearly had a different view, she has— clearly had a different view, she has a _ clearly had a different view, she has a huge amount of respect, _ she has a huge amount of respect, and when she resigned, that was— respect, and when she resigned, that was a — respect, and when she resigned, that was a final moment in the lead _ that was a final moment in the lead up — that was a final moment in the lead up to— that was a final moment in the lead up to what is a very significant decision and a very difficult — significant decision and a very difficult time.— difficult time. four weeks, donald trump _ difficult time. four weeks, donald trump had - difficult time. four weeks, donald trump had been i difficult time. four weeks, - donald trump had been trolling justin trudeau, threatening him with that 25% tariff but he's

not the only target, for weeks now, elon musk, part of the incoming administration has been trolling the british prime minister. in their interest in tommy robinson, not interested in justice, their supporting men who went to prison for nearly collapsing a grooming case, a

gang grooming collapsing a grooming case, a gang groomin- collapsing a grooming case, a gang grooming case. these are --eole gang grooming case. these are peeple try _ gang grooming case. these are peeple try to — gang grooming case. these are peeple try to get _ gang grooming case. these are people try to get some - gang grooming case. these are people try to get some kind - gang grooming case. these are people try to get some kind of| people try to get some kind of thrill— people try to get some kind of thrill from street violence the people — thrill from street violence the people like tommy robinson promoted and those attacking jess phillips who i am proud to call a _ jess phillips who i am proud to call a colleague and a friend, not protecting victims, jess phillips— not protecting victims, jess phillips has done a thousand times— phillips has done a thousand times more than the vm dreamt about— times more than the vm dreamt about when it comes to protecting victims of sexual abuse — protecting victims of sexual abuse throughout her entire career— abuse throughout her entire career -- _ abuse throughout her entire career —— and they have even dreamt — career —— and they have even dreamt about. career -- and they have even dreamt about.— dreamt about. leslie, let me start with — dreamt about. leslie, let me start with you _ dreamt about. leslie, let me start with you on _ dreamt about. leslie, let me start with you on this. - some of the comments from other european leaders. emmanuel macron has decides to musk vertically intervening in elections, german chancellor 0laf scholz has condemned him for supporting an extreme right party, the afd. the norwegian prime ministers that he found it worrying that someone with such immense wealth and influence was interfering in the politics of european nations. today, ed davey said it is time to some of the us ambassador to ask why an

incoming us official is suggesting the uk government should be overthrown. how long can this be tenable? it is untenable. elon musk is clearly— it is untenable. elon musk is clearly overstepping. he is not an elected official. it is not clear— an elected official. it is not clear what the guardrails are for restraining him. it is absolutely the right move for european leaders to speak out against — european leaders to speak out against this, but it needs to be against this, but it needs to he a — against this, but it needs to be a much more of a sort of whole — be a much more of a sort of whole of— be a much more of a sort of whole of society and society's leaders. _ whole of society and society's leaders, condemning the unhelpful, and also very harmfui— unhelpful, and also very harmful intervention that elon musk— harmful intervention that elon musk is— harmful intervention that elon musk is making. ultimately, the cheque — musk is making. ultimately, the cheque on— musk is making. ultimately, the cheque on elon musk presumably needs— cheque on elon musk presumably needs to — cheque on elon musk presumably needs to be donald trump. there is no _ needs to be donald trump. there is no evidence that trump intends _ is no evidence that trump intends to restrain elon musk's use of—

intends to restrain elon musk's use of x. — intends to restrain elon musk's use of x, twitter, any social media — use of x, twitter, any social media platforms for making these — media platforms for making these kind of interventions, and — these kind of interventions, and in — these kind of interventions, and in the absence of the president elect exercising that kind of— president elect exercising that kind of influence, it has really _ kind of influence, it has really got to come from europe and from — really got to come from europe and from other leaders across the world, but it cannot be just— the world, but it cannot be just those leaders but people in business, the peers of elon musk, — in business, the peers of elon musk, back to the extent that he has — musk, back to the extent that he has any bot this is a very unprecedented and potentially destructive and damaging influence that elon musk has in the us— influence that elon musk has in the us context, across many countries — the us context, across many countries and it is unprecedented, it is very difficult _ unprecedented, it is very difficult to know how to deal with — difficult to know how to deal with it. _ difficult to know how to deal with it, but simply turning a blind — with it, but simply turning a blind eye _ with it, but simply turning a blind eye to think is the wrong way to— blind eye to think is the wrong way to go _ blind eye to think is the wrong way to 90-— way to go. obviously, carwyn jones, way to go. obviously, carwyn jones. they — way to go. obviously, carwyn jones, they have _ way to go. obviously, carwyn jones, they have thought - way to go. obviously, carwyn l jones, they have thought about it over the weekend and thought about what the right response should be. they did not refer to him by name today. it is the difficult issue for the labour government. clearly, he is

going to continue this. ijust wonder at what point they draw a line. i wonder at what point they draw a line. ~ wonder at what point they draw a line. ,, ., ., ., ., , a line. i think, to rationalise this, he _ a line. i think, to rationalise this, he is— a line. i think, to rationalise this, he is not _ a line. i think, to rationalise this, he is not a _ a line. i think, to rationalise this, he is not a stupid - a line. i think, to rationalise| this, he is not a stupid man, what is he trying to do? i think he is trying to provoke a response, he is coming out today with is dreamland part of america, and let's invade britain, but a guess that is a step too far and he has done that with jess phillips and step too far and he has done that withjess phillips and sir keir starmer, going down a dark hole, supporting tommy robinson, that is not going to get many favours all support in britain, he only has a tiny number of supporters. i don't know where he's going with that one. he has got to be careful. because people will say, who does he think he is, interfering in our politics? that is a problem for him. he has got to restrain himself. you have got the forces of maga

on x, who can, and then simultaneously we have got trump using libel laws to attack critics and shut down free speech, it is an interesting dynamic. free speech, it is an interestin: d namic. , interesting dynamic. does free seech interesting dynamic. does free speech mean _ interesting dynamic. does free speech mean riesebeek- interesting dynamic. does free speech mean riesebeek barbie will not only for the privilege to have got a lot of money? i do not see much evidence of free speech for everybody. but i think that it is right to point out, it is important that elon musk understands that people will turn against him, his followers on twitter will not criticise him, in any way, but he was admired for many years a somebody progressive, who pushed electric vehicles, seen as environmentalist, and he is in danger of ruining that reputation to the extent that people will not buy teslas, i

don't know the commercial reason for that. do don't know the commercial reason for that.— don't know the commercial reason for that. do you think ou reason for that. do you think you have _ reason for that. do you think you have drifted _ reason for that. do you think you have drifted to _ reason for that. do you think you have drifted to the - reason for that. do you think you have drifted to the far. you have drifted to the far right? i you have drifted to the far riuht? ., , , right? i would put him in his own unique _ right? i would put him in his own unique category, - right? i would put him in his i own unique category, different from _ own unique category, different from maga, from the broader movement, because of his phenomenal economic power, but going _ phenomenal economic power, but going back to the debate over hib visas, in the sector that he has — hib visas, in the sector that he has made his name in, technology, he came out in support— technology, he came out in support of those hib visas. this— support of those hib visas. this is— support of those hib visas. this is skilled workers coming to america from abroad. from india, to america from abroad. from india. from — to america from abroad. from india, from the _ to america from abroad. from india, from the global - to america from abroad. from india, from the global south. | india, from the global south. and _ india, from the global south. and that _ india, from the global south. and that was really a dividing line between elon musk and the maga _ line between elon musk and the maga movement. he does not tick all the _ maga movement. he does not tick all the boxes but he is clearly anti _ all the boxes but he is clearly anti woke _ all the boxes but he is clearly anti woke and pro—free speech in a very— anti woke and pro—free speech in a very certain sort of way but — in a very certain sort of way but when _ in a very certain sort of way

but when he moves into these pushing — but when he moves into these pushing anti—moderate, and mainstream, pro far right line of attacking countries that are not his— of attacking countries that are not his own, this is when it gets— not his own, this is when it gets to _ not his own, this is when it gets to he _ not his own, this is when it gets to be deeply problematic and we — gets to be deeply problematic and we will have to see if president trump is going to have — president trump is going to have to _ president trump is going to have to decide at what point he is going — have to decide at what point he is going to try to exercise some _ is going to try to exercise some restraint on elon musk, because — some restraint on elon musk, because ultimately it is the us interests — because ultimately it is the us interests that will be hurt, and — interests that will be hurt, and there will be things that trump — and there will be things that trump needs from europe and that is— trump needs from europe and that is coming down the line, there — that is coming down the line, there will— that is coming down the line, there will be things that trump needs— there will be things that trump needs from europe, and elon musk— needs from europe, and elon musk could get in the way. can be 'ust musk could get in the way. can be just quickly _ musk could get in the way. can be just quickly touch on the issue of green issues, that's to greenland, apparently donald trump to greenland, apparently donald trumer is heading to greenland, and... musk tweeted saying "the people of greenland should decide theirfuture and i think they want to be

part of america." he says there are only 57,000 people living on this enormous island, and the person you was responding 1529 00:15:06,965 --> 0