and if you want to carry on watching newsnight please turn over but is it — in starmer�*s words — "amplifying the far—right" to call for a new national enquiry?

good evening. welcome to newsnight in 2025. we're live each weeknight with interviews and insight. your panellists this evening — labour peer baroness shami chakrabati, and deputy editor of the conservative home website for tory grassroots members and activists, henry hill. thanks forjoining us. hope you had a good break. and nick is here as always. we're going to start with the prime minister's very strong criticism of elon musk and the conservatives over the grooming and rape scandals. but first — who are the survivors at the heart of these horrific crimes? here's ruby — not her real name — who was a victim of a rochdale grooming gang. she told me last year that she had been raped 100

times from the age of 12. she spoke to newsnight after an independent review into child sexual exploitation across greater manchester, commissioned by labour mayor andy burnham, which reported that girls in rochdale were "left at the mercy" of paedophile gangs for years because of failings by senior police and council bosses. one day, we went in and there was, like, 30, a0 men sat there waiting for us. 30 to a0 men? yeah. they gave us a litre of vodka with no mixer and ten fags. said, "go and sit down in the other room and drink that." then they had another bottle of vodka inside the room. then we sat and drank, and then it started. then they took one of us, and then they took the other one of us, and then me. and it was like one in, one out. everybody knew. what do you mean, everybody knew? i wasn't quiet about it. like, i told everybody. what did you tell them?

i'm hanging around with older men and i'm getting drunk with older men. like, they knew. you told teachers? yeah. since the start of this year elon musk has posted on the platform he owns, x, 90 times about the issue of these gangs, in support of a new public inquiry into what happened and whether suspects — who were mostly of pakistani heritage — weren't investigated to begin with because council officials and police officers were afraid of being called racist. musk accused sir keir starmer, who was the chief prosecutor for england and wales between 2008 and 2013, of being complict in the "rape of britain." and he described the safeguarding ministerjess phillips as a "rape genocide apologist." today, the prime minister hit back... we've seen this playbook many times, whipping up of intimidation and threats of violence, hoping

that the media will amplify it. jess phillips does not need me or anybody else to speak on her behalf, but when the poison of the far right leads to serious threats tojess phillips and others, then in my book a line has been crossed. what i won't tolerate is this discussion and debate based on lies without calling it out. what i won't tolerate is politicians jumping on the bandwagon simply to get attention. when those politicians sat in government for 1h long years, tweeting, talking, but not doing anything about it. now so desperate for attention that they're amplifying what the far right is saying. what was was behind the decision of

keir starmer doing this today? downing street decided he had to call out elon musk clearly and to do so in a way that would not jeopardise his relationship with donald trump, so he did not name elon musk but he talked about people who are prepared to debase themselves and their country. but this is not over, and there is absolute horror at the highest levels of the government at the incendiary language we have seen from elon musk. and there is going to be a hard—headed assessment, is this just to be a hard—headed assessment, is thisjust in view to be a hard—headed assessment, is this just in view of elon musk or is this just in view of elon musk or is this de—view of the wider administration and the incoming president donald trump? if it is the latter, there may be some very serious questions about the nature of our ongoing security relationship with the us, and the defence secretary said the uk us security relationship is the closest we have

got in the world, we are members of the five eyes group with the us, canada, australia and new zealand, but can you have that level of sharing of this kind of stuff is endorsed by the next president of the us? answer to that question as to whether donald trump agrees with that, we don't know. what to whether donald trump agrees with that, we don't know.— that, we don't know. what do you auree that, we don't know. what do you agree with — that, we don't know. what do you agree with that? _ that, we don't know. what do you agree with that? i _ that, we don't know. what do you agree with that? i agree - that, we don't know. what do you agree with that? i agree with - that, we don't know. what do you | agree with that? i agree with that, and i think keir _ agree with that? i agree with that, and i think keir starmer _ agree with that? i agree with that, and i think keir starmer was - agree with that? i agree with that, and i think keir starmer was right l and i think keir starmer was right to respond. — and i think keir starmer was right to respond, and i know on schulte said it _ to respond, and i know on schulte said it is _ to respond, and i know on schulte said it is best not to respond, but he is _ said it is best not to respond, but he is not — said it is best not to respond, but he is not a — said it is best not to respond, but he is not a role model at the moment _ he is not a role model at the moment. —— i know the german chancellor— moment. —— i know the german chancellor said. there are proper proper— chancellor said. there are proper pmper to— chancellor said. there are proper proper to do preposterous accusations, and on the relationship with donald trump, he's obviously not my— a:r1glo—american alliance, and the! with donald trump, he's obviously not my flavour politics but he was § my 22:2z:55..e.e.:.::.e.......:.;.. ainglo—american alliance, and the § my flavour 2:77?

ainglo—american alliance, and the § my flavour politics but he elected _ not my flavour politics but he was elected president of the us, and i not my flavour politics but he was elected _ not my flavour politics but he was elected president of the us, and i think_ elected president of the us, and i think— elected president of the us, and i think that — think that — elected president of the us, and i think that even in donald trump's elected president of the us, and i think that even in donald trump's circles— think that even in donald trump's circles there must be an ounce of circles— think that even in donald trump's circles there must be an ounce of nervousness about this guy who nervousness about this guy who thinks _ nervousness about this guy who thinks that he can buy and sell any thinks _ nervousness about this guy who thinks that he can buy and sell any politician _ thinks that he can buy and sell any politician in — thinks that he can buy and sell any politician in the world, and i think politician _ thinks that he can buy and sell any politician in — thinks that he can buy and sell any politician in the world, and i think if number— politician in the world, and i think if number— politician in the world, and i think if number ten politician in the world, and i think if numberten and politician in the world, and i think if number ten and the new ambassador if number ten politician in the world, and i think if numberten and politician in the world, and i think if number ten and the new ambassador lord myners _ if number ten and the new ambassador lord myners _ if number ten and the new ambassador lord myners and play their cards lord myners and play their cards right, _ lord myners and play their cards right, there should be a right, _ lord myners and play their cards right, there should be a constructive way to say to even the constructive way to say to even the new administration, come on, guys, new administration, come on, guys, we have _ we have _ new administration, come on, guys, we have got— new administration, come on, guys, new administration, come on, guys, we have got— new administration, come on, guys, we have got to take on any tech and we have got to take on any tech and anglo—american alliance, and the - broke _ we have got to take on any tech and broke that _ broke _ we have got to take on any tech and broke that _ we have got to take on any tech and broke that thinks they are above we have got to take on any tech and broke that thinks they are above democracy and the rule of law and democracy and the rule of law and the elected premiers —— the new the elected premiers —— the new ambassador lord peter mandelson. but ambassador lord peter mandelson. but is there ambassador lord peter mandelson. emit is there ambassador lord peter mandelson. emit is there jeopardy there? if they is there jeopardy there? if they have a quiet word in the ear of the have a quiet word in the ear of the donald trump team about elon musk? i donald trump team about elon musk? i would be surprised if elon musk is would be surprised if elon musk is the man— the ntan— would be surprised if elon musk is the man who _ would be surprised if elon musk is the man who manages _ would be surprised if elon musk is would be surprised if elon musk is the man who _ would be surprised if elon musk is the man who manages _ would be surprised if elon musk is the man who manages to - would be surprised if elon musk is the man who manages to fracture | the man who manages to - would be surprised if elon musk is the man who manages to fracture | would be surprised if elon musk is- would be surprised if elon musk is- the man who manages to fracture the the man who manages to fracture the

anglo-american— the man who manages to fracture the anglo—american alliance, _ the man who manages to fracture the anglo—american alliance, and - the man who manages to fracture the anglo-american— the man who manages to fracture the anglo—american alliance, _ the man who manages to fracture the anglo—american alliance, and - the man who manages to fracture the anglo—american alliance, and the - anglo—american alliance, and the institutions— anglo—american alliance, and the institutions of— anglo—american alliance, and the institutions of state _ anglo—american alliance, and the institutions of state tend - anglo—american alliance, and the institutions of state tend to - anglo—american alliance, and the institutions of state tend to be . institutions of state tend to be quite — institutions of state tend to be quite good _ institutions of state tend to be quite good at _ institutions of state tend to be quite good at keeping - institutions of state tend to be quite good at keeping that- institutions of state tend to be quite good at keeping that in. institutions of state tend to be - quite good at keeping that in line, and i_ quite good at keeping that in line, and i suspect— quite good at keeping that in line, and i suspect personally, - quite good at keeping that in line, | and i suspect personally, although not based — and i suspect personally, although not based on — and i suspect personally, although not based on knowing _ and i suspect personally, although not based on knowing him - and i suspect personally, although - not based on knowing him personally, elon not based on knowing him personally, eton musk— not based on knowing him personally, eton musk was — not based on knowing him personally, elon musk was in _ not based on knowing him personally, elon musk was in trouble _ not based on knowing him personally, elon musk was in trouble last - not based on knowing him personally, elon musk was in trouble last week i elon musk was in trouble last week with the _ elon musk was in trouble last week with the republican _ elon musk was in trouble last week with the republican base _ elon musk was in trouble last week with the republican base because i elon musk was in trouble last weekl with the republican base because of his statement — with the republican base because of his statement on _ with the republican base because of his statement on visas, _ with the republican base because of his statement on visas, but - with the republican base because of his statement on visas, but now - with the republican base because of| his statement on visas, but now he's talking _ his statement on visas, but now he's talking about — his statement on visas, but now he's talking about immigration _ his statement on visas, but now he's talking about immigration in - his statement on visas, but now he's talking about immigration in a - talking about immigration in a different— talking about immigration in a different context _ talking about immigration in a different context in _ talking about immigration in a different context in a - talking about immigration in a different context in a different country. — different context in a different country, which _ different context in a different country, which is _ different context in a different country, which is why- different context in a different country, which is why he - different context in a different - country, which is why he probably weighed _ country, which is why he probably weighed in — country, which is why he probably weighed in ika— country, which is why he probably weighed in— weighed in. to correct the impression _ weighed in. to correct the impression amongst - weighed in. to correct the - impression amongst republicans? weighed in. to correct the _ impression amongst republicans? yes, he's shouting — impression amongst republicans? yes, he's shouting at — impression amongst republicans? yes, he's shouting at people instead, it is a more — he's shouting at people instead, it is a more comfortable _ he's shouting at people instead, it is a more comfortable position - he's shouting at people instead, it is a more comfortable position for| he's shouting at people instead, it. is a more comfortable position for a film is a more comfortable position for a right wing _ is a more comfortable position for a right wing demagogue _ is a more comfortable position for a right wing demagogue to _ is a more comfortable position for a right wing demagogue to be - is a more comfortable position for a right wing demagogue to be in. - is a more comfortable position for a . right wing demagogue to be in. these are regrettable — right wing demagogue to be in. these are regrettable things, _ right wing demagogue to be in. these are regrettable things, the _ right wing demagogue to be in. these are regrettable things, the first - are regrettable things, the first thing _ are regrettable things, the first thing is — are regrettable things, the first thing is keir— are regrettable things, the first thing is keir starmer— are regrettable things, the first thing is keir starmer saying - are regrettable things, the firsti thing is keir starmer saying that opposition— thing is keir starmer saying that opposition politicians _ thing is keir starmer saying that opposition politicians raising - thing is keir starmer saying that opposition politicians raising the issue _ opposition politicians raising the issue are — opposition politicians raising the issue are fuelling _ opposition politicians raising the issue are fuelling the _ opposition politicians raising the issue are fuelling the fire - opposition politicians raising the issue are fuelling the fire right l issue are fuelling the fire right because — issue are fuelling the fire right because i_ issue are fuelling the fire right because i don't— issue are fuelling the fire right because i don't think - issue are fuelling the fire right because i don't think that - issue are fuelling the fire right because i don't think that is i issue are fuelling the fire right . because i don't think that is fair, and it— because i don't think that is fair, and it looks _ because i don't think that is fair, and it looks like _ because i don't think that is fair, and it looks like the _ because i don't think that is fair, and it looks like the sort - because i don't think that is fair, and it looks like the sort of - and it looks like the sort of strategies _ and it looks like the sort of strategies that— and it looks like the sort of strategies that were - and it looks like the sort of strategies that were being i and it looks like the sort of - strategies that were being used by the counciis— strategies that were being used by the councils and _ strategies that were being used by the councils and other— strategies that were being used by the councils and other bodies - strategies that were being used by the councils and other bodies that| the councils and other bodies that failed, _ the councils and other bodies that failed, trying _ the councils and other bodies that failed, trying to— the councils and other bodies that failed, trying to shut _ the councils and other bodies that failed, trying to shut it— the councils and other bodies that failed, trying to shut it down, - the councils and other bodies that failed, trying to shut it down, andj failed, trying to shut it down, and the last— failed, trying to shut it down, and the last thing _ failed, trying to shut it down, and the last thing you _ failed, trying to shut it down, and the last thing you want _ failed, trying to shut it down, and the last thing you want to - failed, trying to shut it down, and the last thing you want to do - failed, trying to shut it down, and the last thing you want to do as l failed, trying to shut it down, and i the last thing you want to do as the

government— the last thing you want to do as the government is— the last thing you want to do as the government is suggest _ the last thing you want to do as the government is suggest that - the last thing you want to do as the | government is suggest that concern about— government is suggest that concern about this _ government is suggest that concern about this issue _ government is suggest that concern about this issue which _ government is suggest that concern about this issue which is _ government is suggest that concern about this issue which is clearly- government is suggest that concern about this issue which is clearly of. about this issue which is clearly of public— about this issue which is clearly of public concern... _ about this issue which is clearly of public concern... [it— about this issue which is clearly of public concern... [it is _ about this issue which is clearly of public concern. . ._ public concern... it is not the concern. _ public concern... it is not the concern, but _ public concern... it is not the concern, but the _ public concern... it is not the concern, but the lies, - public concern... it is not the l concern, but the lies, jumping public concern... it is not the - concern, but the lies, jumping on the bandwagon. concern, but the lies, “umping on the bandwagon.h concern, but the lies, “umping on the bandwagon. they were talking about calls for _ the bandwagon. they were talking about calls for an _ the bandwagon. they were talking about calls for an inquiry. - the bandwagon. they were talking about calls for an inquiry. but - the bandwagon. they were talking about calls for an inquiry. but the | about calls for an inquiry. but the other— about calls for an inquiry. but the other problem _ about calls for an inquiry. but the other problem is— about calls for an inquiry. but the other problem is talking - about calls for an inquiry. but the other problem is talking about. about calls for an inquiry. but the i other problem is talking about elon musk, _ other problem is talking about elon musk, and — other problem is talking about elon musk, and this _ other problem is talking about elon musk, and this is _ other problem is talking about elon musk, and this is a _ other problem is talking about elon musk, and this is a very— other problem is talking about elon musk, and this is a very serious - musk, and this is a very serious story— musk, and this is a very serious story about _ musk, and this is a very serious story about the _ musk, and this is a very serious story about the real— musk, and this is a very serious story about the real victims - musk, and this is a very serious l story about the real victims which you had _ story about the real victims which you had at— story about the real victims which you had at the _ story about the real victims which you had at the beginning, - story about the real victims which you had at the beginning, and - story about the real victims which. you had at the beginning, and here we are _ you had at the beginning, and here we are discussing _ you had at the beginning, and here we are discussing an— you had at the beginning, and here we are discussing an insane - you had at the beginning, and herei we are discussing an insane manner what _ we are discussing an insane manner what he _ we are discussing an insane manner what he says— we are discussing an insane manner what he says on— we are discussing an insane manner what he says on twitter _ we are discussing an insane manner what he says on twitter and - we are discussing an insane manner what he says on twitter and i- we are discussing an insane manner what he says on twitter and i thinkl what he says on twitter and i think that is— what he says on twitter and i think that is deeply— what he says on twitter and i think that is deeply unfortunate. - i spoke to the health minister stephen kinnock earlier about the government's announcement on how they plan to reduce waiting lists in england of 7.5 million. that bit of the interview later. first, i asked about musk, and whether those calling for a new national public inquiry

are all far right.

and it's frankly shameful that those recommendations have been there since 2022 and they've never been implemented. we've spoken to a victim today who says she was sexually exploited as a teenager in telford. she wants a national inquiry because she believes it will hold people accountable, in the way previous inquiries haven't. is she jumping on the far—right bandwagon? i think that the jay review was very clear that they will put institutions in place, child—protection authority... you're ignoring my question again. those institutions will, i believe, deliver on what that young person, that victim of abuse is calling for. i believe that the jay inquiry, we believe as a government, they will deliver on what is needed. is she jumping on the far—right bandwagon? if they don't, then of course, we need to be very vigilant and make sure that we're putting the measures in place that work. look, i... is she jumping on the far—right bandwagon? yes or no?

it's heartbreaking to see these awful, sickening cases of abuse. we've got to take rapid action to stop them, to have justice and accountability for people like the person. i'm not sure why you won't answer my question. i think that people who are victims of this abuse are well within their rights to call for all of the measures that need to be taken. so she's notjumping on a far—right bandwagon? it's ourjob as a government. i don't think that that's what the prime minister was saying. i think the prime minister was saying... well, i've got the quote here. "what i won't tolerate is politicians jumping "on the bandwagon when those politicians sat "in government for 1h long years, "tweeting and talking, but not doing anything "about it, now so desperate for attention, they're amplifying what the far right is saying." that was about politicians. i'm asking you about a victim. the politicians are being opportunistic when they have completely failed to take action on this issue, and are now calling for it all to go back to the drawing board, back to square one, to have another review. that feels to me like political point scoring.

so i think that's very, very different to the case that you've mentioned, because that young person was not in a position of responsibility, wasn't in government to take the decisions that should have been taken. so it's kemi badenoch who's jumping on the far—right bandwagon, then? that's what it looks like to me. the prime minister has ruled out a national public inquiry. the government, according to sky news, has launched 7a reviews in your first six months, including repeating reviews that have been done before on junk food advertising and on social care. is a grooming inquiry the only one you won't do? but we have a review. we have the jay report, and the jay report has got... you have a social care review. you're doing another one. it's got 20 very solid recommendations that need to be delivered. it's completely, uh, it's a false analogy to compare it with the social care review, because what we don't have on social care is a consensus around how to fix our adult social care. there isn't a consensus on how to support women and girls in the future when it comes to child sexual exploitation, as we've seen from the debate

in the last few days. well, i haven't heard anybody saying that we shouldn't implement the 20 recommendations of the jay review. what we've seen is a complete failure of the previous government to actually do anything about. so there's no merit in looking in detail about whether the ethnicity of the perpetrators, often men of pakistani heritage, led the authorities to back off investigating them for fear of being called racist? i think that the jay recommendations put in place institutions and systems and processes that will fix the entire system, and that is the most important. i think we need to see this in the round as a failing of our institutions. and those measures are about building the institutional capability to make sure that these appalling cases are never seen again. how worried is the prime minister aboutjess phillips' safety right now?

i'm sure that he's worried. i'm sure that he's concerned. i think we all are. i think we've seen how dangerous our politics can become when it is deeply polarised, and when i'm afraid certain people use language that whips up a violent sentiment and that can lead to very, very tragic consequences. so i think i think we are all worried about it, and we are worried about every day, we go into that chamber and we see the plaque on the wall tojo cox. i shared an office with her and it's something that we think about a lot. finally, the home secretary announced in the commons this evening a new victims and survivors panel on child sexual exploitation, and that grooming would be an aggravating factor when it comes to sentencing and other accelerated action. is that because of elon musk?

i think those are absolutely the right measures to be taking. i think the home secretary is building on the jay review as well. but she announced it tonight. i don't think it's right to say it's just because of elon musk. but in part because of what he's been raising? you know, i think what matters is that the outcomes that we put in place. but why has she announced it tonight? ..that we have accountability and justice in the system, and the reality is that this is a massively important political issue. it's a massively important issue in terms of our society and how it works in terms of our communities. but you're not saying it's just a coincidence that yvette cooper announced these things this evening? look... i think that what i think, the government wanted to send a very clear message, which is that this matter is being given our

urgent attention... but only because of elon musk�*s tweets. ..at pace to make it happen. and we can speculate about the whys and wherefores of what's happening. i don't want to speculate. i'm asking you. you're a minister in the government. i think that the government is taking rapid action, and the political salience of this issue is sharp. it's acute. why is it acute now? well, it has been the whole time. i mean, it's certainly sharp and acute for the victims. and, you know, we've got to do whatever it takes to eradicate this from our society and to make sure that we have a system in place that is fit for purpose. and that is what the home secretary set out today. elon musk has 20 —— has treated 27 times and less 2a hours. if you support these reforms, has he helped? you have seen yvette cooper announcement tonight. it helped? you have seen yvette cooper announcement tonight.— announcement tonight. if you say that we have _ announcement tonight. if you say that we have the _ announcement tonight. if you say that we have the jay _ announcement tonight. if you say that we have the jay review - announcement tonight. if you say that we have the jay review and i that we have the jay review and things that need to be done and we shouldn't have another long grass review because people will get very cynical if we just have review after review on every subject and i say

that someone who has sat on inquiries and i am a public lawyer. if you say, we don't need to review and we have recommendations, you want to get on and implement them. i saw brilliant interviewing and stephen kinnock going, was it elon musk? if you're responding to the very dangerous and powerful man spreading lies about the prime minister, about the victims minister, about the victims minister, you have to respond. and if you accelerate your implementation of the jay review, so be it, it is the right thing to do. henry hill. potentially, because the government you're right, the government you're right, the government does have to respond. i do think— government does have to respond. i do think it _ government does have to respond. i do think it is — government does have to respond. i do think it is unfortunate that again. — do think it is unfortunate that again, the main response from the government has been to say that we have already done everything. the public _ have already done everything. the public anger is a fact. but have already done everything. the public anger is a fact.— public anger is a fact. but they haven't said _ public anger is a fact. but they haven't said they _ public anger is a fact. but they haven't said they have - public anger is a fact. but they haven't said they have done i haven't said they have done everything. i'm not interrupting you. 50 everything. i'm not interrupting ou, , everything. i'm not interrupting ou. , , everything. i'm not interrupting ou. y , ., everything. i'm not interrupting ou. , , ., ., ., . everything. i'm not interrupting ou. , ., ., ., . ., you. so sorry. they have announced a new anel you. so sorry. they have announced a new panel and — you. so sorry. they have announced a new panel and accelerated _ you. so sorry. they have announced a new panel and accelerated some - new panel and accelerated some measures. you heard the minister in

that enjoyable sort of blood sport interview — that enjoyable sort of blood sport interview. we have had this and that and the _ interview. we have had this and that and the other and we need to get on and the other and we need to get on and do _ and the other and we need to get on and do this, — and the other and we need to get on and do this, and there are big gaps. i'm personally very sceptical politicians who call for reviews and general _ politicians who call for reviews and general inquiries because it is the thing _ general inquiries because it is the thing they— general inquiries because it is the thing they always do and we do reviews — thing they always do and we do reviews very badly in this country and they— reviews very badly in this country and they last forever and we will be here in— and they last forever and we will be here in eight years' time waiting. but there — here in eight years' time waiting. but there are other measures. nick time of— but there are other measures. nick time of the — but there are other measures. nick time of the proposed national inquiry— time of the proposed national inquiry specifically into allegations police and council officials — allegations police and council officials covered up these crimes —— nick timothy proposed. you could do that outside a formal inquiry process— that outside a formal inquiry process that would be a lot quicker. if process that would be a lot quicker. if the _ process that would be a lot quicker. if the government does not do that, if the government does not do that, iwouid _ if the government does not do that, iwouid be _ if the government does not do that, i would be at least interested to know _ i would be at least interested to know why — i would be at least interested to know why. it has certainly forced the government to take some action. you are _ the government to take some action. you are in— the government to take some action. you are in the chamber tonight when the home secretary was making her announcement. tell the home secretary was making her announcement.— 1417 00:19:47,932 --> 00:19