this is the largest economy in africa — a country rich in minerals and metals. huge strides have been made. a peaceful transition followed when the african national congress lost its majority for the first time this year. but the country is deeply unequal. crime is rampant. six out of ten young people are without a job. there is no doubting this country's potential, but the scars of division and poverty run deep, whilst crime and corruption are disabling the state. with me to debate questions from our cape town audience is our panel. khalid sayed is leader of the opposition in the provincial parliament here in western cape, a region of some 7.5 million people. he is also the regional spokesperson for the african national congress, or anc. his party holds the presidency

of south africa, and it's the leading partner in the current national government. solly malatsi is an mp for the anc�*s traditional rivals, the democratic alliance, now in the coalition government. he is ministerfor communications and digital technologies. naledi chirwa is a former student activist and mp, now a delegate of south africa's upper chamber, the national council of provinces. she's a member of the economic freedom fighters, one of the major parties that remain in opposition. ashley qhoeke sauls mp is a pastor, a comedian, and the parliamentary leader of the patriotic alliance, which is part of the government of national unity. the pa is a relatively new party and he was elected as an mp for the first time in this year's elections. your panel. applause let's go to ourfirst question.

good evening, everyone. good evening to the panellists. so, my question is to all the panellists. - since 1994, black people l did not get true liberation. how do you plan to deliver economic liberation- for black people? thank you. thank you very much, sir. thank you. of businesses on the johannesburg stock exchange, only 30% are black owned. unemployment amongst black africans is far, far higher than white south africans. naledi chirwa from economic freedom fighters. thank you so much for your question. i think we have to first give it historical context on what entails the oppression of black people in south africa. historically, that solely lies on colonisation. you cannot undo colonisation, but by first undoing the first tenet of colonisation,

which is the dispossession of land of our people. that is why, as the eff, we strongly advocate and call for the expropriation of all land, of all south africa's land without compensation for equitable redistribution. and second to that, we need to create jobs. there hasn't been adequate answering to the question of unemployment, of young people being unemployed in south africa, and as the eff, we kindly propose that, first and foremost, there must be industrialisation that's done in the country. there should be government intervention. so we start meeting our people at their point of need, that the land is given back to our people because we can't speak of undoing the chains of oppression without going back to the root. we can't address oppression without dealing with the land question. thank you very much indeed. cheering and applause thank you. ashley sauls. ashley sauls from the patriotic alliance. thank you very much, johnny. and i think... let me first introduce myself and pronounce the name that is so important to me,

given the fact that i recently discovered my roots, my second name, qhoeke. forgive me. i mispronounced that in the introduction. i did warn the audience here that i would mispronounce. that's fine, but there's a reason why, because i want to link it to my response. thank you. qhoeke is a bushman name, a san name, the original and first inhabitants of the southern part of this continent. when we say "black" politically and we talk about how to create economic opportunity for black people, for centuries even the term "black" has excluded the bushman. applause and... and i know you'll have my fellow colleagues in the different other parties say to me that while there's a definition in our political framework that says "blacks in general, "and african in particular", and what that really means is that the previously disadvantaged are black, but not everyone is african in particular. now, unfortunately, the sacrificial lambs are the so—called coloured

people, which is the majority in this... applause ..in this... and, johnny, you must note that the people are clapping because most often the realities that we experience in this country is not spoken of. so, coloured people... so coloured people, forgive me, just for those that don't know, is used in general to describe people of mixed race in south africa. that's correct. thank you. people of mixed race. and predominantly living in this particular province, the western cape. and so, when you talk about equal opportunity, that race is literally excluded, including...including

the first inhabitants. we're talking about ownership of land. for centuries, the discourse around ownership of land has been amongst those who doesn't own the land. it has been... it has been amongst those who has dispossessed the original inhabitants, which is the khoi and the san, the indigenous people here. and so, if we are going to shift the economic landscape in this country, the first thing that has to happen is coloureds — bushmen, khoi and san, has to be recognised as african in particular, has to receive first nation status here so that there's an understanding that when you want to talk about who owns the land, when you have a discourse around inequality, let us zoom in to the economic disadvantage for coloureds, and khoi and san. we are african in particular, notjust black in general. 0k.

thank you very much. solly malatsi, minister in the government and from the democratic alliance, the call has gone out for expropriation, for the seizure of land without compensation, as a way of delivering economic liberation for black people in this country. do you agree with that? well, i think before you even get to that, i think it is to recognise that the history of race relations in our country and the economic welfare of the country in general is a scar that reminds everyone about the division that this country has endured over a period of time. i think for south africa to resolve the issue of expropriation of land is guided by what our constitution says. right? we are a country that respects the law, and the constitution is clear. i think the key thing is, how do you use land to give

dignity to people and have the economic means to build their lives? there's got to be title deeds that is given to those individuals that have access to their land. without title deed, you don't have the security of tenure that you can use to pursue your opportunities, and that is what is holding back so many black south africans. thank you very much indeed. khalid sayed from the anc. i think the anc has created the environment and the mechanisms for economic liberation in this particular country. without a democratic dispensation, without an environment through which we can engage like this, um, and put our ideas on the table, we cannot even talk about economic liberation. one of our key aspects of our economic recovery plan has been to ensure that we safeguard the mixed economy. we appreciate the fact that the private sector has a role to play. but at the same time, the state has a fundamental role to play to drive economic growth, to ensure that the private sector does the right thing, that workers work under the best conditions possible. we need to see an improvement in living conditions because you cannot say you are

liberating south africa, you are liberating south africans economically, but they do not have dignified living spaces. i mean, one in ten south africans still live in what's called "informal housing", for which you can really read "living in shacks". no, most certainly — we are not saying that there has not been challenges, but compared to an environment, a legacy of apartheid, where there was absolutely nothing, at least we've got to admit that the anc has taken us somewhere. our policies speak about expropriation of land without compensation, but within the constitutional framework, we must not use language around land reform which is also going to turn away investors. 0k. we will leave that one there. thank you very much indeed. i want to go briefly, if i could, back to our questioner.

thank you very much. i think i'm happy with the - response from naledi chirwa, but the other panellists, they are just diverting . from the actual crux of the matter. - and i mean, without land, everything else we can't. achieve. thank you very much, sir, and thank you for your question as well. i'm going to move on. our second question comes from clint white. clint. gangsterism is a huge. problem stifling growth in our communities, l particularly our youth. what real plan of action i does the government have to eradicate this? thank you very much. i mean, you can pick from any number of statistics. there have been 70 murders a day, on average, in the first half of this year. companies large and small report economic blackmail from gangs, 1.6 million counts of serious crime in 2023. solly malatsi, minister for communications and digital technology. yeah. look, i think gangsterism

is one of, you know, those ills that really have crippled south africa and the progress that we could be making, destroying the lives of young people. and i think it's because of two things. one is the sense of desperation that exists amongst some communities in order to provide for themselves, and a failure, to be honest, of law enforcement. our law enforcement do not have, you know, the resources — one, to do the detection... i think the people who end up being on the street as runners of drug sales, or even the shooters on the ground, those are just the little guys, you know? the big guys are the ones that are unseen underground. so, i think the key thing is about, one, the early detection system, from an intelligence perspective, in identifying who are the real masters behind the runners on the ground. and secondly, we need an overhaul of our criminal justice system. the rate of the convictions from such crimes is very, very low, and it's largely driven by the fact that

the detectives who have to do the investigations are overburdened. on average, one detective faces over 80 dockets. that's why we have this little conviction rate that we have. thank you very much indeed. ashley sauls, i think you have some understanding of this. your party leader is described as a reformed gangster. he spent time in prison. does he... does your party have specific ideas for dealing with gangsterism ? our party president indeed comes from a life of gangsterism. i grew up in a community faced with the same...the same ills. and...what is important to note is that what we, or who we call gangsters in this country, remember, those are people. those are people that before they became gangsters, looked for better lives. but the make—up of the system makes it difficult for especially coloured people to get economic opportunity. that's the reality. scattered applause my president, gayton mckenzie, who is my mentor, indeed was in prison for gangsterism. but even to date in this country, look at all the media platforms. he is still called a gangster. yet that is 30 years ago.

so are you suggesting that because there is no forgiveness, then there can be no solutions? yes. and that there is no... the general public does not believe that someone like our president can change, no matter what he has proven. thank you very much. khalid sayed from the anc.

look, i think it's a multi—pronged approach. so number one, and i do agree with the minister, and i hope that the minister is taking up these issues inside of cabinet, that we do need to strengthen our law enforcement capacity, and i think that has started — if you look at some of the high—profile arrests of gang leaders, especially here in cape town, and the trials that are currently under way. also, government needs to work together within the context of the gnu — i think you spoke about the gnu context. it's very important. thank you very much indeed. naledi chirwa from the economic freedom fighters. yes. thank you so much, johnny. i think, first and foremost, we need to start restoring the human face of the people that we're talking about. at some point, they were six—year—olds, like all of us, who wanted to be doctors, to be president, to be all these things that they wanted to be when they grew up, but opportunity lost them along the way. we've got police who get paid by crime. crime pays in south africa. it pays the police really well. and the first start to be able

to address this is to also make sure that there is growth that happens when you become a policeman. we find policemen that have been in the industry for 30 to 40 years, but have been in the same rank for decades on end. there's no incentive that gratifies you for having stood up for the country, and that makes you depart and detach yourself from protecting your country, to pledging allegiance to politicians, to criminals, and no longer south africans. thank you very much indeed. i'm going to... i'm going to move on, if i may. on to a related question. good evening. my name is benjamin zondo. and firstly, ijust i want to thank you. i see young faces here. this is a wonderful thing in the new south africa. | applause and my question is, would the panel support - the death penalty, since we are already suffering j to this extreme crime - that we are failing to solve?

thank you very much. i'm going to ask you all to keep your answers relatively short, if you can. the death penalty was abolished here injune 1995. i'm going to start, if i may, with ashley sauls from the patriotic alliance. yes. thank you very much indeed! khalid sayed? we would most definitely not support it because... applause ..we believe in reform. _ we believe in reforming people. er, we also understand that it would be unfair if there's a slightest mistake... 0k. ..in court and someone goes to the gallows for a crime that they may have not committed. it's unfair. naledi chirwa? the first right that's protected by our constitution is the right to life. and we always have to defend that right. and we do know that people are rehabilitatable. we've seen this happen. it'sjust our systems are currently failing and they are unable to address social ills from ground up. so what happens is that a system now develops and creates criminals and then punishes them by killing them. it doesn't make sense. you must address what makes people criminals and deal with it ground up, instead of taking away life, because then you're becoming a government that's a crime itself... the argument... ..that takes life. the argument is made.

may i? the argument is made... the argument is made by some that death penalty is a deterrent. what it will do, it will embolden criminals because then they won't leave evidence behind. if they rob you, they kill you. if they rape you, they kill you because you can't speak against them. that is what it will do. and we know our systems. they are very futile and fragile. now you go to court, the victim is no longer there, they are dead. they can't... 0k... they can't find the perpetrators when we are still alive... naledi. ..what more when we are dead? naledi. thank you. naledi chirwa, thank you very much. solly malatsi from the democratic alliance, would you support the death penalty? absolutely not. i think as constitutionalists and having watched south africa's journey and what happened prior to democracy, the death penalty does not deter crime from happening. i think our efforts should go into boosting crime—fighting activities and making sure activities and making sure that we get the convictions that we get the convictions for the crimes that have been committed. for the crimes that have been committed. thank you very much. thank you very much. ashley, ashley sauls, ashley, ashley sauls, you were admirably brief. you were admirably brief. a quick response to what a quick response to what

you've just heard here. yes. my party manifesto is that the death penalty must you've just heard here. come back, and the same audience that is clapping now is the same audience that is complaining of innocent lives that are being taken, and nothing is done to those that takes innocent lives. take it from someone that comes from prison, he understands that criminals fear death. if you kill anybody, you must be killed, i maintain. thank you very much. i want to hearfrom our audience, if i can, on this question. would you support the death penalty when crime is high? madam, i think you wanted to make a point. firstly, i do want to applaud naledi chirwa over there. i i stand firmly with her point. but i quite frankly find it. ironic that someone whose president is a reformed, um... ..prison...jailbird — sorry — i but someone who's reformed and is from prison, - is a person who stands firmly with the death penalty. because if your president is the living proof that i

someone from prison can be rehabilitated, | what prevents your political| party from standing with it? thank you. thank you very much, madam. i'm going to come back to our questioner, mr zondo. thank you very much. i'm so much interested to hear more. - but we are struggling, . as a country, with crime. if we look at the solutions - that you have as the government to fight this crime, . they are not working. put fear to these criminals i that if you kill, you are gone. crime will go down. go to countries like china, where if they catch - you with drugs, you are gone. we just want to softenl this democracy and say we are a democratic country, we are... i you know, it's not working. people are dying. thank you. thank you very much. any other thoughts? hi, good evening, everyone. it was really interesting listening to the different perspectives on the death penalty, but i think the elephant in the room

is also ourjustice system. very strict policies, but if we do not have a capable and competentjustice system that isn't understaffed, isn't under—trained and is actually competent to do the job, we wouldn't even need such strict measures in order to actually implement what's in our constitution. so, that's all i want to say. we are almost at the end. i will have time for one more question, and it comes from hlengiwe mkebe. good evening. my name is hlengiwe mkebe. i'm from the pondoland, - formerly known as transkei. my question is, what is. stopping our government, south africa, from creating an ibiza as a portion... - ..um, using a portion of robben island? . thank you very much indeed. the question, what is stopping south africa from creating an ibiza, that is a sort of holiday island off the coast of spain currently, on a portion of robben island? robben island, perhaps most famous for having a prison on it for many political prisoners. um... were should we...? where should we start now? naledi chirwa, would you like to see an ibiza on the island of robben island?

i think the government has already explored that. there's already touring facilities. what i want to take us, in regards to this question on tourism in particular, because that's also an industry that is still dominated by white people and they've got inter... they've got municipal contracts that go on for 100 years. but there are young creatives, young people in the townships who've got businesses, restaurants who want to go out into industries that are owned by government that are unable to do so. naledi, thank you very much indeed. ashley sauls, what would you make of robben island being further exploited? hell to the no. i'll tell you why. nelson mandela was not the only

one — and we love our father of the nation — that was incarcerated on robben island. the first man to be incarcerated was harry de strandloper autshumao. and he was incarcerated there, and the first one to swim from there back to shore — a bushman. so what i'm saying is when you do that, you are meddling with my core heritage. so hell to the no. thank you very much indeed. solly malatsi from the democratic alliance. yeah, look, i think it wouldn't be right to relegate a national heritage site like robben island to be like an entertainment hub or, you know, a resort. i think the true measure of how do you best position robben island to be able to leverage the tourist potential that it has, because over a period of years there was a period of neglect of robben island. at one stage, the ferry wasn't even working to take the tourists there. so i think it's about maintaining its... ..its...its presence, and making sure that even the affordability... ..element of it so that every south african has a fair chance, whether you're from khayelitsha or you are a tourist, to be able to afford the ferry and go to robben island and experience the journey of south africa's transition from a very painful and dark past into our democracy. and for that, it must be protected to remain as that symbol of south africa's

transition to democracy, because we need that daily reminder. thank you. thank you very much. the last word on the last question goes to khalid sayed from the anc. thank you very much. i want to agree with all the speakers on the panel. this is a cultural heritage site, but beyond that, we need to ensure that robben island is given the sanctity that it deserves. turning it into an ibiza or a party—going place isjust... it should not even be on the table. you had a question on education previously. i think that visits to robben island ought to be part and parcel of what is required at schools. young people need to be taken on reconciliation day. two years ago, i attended an event, and it speaks also to the points raised by our respected leader

of the patriotic alliance, where we had leaders of the nguni tribes, but also the khoisan leadership. we could start to use the space also, not only to visit prisons but to have tough conversations around identity and around where we need to go. we should use it as a sacred space, also to hold... i would like to see bbc hopefully one day having a similar panel discussion on robben island. we would be very, very happy to do that. thank you. that's it for world questions south africa in cape town. a big thank you to our panel — solly malatsi, naledi chirwa, khalid sayed, and ashley sauls. thanks also to our wonderful questioners here in cape town and all the contributors to our debate here in district six. thank you. cheering and applause. thank you very much.

hello. we've seen some fairly disruptive weather to get the brand—new year under way. and over the last few days, whether that has been from extensive snowfall or indeed from widespread flooding, it's been the same weather system responsible. now, the good news is that weather system is now moving only slowly, but off in towards northern europe — have big impacts on tuesday in denmark, norway and sweden. but as it's only moving slowly, we'll remain on the western side of it and it's on the western side where we continue to bring the winds down from the north.

so for the rest of the working week it does stay cold. sharp overnight frost risk of ice, and we could see some of the lowest temperatures so far this winter by night later in the week, an ongoing risk of some snow, too. now for the morning on tuesday morning it's ice, which will be the widespread risk for some wintry showers overnight, particularly the north and west. and temperatures not quite as low as they were on monday morning for some — that's because more of a breeze. that breeze bringing frequent snow showers in northern scotland to begin with. some of those pushing into central southern scotland for a time during the middle part of the day. rain, sleet and snow showers in northern ireland, north west england, north—west midlands and wales. early showers across some southern counties of england. it should depart and really, for many of you, a much brighter day on tuesday. a lot more sunshine around, but still cold — two to around six celsius, added wind chill to boot. now it still remains blustery in the north of scotland going into tuesday night — further snow flurries here. one or two elsewhere but some clearer skies, lighter winds developing through the night. so more widely a sharp frost to take us into wednesday morning.

certainly a colder morning and wednesday morning in southern parts, so that will have an impact later in the day. some dense patches of freezing fog north midlands, north west england and ireland to begin with. still some snow flurries in the north of scotland, but actually, for many, a dry and bright day, that's providing you're not stuck with the lingering fog, but a shield of cloud coming over later on across southern parts of england and wales. temperatures here around two to five degrees, some in the north not getting above freezing. but with the cold air in place and by the end of the day, this weather system just scraping into southern counties of england, bumping into that cold air, there is still the potential that we could see a covering of snow late wednesday and into wednesday night across some of these southern counties. one to watch that dividing line could change, but certainly south of the m4 for now. maybe it could be further away in france. either way, it pulls away and then into thursday back to more widespread northerly winds. bring in some showers around scotland down some of these western fringes. many, though, will have a dry, sunny and pretty cold day again, with temperatures struggling to get above freezing in some areas and potentially one of the coldest nights yet to come on thursday night.

live from singapore, this is bbc news. canadian prime ministerjustin trudeau announces plans to step down, and temporarily suspends parliament until march. in washington, congress certifies donald trump's victory in november's presidential election. four presidential election. years to the day since his supporters four years to the day since his supporters storm to the capital. and leaks corrupted the public service exam process again.