voice-over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after this programme. hello, i'm katie razzall. and i'm ros atkins. on this week's edition of the media show, we're going to talk about meta's decision to cancel its fact—checking operation, which it has been using on instagram and on facebook. what can the so—called legacy media learn from news influencers? we speak to one influencer who's been reporting on the ukraine war on tiktok. and we're going to look ahead to the release of grand theft auto vi, which could be the biggest media event of the year. it's all on the media show. now, meta has decided to stop using its independent fact—checking programme on its platforms, facebook and instagram.

it's going to replace that with community notes — a system where users assess posts and, if they deem it necessary, add clarifications or context. it's a system already used on elon musk�*s x platform. and the meta boss mark zuckerberg announced the change in a video he posted on instagram. now, to assess this decision, it is, of course, relevant

to remember that donald trump is about to become president but there's other relevant context, too. meta's independent fact—checking programme started in 2016. it was a response to criticism about how misinformation was able to spread during that year's us election — an election that donald trump won. then, there's january 6th 2021 and the assault on the us capitol. in the days that followed, meta posted a statement online. it read: and then, there's the pandemic. last year, mark zuckerberg — chief executive of meta, of course — said he regretted agreeing to requests from the biden administration to remove some content on facebook and instagram that was relating to covid and now we have, as katie was saying, meta introducing community notes.

this system, which was introduced by elon musk after he bought twitter, involves people of different viewpoints agreeing on notes which add context or clarifications to posts which are deemed to require it so, to put it simply, this is quite a change of tack by meta. well, angie drobnic holan is the director of the international fact—checking network. it represents more than 100 fact—checking organisations worldwide, including us fact—checking organisations that meta is ending its partnership with. hello, angie. thank you so much for coming on the media show. just tell us first, what do these fact—checking organisations do for facebook? how does the fact—checking process actually work? thank you for having me. the way the programme works is that fact—checkers have access to meta cues that include suspicious information. so, these are posts that users or algorithms have flagged as being potentially

false or misleading — and, in the large part, we're talking about conspiracy theories and hoax content. the fact—checkers select the posts that they think are most likely to get people's attention or go viral, fact—check them, and then feed their findings back to meta. then meta makes decisions about downranking posts or putting filters over them. a typical user experience would be you would see a grey screen that says, "independent fact—checkers have questioned "this information. "are you sure you want to see it anyway?" and this programme has been going on for many years. we believe it's improved the day—to—day experiences of most users on facebook byjust making the false content not so high up in theirfeeds. so, these — and the claims that fact—checkers are biased — we strongly reject that. we have criteria for fact—checkers around accuracy, transparency and independence.

this is interesting because meta's chief global affairs officerjoel kaplan said experts, like everyone else, have their own biases and perspectives. this showed up in the choices some made about what to fact—check and how. do you not agree that bias can creep into the choices about what to fact—check, for example? i think the fact—checkers worked as hard as possible to concentrate on fact—checking false information. we never heard complaints from meta before about widespread bias in the programme. meta often said very complimentary things about the programme. so, when you saw mark zuckerberg saying they're too politically biased, there have been too many mistakes and too much censorship, what did you think? i thought it sounded like the talking points of the new administration and its supporters because they've been saying it for many, many years and the timing of this announcement did not seem like any coincidence.

and this is also the kind of thing that elon musk has been saying as he bought twitter and dismantled all of its content moderation. so, it seems highly political and coming at a highly political moment. and so, therefore, just talk me through your thought — what your thoughts are on being replaced by this community notes model. what will it mean, do you think? well, we've seen the community notes model on twitter and i don't think it's a very effective way of reducing hoax content and conspiracy theories. in some ways, it relies on consensus among people of wildly differing political views. and while we admire free speech and freedom of expression — as fact—checkers, we consider freedom of expression as critical to our work — there are a lot of things that come to evidence and fact—checking that you can't — you can't say, "oh, political consensus "will reveal what is accurate or not."

you need to rely on evidence. so the community notes, i think it could possibly be successful with platforms that were truly committed to improving information integrity for their users if it was implemented correctly but, right now, thisjust seems like window dressing for social media companies that want to be able to say they're doing something without actually doing it. 0k, what do you think it will mean, then, in the uk and the eu? because third party fact—checkers actually remain in place for now when it comes to facebook. well, i think we're in a very critical moment. meta has said they intend to implement this programme in the us and study it and then, they'll make decisions about other countries and consider the regulatory environments of other countries. so, we will see what the future holds. now, the fact—checkers in europe are organised

through the european fact—checking standards network and they have told me that they support the eu regulations and think they have a lot of potential to improve people's online experiences, but the key is going to be in the enforcement of these regulations and, you know, i think there needs to be more reporting on exactly how the eu and the uk intend to proceed here because it is a very critical moment. angie drobnic holan from politifact, thank you so much for your insights here on the media show. piers morgan is one of the world's most prominent journalists and this week, he announced he was taking full control of his uncensored youtube channel — something he's been running up to now with rupert murdoch's news division. and we can see this as part of a broader trend where high—profilejournalists are going it on their own in the digital world. we've been talking to julia angwin about this. she's a tech commentator, award—winning journalist,

and she's written an article exploring the issue of trust and the news and, in particular, looking at what news organisations can learn from online content creators. i mean, i started this inquiry — i'm a legacyjournalist, right? i grew up in the wall street journal, i worked at propublica, i've come from that tradition. but i also am a reporter who covers technology and i have seen the growth of youtube and tiktok. you can't ignore the fact that the audience has fully gone to those platforms, right? and they're spending their hours there, they're watching news there and i wanted to understand, well, what is the difference? i mean, you could just say, "oh, people are stupid "and making dumb choices" but i don't believe that. i think you have to learn from what the audience is looking for, and as i — so, what i did is i sort of used a certain framework around what is — what makes

things trustworthy and, really, what — humans trust each other when they feel like the person that they're talking to has their interests at heart, which is called benevolence, has some demonstrated competence, some abilities, so they're perhaps an expert on the thing they're talking about and they have integrity, meaning that if they do something wrong or they tell you a lie, they will be fact—checked, somebody will call them out on it — and those are the elements of trust. and when i looked at social media — youtube, tiktok, particularly — versus legacy media, what i saw was that the creator community that creates content on these social media platforms just works a lot harder to prove trustworthiness on those three metrics, right? they interact with their communities, they call each other out — they do these videos called duets where they might react or respond to each other's content, they interact in their comments, they — they are telling you what level of expertise they have — like, "i'm a make—up creator and i know "a lot about eyeshadow and i'm going to tell

you all about the eyeshadow," etc. so, they work harder to build trust with their audiences and, to me, that's something that legacy media could learn from. julia, stay with us. we've got two people here. neither of them are make—up creators, but one of them is... at least we think they aren't! we don't think so, anyway! one of them is a tiktok news influencer, joey contino, who's based in newjersey and runs an account focused on politics and the russia—ukraine war and then, we've also — delighted to say — we've got alessandra galloni, news agency thomson reuters' editor—in—chief. welcome to you both on the media show. and joey, if we just start with you. explain, then, what you do. i noticed you've recently posted tiktok videos about russian troop losses in ukraine and also donald trump's press conference in mar—a—lago. so, when it comes to what i do on my channel, i cover the world news and i cover it, essentially, as it comes out. my primary focus is what's going on in ukraine. i dive deep into russian telegram, ukrainian telegram

and decipher it because there's a lot of, at least, new news that doesn't really come out because we're now at a time in technology where when something happens, we can now get verification extremely quickly. and expanding on that, i'm now obviously going into other countries and reporting what's going on there. as we're finding out, there's a lot of connections to elections in russia. and what, then? just sell — you've already sold yourself but for people who don't know, how successful are you? how big is your following? and what do you think is behind your success? so, at this very - moment, we're sitting at over 500,000 followers. we get anywhere between 40—60 million views every single - month. and ultimately, what makes us different on tiktok, _ say, the legacy, is that. we're extremely personal. when we open up our phones and start telling the news, i we're not talking to millions. i'm talking to my best friend, almost like it's gossip, - in a way, and the audience i connects to that on another level because we start off - with their day, we become part of their routine, to _ the place to where now we're like their best friend - calling them, telling them, "hey, did you hear- what happened today?"

and over the years, to kind of point out what julia - was saying, we've built their. trust up to where they now only come to us and they actually even feed us information, i believe it or not. i get people from around| the world who say, "hey, "look, you know what happened in the gulf of finland? - "i was on that ferry — here's a photo." - and so, we've built up that trust. - and it's something that legacy, it's kind of hard for them - to compare to because we're hitting people in different. levels. we got them in their. most vulnerable areas. they're in bed at. night, watching us. you know, they're in. the bathroom, they're in the shower, . they're on a bus. and so, we have that massivel connection with audiences that other people don't seem to get. you're talking about trust being a key issue for you when it comes to your relationship with your users and viewers. are you also ensuring — of course you are — that they not just trust you but that they believe that you have authority in this area — that you have a great deal of knowledge when it comes to what you're posting?

yeah, so, when it comes down to especially what's _ going on in ukraine and russia, i'm a big believer in _ a three—verification process in order to really get thingsj put out there. there's been many stories, like right now, going - on in the kursk region, that i could report- about but because i can't| verify it i would never put that out there. and because my audience has been growing with me - and they see how i fact—check things — i even fact—check- myself if i get something wrong, i'll make a videol about it. and if not, and if i doi say something wrong, we do have other creators that will come forward like, - "hey, i think you i meant to say this" and then, i'll put another video out, saying, "hey,| "look, i apologise. "i meant to say this, i and this is what it is." and from that, my audience then understands that, - that like, "he's got - the best interest in mind. "he's not just spewing l information to get views "and clicks". joey, stay with us. we appreciate you coming on the media show. alessandra galloni from reuters — from thomson reuters, thank you very much for coming back on the programme. we always enjoy you coming on. i wonder where you start with the issue of trust. when you have a big brand like reuters, which is widely known, widely trusted, is there a risk there that brings some complacency

because you think, "i've "got a head start here"? yeah, thank you, it's great to be back. so, first of all, before i answer your question, there'sjust a couple of things that i think i'd like to highlight in the conversation that's just come... sure. ..which the other — which the other guests sort of highlighted. one is that consensus does not necessarily mean truth, and i think that's an important point. and the second one is that our experience with fact—checkers, you know, many legacy news organisations have increased their fact—checking teams — i mean, you know, the bbc has as well — and our experience has been very positive, that it has been enhancing of trust and of our ability to put truth out into the world. so, just to sort of follow... well, as you bring it up, then, what do you make of mark zuckerberg's comments that the fact—checkers had the opposite effect? well, that's what i'm saying. our experience has been that we have a very strong fact—checking operation and it's a very important part of our newsroom, just like it is, i know, foryours, so that's what i would say.

would it make you less likely to post reuters content on meta platforms like instagram and facebook that they now won't be using fact—checkers? i mean, honestly, iwant to talk about trust. you're leading me down another path here, ros, because you're a great journalist but i want to talk about trust at reuters, which is what you asked me. and i don't think we're complacent and i think that, you know, we have been in the trust business for 173 years and it's not an easy one. and you know, for us, a lot of our — the bulk of our business is a business—to—business approach, which is that we provide news to all of the news organisations in the world, like the bbc, and we provide news to a financial terminal which is currently owned by london stock exchange group. so, your business relationships rely on the fact that your services are trustworthy. but i wonder what you were

thinking as you were listening to howjoey approaches his reporting, which is a very spontaneous, fluid, flexible approach which responds to what he's hearing from his audience. do you think a big organisation like reuters could adopt some of that? yeah. so my question to joey would be where do you get your news from? so, if you're reporting on ukraine and russia, you know, i can say, "we get our news because we have very "big bureaus in both ukraine and in russia. "and so, we get our news, which we then put out "into the world, to billions of people in the world, "based on ourjournalists on the ground who, every day, "see, touch, feel, talk to people on the ground "and who have been doing this for years." so, i guess, to answer that question, i would say, i'd be curious to know where you get the facts. i would be glad to. answer that for you. so, for those who don't know, i've been to ukraine several. times and there's multiple - different layers where i get my information from — -

a lot of it actually first—hand from soldiers on the ground. you know, if this was five, j six years ago, i would say, when press releases got sent out, they only got sent out. to legacy media. now that we're in this. new world, we get that stuff sent too. whenever the president puts i something out, whenever press releases come out, i i'm on those emails. i also get my news from - telegram channels because i do deep dives into what both sides |are saying, and since i've been| covering this for over 2.5 - years, i'm able to speak about, "hey, this is what's being said. - "this is what most . likely is happening." and then from there, later on, i there are reports that come out and verify these stories. julia angwin, let's bring you back in here. i wonder whether there's a simple fact that we're actually slightly missing here — which is, often, when it comes to news influencers, the content is just more fun. the mainstream media often aspires to, for example, impartiality, to objectivity. this can be a bit dry. and we're looking at a world where news entertainment is what people want.

i mean, ithink you're — i think that's an element of it but i also think that it's important to think about the fact that humans are designed to trust other humans. and so, seeing someone's face as they talk to you actually makes a huge difference. that's how we were sort of designed to understand each other. and so, that's why tv, obviously, has worked, and radio — right, you guys? but for the printed word, for — especially as it has been written, in these neutral, objective terms, you're right, it doesn't have that emotional resonance and so, there is an advantage to news influencers — it sounds like joey does his own research — but plenty of them do take alessandra's hard work and just riff off of it, right? and so, there is an element in this world where they really do rely on mainstream journalism and then sort of read it, you know?

and that, i think, is an imbalance in this news economy that needs to be fixed because we can't have it that all the value goes to the people who just read the news. we need that original on—the—ground reporting. but i think we also need to rethink objectivity. and i basically think that what is most important is not the way we have framed objectivity, which is like neutrality and sort of a purity of heart, you know? there's that whole thing about, like, "i didn't have any "personal views on this, i'm just watching what's happened". and that's not true — everyone has personal views. well, julia, ifeel like the nature of impartiality, neutrality and so on is probably for another large and lengthy and interesting segment on the media show because that's a big one that you're opening up. but alessandra, just finally, news influencers are primarily giving their content directly to the audience. as you've just described, reuters' business is largely giving content to other businesses. i wonder if there are particular things that businesses want from you to demonstrate the trustworthiness of your work?

yeah, well, first of all, - we are giving our news to other news organisations, you know, i such as the bbc and other news organisations around the world, on the one hand, we are also. giving news to, as i. said before, financial professionals. but we have a growing consumer business, i so we are also providing news now directly to individuals - and so to a direct audience. we feel, you know, - because of where we sit in the ecosystem, we have i always been about providing news, information, . facts from the ground. and we're a very global news i organisation because we are in 200 locations around the world, but we're also a very local - news organisation in i that we have journalists who are working in their own countries reporting — - they have been reporting i for many years on their own governments, on culture, on... so that, to us, is a key ingredient to, we feel, j

to trust. now, let's look ahead to what could be one of the big media and entertainment moments of the year. it's what some critics are saying is the most—anticipated video game of all time. have a listen. well, look who's back! the only way we're going to get through this is by sticking - together. being a team. laughs. tyres screech. well, that is a bit of the trailer for grand theft auto vi, which dropped in december 2023 — and it is all video game fans have seen of it so far. it has had 232 million views on youtube. and vic hood, who's a freelance gaming journalist, is with us. vic, hello. hello. is it happening this year? the numbers around this game and this franchise are absolutely crazy. it could generate more than $3 billion in sales in the first 12 months, people are saying. but are we going to see — i mean, i see the ceo of the parent company that makes it has given an interview

with some clues perhaps. yeah, they've so far confirmed in that trailer that it is looking like — well, they've said fall 2025. but the benefit that they have and that the ceo was able to sort of touch on is they're in no rush. if — they want the game to be perfect, they have no competition — the figures speak for themselves on that. the last game they released hit one billion sales in three days and by comparison, that is the fastest—selling entertainment media — that's film, tv — of all time. avengers: endgame reached one billion in five days. so, they really are taking their time to get it right and that's part of why they're able to be as successful as they actually are. and i guess there might be people listening to this who don't know about grand theft auto. just describe to us — tell us about the franchise and also why the next one�*s so hotly anticipated. yeah, so the franchise is an action—adventure game series which typically focuses on a protagonist who's sort of down and out, working their way through sort of the criminal underworld

through illicit activities. but it's sort of the adult, violent nature of the game that makes it quite controversial, but it is the second best—selling game franchise of all time. but people have been waiting over ten years since the last one, so the hype has sort of been building. what's the top franchise? top franchise is minecraft from microsoft. there you go. 0k, there you go. and how do you see this next one? what technological features might set it apart? what do we know? so, from the trailer — which is all that we've seen of it so far — we know that a lot of that is sort of gameplay — it's not entirely — but it looks fantastic. it looks on par with the sort of games we're expecting to see now but we also know that we're going to have updated ai, which means that the characters you're not playing in the game will be more realistic, they'll move more naturally through the world. and are we getting the first female protagonist?

we are, yeah. until now, it's all been male protagonists, so this is the first one. we're looking at a sort of bonnie and clyde duo but it is the first female playable character the series has seen. and when they release a game like this, is it available on all the main consoles, all the main platforms? so, this one's available — it's going to be available on ps5 and xbox series x. they've said so far that a pc — it may not be available at launch, that'll probably be a bit later, and we don't know if it'll release on the ps5 pro, which is the newest console yet. we've only a few seconds but i'm curious — do you get previews of this in the same way that film reviewers might get previews of films? yeah, are you going to see it? rock star is historically a bit tight—lipped. with the other games, i think it kind of happens but it's always a very select few. all right. so, it looks like grand theft auto vi will be out in the autumn but sounds like there might be a bit of wiggle room on the date. we'll have to see. don't put it in your calendar. no, don't put it in your calendar quite yet, exactly. that's it for now. thank you so much for watching. goodbye. bye— bye. and if you'd like to hear

a longer version of today's show, search "bbc the media show" wherever you get your bbc podcasts. hello there. well, temperatures struggling to get much past freezing by day and once again, it is the coldest night of the winter so far. now, lots of lying snow, particularly for the northern half of the uk and there could be some issues with snow melt over the next few days or so as the air turns gradually milder from the north and the west. lots of flood warnings still in place. not too much rain falling out of the sky. it is going to be mostly dry but other issues will include icy stretches and freezing fog. but this is the temperature anomaly map as we head through the next few days, so you can see marked in blue here on the map — this is where it's colder than average at the moment. then, it turns milder, warmer across northern ireland scotland into sunday. eventually, the milder air will push further southwards and eastwards for the start of next week, but it's a slow process. and as we head through saturday, this cloud gradually pushes further eastwards, freezing fog patches across many parts

of england and wales slow to lift and clear, reducing visibility on our roads. bit of patchy light rain and drizzle into parts of western scotland with the wind picking up for some irish sea coasts, but some sunshine later on in the day for northern ireland. sunny skies, too, with the colder air further east but again, temperatures for many won't make it much past low single figures. and it stays cold, too, on saturday night into sunday. perhaps not quite as cold as on friday night but temperatures still well below freezing for many, particularly towards the eastern half of the uk. for these western coasts, it is turning milder. and if we just take a look at the pressure chart, you can see the high pressure gradually retreats further eastwards, taking the colder air with it, just allowing these weather fronts to introduce milder conditions across northern ireland and again for scotland this time on sunday, where temperatures will start to pick up. watch out for that snow melt, though, of course. so, the winds pick up towards these irish sea coasts. there will be some outbreaks of rain pushing across the western isles into western scotland. further south, this is where we'll see the best of the sunshine and temperatures here won't make it much past four

or five celsius, but ten in western scotland, in northern ireland and towards south west england, too. and that milder air will eventually win out, pushing further southwards and eastwards as we head through monday and tuesday. so, if we take a look at our outlook for our capital cities, then you can see that by the time we get to tuesday, we're back up into double figures across the board. mostly dry in the south. some rain, though, at times further north. bye— bye.

live from washington, this is bbc news. deadly wildfires continue to rage across los angeles — 11 people have been killed — and more than 150,000 residents have been ordered to evacuate. donald trump is sentenced in his new york hush money case. he avoids jail but he'll become the first us president to serve as a convicted felon. and — the us supreme court appears poised to uphold a looming us ban on tiktok. hello, i'm carl nasman. firefighters are still battling to contain wildfires which have been raging across los angeles for four days. let's show you the latest pictures from the city. forecasters say more high winds are expected in the coming days, which could stoke an already perilous situation. at least 11 people are now known to have died and about 10,000 homes and buildings are either destroyed, damaged or at risk.

a night—time curfew is in effect in the worst—affected