we'll have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. today, i'm in tuscany, italy, at the home of one of the world's most famous photographers, oliviero toscani. now, you may not be familiar with his name, but you've almost certainly seen at least some of his work. for decades, he's photographed fashion and famous faces, but he's perhaps best known for his extraordinary advertising campaigns where he's used images, provocative images of sexuality, illness

and death to promote brands, but also to get all of us to confront uncomfortable truths. he has combined glamour with a social conscience, but has he sometimes gone too far? oliviero toscani, welcome to hardtalk, and thank you for inviting me into your home. i must begin by asking, how are you? because we know that you've been struggling with illness. lately, not so good. lately... you know, i belong to a generation that's forever young. yes! and then, it was like that until two days before i got to 80. i was working like before. then you got up in the

morning, and you are 80. and suddenly you felt your age. yeah. let's begin by going back in time. when do you think, as a boy, as a young man, when did you first understand the power of photography? well, my father used to be a photographer for the corriere della sera. the big italian newspaper. at that time, there wasn't any television. and of course, it was during the regime, the fascist regime. mussolini was still alive. yeah. and in italy, the photography was conditioned by that. but my father had a relation with, ithink, keystone in london, and he used to send pictures that normally would have been censored here. and he had a relation with that

british photo agency. news agency, yeah. yeah. and then now he started to be a photographer, you know, because they asked him, they wanted to have documents from italy. so he did a lot of pictures for them. did yourfather give you yourfirst camera? yeah. it wasn't kind of...property... ..the camera were laying around the house. just everywhere. yeah. i wasn't impressed by the camera. you know, i have to tell you that... ..i went to art school and ifinished in 1965. i also passed by the royal college of art for a semester. in london. yeah. and then i realised that

photography was changing. there wasn't any more reportage. cartier—bresson, the magazine were closing. a lifetime. television was there. right. so i said, yeah, we have to do something else with photography. and in the meantime, they started to be interesting. the glossy paper like vogue, i think, and fashion magazine and design magazine. and of course, this period is the 1960s. the late 1960s. they called them the swinging �*60s. when music, art, culture... i was there. ..was changing so rapidly. and you were part of that. now, there was a moment

of euphoria about... new possibilities. yeah. new life, new vision. and of course, we had the sense of future. now there isn't any sense of future. and when you think of future, we get afraid. but it strikes me there was something a little different about you. because although you were mixing with celebrities, with mickjagger and all the most famous musicians, all of the fashion models in paris and milano and london, seduced just by celebrity and fame. you wanted something else. yeah, you know, itell you, i was telling you that for me, photography is a media.

it's not that i am a photographer because i like black and white picture. you know, i'm not an artist. i think photography is a media, is a sociopolitical action. and that's the way i always try to use it. also, when i did pictures of, you know, fashion or advertising, every picture has got a political message. every one. even a postcard. see, what interests me about you is that i think from a young age, you were very political. and i think it's fair to say you were of the left. you know, you had strong opinions. uh-huh. and yet you entered the world of advertising, which is the most capitalistic form of communication.

advertising is... it doesn't really touch me. i never actually did advertising. that's the point. but you were paid a lot of money by some of the biggest brands and businesses in the world. i never need advertise the products. no, never. i refused. so, let's talk about benetton. because you had a very long relationship with benetton. hejust called me. really? yeah. so for decades and decades, you have worked with benetton. at the very beginning of the relationship when they said, "you know what, oliviero, "we love your work. "we want you to be our creative director," did you say to them, "ok, but i refuse to actually use "photographs of your clothes, "i want to do it different"? did you say that to them?

benetton never spoke like we... he said... we spoke... no, he never asked me for anything special. i always proposed something. and he said, "this is the right way to do it." you know, when... you mean that the company always supported you? no, the company was my biggest enemy. all the manager was... they hated me. so who was your big supporter there? luciano benetton. just mr benetton himself. yeah. very interesting, huh? and you know, when i did propose whatever, everything was shocking. when i told luciano, do you think the young people are more interested in a sweater or in ideas?

you were in control. you could say to them, "i'm going to build you a campaign, but i'm not "going to show a single piece of clothing." and let's talk about some of the pictures. you know, you would use deeply controversial images. you know, you would address the issues of racial diversity, you would address issues connected to illnesses like hiv/aids. one very famous image is of a man who is desperately ill, dying from hiv/aids. it's not a picture that you took, but you... ..you adapted it a little bit and you used it in a benetton advertisement. to most people, it's an image that is... ..it�*s very sad. it's deeply depressing. and these are not emotions that one associates with advertising. i mean, how does it work? how do you believe it works, that that helps...

what does? i associate with advertising stupidity. glamorous girls, richness, big car, success, all that. but that is not the world. this is... this is just lies that is told to the public to make them... ..make them stupid as the advertising people are. so your motivation, i guess, was to make people look directly at the world as it is, with all of its problems. i realised that so much money was invested in advertising that... for what?

do you remember any big advertising of that time? but you remember mine, right? everybody... everybody remembers yours. even the ones who hated it. that's very true. how come? what's your answer to that — how come? why? because i did involve them in the.... ..in something they were not so used to be. er, you know, the pages in magazines used for advertising, for me, they were information, first of all. you know, like, because it's not that you go, you see something, you go and buy it. no. you see something and... ..and you get an idea. you had particular targets that you mocked with your messaging,

your communication. one of your targets was the catholic church. i mean, basically, religion generally. i well remember one of your big posters which featured a priest kissing a nun. yeah. stephen scoffs. you live in italy. you are italian. you know the nature of the church here. that's why i can speak about that. were you deliberately trying to provoke them? no. you know... ..i don't find provocation a bad thing. imean... ..the art, if it doesn't provoke... ..is illusory. is... ..not...

has got no sense. when you think, really big art always did provoke something, did provoke a reaction. did provoke a discussion. art has to provoke interest. some people watching and listening to our conversation might think to themselves, "well, in the end, mr toscani allowed himself "to be used by benetton." because, in the end, whatever your desire, to send a political message in your advertising, the bottom line is you were selling product for benetton and you were very successful. i mean, these ad campaigns, as you say, they are remembered even today.

benetton sold an awful lot of clothing thanks to you. so do you believe benetton was using you or were you using benetton? well, i think i used benetton. really, at the end, yes, because i did something that was never made before. luciano had the courage to do it. luciano benetton? si. i never saw that before made by an entrepreneur. they are all afraid to lose their money. yeah. they're afraid not to make enough income. they will speak about money. we never spoke about money with luciano. never. do you ever think that, in your desire to confront the most difficult subjects and to get people to think in a political way, do you ever think you went too far?

i'm thinking, for example, of one particular advertisement. it was not for benetton. it was for another fashion business. anorexic? well, i'm thinking of the... i think it was in 2007, your big poster using the anorexic young woman. uh... and the title on the advertisement was "no anorexia". but the fact is, that was an advertisement for a fashion business. but it did help a lot of girls who were anorexic at the end. did it really? yes. it upset an awful lot of people who believed that you were exploiting a human being in a very vulnerable position. you can't please everybody. if you please everybody, you don't please nobody. if everybody likes what you do, that means that they've got no interest. no interest.

so you should be unpopular sometimes. that young woman, she died a couple of years after the advertisement. right. i just wonder whether that made you feel... ..in any way regret for having used her in that advertising campaign. well, i could have used another 20 girls like that. i mean, that was not... the last thing i want it to be is that girl has a name. now, if i would redo that picture, i would put a mask. would you? yeah. because it's not a question of... ..of a name of a person, especially now. itjust...it takes a certain

kind of humanity... ..who...the disaster of... ..anorexia. as you reflect on this career, and we've talked a lot about advertising, do you regard yourself as an artist? no, i think i am a photographer, that i use photography to express what i think should be said. you once said — i read this in an interview you gave many years ago — you said, "photography is powerful. "sometimes it is more powerful than armies." but surely your life, your commitment to sending messages with pictures says the opposite. because you've sent these messages about racial diversity, about confronting illness and death with compassion, and many human

beings are not listening. you haven't changed people's minds and behaviour. well, you can say... now, for example, with the sickness, i had a lot of people that i don't even remember who they are or that i never metjust like that, and they thanked me for what i did. really? yeah. a lot. i didn't have bad... ..email or anything like that. i was very impressed about that. but just think about your own country, italy. for all of your messages about the importance of looking beyond people's skin colour, the country today is run by

a government which is committed to a very tough policy on migration and immigrants. fascist. fascist government. totally. well, of course, they would deny they are fascists. i call it fascist because it is a fascist. do you feel deeply disappointed with italy and the way it has changed in your lifetime? well, of course, but it's not finished. i still hope for the future. i still hope that it will be changing. and i think there are... ..there are the possibility to change it. at the beginning of the interview, i asked you about your early years in photography, and you talked about the �*60s and about that optimism and the energy and the possibilities for change. do you feel as optimistic and as open to the possibilities

for change today? well, not in the same way, but... ..i'm still living, thinking, hoping that tomorrow is better than today. mm. that's it. but what to do? i'm not one of those that is crying on the destiny. your own destiny or the destiny of the country or the destiny — no. we have to be understanding and... ..we have to...to be there. we have to learn what was going on. we have to learn... we have to learn how to answer to certain things that

sometimes they are new, that we are not... ..we are not prepared to deal with. no, i am not afraid. now, mrtoscani, in your entire career, you have always looked directly at human beings as they are, and you have been very honest in recent months about your own situation, because doctors have told you your illness is terminal. they cannot cure you. life is terminal. stephen chuckles. life is terminal! tell me, because you've been so open and honest with people, tell me how you are feeling today about looking with that steady eye at death. well... ..i shouldn't be complaining

because i had an incredible life, for a long time, and i was never sick of anything like that. everything came suddenly one day. one day i wasn't any more forever young. mm. and...i'm not afraid. that's how it is. there are people... ..who left much earlier than my age, so... ..i accept my destiny. and then i must say that i was lucky enough for not complaining. i had a good life. i. . .i travelled all over the world. i met interesting people. i had a really incredible life.

it's true. if there is. . . if there's one image, or maybe a couple of images, that you look back on that you took, you captured, that feel most important to you or express your feelings the best, what would they be? i never thought about that. probably... ..the picture of the hand with the rice. because it's so primary. i like when everything is away. i take away. i don't like baroque. keep it as simple as possible. not simple. complex, but... there's a simple, but it's not simple to make complex picture. i understand, yeah. yeah.

to be able to take away, take away, take away, take away. to make a picture that everybody will say, "i could have done it." yes, but you didn't. laughter. well, we have to end there. but, 0liviero toscani, it has been a pleasure to talk to you. thank you very much indeed. thank you. hello. we had really big contrasts in weather across the uk on monday. in highland, scotland, here in plockton, there was a lot of cloud, outbreaks of rain, but it was very mild.

and just along the road from here, we had temperatures up to 14 degrees in achnagart. so a real contrast then to the 3 celsisus that was recorded in fylingdales in north yorkshire. the reason for this? well, the cold air that we had last week hasn't entirely gone away from eastern areas, and the winds were blowing over the snow covered north york moors, keeping those temperatures well suppressed in our coldest parts. now, over the next few hours, there's a little bit of rain to come across parts of southern scotland, northern ireland into northern england, the north midlands and north wales as well. for most, it's going to be a mild start to the day on tuesday, but you mightjust see an odd nip of frost if we keep those skies clearest long enough over the next few hours. now, next few days, high pressure dominates our weather picture, and the high pressure is going to be feeding in a lot of mild air, often with these south—westerly winds. so temperatures will be running above average for most areas over the next few days. quite a spell of weather then coming up for most, but there will be some rain around to start the day across north west england, the north midlands and

across western wales. a damp start to the to the day here. there will be some breaks in the cloud. northern and eastern scotland looking pretty good for some sunshine. and those sunnier skies should push into north—east england as the day goes by. a few breaks as well quite likely across parts of the south—east. high pressure then stays with us as we head towards the middle part of the week. and as that high pressure becomes more centred over england and wales, the winds start to fall light, and that's a recipe for some fog to develop as we head into wednesday morning. and some of that fog will be with us all day. where that happens, yes, it could be quite cool, but for most of the uk, should see some bright or sunny spells coming through, a bit of rain from another weather frontjust edges into the far north—west of scotland. heading into thursday, again, we could see a few mist and fog patches around. the feed of south—westerly winds, continuing to bring in some pretty mild weather. most of us should stay dry with some sunshine at times. and our temperatures above average for the time of year, typically between around 8—10 celsius. this relatively quiet spell of weather then lasts for most of us through the rest of this week and into the weekend,

but then we've got another weather front bringing some rain to western areas as we head into sunday. bye for now.

live from washington, this is bbc news. the fire threat level for all of los angeles county is critical, as officials fear

strong winds in the next few days could spark new fires. us presidentjoe biden says israel and hamas are on the brink of a ceasefire deal in gaza. and sir keir starmer unveils his plan to boost growth, by making the uk an ai superpower. iam i am caitriona perry. you're very welcome. nearly all public schools across the los angeles area have reopened after almost a week of wildfires. but the city is bracing for further blazes with forecasters warning that strong winds are set to return. the strongest winds are expected to be on tuesday, in ventura county, north of la. while they're not expected to match last week's intensity, wind gusts could reach 70 miles per hour, about the force of a categoryi hurricane. three major fires are still burning. the palisades fire has burned more than 23,000 acres

and is now 14% contained.