welcome to our viewers on bbc news, such an important conversation this morning. it is really upsetting and depressing, but it is something we need to hear from you depressing, but it is something we need to hearfrom you on depressing, but it is something we need to hear from you on as well. we are all in this one together. well tougher knife checks work? there are more calls today for action on knife crime.

shocking news, a 12—year—old boy stabbed to death in birmingham yesterday, a 14—year—old has been arrested. we read those words, the broadcasters and journalists. he had a history of violence, she said it was a total disgrace that he was able to buy a weapon online stocky stop he bought an iphone amazon.

the government is promising new laws. retailers and

church of england schools and every week we were kept in school because the knuckle duster is would gather at the bottom of our gates, every week. the thing is, we did all get on well outside school. it was just purely because we were all brought up with kindness. i met a person from the usa recently and she said she went to japan and recently and she said she went tojapan and she recently and she said she went to japan and she said recently and she said she went tojapan and she said it recently and she said she went to japan and she said it was a five—year—old walking to school and i did the same. why is that? it is the community working with the government, the state, it is working together to look after everybody from birth until death. ., ~ ,

death. some of the kids involved _ death. some of the kids involved in _ death. some of the kids involved in this - death. some of the kids involved in this seem i death. some of the kids involved in this seem to j death. some of the kids i involved in this seem to be kind of empathy free zones, they seem to be emotionally cauterised and they don't understand the consequences of their actions. understand the consequences of theiractions. it understand the consequences of their actions. it is of dead to them. victoria, you might be able to tell us why, you worked in further education. why have we come to this, victoria? it is heartbreaking, it is baffling. there is so much emphasis put on ego and things like that — emphasis put on ego and things like that. it is notjust boys, it is— like that. it is notjust boys, it is also_ like that. it is notjust boys, it is also girls. like that. it is not “ust boys, it is also girls._ like that. it is not “ust boys, it is also girlsfi if - it is also girls. status. if ou it is also girls. status. if you disrespect - it is also girls. status. if you disrespect me - it is also girls. status. if you disrespect me in - it is also girls. status. if you disrespect me in a l it is also girls. status. if - you disrespect me in a certain way — you disrespect me in a certain way i— you disrespect me in a certain way i have _ you disrespect me in a certain way. i have had young people of 17, 18, _ way. i have had young people of 17, 18, 19, — way. i have had young people of 17, 18, 19, telling me as a teacher_ 17, 18, 19, telling me as a teacher i_ 17, 18, 19, telling me as a teacher i am disrespecting them because —

teacher i am disrespecting them because i— teacher i am disrespecting them because i have corrected their work — because i have corrected their work. that is myjob! you are here — work. that is myjob! you are here to — work. that is myjob! you are here to learn things and what you have _ here to learn things and what you have written is not the right — you have written is not the right thing because it is not what — right thing because it is not what you _ right thing because it is not what you should have written. it what you should have written. it is _ what you should have written. it is a — what you should have written. it is a personal affront. i have _ it is a personal affront. i have had _ it is a personal affront. i have had people slam out of my classroom — have had people slam out of my classroom and push things over because — classroom and push things over because they are personally affronted to be corrected, particularly if you do it withih_ particularly if you do it within the classroom. it starts as a cultural— within the classroom. it starts as a cultural meme _ within the classroom. it starts as a cultural meme and - within the classroom. it starts as a cultural meme and then i within the classroom. it starts i as a cultural meme and then the attitude spreads like wildfire. i want to pick up... hang on, i want to pick up, my apologies, we have gotjust a couple of moments, i want to pick up with the shocking news which i was talking about and you have been hearing about and reading about. phil mackie, our reporter is in birmingham. phil, it is difficult to say, it is difficult to conceive. a

14—year—old boy arrested on suspicion of murdering a 12 year what happened? we don't know, year what happened? we don't know. this _ year what happened? we don't know, this happened _ year what happened? we don't know, this happened around i know, this happened around three o'clock yesterday afternoon. what police often tell me it is one of those particularly dangerous times of the day for young teenagers and young children. that is an awful thing to say, isn't it? in those hours between leaving and getting home knife crime, particularly for that age group, is at its highest. a 12—year—old losing their life like this is utterly shocking but i think from what we have seenin but i think from what we have seen in recent years, nikki, it is not as shocking as it might once have been because we know knife crime statistics have been going up and the west midlands had the highest rate of knife crime last year. we have seen other terrible crimes around here. we don't know much about what happened here last

night. i know the park, which i am standing next to, is often frequented by teenagers after school. just speaking to a lady who lives here she said there is a lot of anti—social behaviour, low level of criminality, drug—taking, that kind of thing goes on. she complains that used to have a park ranger who they were very fond of and they have been lost and that is part of the council cuts. also they say they don't get the police patrols they say they would like to see here. it is probably not an uncommon picture if you think about this kind of public area in other cities in the uk at the moment. but the tragedy is for some reason it last night a 12—year—old has lost his life and a 14—year—old is in custody having been arrested on suspicion.— having been arrested on suspicion. having been arrested on susicion. . ~ , . suspicion. thank you very much, we “ust suspicion. thank you very much, we just lost _ suspicion. thank you very much, we just lost the _ suspicion. thank you very much, we just lost the line _ suspicion. thank you very much, we just lost the line but - suspicion. thank you very much, we just lost the line but we - we just lost the line but we got most of it, fill. thank you for reporting there from birmingham on the arrest of a ao—year—old for stabbing a 12

year phil was talking about the depressing frequency of incidents like this and it is easy not to be shocked because you kind of go there is another one. we need to be shocked, we need to be outraged every time we hear about this. dean, how do you feel as a dad?- do you feel as a dad? dean in birmingham. _ do you feel as a dad? dean in birmingham. i— do you feel as a dad? dean in birmingham. i would - do you feel as a dad? dean in birmingham. i would just - do you feel as a dad? dean in birmingham. i would just like j birmingham. i would just like to give — birmingham. i would just like to give my condolences for the family— to give my condolences for the family of— to give my condolences for the family of course, but here we are agaih _ family of course, but here we are again. i am telling you now, — are again. i am telling you now, nicky, we have lost the battle — now, nicky, we have lost the battle completely and we are not going to get it back. this means— not going to get it back. this means where i live a few miles away _ means where i live a few miles away they— means where i live a few miles away they are hiding the knives in bags— away they are hiding the knives in bags outside schools and colleges. i will tell you about my son — colleges. i will tell you about my son who is 16. i knew when i allowed — my son who is 16. i knew when i allowed him to play for a night there — allowed him to play for a night there was a problem because i

saw how— there was a problem because i saw how he was reacting and i saw _ saw how he was reacting and i saw how — saw how he was reacting and i saw how his behaviour was. sol had a _ saw how his behaviour was. sol had a chat— saw how his behaviour was. sol had a chat with mum and i said we need — had a chat with mum and i said we need to— had a chat with mum and i said we need to take him off it because _ we need to take him off it because i can see a change in him — because i can see a change in him you _ because i can see a change in him. you can see the change at this young _ him. you can see the change at this young age. sol him. you can see the change at this young age. so i took him off it. — this young age. so i took him off it, nicky. what happened two weeks later, nicky? he admitted to me, dad, it was becoming a problem. therefore, as a parent, mum and dad, we have— as a parent, mum and dad, we have done _ as a parent, mum and dad, we have done ourjob to protect him — have done ourjob to protect him so — have done ourjob to protect him so he _ have done ourjob to protect him so he isn't going to get any— him so he isn't going to get any worse. that is my first point _ any worse. that is my first point. now he is fantastic. second _ point. now he is fantastic. second point, he had a bad time at college — second point, he had a bad time at college last year and lost a lot of— at college last year and lost a lot of time and got a girlfriend, the first one. all of a — girlfriend, the first one. all of a sudden we get a phone call from _ of a sudden we get a phone call from the — of a sudden we get a phone call from the college that they need to call— from the college that they need to call us— from the college that they need to call us at a certain time and— to call us at a certain time and they— to call us at a certain time and they turn around and say that— and they turn around and say that lewis has got mental health— that lewis has got mental health issues. that is a strong word, — health issues. that is a strong word, nicky. straightaway they

called — word, nicky. straightaway they called him that. i was crying and — called him that. i was crying and my— called him that. i was crying and my partner was crying and lewis— and my partner was crying and lewis was— and my partner was crying and lewis was crying when i took him — lewis was crying when i took him off— lewis was crying when i took him off the bus. if you saw how he is _ him off the bus. if you saw how he is how— him off the bus. if you saw how he is now after we have coached him through as a family, when he split— him through as a family, when he split up— him through as a family, when he split up with his girlfriend the first— he split up with his girlfriend the first thing i said to him as a — the first thing i said to him as a father, bearing in mind that— as a father, bearing in mind that tad _ as a father, bearing in mind that tad a _ as a father, bearing in mind that lad a few weeks ago who killed — that lad a few weeks ago who killed the schoolgirl at the bus stop, the boyfriend, the first— bus stop, the boyfriend, the first thing i said to lewis, doh't _ first thing i said to lewis, don't be _ first thing i said to lewis, don't be texting her, don't be sending — don't be texting her, don't be sending any messages or anything like that, son. he turned _ anything like that, son. he turned around and said that, i won't — turned around and said that, i won't it— turned around and said that, i won't it is— turned around and said that, i won't. it is good parenting agaih _ won't. it is good parenting agaih if_ won't. it is good parenting again. if you saw lewis and now today— again. if you saw lewis and now today he — again. if you saw lewis and now today he is _ again. if you saw lewis and now today he is the most happiest, tovetiest — today he is the most happiest, loveliest lad he would ever want — loveliest lad he would ever want to _ loveliest lad he would ever want to meet. he is getting up at five — want to meet. he is getting up at five o'clock, eating his porridge, studying, reading books — porridge, studying, reading books and this and that and the other~ — books and this and that and the other~ this— books and this and that and the other. this is parenting. the problem _ other. this is parenting. the problem is these lads out there have _ problem is these lads out there have got— problem is these lads out there have got no dads behind them... we have — have got no dads behind them... we have lost it, mate. the

southport _ we have lost it, mate. the southport killer _ we have lost it, mate. the southport killer had - we have lost it, mate. the southport killer had a - we have lost it, mate. tie: southport killer had a mother and father. i southport killer had a mother and father-— southport killer had a mother and father. ., ., ~ ., ., and father. i want to know how much input _ and father. i want to know how much input as _ and father. i want to know how much input as parents - and father. i want to know how much input as parents they - and father. i want to know howj much input as parents they put in with— much input as parents they put in with this child who had these _ in with this child who had these problems. if that was me i these problems. if that was me iwoutd — these problems. if that was me i would be dragging him everywhere to get it sorted. how — everywhere to get it sorted. how much you really do know about — how much you really do know about the _ how much you really do know about the effort they put into it? we — about the effort they put into it? we don't know that. there is a _ it? we don't know that. there is a catalogue of things he has done — is a catalogue of things he has done i— is a catalogue of things he has done. , ., ., , ., done. i tell you what, dean, we have not done. i tell you what, dean, we have got a _ done. i tell you what, dean, we have got a criminologist, - done. i tell you what, dean, we have got a criminologist, which| have got a criminologist, which is a perfect follow—up to your call. professor ian brennan, professor of criminology at the university of hull. good morning. let me ask you a straight question. as a criminologist, the horror of this, why are children killing each other? i this, why are children killing each other?— each other? i have spent so lona each other? i have spent so long thinking _ each other? i have spent so long thinking about - each other? i have spent so long thinking about this. . each other? i have spent so long thinking about this. i l long thinking about this. i think we have to think about the child who was involved in

violence as the consequence of multiple failures probably across their lives. the violence in ten years and the five and six—year—olds today who are exposed to things they should never be exposed to and things that are available to them and the services that should provide the support and itjust should provide the support and it just echoes should provide the support and itjust echoes down through their lives. the education system as well, again there is under provision. so when young people commit knife crime and even murder it is pretty rare it has come from nowhere. there is often a trail of being let down, a trait of deprivation

and they can be pretty closely mapped and explained why they