unimaginable when this charge was at law school. the unimaginable when this charge was at law school.— was at law school. the “udge made clear fl was at law school. the “udge made clear that i was at law school. the “udge made clear that he h was at law school. the judge made clear that he couldn't. made clear that he couldn't impose a whole life term but he made it clear that he didn't expect that rudakubana would ever be free. it expect that rudakubana would ever be free.— ever be free. it is interesting the way he — ever be free. it is interesting the way he put _ ever be free. it is interesting the way he put it _ ever be free. it is interesting the way he put it because . ever be free. it is interesting the way he put it because it. the way he put it because it was made clear to him by the prosecution that they did not consider him as a terrorism offence, which sometimes gets an uplift in terms of sentencing. there has been discussion over that in the last few months. but because he didn't seem to have an ideology, he wasn't doing it for a political, religious, ideology, he wasn't doing it fora political, religious, or racial cause. he seemed to be doing it because he was obsessed with causing as much mayhem and terror as possible but not within a terrorism context. thejudge but not within a terrorism context. the judge said but not within a terrorism context. thejudge said i am not treating as terrorism but i consider it as bad as that. essentially he was giving it an uplift because of that. what

qualifies you for a whole life order are things like killing children, killing more than one person, axel rudakubana has killed both children and more than one of them. in any other context we will be looking at whole life order. the judge context we will be looking at whole life order. thejudge is essentially passing life sentence which he says he thinks it means that rudakubana won't ever be released. when he qualifies for the parole board, thatis qualifies for the parole board, that is only the first time he can be considered for release and he may well have died by then because people don't live for a long time in prison. the parole board also may well not consider him for release at that time. what the judge said today will be considered in 52 years' time so the parole board can look at that.— years' time so the parole board can look at that. when you were talkin: can look at that. when you were talking about — can look at that. when you were talking about the _ can look at that. when you were talking about the terror - talking about the terror charges, it seems like a good time to bring in a statement by

the chief prosecutorfor time to bring in a statement by the chief prosecutor for mersey and cheshire and she was asked why the cps decided to delay the decision to charge him over the decision to charge him over the production of ricin and the possession of an al-qaeda training manual. in possession of an al-qaeda training manual.— possession of an al-qaeda training manual. in terms of the discovery _ training manual. in terms of the discovery of— training manual. in terms of the discovery of ricin - training manual. in terms of the discovery of ricin at - training manual. in terms of the discovery of ricin at his i the discovery of ricin at his home and a document that fell within terrorism legislation, the al-qaeda training manual, why did the cps delay the decision to charge and announce that? ~ �* _ that? we didn't delay the decision _ that? we didn't delay the decision to _ that? we didn't delay the decision to charge, - that? we didn't delay thei decision to charge, whilst that? we didn't delay the - decision to charge, whilst the police — decision to charge, whilst the police made that discovery fairly— police made that discovery fairly early on, as a prosecution, we have to have that— prosecution, we have to have that material in an evidential format _ that material in an evidential format. we have to have a file from _ format. we have to have a file from the — format. we have to have a file from the police, which contains evidence — from the police, which contains evidence in a certain format which — evidence in a certain format which we _ evidence in a certain format which we can serve on the court and the — which we can serve on the court and the defence. given the complexities of the case and the requirements for expert evidence, to be obtained, that

took_ evidence, to be obtained, that took some time to present to the cps _ took some time to present to the cps. once we had that information, we had to review it and — information, we had to review it and the _ information, we had to review it and the defendant also had to he — it and the defendant also had to be interviewed about that discovery, which all took place towards — discovery, which all took place towards the end of september. thereafter there are some internal _ thereafter there are some internal processes we have to id internal processes we have to go through and again, we want to make — go through and again, we want to make sure that the families are at— to make sure that the families are at the _ to make sure that the families are at the heart of this and we needed — are at the heart of this and we needed to— are at the heart of this and we needed to make sure they were given— needed to make sure they were given information about the developments in the case as welt — developments in the case as well. clearly the discovery of those — well. clearly the discovery of those pieces of evidence. were made early _ those pieces of evidence. were made early in _ those pieces of evidence. were made early in the _ made early in the investigation, some people might think that making it public that ricin had been found in a house in southport were something that the public should have been told. was there a decision not to make there a decision not to make the public because of the

writing or was it something to do with whether or not this would be dealt with as a separate trial? why not say anything about it early on? the decisions about _ anything about it early on? the decisions about public safety are not— decisions about public safety are not for the cps to make. from — are not for the cps to make. from our— are not for the cps to make. from our perspective, until we had eight — from our perspective, until we had sight of that evidence, we couldn't— had sight of that evidence, we couldn't be sure we would be authorising any charges. it has been suggested _ authorising any charges. it has been suggested that _ authorising any charges. it has been suggested that even - authorising any charges. it has| been suggested that even once every decision had been made, there was a delay of a week, that they would have been an announcement but that was pushed back and that was a decision made by the cps. there are internal— decision made by the cps. there are internal processes _ decision made by the cps. there are internal processes we - decision made by the cps. there are internal processes we have l are internal processes we have to follow _ are internal processes we have to follow. the possession of the document that contained excerpts from the al-anda training _ excerpts from the al-anda training manual is a charge that— training manual is a charge that leads consent from the law offices — that leads consent from the law offices. the cps has to prepare the documentation and it has to be considered by the law officers. that would add in

those _ officers. that would add in those extra days before we could — those extra days before we could make that charging decision.— decision. did you give consideration - decision. did you give consideration in - decision. did you give consideration in the i decision. did you give - consideration in the summer to deciding that there was a greater public interest in trying to quell some of the disinformation that was whipping up the violence that we were seeing in towns and cities all over. merseyside police have said that they repeatedly wanted to, requested permission to put more information out there, to try to quell some of the disinformation but their advice from the cps was, no you can't. those disorders happen very quickly— those disorders happen very quickly after the initial charge, within two or three days — charge, within two or three days i_ charge, within two or three days. i was not party to any of those — days. i was not party to any of those conversations about what could _ those conversations about what could on — those conversations about what could on could not be released. at the _ could on could not be released. at the point of charge. the defendant was 17 years of age

and there were legal prohibitions on releasing details _ prohibitions on releasing details that might identify him until— details that might identify him until that reporting restriction was removed by the court — restriction was removed by the court. ., , ., ., court. the riots were ongoing and the judge _ court. the riots were ongoing and the judge who _ court. the riots were ongoing and the judge who dealt - court. the riots were ongoing and the judge who dealt with | and the judge who dealt with him credits to the judge said, in order to quell this information, he would allow rudakubana to be named. yet the cps continued to not put information out there. the suggestion that has been made is that, had there been more information, the riots might have been stopped or might have been brought to an end earlier, would you accept that? i am not sure what _ would you accept that? i am not sure what information _ would you accept that? i am not sure what information could - sure what information could have — sure what information could have been released that would have _ have been released that would have impacted on that. the investigation and the prosecution was in the very early— prosecution was in the very early stages and we worked very closely _ early stages and we worked very closely with the police to build _ closely with the police to build that case together. the cps always strives to be transparent and open and give as much— transparent and open and give as much information as we

could _ as much information as we could. ., _ ,, as much information as we could. ., ,, , , could. you say the cps strives to be transparent _ could. you say the cps strives to be transparent and - could. you say the cps strives to be transparent and open i could. you say the cps strives | to be transparent and open but hours after he had pleaded guilty, meaning there was no trial that could be prejudiced, the cps sent out a note to journalists saying that background information should not be reported because it could prejudice the sentencing. that doesn't make sense. when the case was — that doesn't make sense. when the case was before _ that doesn't make sense. when the case was before course, - that doesn't make sense. when the case was before course, thei the case was before course, the court _ the case was before course, the court may— the case was before course, the court may decision to adjourn the case _ court may decision to adjourn the case without hearing that material _ the case without hearing that material in court. it is only right— material in court. it is only right that _ material in court. it is only right that the material should be heard in court first. and that— be heard in court first. and that the _ be heard in court first. and that the family and the victims had the — that the family and the victims had the opportunity to hear it. that— had the opportunity to hear it. that was— had the opportunity to hear it. that was the chief crown prosecutor for mersey and cheshire. you join us again at liverpool crown court where the

killer of three young girls in the southport knife attack last year has just been sentenced. he was sentenced to a minimum term of 52 years. you can probablyjust term of 52 years. you can probably just about make term of 52 years. you can probablyjust about make out behind me that there are cameras set up stop we are expecting to hear from the senior investigating officer at some point and while we wait for that, let's bring in daniel sanford to talk a little more about the harrowing evidence that we heard today and particularly those victim impact statements. tote particularly those victim impact statements. we had lots of victim impact _ impact statements. we had lots of victim impact statements, i of victim impact statements, some of them incredibly significant because they were from the parents of the girls who died. but the one that really stood out today was the moment when we went away from the court briefly to a video feed from a room in the court building where a 14—year—old girl sitting building where a 14—year—old girlsitting in an building where a 14—year—old girl sitting in an armchair, a 14—year—old who was 13 at the

time of the attack and had gone to the dance studio that day to help take pictures of the girls taking part in the event. i will radio a bit of what she told live by video link into the court today. she was addressing axel rudakubana. the beginning of my nightmare started when i saw you. i thought you were playing a joke. i saw you and your green hoodie and facemask. what i remember most about you is your eyes, you looked possessed and you didn't look human. i watched you stab someone and then i sew you coming for me. it was like slow motion. you stabbed me in the arm and instinctively i turned and that is when you continue to stab me in the back, although i didn't feel it at the time. all i could hear was the screams. i was so scared of what you were doing and i was in a blind panic. then she describes how she ran out when i got a group

of girls huddled and rushed them down the stairs. she said she was physically pushing them down the stairs to get them away from axel rudakubana. she said, i knew i was running for my life. it was the most extraordinary moment. she described how she is struggling psychologically, she struggles to concentrate in lessons, she still has scars from the injuries. how she and her sister when injuries. how she and her sis